Welding Class - Brief

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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:53:41 -0600
From: Jack Alford 
Subject: nerf bars/welding
To: toy4x4@tlca.org

>I talked about this with my friend who welds for a living (hoping he'd
>offer to weld mine when I finally get them)(he did), he said there's no
>problem as long as you only weld in the direction of the frame (front to
>back, not across).  If you go across you weaken the frame and give it a
>better chance of bending at that weld.  Just remember, it's a lot like
>working with wood, "go with the grain."

Not to doubt your friend but if this is truely the case I shouldn't even
get my truck out of the garage nor should most any other hard core wheeler
who's made alot of mods to their trucks frame. I've welded up it, down it,
across it, back across it, back down it, I've welded spring hangers, shock
mounts, spring mounts, cut 1-5/16" holes through BOTH frame rails welded spring
hanger tubes in, welded on mounts for several diff. power steering boxes,
I've even welded on my axle housings front and rear:
4-wheeled the Rubicon once, Tellico three times, and numerous tough
trips close by and not even the first sign of a crack in anything that's
been welded.  I'm no professional welder but have read several books
and don't fear anything falling off my truck nor my frame cracking.

The thing to remember is that possibly you are weakening the frame a bit
in the point where you weld it BUT there's a reason why you're welding
at that point, to afix some other piece of metal to that spot which
will by the same token give back strength.  

I wouldn't be so concerned with what others who haven't welded on Toyota
truck frames have to say,  Toyota frames are thick and tough, (at least until
1995 they were ...). I use my truck harder than two average people would, I
wouldn't fear welding a set of nerfs on at all. In fact I'm about to make a
custom set myself ... and even weld them on heaven forbid.

Brief Welding Class:

An average welding rod, say a 7014 (my personal favorite rod for welding
on my Toyota frame) it has a tensile strength of 70,000 psi, is an
all position rod (horizontal, vertical, etc.) and works with DC Either
Polarity or AC, Iron Powder Flux.

While the Toyota 4x4 truck/4Runner frames up until 1995 at least had a
tensile strength of 36,000 psi. The weld metal put in place by burning the
welding rod is going to be almost twice as strong as the frame was. If
you've ever seen
a sorry welders weld brake, it wasn't the weld that broke (welding rods
are strong as shown in my example above) but the metal around the weld
because the welder did not get good enough penetration to make the piece
they were welding on and the piece they were welding to become one.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 Jack Alford              Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
 jalford@off-road.com              http://www.off-road.com/
 Decatur, AL

             '86 Xcab Toyota Pickup -  33x12.50 BFG MT
         Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
         SFWDA  -  TLCA #3415  -  Rocket City Rock Crawlers

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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 00:20:48 -0500
From: "R. W. 'Butch' Stiles" 
Subject: nerf bars/welding
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

Jack Alford wrote:
> all snipped 

My .02, to go along with Jack, there is no restriction (other than some
state regulations about the welder being certified) to welding on your
vehicle's frame. The big rigs that were referred to have frames made
out of a special TEMPERED material that must NOT be heated in ANY 
way or  the tempering will be lost and the frame weakened to where it 
will fail.
Your Toyota truck does not support, even remotely, the kind of load that
a semi has to deal with. So, within reason, have at it !
Remember though, these welds are ctitical to the integrity of your 
truck, so be sure, and be safe !

				Butch Stiles
				rokitman@erols.com
				Just as it says, "Rocket Man"

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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:39:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Knowles Ken 
Subject: nerf bars/welding
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

Yes, this is the key factor, tempering the steel. The reason welds break
next to the bead is that that steel has been heated to melting and then
cooled rapidly. This hardens the metal (different than tensile strength)
and it becomes brittle. Also, the reason you see junkers with broken
frames where there is something welded on is because this is exactly where
the leverage is greatest, *not* necesasarily where the frame is weakest. 

 .02 from an ex-pro welder (20 years ago!) 

