Driving on Private Property
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Date: Wed, 14 May 97 08:34:34 -0500
From: Scott
Subject: 4x fun
To: Toy 4x4
In a message dated 97-05-14 02:29:45 EDT, you write:
> Today I went out for a little 4x/fishing trip w/ my friend. I turned off
> the highway onto some power lines, but to make a long story short I had
> to tresspass on private property to get to the river. ( the river is
> public) I am wondering what the feelings towards this type of
> tresspassing are from those of you on the list. I do not like to
> tresspass but there are not too many areas in my neck of the woods where
> 4 wheeling is legal. All in all we did not leave any trace that we were
> even there except maybe some tire tracks and a 1 less fish in the
> river(an 18"brown trout-- too nice to release). I know that some- mqaybe
> all of you may not approve but what is the harm in using a road that was
> already their to access a public area?
>
> Matt Chapin
Matt,
I don't know where you are, but we have alot of public land out west and in
my job we deal with both public land agencies and private land owners. When
dealing with Federal and state land, it is illegal for a private land owner
to block access to public land. In other words if a road connecting two
pieces of public land crosses private land, the land owner cannot put a
locked gate across that road if it is the only access route. On the other
hand, if there is another route in, the owner can force you to take the long
way around.
The other thing you should know if you were following a poweline: I'm
assuming there was a two-track road next to the powerline and that land
essentially belongs to the power company. When a powerline or pipeline is
built, the owner of that line buys a right-of-way which they control and use
for maintenence, etc. Usually, in the case of a powerline, the right-of-way
is temporary but the power company retains an "easement".
Like I said, I'm familiar with land management issues in the west only so
YMMV. You might call the Feds or the State, whoever manages that public land
and ask them for the specifics in your area.
I hope this helps.
- -Scott
- --
Scott Wilcox
swilcox@sprynet.com
Four Corners, USA
TLCA #4542
=============================
Work Sucks, I'm Goin' Wheelin
=============================
'86 Toy 4x4 Std. Cab
'85 Toy 4x4 Xtra Cab
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:50:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: 4x fun
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I know it is different in other parts of the country, but it is like that
here, Matt. There are almost not public areas, and almost everything we ride
on is private. I have a real problem with riding on other people's land. I
say it is a definate NO if it is posted. I feel that if there is a road, use
it. That does not mean tear it up or abuse it. It the landowner comes up to
you and says something, apologise. I have had this happen, and after I had a
nice latalk with the owner, it turns out he doesn't mind if I drive there
after all. Sometimes, they say to leave. You just say I am sorry, and turn
right around - nothing else you can do. people around here usually post the
land of they don't want people using it, otherwise, there usually is not a
problem. If it looks at all questionable, like they have tried to block the
road in some way, forget it. Better safe than sorry.
David
DRM033@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 14 May 97 11:37:00 -0500
From: Rosenberger Bud
Subject: 4x fun
To: "mail@UUCP {Toy4x4@tlca.org}"
I have a farm and perhaps can comment from a different perspective. I
love to go wheeling and have ridden on more than my share of private
land. The absolute biggest thing is to ASK PERMISSION!!!!! I have never
refused anyone who has asked and None of my neighbors do either. I've
made some good friends this way and have joined in on the fun with them.
Most land is posted because of people just driving all over your land
without permission. I feel that if someone is considerate enough to ask,
they won't trash the place, knock down fencing, tear up pastures, scare
my animals and leave 3 weeks worth of garbage strewn over your land.
Think about the land owner...he bought the land, he pays the taxes, he
does the maintainence, he fixes the ruts, he'll be the one you ask to
pull you out when you get stuck, and on top of all that, he takes the
risk that you will do something stupid, get hurt and sue HIM!!! Now I
know that no one on this list would ever consider doing any of the above
mentioned naughtiness, but what do I do about all the other yahoos that
are clueless out there???? And what if one of you was wheeling on my
land, and did get killed (God forbid) Would your bereaving spouse say
"Oh, I'm sure it was my dead husband's fault."??? I doubt it. She'd sue
me for all she could get and take my Toyotas to boot!
I know this isn't painting a good picture, but we should all keep it in
mind. If I listened to my advice, I'd NEVER let somebody on my property!
But I do...
Another note: Posting land is now being used to protect from liability
suits. You can ALWAYS ASK and most times get permission. It's just
common courtesy. If you do get caught on posted land without permission,
at least in New York, you go to jail for 30 days minimum! And if you're
on my land when you get caught, I'm going to enjoy your rig 'till you get
back! ( Just kidding!)
Just a few thoughts from a land owner/user. Hope it helps!
Bud Rosenberger
85 SR5 longbed
85 shortbed
84 xtra cab( rolled before I got it by one of the afore-mentioned yahoos,
probably!!)
