Paint
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:35:21 -0700
From: "Robert W. Hughes"
Subject: Paint for roll cage
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:23:37 -0700
To: tlca
From: "Robert W. Hughes"
Subject: RE: Paint for roll cage
Chase,
I have found an excellent paint for this an other parts (axal housings). It
is call "TRIM BLACK", made by SEM PRODUCTS INC Charlotte NC. I get it at
the local automotive paint shack.... It comes in Spray cans or Quarts for
the Spray Gun....
- -----
R.W. (Bob)Hughes
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:45:13 +0100
From: jhassi@foothill.net (Jim Hassi)
Subject: Paint for rollcage & roof-rack
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
Our Buddy Chaser asked:
Anyone got suggestions for a durable roofrack/rollcage paint? Black is my
color of choice. Can I shoot a quart of Rust-o-leum through my spray gun?
It takes forever to dry but seems to be quite durable...
Chase-
I just painted the inside of the hood of my 'other' FJ-40 with black
Rustoleum. Because it takes forever to dry, I can see dust 'craters' in it.
For a roll cage and rack, I give you one of my favorite secrets: I would
shoot a product called Hammerite. Comes in cool colors/finishes and is way
durable, needs no primer, prevents rust etc. The hammered black and charcol
colors are awesome. Home Depot carries a VERY limited selection, but my
local autobody supplier carries the full line. Quarts run $ 10 , gallons
run $30, rattle cans about $6. This stuff is so much tougher than Rusto
that I have even scraped my bumpers on granite and not gone thru 2 coats.
Jim says Check it Out -- shit now I have let the cat out of the bag!
Everyone will have cool looking Cruisers now! Just don't tell the Jeep guys
about it!
Jim
'
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:31:48 +0000
From: sbever@jeffnet.org
Subject: Paint for roll cage
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:35:21 -0700
> From: "Robert W. Hughes"
> Subject: Paint for roll cage
> To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:23:37 -0700
> To: tlca
> From: "Robert W. Hughes"
> Subject: RE: Paint for roll cage
>
> Chase,
>
> I have found an excellent paint for this an other parts (axal housings). It
> is call "TRIM BLACK", made by SEM PRODUCTS INC Charlotte NC. I get it at
> the local automotive paint shack.... It comes in Spray cans or Quarts for
> the Spray Gun....
Since it sounds like it doesn't use a catalyst (hardner), how does it
hold up to things like gas and grease?
BTW I've used some POR-15 and it can't be resolved even with lacquer
thinner. Now if I could just get the stuff off my hands. . .
> - -----
> R.W. (Bob)Hughes
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:03:07 -0700
From: Gary Bjork
Subject: Paint for roll cage
To: tlcal@tlca.org
I am forwarding this.
>Return-Path: TLCAtreas@aol.com
>From: TLCAtreas@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:08:35 -0400
>To: tlcaedit@calweb.com
>Subject: Re: Paint for roll cage
>> Subj: RE: Paint for roll cage
>> Date: 96-09-17 22:33:39 EDT
>> From: rwhughe@ndpsc1.cncr1401.PacBell.COM (Robert W. Hughes)
>> To: TACAL@tlca.org
>>
>> Chase,
>>
>> I have found an excellent paint for this an other parts (axal housings).
>It
>> is call "TRIM BLACK", made by SEM PRODUCTS INC Charlotte NC. I get it at
>> the local automotive paint shack.... It comes in Spray cans or Quarts for
>> the Spray Gun....
>>
>> -----
>> R.W. (Bob)Hughes
>>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:37:16 +0000
From: sbever@jeffnet.org
Subject: Paint for rollcage & roof-rack
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:45:13 +0100
> From: jhassi@foothill.net (Jim Hassi)
> Subject: Paint for rollcage & roof-rack
> To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
> For a roll cage and rack, I give you one of my favorite secrets: I would
> shoot a product called Hammerite. Comes in cool colors/finishes and is way
> durable, needs no primer, prevents rust etc. The hammered black and charcol
> colors are awesome. Home Depot carries a VERY limited selection, but my
> local autobody supplier carries the full line. Quarts run $ 10 , gallons
> run $30, rattle cans about $6.
