Brakes
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:24:45 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: rear brakes on 86 pickup
To: tlcal@tlca.org
>MY rear brake shoes on my truck look brand new even after 50,000 miles of on
>road driving but my front pads are worn out. I've bled the system many times
>but just can't seem to get the rear to react as well as the front. I have a
>body lift only and don't see hoe that could be the culprit, plesase help.
It sounds like to me, you need to adjust your proportioning (sp?) valve.
- jack
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:45:04 -0500
From: "Jay Kopycinski-RYNA10"
Subject: rear brakes on 86 pickup
To: "TLCAL@tlca.org%azbcsm1"
Subject: Time: 11:44 AM
OFFICE MEMO rear brakes on 86 pickup Date: 9/19/96
Mike P wrote:
>MY rear brake shoes on my truck look brand new even after 50,000 miles of on
>road driving but my front pads are worn out. I've bled the system many times
>but just can't seem to get the rear to react as well as the front. I have a
>body lift only and don't see hoe that could be the culprit, plesase help.
This is typical on Toy trucks. Your rear proportioning valve may not
be adjusted correctly. You can disconnect the arm from the rear axle
and wire it up high (max pressure to the rear) and test the braking
to see if this makes any difference.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
------------------------------
Island Run a FourRunner owner [Oh, and
that's a *Brand New* 4Runner, too] had the lovely experience of finding out
just how effective ABS is on muddy hills in reverse.
Poor old Matt (last name and email address removed to protect us from a
shower of profanity about ABS effectiveness off-road) and his wife and
Brand New 4Runner were attempting to ascend the infamous Gas-It Hill. Matt
made beautiful work of the approach to the hill up the tight and rough hard
left-hand corner around the right through the small washed-out section and
up and over the 2 foot tall root and rock stair step to the "launching pad"
of Gas-It Hill. The "launching pad" is a short section, about 5 or 6 metres
long, where one must either finesse their way up the hill with
ARBs-a-leakin and MTs-a-diggin' or, lacking superior traction, take a
throttle jockey run at the hill hoping that the vehicle will crest the hill
40 metres later. [40 metres later the obstacle becomes the downhill section
which is not too bad with gravity at your heels! or is that wheels...?]
Matt's 4Runner's V6 roared to life with fuel injected efficiency as he sat
on the launching pad mustering courage to ascend the hill. Much confidence
gained after two and a half days of successful 4wheeling with the Island
Rock Crawlers. The shifter clicked neatly into First, Low. A few thousand
revs appeared on the tacho and the clutch was released. The exhaust let out
a beautiful itact-exhaust-system-kind-of-a-growl as the truck clawed its
way up the first few metres to a small, and barely noticebale, step in the
muddy terrain where a slippery-as-Sh_t root hid (it's a family show here)
under the loose, wet soil. The 'Runner careened over to one side of the
trail, avoided a stump and slid back down to the launching pad with cool
control.
Attempt number two: A little more throttle. A little more speed. A little
further up the hill. A little faster slide to the bottom. Very Cool driver
control. Was the infamous Gas-It Hill going to defeat a bone stock, brand
new, 'Runner?? Not if Matt could help it! He had elegantly piloted his
brand new 'Runner with nary a tug this far and was NOT gonna' let this hill
get the best of him and his brand new 'Runner.
Matt positioned for his third attempt. A little flustered, perhaps, that
his able 'Runner had only make it about 12 metres up the hill.
But not too flustered, as Rod Fletcher's fr/rr Dana 60 and Detroited,
spring-over V8J40 with 38.5" Swampers had got the hook and had only made as
far as Matt had just been...
Sweat beads forming on his brow, Matt set himself up for the third attempt.
He knew about the root and little stair step. He knew about the slighlty
off-camber spot a little way further up. He knew that the best [worst?!]
was yet to come near the top where he would have to go a quick left and
then a right around another one of those slipperly little roots, crest a
step, and go over the top...
My BJ42 idled with a cofident rattle as the trusty 24V 8274 awaited another
victim of the Gas-It Hill... Matt was about to get the dreaded hook! ...or
was he!?
He throttled it up nicely, hit the first root and swung way over to the
left towards the uphill bank, then went to the right with an
over-correction....getting too near the edge on the right he planted the
brake pedal firmly to avoid the big rotten Douglas Fir stump [yeah, it's
BIG] that he was fast approaching. He missed it! Phew! ...But what's this?
The 'Runner isn't stopping?! The Crowd screamed for him to "HIT THE
BRAKES," Larry Soo ran, like a man possesed, for cover [or is that like "a
man with a wicked hang-over..." ?], the others stood at the foot of the
launching pad as the 4Runner gained speed in the WRONG direction...towards
*them*. Larry had the right idea.
|From my view at the top of the hill [with winch cable in hand, as always]
I was wondering why I had left my first aid kit at home...Naw it wouldn't
matter anyhow. What would a coouple of pre-war era Bad-Aids do for a crowd
of 15? Not a lot. Matt, in what seemed a heroic effort, slid his
accelerating 4Runner off the right side of the trail, not far from the
launching pad, into a BIG mother stump. A BIG mother ROTTEN stump. The
*Crunch* was defeaning. Maybe not so "loud" deafening but
"Band-New-4Runner-deafening."
The air was still. All was VERY silent, TOO silent....for a micro second
anyhow...