- --
Ken Knowles                    National Snow & Ice Data Center
knowles@kryos.colorado.edu     University of Colorado
voice: 303-492-0644            Campus Box 449
fax: 303-492-2468              Boulder, CO 80309-0449

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Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:45:04 +0000
From: Brendan 
Subject: more exiting stuff on nerf bars/welding
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

All of this "discussion" on welding sounds like fun, so I'm going to
jump in and see if I can cause some H & D (hate and discontent) :-).
I agree with the aforementioned material completely.  The material and
heat treating used on semi trucks are a bit different then what is used
on little Toyota frames.  Heavy duty semi truck frames have a yield
strength of about 115,000 psi or more, whereas Jack said Toyotas are
around 36,000 psi.   
Welding is pretty harsh on metals because of the molecular changes that
occur when heated to a molten state.  The material surrounding the weld
will lose its heat treated properties and return to its annealed state. 
This why they say not to weld on semi frames and while with light duty
trucks it is okay.  The yield strength on a light duty frame won't
change as drastically as on a heavy duty frame when heated beyond a dull
red color.  This is one the more major reasons why cracks or breakage
occur near the weld.  Although over time, the metal may naturally age
and regain some of its previous qualities.
Welding nerf bars on a Toyota won't cause any problems.  Since the
frame is boxed, there are three other sides to support.  Also the welded
areas are small and localized.  Although what that one fellow said about
welding across is true also, especially on round tubing.  But one has to
take into account stress location and dissipation as well.  In this
case, there won't be any bad side effects, even in an accident.
The weld quality on some of the Toyotas I've seen isn't very good. 
even my truck has some crappy welds.  The welds on my cab where it
mounts to the frame are so cold that they look like bird turds sittin'
on a fence post.  On other areas, the undercut is to the point where
about half the thickness of the frame is eaten into (on the other hand,
my dad's Volvo has welds that are of a much better quality and the frame
is constructed of heavier guage material as well).  But it is still
holding together however.  I've even gotten it airborne a couple of
times (accidently) and nothing has fallen off.  This sort of thing would
pose just as great a problem as welding all over the frame if it were to
get into an accident.
	Most of the welding I've read on this list sounds somewhat mild
compared to what this one crazy old coot I know of has done.  A local
junkyard owner who specializes in older Toyotas had two smashed '86
Toyotas.  One of them had a smashed front end.  So he cuts both frames
in half and welds the two good pieces together.  And sure enough, I look
under the cab and see a big fat stick weld stitched around frame with
some slag still hanging on.  The guy drives like a manic and it is still
in one piece (although I don't think goes off road very much).

	HEY JACK, IFS RULES!!!                                         :-)

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Date: 25 Aug 1997 09:50:47 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski" 
Subject: Welding Question
To: "Toyota 4x4 List" 

                      Subject:                              Time:  8:24 AM
  OFFICE MEMO         Welding Question                      Date:  8/25/97

Sheldon  wrote:

>I need some advice on welding. I have heard a few different 
>stories on what to disconnect while your welding on your truck. 
snip

I don't think I have ever disconnected the battery on my truck
when I've welded on it and I have not ever had anything damaged
as a result. However, disconnecting the battery before welding
is probably not a bad idea.

- ----------------------------------------------------------
runars@isbank.is [SMTP:runars@isbank.is] wrote:

>However be careful not to turn your truck into fire.  
>Always have some anti-fire devices with you.

I definitely agree here. I always like to have a fire extinguisher
close by in case things try to go up in smoke. I also try to be
careful when welding near any rubberized coatings or grease
to make sure things don't catch on fire (too much). I stop and
raise my shield from time to time to check too because you 
usually can't see flames behind a dark lense.

- ----------------------------------------------------------
Agustinus Gunawan  wrote:

>NO!!!!
>Don't do  this if you have electronic equipment the welding current will 
>destroy it especially if you have a bad welding ground.
>If your vehicle is equipped with EFI you would destroy the computer

We are really talking about two power supplies here. The first is
the battery and the second the welding rig. They both are going
to share a common ground point (the frame and anything connected
to it), but other than that are isolated. (I am refering here to a 
welding rig powered by your house current).