My FJ came with silver hammerite on my front bumper. Think I'll use
black when I redo it.
>This stuff is so much tougher than Rusto
> that I have even scraped my bumpers on granite and not gone thru 2 coats.
Do you mix the quarts with a catalyst and do you find the rattle cans
actually produce a hard and non resolvable (by gas, grease. . .) finish
as they obviously don't have a harder in them?
> Jim says Check it Out -- shit now I have let the cat out of the bag!
> Everyone will have cool looking Cruisers now! Just don't tell the Jeep guys
> about it!
>
>
>
>
> Jim
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:50:30 +0000
From: sbever@jeffnet.org
Subject: Paint for rollcage & roof-rack
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:54:23 -0700
> From: "Tami Cowart"
> Subject: Paint for rollcage & roof-rack
> To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
> How about re-painting the suspension components, control arms, axles, etc...
> Can you use something like Hammerite for this application as well? Anyone have
> any tips on re-painting parts underneath the rig?
Been there. I used POR-15 and brushed it on the undercarriage and
frame. I sprayed it where I cared about the way it looked. Even
brushed, it flows pretty well. I then used the POR-15 topcoat for the
areas that were exposed to the sun (front of the frame. . . ). POR-15 is
really hard and sticks if you paint it on rough or rusty metal (it
prefers rust). Otherwise, use their etching zinc primer soak first.
The topcoat seems to only be a good topcoat on the POR-15 undercoat. It
doesn't stick well to other paint or to metal.
I used an epoxy primer (hard as nails) on the front fender wells and
then covered with rubberized undercoating so that if the undercoating
leaked, the epoxy would stop the moisture. Similarily, I used POR-15 on
the rear wheel wells (as there was really no way to strip them down to
bare metal easily like the front ones) and also topcoated with ruberized
undercoating.
I'm happy with the end result, but considering all the work, I think I
might buy Krylon engine enamel next time and be done in 1/10th the time.
But with POR-15, I'm pretty sure I won't be painting any of these areas
again. With Krylon, I'd probably be under the rig painting every year,
after washing and scrubbing, and masking. . . . . On second thought,
I'm really glad I used the POR-15.
Although I used POR-15 on the pumpkins and axles, I probably would use
the Krylon next time, as I can paint them without masking in about 10
minutes and they will probably get abused by rocks, etc. and will need
touchup down the road.
> Tami
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:50:03 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron)
Subject: Paint for rollcage & roof-rack
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
One Word!! Hammerite.
Looks great, Very strong. Glenn Wakefield (ORD), Rob Bryce (ORD), Simon
Bright (TLCAL) and others have used---All say it's great: Strong finish,
groovy colours, neat texture.....
>How about re-painting the suspension components, control arms, axles, etc...
>Can you use something like Hammerite for this application as well? Anyone have
>any tips on re-painting parts underneath the rig?
>
>Tami
Yes, works great for that too.
Tips:
Make all parts really clean berfore you start.
NO dirt, dust, rust or grease.
Do not apply paint to a smooth or glossy surface---it won't stick well.
Try wiping with a solvent (Hammerite uses an Aromatic Solvent [can use the
cheaper non-proprietary stuff]) before application can soften hard glossy
paints so that there will be less (no) adhesion problems. Sanding does the
same thing.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 12:25:06 BST
From: Mark van Harmelen
Subject: POR-15 vs Hammerlite
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
Hi
Hammerlite is good, its the classic UK solution to a need for a tough
paint. But I really don't know about its rust killing properties,
advertised and supposedly there but I've not been convinced that it
can really be painted reliably over rust.