What followed is best described by Larry Soo: [a quote from our Island Trip
report at: http://apertos0.csc.UVic.CA/~brycerw/4x4.html]
"I was standing on the launching pad and
saw the 4Runner start to pick up speed so I did too...I lept off
the launch pad and ran behind the trees as fast as I could. When I
heard the sickening B-A-N-G from Matt's truck, I turned around and
saw that he had just barely missed running into a tree. Even more
incredible, everyone else who was on the launch pad was still
standing there! (I can't believe they didn't run for cover.) At
that point, Matt got out of the truck, slammed the door, and
started to swear at his truck's ABS system. Now, I've heard lots
of swear words in my time but I've never heard them spoken so
LOUDLY and with such fine enunciation. Apparently, when Matt tried
to use his brakes, they worked for a little bit and then the pedal
stopped solid after only a couple of inches of travel. That's when
the brakes let go and Matt went for his wild ride. Fortunately,
the damage to the 4Runner was surprisingly mild. He dented his
tailgate, bumper and a small portion of his rear quarter panel.
The signal lights and even the tailgate window (which was rolled
down inside the gate) were still intact. Needless to say, his
wife, Wendy piloted the 4Runner as it got winched up the hill."
It turns out he hadn't intended to miss the launching pad and save the
spectators [and some soon to be victims] of Gas-It Hill...it was all
unintentional. Thanks Matt, now we know how you really feel about us...
Uh yes, now where was I?? Oh...ABS brakes and four-wheeling.
Hmmm...it seems that the ABS brake system senses vehicle movement by
measuring wheelspin, and proportions the brakes according to the input that
it receives from each wheel to minnmize slippage and provide optimum
braking. Well if one wheel is found to be still and the other moving then
the still wheel is "locked" and the truck is actually still moving
[according to the input from the spinning wheel] so the theory is to
release the locked wheel, stop the spinning one and then remodulate the
released wheel [once it has gained traction again] to stop. The speed at
which this happens is very fast. Works well in theory. And on tractable,
level ground.
The problem in the fourwheeling environment is that, especially while going
backwards, the sensors are not getting "correct" information because of low
traction and muddy terrain. Modulating the brakes is a dead loss. Their
search for good tractable ground is going to be fruitless as none exists.
The wheel that is being braked by the ABS is going to be released again in
such short order, as it adds nothing to stopping the vehicle because it
locks up so fast [remeber: sensed "lock-up" in ABS computer logic means
"release it again" if another wheel is spinning] that there is, in essence,
NO braking at all.
Part of the compounding symphony of ABS errors, that caught Matt of guard,
is that when going backwards down a steep muddy hill the weight transfer of
the truck and lack of grippy terrain means that your ABS will, in essence,
provide you with a nice firm pedal and no brakes at all...Actually not no
brakes, but no stopping power.
Oh man am I glad my ancient pre-ABS LC has got good old fashioned brakes
that stop my truck RIGHT NOW.
Did I remember to mention that Matt's 4Runner *was* new??
j. {I am no expert on ABS. But I have seen and read/heard enough about it
failings off-road to know to pull the fuse when in 4WD)
>On 2 Oct 96 at 14:13, Tony Andersen wrote:
>
>> |from the Australian Financial Review 2 Oct 199 (our baby wall street
>>journal)
>> *
>> Thought for today:
>>
>> "When without warning, you find yourself sliding down the muddy hill
>> of stress whilst all around is the untamed jungle of despair, you'll be
>> chuffed knowing you have ABS that's bypassed at low speed when you're in
>> low range for better bracking." Another thought from Toyota LandCruiser
>> Prado.
>
>Do I read this right that they are complaining about ABS-shutoff in
>low range?
>Sjeez....it's never right, is it?
>Did they ever consider the fact that ABS is useless anyway since
>the center diff is locked in low range, and the rear axle might be locked
>as well?
>Some guys really shouldn't be let near a pencil or keyboard....
jbarron@uvic.ca
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:52:18 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron)
Subject: Brake Booster test sequence
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
On vehicle inspection:
1 check air tightness
- - start engine
- - Stop engine after running for 1-2 minutes
2 pump brake pedal several times.
- -If pedal goes down deep the first time but gradually rises after the 2nd
and 3rd times, it is in good condition. :-)
3 If there is no change in the pedal height when depressed the 2nd and
succesive time it is defective. :-(
Check the operation:
1 With the engine stopped, pump the brake pedal several times with the same
pressure. Ensure that the pedal height does not change.
2 Start the engine while the brake pedal is depressed, place one tablet of
prozacs into the brake fluid reservoir and see if the brakes recover from
their depression. No really, If the pedal goes down slightly at this time,
it is in good condition. If there is no change in pedal height, it is
defective. :-(
Check air tightness under load:
1 With the engine running, depress the brake pedal.
Then stop the engine while keeping the brake pedal depressed.
2 Hold the pedal for 30 seconds. If the pedal height does not change, it is
in good condition. :-)
If the pedal rises, it is defective. :-(
- --From the Toyota Land Cruiser Repair Manual
j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:48:57 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt
Subject: Disk Brakes
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
In message <199610150001.OAA02994@unix.off-road.com>, pigpen@ecst.csuchico.edu
writes:
>I recently converted the drums brakes on my 71 cruiser to disks using
>toyota pick up parts. The brakes are vacuum assisted. I was recently told
>that I can use either a pre-85 or a toyota pick up master cylinder to
>complete my conversion(thanks go out to Rob Mullen). I now want to convert
>the rear to disk brakes. I think I read somewhere in one of these news
>letters that it can be accomplished by using chevy parts. I have alco seen
>conversions advertised in the back of magazines that go for around $279.
Been there, done that.
>My questions are:
>
> 1)Will the pick up/supra master cylinder be a direct bolt on?