The welding current will travel along the positive cable, rod,
frame, negative cable back to the welder. This will be the low
resistance path and there should be no current flow to any
other electrical devices on the truck. If you have a bad welding
ground then the current flow from the welder will be stopped 
or lowered. There is no other path from the frame back to the
welder.

I suggest keeping the welder ground cable attached fairly close to the 
point where you are welding. Placing the welder ground cable at one
end of the truck and welding at the other end will cause current
flow down the length of the truck.


>Just disconnect the either one its not a problem. But disconnect the 
>battery. Although a positive connected last usually produce less or smaller 
>spark so it would be saver.

One thought......if you disconnect the positive and leave the negative
connected you still have a potential hazard. If you drop something 
that touches the body/engine and the positive post, you get mucho
current flow......i.e. red hot wrench. If you disconnect the negative 
and leave the positive you avoid this possibility.

______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski                                  '85 Toylet   (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ                                        '91 4Runner (hers) 
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com               '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk        '97  H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club               TLCA #3243
______________________________________________

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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:50:20 -0000
From: runars@isbank.is
Subject: Welding Question
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

> ----------------------------------------------------------
> runars@isbank.is [SMTP:runars@isbank.is] wrote:
> >However be careful not to turn your truck into fire.
> >Always have some anti-fire devices with you.
> I definitely agree here. I always like to have a fire extinguisher
> close by in case things try to go up in smoke. I also try to be
> careful when welding near any rubberized coatings or grease
> to make sure things don't catch on fire (too much). I stop and
> raise my shield from time to time to check too because you
> usually can't see flames behind a dark lense.

	A wet rag is even better.
	Using a fire extinguisher is a quite messy way to deal
	with tiny little fires. Also if welding inside your truck
	(or on its body in general), an old 
	wool blanket is a must to isolate the welding area from the
	surrounding interior.  Little pices of melted metal usually fly
	in all directions from the welding spot, and they make
	those ugly holes where the land.  They can also turn stuff
	into fire if they land on something flamanble.
	Little rubber things (body-hole closures,, e.t.c) also have a
	tendacy of dissapering, if positioned close to the
	weldingspot.....


	Just my kr 10 worth.....
	Runar.

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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:14:40 -0700
From: Scott Wilson 
Reply-To: swilson@pacbell.net
To: "Boyd,Tom" , Nick Krest ,
        Barney McNamara ,
        Eric Stegall , Earle Rother ,
        Mark Hansen , "Don M.West" 
Subject: Re: Lunch Tuesday!

I got just back from Drake's welding.  My truck won't be ready till
tomorrow afternoon.   I'm glad I put a $1000 cap on the work...they're
going at least 4-5 hours over that at $65/hour!   It looks really
(REALLY) nice so far.  

Anyway...I won't have a vehicle tomorrow at lunch.   Can I hitch a ride
Nick?  I'm a whole block outta your way.  :)   Give me a call tomorrow
morning at work to let me know if that'll work...415-852-5148   

Scott
-- 
     _____       
    /_/_|_\__      Scott Wilson
   | _     _ :     Santa Clara, CA
   */_\---/_\'     http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
    (_)   (_)      
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:36:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: ScottsAS1@aol.com
Subject: Portable Welder
To: toy4x4@tlca.org

I was just paging through an automotive supply catalog from one of our
vendors when I came accross something that may be useful to alot of people.
 It is a 130 amp rechargeable wire feed welder.  The company who make it is
Solar (they make MIG welders and battery chargers).  The specs. are as
follows:

* welds from 1/4" steel to thin 18 gauge metal
* Uses self shielding flux cored wire
* Welds up to 60 inches of metal in a single charge
* Can be recharge from 120 volt outlet
* Contains high quality 6' wire fed welding gun, ground cable and clamp,
starter spool      of wire (.030 flux core), welding shield, welding nozzle,
spool tensioner, spare contact tips, & battery recharger pack.