Perhaps my problem is a dislike of Hammerlite in that I painted it on
zinc without an etching primer and it was decidedly flakey after that,
ie came off easily. But I note the comments about indestructability on
a bumper (fender?) that was in a recent message. I have a couple of
spray cans of Hammerlite in my apt now, waiting to coat a filing
cabinet.
For your information Hammerlite comes in the hammered finished and a
smooth finish. You need a special Hammerlite solvent. Second and later
coats don't go on easily, but there may be strict time constraints as
to when you caqn layer them on.
I'd really go for the POR-15 route having done some recent
investigation. But remember that POR is UV light sensitive and needs a
topcoat. POR do make a top coat but you can use lots of different
ones. The phone number for POR (New Jersey) is lurking around in two
messages in the archives.
m
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:42:54 +0000
From: "Ian Archibald"
Subject: Painting products: recommendations?
To: tlcal@tlca.org
For those who have, willingly or not, followed my saga, I'm slowly
getting to work on painting my FJ40 doors and hardtop. Still got a
coupla quick queries, though...
I've bought my paint and primer, with hardeners and reducers. And my
compressor and paint gun. Great, I'm getting excited.
But, I've got three products left on my list: Laquer Thinner, Body
Filler, and De-rusting agent. My question is, can I pick these up
|from Canadian Tire (local budget hardware/auto-parts store, for our
Canadian-challenged viewers) or should I get "professional" products
|from an autobody supplier? Some details:
For body filler, I'm going to use short-hair premixed fiberglass
putty stuff. I need something that's strong, waterproof, and can be
built up then shaped with a sander. The bottom corner of one front
door is rusted away, so I figure on welding in a thin piece of steel
plate then building up the shape with the fiberglass.
For de-rusting prior to priming, I've been recommended a product
called Rust-Not (?), although I haven't looked for it yet.
Apparently, you first remove loose rust, then paint on a couple of
coats of Rust-Not before priming, and it turns any remaining rust
into some chemically inert black metallic compound, which you then
paint over with your primer.
Comments, anyone?
- - Ian
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:44:44 +0000
From: sbever@jeffnet.org
Subject: Painting products: recommendations?
To: tlcal@tlca.org
>
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:42:54 +0000
> From: "Ian Archibald"
> Subject: Painting products: recommendations?
> To: tlcal@tlca.org
>
> For those who have, willingly or not, followed my saga, I'm slowly
> getting to work on painting my FJ40 doors and hardtop. Still got a
> coupla quick queries, though...
>
> I've bought my paint and primer, with hardeners and reducers. And my
> compressor and paint gun. Great, I'm getting excited.
>
> But, I've got three products left on my list: Laquer Thinner, Body
> Filler, and De-rusting agent. My question is, can I pick these up
> |from Canadian Tire (local budget hardware/auto-parts store, for our
> Canadian-challenged viewers) or should I get "professional" products
> |from an autobody supplier? Some details:
I bought "proffesional" from the autobody shop. A gallon of medium
lacquer thinner is under $10; slow is only about $7, I think Rust-Not
can be had virtually anywhere (department store even); shop around (if
you still plan to use it after reading the rest of this post), it's
price seems to fluctuate depending on the dealer. *Be sure* to also buy
wax/grease remover and use a two hand method (one wet cloth, wipe on;
dry cloth, wipe off) for cleaning before tacking and shooting. You also
*need* a water filter on the end of your hose right before your gun; a
disposable filter is about 5 bucks; without it you'll probably shoot
plenty of water (from compressor condensation) with your paint. I have
painted in 90+ degree weather and water still forms. Got a respirator
and one of those $1.50 head covers?
If you haven't already, visit
http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/faqs/paint.html for some general info on
painting.
> For body filler, I'm going to use short-hair premixed fiberglass
> putty stuff. I need something that's strong, waterproof, and can be
> built up then shaped with a sander. The bottom corner of one front
> door is rusted away, so I figure on welding in a thin piece of steel
> plate then building up the shape with the fiberglass.