Yes, although IMHO you want to use a tandem M/C off a drum brake
'Cruiser with a 1" bore to compensate for the increased fluid
displacement of the GM calipers compared to the stock wheel cylinders.
Remove the residual pressurevalves to avoid problems, and perhaps
install a "front" reservoir on the rear circuit.
>Will
>it be any cheaper than using a master cylinder from a tlc w/ disk brakes?
Arround here the boneyard prices are pretty much the same for any
Toyota.
> 2)Will i have to add a proportioning valve when I add the rear
>disks?
Yes. The GM calipers have a lot more effective area than the
Toyota fronts, so you want to cut the pressure they see.
The easiest way to do this is to use an adjustable proportioning valve
set a bit above minimal cross over pressure in the rear brake circuit,
after the Toyota disc brake valve (I played with mine in an empty
parking lot until the front consistantly locked a bit before the rear).
> 3)Can I get a part list for the rear disk conversion using the
>chevy parts?
Unless you have access to a machine shop, I'd
go with the TSM kit for $250, which includes machined GM truck rotors,
custom mounting brackets, and grade 8 hardware.
You'll also need calipers (I told the NAPA guy '83 Montecarlo), pads, and
screws for about $100. I went with hoses from the same application
for $19 a side. A Wilwood proportioning valve
was about $60. Throw in another ten bucks for shim stock
(the axle flanges were a bit warped) and brake fluid; and you can get
by for arround $450.
- --
Home Page
By using the following line in your .sig, you violate 18 USC 1462, committing
a class D felony, good for up to 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine:
Planned Parenthood provides information on abortions.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:59:17 +0000
From: "Mike Graham"
Subject: Disk Brakes
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
> 2)Will i have to add a proportioning valve when I add the rear
> disks?
I don't know the answer to this one, but I'd love to. I don't
think you would because the rear brakes were still hydraulic before
the conversion.
> 3)Can I get a part list for the rear disk conversion using the
> chevy parts?
There are two kinds of chev calipers normally used depending on
whether you are using an e-brake on the wheels or not. Personally, I
think if you're doing the conversion you should seriouly consider
relocating the e-brakes to the wheels and forgetting about that
godawful t-case e-brake. Anyway, the conversion kits out of
magazines give you honking big adapter plates that allow you to bolt
on either Monte Carlo calipers ('78-'83 vintage) or El Dorado
calipers ('79-'85) with the e-brake lever. Anyway, I only know about
the TSM kit, but it includes new vented rotors, the brackets and
bolts, the calipers are optional (you can buy them from them, or you
can get junkers or re-man). There is some hassle involved. You need
brake line that has a metric fitting (10mm x 1.25 (standard Toyota)
and 3/8-20 on the other (std. GM)).
Anyway, the only real drag I see doing the swap is that the GM
calipers aren't the greatest. They *work*, but they're sliding
single-piston calipers, so you'll want to grease up the caliper pins
*real* good so they don't seize later on in life. I've got a lot of
info on the TSM kit, so let me know if you need more info.
> 4)Would it be worth it just to order a conversion out of a
> magazine?
Yes. Unless you do machining and can fabricate the mounting
brackets yourself.
[----------------]
Mike Graham or ; ,
1981 BJ42 24V diesel Land Cruiser "Chew Toy"
"It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas..."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:17:54 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt
Subject: Disk Brakes
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
In message <199610150307.RAA05449@unix.off-road.com>, mike@headwaters.com write
s:
>> 2)Will i have to add a proportioning valve when I add the rear
>> disks?
>
> I don't know the answer to this one, but I'd love to. I don't
>think you would because the rear brakes were still hydraulic before
>the conversion.
Based on my post-conversion parking lot experiments, if you use the
GM calipers and don't want your Land Cruiser swapping ends when you
brake hard in a turn, you need something in addition to the stock
valve.
>There is some hassle involved. You need brake line that has a metric
>fitting (10mm x 1.25 (standard Toyota)
1. The female threads on the rear axle brake fittings are somehwere between
8 and 9mm on old enough (mine left the factory in October, 1969 and had
the funky bits) Land Cruisers.
2. Where you do have 10 x 1.25 metric fittings, you can use Edelmann
adapters in combination with brake lines that have standard 3/8"-24
fittings.
3. In any event, you (or a local shop if you lack the double flaring tool
and tubing cutter) can chop one end off a standard brake line, slip
a metric fitting over that end, and re-flare.
> Anyway, the only real drag I see doing the swap is that the GM
>calipers aren't the greatest.
Although the engineering isn't as solid as the front Toyota parts, they're
still _substantially_ better than the Toyota
drum setup (in terms of ease and frequency of maintnance, braking power,
fade resistance (especially after they get wet!), looks...) and there's
something to be said for $20 something calipers available in any parts
store in the country.
>I've got a lot of
>info on the TSM kit, so let me know if you need more info.
I have a TSM kit installed on the rear axle of my 1970 FJ40,
and can share my first hand experiences :-)
- --
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:26:06 -0700
From: cruiser@akcache.com (Whatley,Mark)
Subject: '72 no brakes
To: tlcal@tlca.org
Clipped from previous post....
"I just bought a '72 fj-40 with bad brakes! I thought it was the master
cyclinder so a new one was put on today. After bleeding the brakes I
dicovered it isn't the master cylinder. It can be pumped up after 5 or
6 pumps of the petal but then fades. It feels like it has pressure
until halfway when it feels and sounds like something pops. Is this a
bad brake booster? Also when I pump the brakes it makes the engine
rough idle. Any help appreciated. "
Since you just bought a rig, I'll make a bit of an assumtion here,
and guess that it is your first Cruiser. ???????
