Pinion Seal R&R

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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:32:50 -0500
From: "R. W. 'Butch' Stiles" 
Subject: Pinion Seal Leakage
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

john skaggs wrote:
> 
> Who ever can help.  I need to replace the rear pinion seal on my 85 4Runner.
> In the books that I have (Haynes & The Bible)  they are vague about the seal
> replacement procedure.  I wanted to find out if I am better off taking it to
> the dealer or doing it myself?  I have a torque wrench and other common tools.
> The books do not give torque specs in this area.  Does anyone on list know?
> 
> Also does anybody know the valve clearance specs for an 85 22re?  My manuals
> don't have these specs either.
> 
> Thanks for any info,
> 
> John Skaggs
> TLCA # waiting
> John.Skaggs@ab.com


John, 
        The secret to replacing the pinion seal is the staked nut you
will find holding the works together. It has a thin rim around the top
which is "staked", or punched into a groove in the pinion shaft. The 
problem here is the crush sleeve inside, the nut is torqued to give
a specific amount of 'crush' to this sleeve. If the nut is not returned
to the EXACT same position during re-assembly the pinion bearing(s) are
going to fail and then you've bought yourself a third member. I did this
job once and got away with it, the second time (another vehicle) I had 
warranty coverage and used it, so that if the mechanic 'cheated' like
I had, and things went wrong I could make the dealer buy me a new rear.
Also getting that nut off is a MOTHER !!! Good luck !

                                Butch Stiles
                                rokitman@erols.com
                                Just as it says, "Rocket Man"

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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:20:42 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Pinion Seal Leakage
To: "        -         (052)John.Skaggs (a) cle.ab.com" 

Ah.. the joys of smelling buring gear oil spun off the pinion onto the hot
muffler...

Ive done this - cheated and got away with it for oh...100K or so

The following item is CRUCIAL to get the torque right - a piece of 
flat steel stock with a small semi circle cut out and two bolt holes 
that line up with the pinion flange.

Moses Ludel has a picture of a similar home made tool in his "bible" book(s).
You can buy one from OTC as a Toyota SST - I think they want $100 for it.
(its real purty too! I was stupid and now own one....)

You CAN get the nut off w/ and impact wrench - but you cant properly retorque
the nut w/o one.

ALSO - its considered "mandatory" to replace the crush sleeve. The problem is
that it is "behind" the front pinion bearing. The pinion bearing is slightly 
press fit onto the pinon shaft - so - how do you get the pinion bearing off?
1 - wait till the bearing self destructs - and then all the peices fall off
     rather easily (I know this trick "works")
2 - get the "special" OTC Toyota SST - comes off in 1/4 bannana time (and
another $100)

While you can replace the seal and get a torque reading w/o replacing the crush
sleeve, it will take out he bearing in about 100K or so. While it may be possible 
to limp the bearing along, get used to frequent seal replacements (approx 20K or 
less). In my case, I was biding time to the R&P swap (for which I now have parts 
but no time to install)

EWong

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Date: 18 Mar 1997 10:13:28 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski" 
Subject: Pinion Seal Leakage
To: "Toyota 4x4 List" 

                      Subject:                              Time:  8:27 AM
  OFFICE MEMO         Pinion Seal Leakage                   Date:  3/18/97

You can loosen and replace the pinion nut to replace the seal IF you 
return the nut to the same position to duplicate the previous bearing
preload. Now......the tricky part is that you will have to unstake the
nut and then restake it once it is retightened. 

But.....how can you restake it in the same place when the nut metal
is missing or damaged in that area? I think your best bet is to 
tighten it just past the damaged spot and restake it. This will put
a bit more preload on the bearings but not too much if you go just
past the previous staking spot.

Also, for extra measure, I have started "potting" my pinion flanges 
with silicone just in case the staking loosens. I will at least have
something trying to keep the nut from turning.

Anybody else got ideas?

_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski    '85 Toylet  (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club            TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________

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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:26:43 -0600
From: Jack Alford 
Subject: Pinion Seal Leakage
To: toy4x4@tlca.org

Jay K. of Jay's Toyota Customs wrote:

>But.....how can you restake it in the same place when the nut metal
>is missing or damaged in that area? I think your best bet is to 
>tighten it just past the damaged spot and restake it. This will put
>a bit more preload on the bearings but not too much if you go just
>past the previous staking spot.