It looks like a portable "booster pack", the portable battery jumpers that
came out a few years ago.  From the picture, it appears to be a nice compact
unit.  The model number is 2135.  The answer to the question you are all
asking yourselves right now is - $437.68.  For those of you who wanted to
take a welder with you when you hit the trails and do not have one on your
truck, it may be something to look into.  If anyone gets one, letme know how
it works.

Matt Dewalt
91 4Runner SR5, V6, A/T

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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 22:59:38 -0400
From: "jfloen" 
Subject: welding steering arms
To: 

JAY K. WAS TALKING ABOUT STEERING ARM PROBLEMS.I TOO HAD PROBLEMS WITH MINE
ON MY '81 TOY.YEARS OF OFFROAD ABUSE TOOK ITS TOLL ON MY ARM AND IT FINALY
SNAPPED.I'M A WELDER BY TRADE AND I WANTED TO BEEF IT UP SO IT WOULD NOT
HAPPEN AGAIN.HERE'S WHAT TO DO WHEN WELDING SOMETHING YOU DON'T WANT TO FIX
TWICE.
1:USE AN ANGLE GRINDER TO CHECK WHAT TYPE OF MATERIAL IT IS.GET A WELDING
MANUAL FOR MORE DETAILS(BTW,A TOY ARM IS CAST STEEL,FINE TO WELD).
2:BEVEL THE EDGES TO BE WELDED TO LEAVE A 60 TO 90 DEGREE V WHEN THE PEICES
ARE IN PLACE.
3:LIGHTLY TACK WELD THE TWO PEICES TOGETHER IN A FEW SPOTS
4:PLACE IN A COLD OVEN AND TURN THE OVEN ON TO 450-500 DEGREES.LEAVE IN TO
PREHEAT FOR ABOUT 2 HOURS.
5:USING HEAVY GLOVES TAKE THE ARM OUT OF THE OVEN(LEAVE THE OVEN ON),SET IT
UP IN YOUR BENCH VISE AND QUICKLY PUT A SMALL PASS ON EACH SIDE TO PREVENT
DISTORTION.WELD IN A FLAT POSITION USING A SIGHT WEAVE IF NECCESARRY.BUILD
UP WELDING TO FULLY ENCLOSE THE V NOTCH.
6:WHEN WELDING IS COMPLETE PUT THE ARM BACK IN YOUR OVEN FOR ABOUT TWO
HOURS AT 400-500 DEGREES.AFTER TWO HOURS TURN IT DOWN TO 200 DEGREES FOR 1
HOUR THEN TURN OVEN OFF AND LET COOL IN OVEN UNTIL COLD.

IF YOU DO THIS PROPERLY YOU WILL HAVE AN ARM AS STRONG OR STRONGER THAN
STOCK(IF YOU BEEF IT UP)THAT WILL NOT BE BRITTLE.PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE
PRE-HEATING AND POST HEATING OPERATIONS AS THEY ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN
WETHER OR NOT YOU ARE A PRO WELDER.
HOPE THIS HELPS YOUR BROKEN ARMS!

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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 09:44:37 EST
From: "james stevenson" 
Subject: Broken Dif
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

I broke my first full float cruser axle this weekend.  I happened while 
powering up a hude mountain pass on the Merricumbine Trail in OZ. 
Somehow the the retaining nut stripped itself so the Hub, brakes and 
axle whent flying off. When it let loose it splut the stub axle down the 
thread. I removed the center and locked the LSD so I had 3 wheel drive. 
Then I hammered the stub axle back togerher and weled it inside along 
the split. Net I put the hub back on and welded the washer onto the stub 
so the hub would not come off. This allowed ne to complete the tail in 
3WD. I wold have been in alot of trouble if it wasnt a Full Floater. For 
those thing of carring a welder I just take the rods. I hookup a set of 
jumper cables to one of the aux batteries. I strap the earth close to 
the weld and clip the positive to the rod. It doesn't make for the best 
looking welds but it a lightwheight solution.

James Stevenson
TonkaTuf2

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