I'd suggest welding in the metal and working it so that you can use a
*very limitied* amount of filler if any at all. Consider shooting a
urethane sandable filler over your (epoxy) primer (which goes on the
bare metal) for filling surface imperfections, like wire wheel marks or
80 grit sand marks, instead of body filler.
> For de-rusting prior to priming, I've been recommended a product
> called Rust-Not (?), although I haven't looked for it yet.
> Apparently, you first remove loose rust, then paint on a couple of
> coats of Rust-Not before priming, and it turns any remaining rust
> into some chemically inert black metallic compound, which you then
> paint over with your primer.
>
> Comments, anyone?
>
I was/am extremely wary of rust converting products. I did not want to
trust Rst-Not, Rust-Mort, or anyone else's rust conversion products. I
would welcome other's comments on this stuff. Basically, I just said
no.
Instead, I completed stripped rust using a sanding disk or one of those
3M spider-web-donuts (rolex?) everywhere I could on exposed body areas.
I then used a catalyzed epoxy primer (NOT lacquer primer) followed by a
urethane sandable filler (NOT lacquer primer) and then a catalyzed
acrylic enamel (although I might use urethane topcoat next time).
In the rear wheel wells, before undercoating with a rubberized
undercoat, and on the frame and other places like radiator mounts and
completely rusted bell housings, I wire brushed all loose material,
cleaned with high pressure water, then used a wax and grease remover
before applying a product called POR-15. This stuff sticks to rust
(and other properly prep'd surfaces), and, *it really works*. It also
is rock hard after it cures (in about 3 hours) and can't be resolved
even with lacquer thinner (my hands are still black). Be sure to use a
topcoat if the area is exposed to sun as it is UV sensitive and prep any
non-rusted bare metal with their etching zinc soak or it won't stick
well. POR-15 (and it's topcoats, etc...) can be found through ads
placed in car mags or email me for the phone number--I could find it for
you if you can't. It is also in the ORD digest archives.
> - - Ian
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:48:18 +0000
From: sbever@jeffnet.org
Subject: POR-15 vs Hammerlite
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 12:25:06 BST
> From: Mark van Harmelen
> Subject: POR-15 vs Hammerlite
> To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
> Hi
>
> Hammerlite is good, its the classic UK solution to a need for a tough
> paint. But I really don't know about its rust killing properties,
> advertised and supposedly there but I've not been convinced that it
> can really be painted reliably over rust.
Does anyone know if Hammerlite is resolvable with common automotive
byproducts like gasoline, oil, and grease. Most of the rattle can
engine and hi temp enamels I've tested can be resolved with with
gasoline. POR-15 can't be resolved even with lacquer thinner only hours
after application!
> I'd really go for the POR-15 route having done some recent
> investigation. But remember that POR is UV light sensitive and needs a
> topcoat. POR do make a top coat but you can use lots of different
> ones. The phone number for POR (New Jersey) is lurking around in two
> messages in the archives.
I've used POR-15 and like it. It sticks to rust (better than to
anything else) and seems like it is rock hard. I am not as happy with
their topcoat, which sticks wonderfully to the POR-15 but seems to be
almost like a hard yet flexible plastic coating. It does not stick well
to other paint or to metal or to hammerlite for that matter (yes I
scuffed and used wax/grease remover first).
I am very interested in what topcoats will work with the POR-15
basecoat. The literature indicates that enamels and lacquers work well.
I'd rather use something stronger like urethane as a topcoat. Does
anyone have experience with what topcoats work best with the POR-15
basecoat? Less importantly, has anyone used lacquer thinner for
thinning when spraying, or is the POR-15 solvent a must?
> m
Scott
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:36:24 +0000
From: "Ian Archibald"
Subject: Need some painting tips
To: alleb439@utkux.utcc.utk.edu, tlcal@tlca.org
Hi Zayd,
I just finished painting the doors to my FJ40. I was a total novice
with no equipment when I started, and I'm pretty proud of the end
result. I didn't become an expert doing it, but I might be able to
offer you "fellow novice" advice. I also referred to the Haynes
body repair and painting guide, and I recommend it.