This is good idea for another reason also, when you put the preload
on the bearings you're crushing the crush collar, which most every
shop who works on diffs. will tell you to replace everytime you 
loosen the pinion nut. By tightening the pinion nut a bit more you're
probably coming closer to putting the correct preload on the bearings
than returning it to the same spot.

 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 Jack Alford              Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
 jalford@off-road.com              http://www.off-road.com/
 Decatur, AL

             '86 Xcab Toyota Pickup -  33x12.50 BFG MT
         Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
         SFWDA  -  TLCA #3415  -  Rocket City Rock Crawlers

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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:08:00 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Pinion Seal Leakage
To: "        -         (052)toy4x4 (a) tlca.org" 

Jack, Jay:

I guess you too have done your fair share of these.

I do mine on the garage floor, with the axle up on stands. At least the floor
is level.

Anyway - if I remember right; the troque is some mondo number like 180lbs.
I cant "pull" that lying down on the floor; I have to "step" on the torque
wrench to do that.

With the wrench on the nut - you cant see where it gets "turned past".
New nuts are not too expensive, the dealers stock em. Of course - w/o
a torque wrench, you cant tell how tight to put it on!

The first time I did this - I cound not get the wrench to "click over" at
180lbs.
I also ended up with *more* thread showing than before (I counted). So
I know I over tightened it. I could not get the bearing off the shaft, so I had
the old crush sleeve in there.

This bearing lasted another 100K before self destructing (never left me
stranded tho).
I used to replace the seals at approx 20K intervals cause the leaking got bad.
I would "tighten up" the whole assembly. At some point in time I got the
SST puller and replaced the crush sleeve as well. I'd replace the bearing, but
I couldn't figure out how to to get the race out w/o taking the diff apart.

When the bearing self desructed, I needed to get to work the next day (I was
doing another seal R&R). I just placed the new bearing ($30) on top of the 
chewed up race and torqued the thing to 200lbs. Its held up for 30K (not 
too bad for $30).

By now, theres about 20 degress of slop on the R&P, but Im waiting for the
warmer weather to swap both the diff and R&P (4.56 and TruTracs in both ends),
so the trashed R&P dont bother me none - it will make a nice paper weight.

For all thos guys considering doing this themselves - thats my tale

EWong

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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 16:09:16 -0500
From: WartHog 
Subject: Pinion Seal Leakage
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

Ed.Wong@astramerck.com wrote:
> 
> Jack, Jay:
> 
> I guess you too have done your fair share of these.
> 
> I do mine on the garage floor, with the axle up on stands. At least the floor
> is level.
> 
> Anyway - if I remember right; the troque is some mondo number like 180lbs.
> I cant "pull" that lying down on the floor; I have to "step" on the torque
> wrench to do that.
> 

According to Chilton ( Granted it's not the best manual), You dont
torque the pinion nut, per say. The nut is tightend untill a certin
force is needed to turn the pinion assy ( 5-9 inch lbs). Measure with
fish scale and string.

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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 18:08:19 +0500
From: Scott Hollister 
Subject: Pinion Seal Leakage
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

I believe you need to use a torque wrench that measures inch-pounds.  The
fish scale and string method can have various readings depending on where
you attach the string.  The torque measurement should also be done without
the drag of the axle shafts and accompanying bearings. Good luck.
Scott
Scott Hollister
shollist@vt.edu
84 xtracab  33's  EZ Locker,  Onboard Air,
Dual Batteries,  Front Axle Forward 1"  5.29's.

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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:14:44 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Pinion Seal Leakage
To: "        -         (052)Toy4x4 (a) tlca.org" 

Hey - Im just a 1 bannana money wrench!

I have far too many Yota shop manuals :)

My *recollection* is that the FACTORY manual sez to
1) torque to some number (like 180lbs)
2) test for preload using a *light* beam torque wrench (like 15 in /lbs)
3) turn the nut in small increments until the light preload is met
*** never back off the nut as the crush sleeve wont spring back

I wonder how many mechs actually follow the "recomended" procedure. My
experience has shown that a ham fisted job will last quite a long time.

EWong

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Return-Path: 
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Rear Differential problems
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:28:44 -0400

Barney:

Glad to hear you had a good time...