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:00:39 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: 4x fun
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
matt877@juno.com (Matthew C Chapin) wrote:
"...I went out for a little 4x/fishing trip...
I had to tresspass on private property to get
to the river (the river is public). I am
wondering what the feelings towards this type
of tresspassing are from...the list...we did
not leave any trace that we were even there
except maybe some tire tracks and a 1 less
fish in the river..."
In California, at least, a private landowner must provide "reasonable"
access across his land if it is the only prudent way to a public-access
area (a beach, for example). If you ran down some power-line roads, those
roads and the easement that they are on should be owned by the power
company, not the landowner. I don't have any power lines on my property,
but neighboring ranchers do, and the power companies either bought or
leased that land from them (sometimes under the eminent domain clause).
Bottom line? If this is the case in your neck of the woods, you weren't
tresspassing at all, unless your power company takes issue with it.
Happy trails,
- Nick
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:24:29 -0400
From: grandall@tmac.com
Subject: Subject: 4x fun
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>but what is the harm in using a road that was already there to access
>a public area?
What is the harm in getting permission to use someone's property? I
hunt, fish, and trap on a lot of private property and always get
permission. A lot of property is gated and posted simply because
people started using it without the simple courtesy to ask permission.
There are legal ramifications of allowing the public to use a private
road. The land owner could end up with a prescriptive easement across
his property.
The best part of getting permission is that you usually end up with
exclusive rights to choice areas and a new friend. You can find out
who owns a piece of property by going to the town or county tax
records, which give the owner's name and address. It varies from
state to state. It takes a little time but, believe me, it's worth
it.
As a professional land surveyor I've looked down the barrels of enough
guns to know that people are very jealous and protective of their
property. Driving a vehicle down someone's road IS NOT the same as
walking down it!
Gary Randall - Brunswick, Maine
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:37:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sam Houston
Subject: Subject: 4x fun
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Soapbox mode on.
Having experience with this from the landowner's side, I have to agree with
Gary. There is nothing quite as infuriating as posting your own property
"No Trespassing" and trying to let old logging roads go "back to seed" and
finding people tearing up the roads (and your fields) and generally
trespassing - much less poaching game from your property. I am very much a
landowner rights backer and have unfortunately spent some time on the other
end of the gun. I know carry a weapon with me at all times when on my
property as a result of confrontations with trespassers. My advice ...
always get permission, even if you have standing permission, call ahead.
And never ever cross a posted boundary line unless you have permission from
the landowner.
Soapbox mode off.
Sam Houston
shouston@ix.netcom.com
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:11:55 EDT
From: matt877@juno.com (Matthew C Chapin)
Subject: 4xfun
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I would like anyone who cares to know the land I was referring to in my
earlier posts was owned by a Rod&Gun club from about 2 hours south of
here. And as far as the easments of the Power lines they had a gate
across the road but I had found a different way in from another trai. I
am wondering if I understand correctly, that power companys can't stop
you from using the land if you have permission from the owner(if the
owner is not the power comp.)?
Matt Chapin
matt877@juno.com
81' 4x4 SR5
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:54:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sam Houston
Subject: 4xfun
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>I am wondering if I understand correctly, that power companys can't stop
>you from using the land if you have permission from the owner(if the
>owner is not the power comp.)?
>Matt Chapin
>matt877@juno.com
>81' 4x4 SR5
Matt -
It depends on how the easement is written. In many cases, the landowner
whose property is crossed controls the access. In some cases; however, the
power company has a stronger easement (basically an indefinite lease) and
they control the access. Most power companies prefer if their access roads
are not used since maintaining them can be quite expensive.
Now I will admit to coming in late on this thread, but I will stand behind
always asking the landowner for permission prior to accessing his/her/their
land.
Sam Houston
shouston@ix.netcom.com
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:07:11 -0400
From: grandall@tmac.com
Subject: 4xfun
To: Toyota Users Group
One thing I've learned in life is "don't assume anything"! In a
situation similar to the one under discussion the only known fact is
"it ain't yours", the rest is mostly assumption. If you make
assumptions about someone else's property then you'd better be
prepared to pay the consequences without complaint. We all know that
assume will make an ASS out of U and ME.
Don't mean to preach as I've learned practically every lesson the hard
way. As a teenager I tore up a farmer's field with my jeep. After
spending several days repairing it he allowed me access to some of the
best hunting I ever had, let me ride his horses, and became a friend.
It's funny, but these lessons always boil down to "do the right
thing", "respect others", and "take responsibility". Now where did I
hear that first?. And why didn't I listen when it was free instead of
paying for it later?
Gary Randall - Brunswick, Maine
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