Anyway, the drum brakes on your rig are NOT self adjusting. This often
gets overlooked. When the brakes are significantly out of adjustment (worn),
and the shoes therefore have excessive freeplay before contacting the drum,
it will often feel very much like a bad M/C. It can sometimes get so bad that
one of the slave cylinders will push the piston to, or beyond the end of the
bore, and loose pressure/fluid. Check the adjustment and shoe condition on
all of the drums. Check for any sign of fluid leakage from any of the slave
cylinders. Expect there to be a good chance of finding frozen adjusters, and
one or more leaking cylinders.
The rough idle caused by stepping on the brakes can be caused by a
leaking brake booster. Listen carefully for hissing from the booster, when
the brakes are not engaged, when they are, with the engine running and
immediately after it is shut down as well.
Does it continue to run rough for as long as you have the pedal depressed,
or just for a moment when you first step on it? The first condition is more
likely to indicate a vacum leak in the booster, while the second could also
be caused by other adjustment/tuning problems, or another leak, with the
vacum drawn by the booster just actentuating the condition.
Mark.....
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 16:31:13 -0700
From: Drew Eckhardt
Subject: TSM - who?
To: KBrunhaver@prodigy.com ( KURT W BRUNHAVER)
KBrunhaver@prodigy.com writes:
>Who or what is TSM in regard to disc brakes?
TSM is The Street rod Manufacturing company in Castle Rock,
Colorado. For the most part, they specialize in disc brakes of
all sorts - conversion kits for every solid axle made, to put
big cheap Chevy brakes on the Mustang II IFS assemblies used
in most street rods, etc.
>Appreciate a brief description and what kind of costs
>were involved for both a home installation vs. shop costs.
Unlike the front, putting disc brakes on the back is painless -
pretty much an afternoon's work at worst. A compilation of my posts
on the subject, incorporating parts lists and pricing, a few tidbits
of wisdom that made my life easier when I did the deed, etc. follows.
(Message outbox:79)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:11:12 -0700
From: Drew Eckhardt
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 19:38:01 MST
From: Drew Eckhardt
When converting to disks on the front or both ends, you'll need the
larger disk brake booster ($125 from a private party). For four wheel
disks, you want to use a 1" master cylinder to handle the additional
displacement of the rear calipers. Ie, a '71-9/'75 master cylinder,
with the folks at TSM recommending the 1/'75-9/'75 variant for no
particular reason ($60 from Blake's). Remove the residual pressure valves,
and use a front reservoir on the rear circuit.
For rear discs, I used the TSM (Don't have the number convienient,
they're in Castlerock, Colorado) kit. It's almost a bolt on, and for
$250 you get
- Mounting brackets, grade 8 bolts, lock washers, and
nuts.
- Modified (looks like the center hole was opened up
to match the stub on the 'cruiser axles)
11 9/16" x 1" 6 lug GM truck rotors
The kit uses small GM calipers (2.5" pistons), such as the fronts off of
'78-'83 Montecarlos, Malibus, etc. TSM will sell you calipers, screws,
and pads for $100 - go for it. I ended up spending about $10 more
before tax picking up the parts seprately elsewhere (I didn't think
caliper bolts would be nearly $6 a pop).
To get the calipers to clear the brackets, I had to take a hack saw
to a reinforcing rib on them and file off some casting flash. If
I had a grinder handy, it would have worked just as well and been
faster.
Installation is straightforward - essentially remove the
brake backing plates (this involves removing the axles,
which means yanking the differential inspection cover,
removing the pinion shaft and axle spacer, and popping the
C-clips off), put the rotors on with several lug nuts and
check for alignment, and install the mounting brackets / calipers
with the hardware provided.
You can have your rear axle appart in half an hour, just back
off the brake adjusters so the shoes clear the drums, hit the
axles in after the spacer is out to free the C-clips from the
grooves in the differential gears, and
After the axles are out, temporarily install the pinion shaft
WITHOUT the axle spacer. This will keep the pinion gears from
rotating and falling out when you reinstall the axles. Don't
remove it until the axles are in place, and you're ready to
install the C-clips and spacer.
While your rear axle is appart, it would be a good idea to replace
the differential inspection cover gasket, and maybe the oil seals.
All GM calipers are floating, not fixed. So, you can't run hard lines
all the way to the calipers, and will need to use hoses. I went with
'78 Monte front hoses from Checker, for about $19 a side.
The GM calipers have an effective piston area of about 9.8
square inches (4.9" of piston area, doubled because they're
floating), versus 5-6ish (can't remember, didn't have the
official specs, and couldn't get my dial caliper in a reasonable
position) for the Toyota calipers. Ie, if you don't do something,
brake balance will be heavily biased towards the rear, so you
need to use a proportioning valve or two.
To get things closer to optimal, I used a Willwood adjustable
unit ($60 from TSM, but you should be able to find one for $55).
Since a set point of 0 psi would pretty much balance brake torque at
all times, and you want more front brakes, I also used the stock '78 FJ40
valve ahead of the Willwood.
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 20:14:01 MDT
From: Drew Eckhardt
I have four wheel power disc brakes on my FJ40, and would HIGHLY
recommend the setup to anyone with an FJ40 willing to spend the time and
money. The brakes are powerful enough to pop your eyeballs out, don't have
fade problems, offer better pedal feel, and are inherently self-adjusting
(no more frozen adjusters!).