EQUIPMENT:
Personally, I used the paint job as an excuse to
buy a compressor and paint gun. With hoses and taxes and everything
else, that cost me $800 CDN (about $560 US). I can't comment on
renting gear, although I'm glad I had my own. The blow gun was very
useful for cleaning stuff, and the job took much longer than I
anticipated - I had to do lots of patching, sanding, and repainting
of both the primer and colour coats, often waiting several days for
it to dry. So renting the equipment would have been a nightmare.
But if everything goes well first try (HAH!) then you could get away
with it.
ADVICE:
Which leads to the next piece of advice that I received, used, and
am now passing on - PATIENCE! Do *not* rush. You will screw up and
make the job even longer. This applies to the prep work - sanding,
sanding, cleaning, sanding, cleaning, and more sanding - and also to
the paint job itself - try to put too thick a layer on, and it'll
run for sure. Paint over primer that isn't _quite_ dry, and it'll go
all wrinkly and you'll have to let everything dry, sand everything
off, and start again from scratch. It bites.
RUST:
My doors had rust holes in 'em which I dealt with. I removed all the
rust with a wire-brush attachment on my drill, treated the area with
some acid product (No-Rust, maybe? I forget the name), then sprayed
anti-rust priming paint over the spots. I have no idea if it all
worked - it looks great now, but ask me again in five years. :)
FILLER:
I used a fair bit of fiberglass filler, and glazing putty, for
various jobs. In the end, I didn't use enough. Basically, *any*
scratch, dent, or uneven spot WILL show up clearly, even though 3
layers of primer and 3 layers of colour. Your surface must be GLASSY
smooth before you spray the first coat of paint. Any spot repairs
must be feathered into the surrounding panel with infinite patience.
I figured my nice, thick, sandable surfacer/primer would cover up a
few _tiny_ flaws. It didn't. So I figured that I could use glazing
(spot) putty (comes in a tube like toothpaste) to fill flaws, then
sand a bunch, then spray some more primer, then sand again, then the
flaws would be gone. They weren't. Don't get me wrong, I took a lot
of time and effort and I did get it mostly perfect, but some flaws
still show though. It's amazing. So, when you think you have that
dent filled and sanded well enough, keep filling and sanding a few
more times, and a few more after that, if you want a flawless job in
the end. If the tip of your most sensitive finger can feel so much
as a ripple, scratch, hollow or lump, then it WILL show though at the
end.
CLEANING:
I read in books about using using wax/grease removers, but I couldn't
find any for sale, and the guys I talked to in the paint shops said
they just use laquer-thinner to clean/prep the surface. Which I did,
and it seemed to work fine. But I agree with the common advice: you
can never get the surface too clean. When in doubt, clean again.
When you're sure it's clean, clean it one more time. I used a clean
rag (yep, I bought nice new rags) damp with laquer thinner (wearing
rubber gloves), then immediately wiped that off with a clean dry rag,
and used the blow gun to get rid of any lint or dust left over. I
did this process before spraying the primer and again before spraying
the colour coats.
PAINT:
I used pretty expensive primer and paint - a high-build sandable
surfacer/primer (with hardener and reducer to mix in) and acrylic
urethane top coat (again, with hardener and reducer). It cost me
about $200-$300 CDN for the paint, to do 4 doors (both sides).
ADVICE:
Get a decent filter mask (not the cheap paper disposable kind) for
the sanding and painting, and USE IT. Both the fine sanding "dust"
and the wet paint are *deadly* to inhale for any length of time.
RUNS:
The bane of my painting existance was runs in the paint. No matter
how thin or even I tried to spray my paint, I always ended up with
runs. I heard you can remove 'em with a small paint brush if you
notice 'em in time, but it always left a mark when I tried. Okay
for hidden surfaces, but no good for the middle of a flat panel.