Others have *flamed* me for this but... I've limped my diff along for about 
100K in your condition.... well not really..
The R&R can be staved off by
1 - frequent seal and crush sleeve replacements
2 - new bearing (about $40)

I've put a new bearing on top of the chewed up race and gotten another
15K out of the diff.

Dont worry - I just swapped in a 'yard tranny last week. Gad - I can 
hear the radio again :)

If you ave access to the Yota SST - its easy to pull the bearing to 
replace the crush sleeve. I could'nt figure a way to do it with normal 
bearing puller tools.

However, if you have access to lots of bearing puller attachemtns - you
"could" pull the race out as well. Thus you could swap out the bearing 
w/o removing the diff.

Actually - since removign the diff aint that bad anyway - the brake 
bleeding is the worst part IMHO - (need two people), there might be 
a way to pull the race on the bench.

Here near Philly - it was $300 for the diff (OUCH).
I guess its cheaper out there.

EWong
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:30:08 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski" 
Subject: Pinion crush sleeve
To: Toyota 4x4 List 

Just a note of something you may want to watch for.........

I just bought a Genuine Gear master install kit which includes
Timken bearings, pinion seal, shims, crush sleeve, ring gear
bolts, etc.

I was looking at the crush sleeve and it didn't look too beefy
I measured it and found it to be 0.055" welded tubing. I measured
a factory Toy one I had and found it to be 0.080" thick and appears
to be a seamless piece. 

I talked to a friend at a local shop here who told me they do not
use the aftermarket crush sleeves and prefer the factory ones for
reliability. 

I went ahead and paid the $20 for a Toyota one. It just seemed
that the Genuine one was kinda light and I don't want to worry
about the longevity of my third member over a $20 part.

Just thought I'd let you know for those of you who have gears and
such installed.....you may want to check with your installer on this.

Jay Kopycinski    '85 Toylet  (ROKTOY)

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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:23:34 -0600
From: John Vargas 
Subject: Pinion crush sleeve
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

I just finsihed my installs and i must say i agree with Jay. I 
purchased toyota ones for the very same reasons.  One difference 
I didnt pay 20 a piece for a crush sleeve :-)

John

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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:34:12 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski" 
Subject: Pinion crush sleeve
To: Toyota 4x4 List 

I'm assuming you do not have an early model truck ('79 to some early 
'80s year). These do not use crush sleeves but use a solid steel collar
instead.

The gear contact pattern is based on two dimensions.......the carrier 
backlash and the pinion depth. You did not really change either of 
these unless your large (can't recall the exact term) pinion bearing 
is worn badly in which case you've got bigger problems anyway.

Snugging down was probably ok. Getting it very tight is not a good idea.
When you setup a crush sleeve the idea is basically to tighten just 
enough to take all the play out of the third member/pinion/bearings 
assembly and then get it just a tad tighter to preload the bearings 
just a bit. The nut and pinion squeeze the bearings together and the 
sleeve serves to push back in the other direction....holding everything 
firmly together.

If you overtighten and over-crush the sleeve what you do is force the 
bearing tighter into their races. If you go too tight, you can gall 
and burn your bearings. So the question is....how tight did you tighten 
it?

Sorry if this explanation is a little vague. I'm trying to describe the 
setup in fairly general terms........Maybe Ed Wong can add a little more.
He has successfully retorqued pinions on his truck.

Jay Kopycinski    '85 Toylet  (ROKTOY)

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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:20:28 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Pinion crush sleeve
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

On the rear diff - getting hte crush sleeve out w/o the "special Yota 
Tool" is interesting to say the least. I have one of the special Yota 
tools, but its not cheap (still cheaper than having someone else do 
the work)

I ran a diff like this for over 100K!
Granted I replaced crush sleeves every 30K-20K miles as it started 
leaking again. yeah - the pinion bearings were toast when I finally 
took everything out - - but you should be able to get away with it 
for a little while anyway.

Esp since you are planning to replace everything anyway -
I wouldnt worry too much.

EWong

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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 23:00:46 -0500
From: Agustinus Gunawan 
Subject: Pinion crush sleeve
To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'" 

I retighten it about 1 / 16 of a turn, can not say about the torque 
since I did not the change the nut. The nut still has the locking 
dimple when I tighten it.

Thanks for all who have response. I think I will just wait until 
summer and order the bearing kits along with a rear True Trac.

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