[ snip ]
In the back, there are several sources for kits. I went with a kit from
TSM (The Street Rod Manufacturing Co) in Castlerock, Colorado. The TSM
kit provides 11 9/16" x 1" 6 lug GM truck rotors, with the center opened
up to fit the center of the Landcruiser axle flange, and 3/8" steel mounting
brackets which fit small (2.5" bore) GM calipers (ie, front '78-'83
Montecarlo). Obviously, you also need the calipers and hoses to go with
the kit. I also suggest going with a 1" M/C (the disc brake M/C has a
7/8" bore, '75 M/C is 1", don't know about '71-'74), and strongly recommend
using an adjustable proportioning valve (the GM calipers are bigger than
the Toyota fronts, so you want to lower the pressure to them). The
TSM kit is a bolt on, with the only glitch being that you'll need
a dial indicator and base so you can shim the rotors to correct any warpage
in your axle flanges. The kits from TSM are $100 for brackets only or $250
for brackets + new rotors; but it comes to about $550 after you figure in
the other parts.
Edelman makes metric->english fitting adapters which can simplify the
plumbing, and let you use pre-flared parts store lines in an emergency.
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 1995 09:08:20 MDT
From: Drew Eckhardt
In message <9506011214.AA19262@prcrs.prc.com>, fwelland@prcrs.prc.com writes:
>By late summer I hope to be doing the front disc thing to my '75 FJ. Here
>is my ??
>>
>> IMHO, the pedal will be too low with anything smaller than 1" in
>> diameter if you swap on rear discs. With front discs only, a
>> 7/8" M/C was stock from the factory and works fine.
>
> I am currently planning on swapping a wheel to wheel assembly
>|from a '76. Basically, replace every thing brake related: including
>MC and booster from a '76 donor. However, I am keeping in mind possibly
>tossing in rear discs at a later time. You have mentioned that a 1"
>dual MC from my '75 is a 'better' solution than the 7/8" MC from a
>later model, if you do the rear disc thing. However you still need a
>later (>'76) model booster.
>
> 1. Will the '75 MC mate to a '76 booster?
Yes.
>Is that how you did yours?
Yes.
>What am I in for?
The outlet ports are in a different location than the other master
cylinders, so you'll need to fabricate a ~1 foot brake line between
the rear circuit outlet and proportioning valve inlet. TSM recommends junking
the residual pressure valves (not sure if they actually are residual pressure
valves - there's a small hole in the middle) too; this is trivial.
Otherwise, it's straight forward.
>
> 2. If I can do 1 above, whats the story about using 1" MC with
>front discs (stock), but retain my rear drums?
You'll have about a 30% increase in pedal effort compared with the stock
disc setup, and you'll only need to move the pedal 3/4 as far to get your
brakes to apply.
>Any forseable probs?
Works well for me.
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:17:54 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt
In message <199610150307.RAA05449@unix.off-road.com>, mike@headwaters.com write
s:
>> 2)Will i have to add a proportioning valve when I add the rear
>> disks?
>
> I don't know the answer to this one, but I'd love to. I don't
>think you would because the rear brakes were still hydraulic before
>the conversion.
Based on my post-conversion parking lot experiments, if you use the
GM calipers and don't want your Land Cruiser swapping ends when you
brake hard in a turn, you need something in addition to the stock
valve.
>There is some hassle involved. You need brake line that has a metric
>fitting (10mm x 1.25 (standard Toyota)
1. The female threads on the rear axle brake fittings are somehwere between
8 and 9mm on old enough (mine left the factory in October, 1969 and had the
funky bits) Land Cruisers.
2. Where you do have 10 x 1.25 metric fittings, you can use Edelmann
adapters in combination with brake lines that have standard 3/8"-24
fittings.
3. In any event, you (or a local shop if you lack the double flaring tool
and tubing cutter) can chop one end off a standard brake line, slip
a metric fitting over that end, and re-flare.
> Anyway, the only real drag I see doing the swap is that the GM
>calipers aren't the greatest.
Although the engineering isn't as solid as the front Toyota parts, they're
still _substantially_ better than the Toyota
drum setup (in terms of ease and frequency of maintnance, braking power,
fade resistance (especially after they get wet!), looks...) and there's
something to be said for $20 something calipers available in any parts
store in the country.
>I've got a lot of
>info on the TSM kit, so let me know if you need more info.
I have a TSM kit installed on the rear axle of my 1970 FJ40,
and can share my first hand experiences :-)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:28:49 -0600
From: Drew Eckhardt
>i've done all the work on converting the front end,
>now its time to work on the mastercylinder. my cruiser right now as it
>sits has the vacuum assist brakes. you said somrthing about removing the
>resiual pressure valve?
The residual pressure valves are little spring loaded deals hiding
inside your drum brake master cylinder (on the '75 unit I used, under
the big bolts with the centers that accept the 10 x 1.25mm brake
fittings for the front and rear circuits.)
You want them with drum brakes to keep a little pressure in the lines
so the return springs don't collapse the slave cylinders too far.
You don't want them with disc brakes because they'll interfere
with pad retraction, perhaps causing drag and obnoxious noises.
>what exactly should i do with the MC.
Try your existing M/C, but yank the residual pressure valves, and
consider using the larger disc-brake reservoirs for the end(s)
on which you have disc brakes.
>you also
>said something about an extra resevoir. can you go into anymore detail.
Disc brakes displace more fluid than drum brakes, so you might want
bigger reservoirs, (I used "front" Land Cruiser disc brake parts on boths
ends of my master cylinder). Remove the bolt holding the old reservoir
on, install the new one, and torque to spec.