Instead, you have to wait a few days for the paint to dry, then sand
the whole area down, and repaint the spot. In fact, mostly I had to
repaint the whole door, cuz whenever I tried to touch up one spot,
the paint had a different texture than the rest of the panel, and it
looked funny. I ended up getting so frustrated with the runs that I
mixed the paint extra thick and cranked up the pressure for the
spray gun - that actually worked, and I could spray thicker layers
without runs, but the texture changed again.
TEXTURE:
I'm sure the final texture (glassy smooth or orange-peeled, as the
case may be) is a function of a million things: how well you sand,
how thick you mix your paint, the ambient temperature, how thick you
spray on the layers, the quality of your spray gun, etc etc etc.
Suffice to say my doors have a grainy texture from the overspray
(when I was touching up at the end) that gets in the air then settles
on *everything*. But the colour is rich and even, so I'm sure (in
several months when the paint has reached full hardness) that a good
layer of car wax will give it the shine it needs.
CONCLUSION:
Yikes, this turned into an essay. Good thing I type fast. Feel free
to ask me any other questions - stupid ones especially. I'm no
expert, so the stupider the question, the better my chances of
answering it. Maybe someone else can learn from my mistakes, and get
as good a paint job (or better) in half the time.
FINAL NOTE ABOUT DOOR HARDWARE:
I replaced all my rubber weather stripping and the felt window runner
that lines the roll-up front windows. I used buy-it-by-the-foot
generic replacement, which was 1/4 the cost of OEM replacement, and
it works great so far. And I rebuilt all the hinges with new pins
and bushings. So if anyone has any questions about that, feel free
to ask, but this message is long enough already.
- - Ian
________________________________________
/ email to iarchiba@Engr.UVic.CA /
/__ http://www.engr.uvic.ca/~iarchiba __/
______ ___ __ __
/_ __/ / | / |/ / Graduate Student
__/ /_ / _| | / / Mechanical Engineering
/___A_R C_H I_B/A/L_D/ University of Victoria, CANADA
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 11:44:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steve Helmreich
Subject: Painting tips (no one else has mentioned)
To: TLCAL@tlca.ORG
More Land Cruiser painting tips:
- Check out three books from your public library on auto
painting, and memorize the contents.
- Buy disposable water filters - 2/$6. They have a
clear case and the media changes color when saturated.
Buy at least four. They thread on (inline) to air tools
- Ask a junkyard for 2-3 damaged body panels - hoods are best.
Most will give them to you. Prep and paint them, play with
spray patterns/flows. Learn, learn, learn. Then return
the panels to the same junkyard, either because they want
them back, or your garbageman won't take them ;-). Much
better put a paint run on a wrinkled Nissan Stanza fender
than your precious TLC fender!
- Don't go down to bare metal if the orig. LC primer/paint is in
good shape. You have to be very good to beat factory primer
for adhesion/rust protection (with some exceptions).
- Chemically strip the outside of the windshield frame (after
pulling the glass). I put on 20 coats of primer, and still
couldn't fill the rock chips. Same for the leading edge of
the hood and front headlight fascia panel.
- It took me 80 hours of prep and paint time to achieve a nice,
amateur paint job. Much better than Maaco, gets compliments,
and 5 years later, looks great. I used PPG Centauri (sp?)
Acrylic Enamel mixed to 1978 Toyota 'Tobacco' (brown/green).
- Talk to body shops when they're not busy, and if you find a
sympathetic painter, you can ask him questions, and get a gold
mine of information. Most will share info. if you are sincere
and ask relevent and specific questions.
- I removed all four doors and the windshild frame and painted
them flat, on sawhorses. It cut down on the potential for paint
runs, but required exquisite masking of the car and panels.
I removed light overspray from inside the truck for weeks!
- As other said, be patient, and inspect the primer very well
before touching the color gun. Buy some 'indicator coat' (or
cheap black paint) and lightly paint, then sand, your bondo
areas. The sanding will reveal the high spots much better than
spotlights at funny angles will.
steve
------------------------------
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