>was told to use either a 77 or newer LC MC, a mini MC, or an 85 or older
>supra MC. can you please steer me in the right direction.
The newer Land Cruiser M/C has a 7/8" bore compared to the 1" bore
of the older units; which gives you a lower pedal pressure (discs
don't have servo assist as drums do) at the expense of more pedal
travel, poorer feel, and less total fluid displacement.
Assuming you're using a disc brake booster (which provides a
_lot_ more boost than the drum brake unit), IMHO you want the
older master cylinder for the better feel and added safety in
the event of a failure at one end (when one circuit goes
out, the piston has to hit the end of the M/C or the front piston
before you get brakes - using up a significant fraction of the
travel. With less travel needed after that, the larger bore
is less likely to run out, and therefore more likely to stop
you).
If you're using the drum brake booster, you probably want the
smaller master cylinder to keep pedal effort down; although I
wouldn't recommed using the drum brake booster.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:59:55 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Brake proportioning valve on a 62
To: tlcal@tlca.org
Rod wrote:
>The arm should have a small curve and if it's anything like the one on my
>old Toyota pickup it certainly wasn't bent further by accident, I don't know
>what it's made of but you could probably tie it in a knot and it would
>return to it's original shape!
I'll agree with that, my pickup seems to have no back brakes to speak of
either and I tried to purposefully reshape that arm and it keeps coming
back to it's original shape. Try disconnecting the arm and tying it up to
the underside of the truck to see if your proportioning valve is working
correctly. It turned out mine was but my shoes were out of adjustment and
not touching the drum at all ... with the arm tied up like that, if your
rear brakes are working correctly as is the prop. valve, you should be
able to easily lock up the rear brakes ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
------------------------------
Date: 2 Jan 1997 09:05:52 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: rear disc brakes
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:46 AM
OFFICE MEMO rear disc brakes Date: 1/2/97
TOM ROMPIES wrote:
> Rear disc brakes?
>I have a '91 4runner that I would like to add rear disc brakes to.
>I have heard that Downey is in the process of desining a kit with a due
>date of spring of '97. I would like to know if anyone knows of any others
>or of a home made setup. I would like to get some more stopping power
>since my runner seems alittle on the weak side in the brake department.
>I am currently running rancho pads on it which helped a little
>(definetly worth the extra few bucks) and have considerd going to drilled
>roters up front.
Not sure if you can count on Downey coming out with the disc kit.....they
had been saying it was coming out in February 1996.
I didn't feel like waiting, and I wasn't going to pay $600+ for the kit,
so I came up with my own homemade rear disc conversion.
I use Cadillac calipers and Chevy vented rotors. The system works well
but the calipers require a lot of fluid. When I get some time, I will swap
my original master cylinder with a larger bore FJ40 unit.
I swapped to gain more braking for my 33s on the street and also provide
more downhill trail braking for my auto tranny (little compression braking).
Benefits on a 4Runner should be even greater given the more equal weight
distribution (4Runner vs. truck).
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 12:09:07 -0500
From: John Skaggs
Subject: Vented Rotors
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Jack or Jay,
I can't remember which one of you put the vented rotor swap on your page,
but thanks. I did this swap over the weekend, along with new rear shoes
and wheel cylinders. It took me a full day but it was worth it.
One thing I couldn't believe though, was that NAPA charged me $67.50 core
for the calipers when the new caliper itself cost $65.00 .
BTW, to anyone else that does this project. I had to grind a little metal
off one of the bolt hole flanges on the right side caliper. Other than that
it is a direct bolt up procedure. Also those cone washers were hell to get
out. I had NAPA press the lugs for me, they only charged $1.00 ea. Well
worth it to me.
Thanks Jack or Jay
John
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:22:15 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Vented Rotors
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
John Skaggs wrote:
>Jack or Jay,
>
>I can't remember which one of you put the vented rotor swap on your page,
>but thanks.
It was me, Jack. No problem, glad somebody could use it.
>I did this swap over the weekend, along with new rear shoes
>and wheel cylinders. It took me a full day but it was worth it.
>One thing I couldn't believe though, was that NAPA charged me $67.50 core
>for the calipers when the new caliper itself cost $65.00 .
How much were you rotors ??
>BTW, to anyone else that does this project. I had to grind a little metal
>off one of the bolt hole flanges on the right side caliper. Other than that
>it is a direct bolt up procedure. Also those cone washers were hell to get
>out. I had NAPA press the lugs for me, they only charged $1.00 ea. Well
>worth it to me.
I didn't write it up but I had to grind just a bit off of my caliper because
it was just touching my rim, besides that everything else just bolted up.
Yeah, Like I said in that writeup, it took wailing and gnashing of teeth
to drive some of those lugs out.
- jack
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 11:58:09 -0500
From: John Skaggs
Subject: Vented Rotors
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>How much were you rotors ??
- jack
I shopped around, and got quotes from Toyota, Napa, and Autozone
Toyota wanted $76.12 ea. for rotors, and $112.00!ea. +20.00 ea. core for
Calipers but I wasn't looking for GOLD plated calipers unbelievable!!
Napa wanted $99.00!! ea. for rotors, and $49.99 ea. + get this $67.50!! ea.
core for calipers(I bought these calipers).
Autozone wanted $60.94 ea. for rotors (I got these rotors) No calipers avail.
John
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:43:52 -0800
From: Locke Christman
Subject: Toyota Brake questions
To: "'toy4x4@tlca.org'"
I have an '80 4x4 pickup. For some time now I have noticed that the
rear brakes will lock up when I come to a slow rolling stop. They do
not seem to lock (or it is not noticeable) when I make a quick stop or
press hard on the pedal. I have replaced and adjusted and re-adjusted
the shoes but it persists. The Haynes manual has some suggestions for
possible causes, one of which is a faulty brake proportioning valve.
However they say that it should not be serviced by a backyard mechanic
and pretty much leave it at that.
Can anyone provide an explanation of how the proportioning valve works
and how to service it, or some references?
Also, I have recently noticed that the brake pedal slowly drops to the
floor when sitting at a stop with my foot on it. Could this be related
to the proportioning valve, or is it more likely a master cylinder?
Otherwise the brakes work fine for now and the fluid level has not
dropped.
Thanks in advance for any assistance or advice.
Locke
Locke Christman
FEI Company
Hillsboro, OR
lac@feico.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:24:43 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Toyota Brake questions
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Locke Christman wrote:
>
> I have an '80 4x4 pickup. For some time now I have noticed that the
> rear brakes will lock up when I come to a slow rolling stop. They do
> not seem to lock (or it is not noticeable) when I make a quick stop or
> press hard on the pedal.
>
> Can anyone provide an explanation of how the proportioning valve works
> and how to service it, or some references?
I'm no brake expert, but I think it would be the proportioning valve.
The valve is mounted to the underside of your bed, and the part that
moves is attatched to one end of a thick wire, the other end of the wire
is attatched to the axle of your truck. As you change the heigth of
your truck (by loading or unloading it) the distance from the axel to
the bottom of your bed increaeses or decreases, and therefore the angle
of the wire between the bed and axle changes. The change in angle moves
the valve, and adjusts the braking power between the front and back. If
you've got a load in the bed, the rear brakes should be working harder,
than if your bed is empty.
***For All*** you also need to take this into consideration if your
truck is lifted. The easiest way I know of to keep the valve working as
it was ment to, is to raise the point where the wire attatches to the
axle the same amount as your lift in the rear. I have a 2" lift, so I
used a piece of angle-iron and raise that point 2".
My advice would be to have a shop who really knows brakes look at it.
Good luck,
Scott
- --
Scott A. Wilson __o __o __o __o
Santa Clara, CA _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_
swilson@pacbell.net (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_)
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 13 Mar 1997 09:24:10 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Toyota Brake questions
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:45 AM
OFFICE MEMO Toyota Brake questions Date: 3/13/97
Locke Christman wrote:
>Can anyone provide an explanation of how the proportioning valve works
>and how to service it, or some references?
The proportioning valve is used to sense load in the bed and
increase fluid pressure (braking) to the rear axle when the bed
is loaded. The valve is mounted to the frame, under the bed
and senses changes in bed ride height by a rod that goes to the
rear axle.
Both the front and rear master cylinder lines are routed to the
prop valve and the valve balances pressure between the front
and rear brake lines as needed.
Whenever a lift is added, the rod end mounted to the axle
should be relocted upward the same distance as the height
of the lift.
When bleeding your brakes, there is a bleed screw on the prop
valve that should be bled as well. Can't remember the order
in which it is bled, but the manual describes it.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 13:02:50 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Brake Calipers
To: " - (052)Jughead (a) 141.com"
> I also have a question about Jack Alford's article on the vented rotor
> swap for '79-'85 solid axles. He said to use '81+ FJ40 rotors and '86
> IFS calipers. I was wondering if there is any difference in the '86
> calipers and my '92 calipers?
yup - the calipers are different
Also the V6 calipers were "bigger" than the 22REs
I haven an 88 - and its marked S12+2 or something like that
The later calipers have "ribs" in them
Also the "How to keep yer Yota alive" book mentions SEVERAL
caliper types from over the years
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:57:57 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Rancho brake pads and shoes
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
TXPakRat@aol.com wrote:
> I don't know of anyone who has used them, but I would like to konw if
> they are good, too! I would also like to know if anyone knows anything
> about the Rancho vented disk brake rotors. They are 'drilled out' to
> provide better heat disappation. I am thinking about having the Rancho
> rotors, pads, and shoes mounted the next time I have some brake work
> done (I am too chicken to work on the brakes myself, although I do just
> about everything else!).
I haven't used the Rancho stuff, so I can't help you there. But, I
currently have PowerStop rotors with Metal Master pads (they were
recommended in the PowerStop literature). I would recommend PowerStop
rotors. I been using them about 4 months now, and I'm still very
pleased. In fact I had my wheels off two nights ago, and I took a look
at the rotors/pads. They're both wearing great, very little wear, very
smooth flat rotors. These rotor are also Annodised (spelling?) so they
look really impressive too. =20
A big selling point on these rotors is the they are drilled holes do not
have 90=B0 angles that would cut though your pad quicker, they have a
smooth curve from the surface of the rotor into the hole. I'll try and
draw a picture of what I mean below. The advange of this is your pads
will go A LOT further. I bought them through Performance Products, the
pads I bought at the place that installed them. =20
Just a straight hole This one is drilled different
They must use some kinda counter
sink
______ ________ ______ _______
| | | \ / |
| | rotor | | rotor=20
hole surface hole surface
Scott=09
- --=20
*****************************************************
Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
88 4Runner SR5 V6
Santa Clara, CA
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:17:34 -0400
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: brakes: which ones stop better/faster?
To: " - (052)Toy4x4 (a) tlca.org"
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>
> I was wondering of anyone knows (not what the read in ad claims) of
> some good brake shoes/pads. With the 33's, my brakes are not so good.
> Any suggestions?
OK - Brake upgrades
1) Change the fluid - hey ya ought to do it once a year. Some SCCA types
types change it every race. For the $4 bucks for mid line stuff (Castrol
DMA - - I think thats it - its Castrol tho) its probably one of the best
things you can do.
2) new pads - Repco's are good - Ived used 'em and they last pretty good
too.(Thanks to Jim for the part number for the spring kit the other day
- the last dealer tried to sell me parts piece meal. It was *cheaper* to
get a complete kit from Brown's than to buy all the springs)
(btw - that means if anyone wants a set of metallic OEM pads for the
S12+8 series front brakes - I'll send 'em for cheap - uh... is $10 ok?)
3) Steel brake lines. There are now DOT approved ones. The EARLS non-DOT
ones work fine on the street from my experience. I think the reason the
older EARLS ones failed DOT was a "flex" test near the fitting. The newer
DOT legal stainless steel flex lines have a plastic sleeve near the fitting.
I got my set from Downey - but they are EARLS lines. The Downey set was a
bigger pain to install than some other kits (no swivel fittings), but since
there are less parts - there are less things to leak. Besides you are only
doing it once.
4) New Rotors - I have the NWOR ones. I personally am looking into the Power
Stop ones for my next set - OR a Brembo conversion. The NWOR ones have
an "improper" hole pattern. In theory, the NWOR patten is more prone to
cracking, but mine have'nt done so.
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:45:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #130
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> I am compltly new to this list but I have a very frustrating problem with
> my 90 4runner v6. I can not get the brakes to work very good I have 31's
Assuming the master cylinder is good if the brake is going to the floor
than one of two things is hapining. 1) there is air in the line that is
compressing. 2) there is too much travel in one or more of the break pads.
This is most likely in the rear if the auto adjusters are not working.
You can also test the master cylinder by putting a bolt into it where the
brake lines come out and see if it still goes to the floor.
Are you loosing any fluid on the ground ?
Did you blead the rear valve?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:48:21 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #130
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
spadams@FORTLEWIS.EDU wrote:
>
> I am compltly new to this list but I have a very frustrating problem with
> my 90 4runner v6. I can not get the brakes to work very good I have 31's
> on it I am on my third master I have had all the corners redone with
> toyota pads all new fluid and power bled 3 times, it is still not very
> strong, I have done all the tests for the booster and it is fine. when I
> press the brake pedal it feels normal but it gets to a point and there is
> no more pressure the pedal just goes tothe floor, it does not feel like
> leakage in the master but it could be, has this happened to anybody and
> any ideas, also what is the general consensus on poly bushing, do they
> hold up as the ads say they do?
1) Make sure the rear brakes are assembled (leading/trailing shoe not
switched, if applicable) and adjusted properly. Make sure the auto.
adjusters are working. Are the shoes rubbing/hanging-up on the backing
plates? Are the drums within specification or at their discard limit?
2) Where are you buying the master cyl(s). from? Are they new or
rebuilt?
This almost sounds like a case of the M/C bypassing internally. Maybe
try a new O.E.M. unit?
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:25:22 -0500
From: john skaggs
Subject: Front end shake under braking
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I have a problem with the front end shaking when I apply the brakes. I have
already put on new rotots, new calipers, new pads.(Jacks vented rotor swap)
I had the problem before the swap. I am thinking that it is the bushings in
the springs or the track bar. Has anyone had any experience with this? What
did you do to fix it? If it is the spring bushings which do you suggest
urethane or original rubber? I don't want to spend to much $$$ on it do to
the fact that I am going to sell it. I am going to replace it with the
same thing but I want to get an Arizona 85 SR5 4Runner (no rust)
John Skaggs
TLCA# 5560
85 4Runner
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:46:46 -0500
From: Todd Hornsby
Subject: brakes: which ones stop better/faster?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>OK - Brake upgrades
>1) Change the fluid - hey ya ought to do it once a year. Some SCCA types
>types change it every race. For the $4 bucks for mid line stuff (Castrol DMA
>- - I think thats it - its Castrol tho) its probably one of the best
>things you can do.
I second changing fluid once a year! As to fluids many amateur racers,
autoXers use fancy, (read expen$ive) brands with very high boiling points.
If you want a fluid with high boiling point 550F (?) you can't beat Ford
DOT3 for the money. It is as good as any expensive high performance brand
that is marketed with a high boiling point feature. This is nifty little
money saver tip. I also like Napa DOT4 fluid along with Castrol. But really
any brand should work fine for you, just bleed out old stuff every year or
so. The DOT has pretty stringent brake fluid reqs and there really isn't
any 'bad' brands out there. Also don't use old stuff that has been sitting
around a long time and has been prone to absorbing water.
>2) new pads - Repco's are good - Ived used 'em and they last pretty good
too.
I too am very impressed with Repcos (AutoX car). They are also very good at
dealing with heat. For my Toy I've been happy with plain ol' OEM type
organic pads FWIW. I suggest avoiding 'racing' pads for a normal street
(&offroad) driven vehicle. Racing pads mean race (as in high speed road
race) and not a marketing attempt to sell 'go-fast' toys.
>3) Steel brake lines. There are now DOT approved ones. The EARLS non-DOT
>ones work fine on the street from my experience. I think the reason the
>older EARLS ones failed DOT was a "flex" test near the fitting. The newer
>DOT legal
I've got Russell DOT "street legal" hoses. I think most stainless steel
(SS) hoses always could pass the current SS hose test (Which I believe is a
"whip" test for SS lines - modified from the "flex" test for rubber lines)
but manufacturers were loathe to attempt the expensive bureaucratic process
of first developing a test for SS hoses then seeking DOT approval for the
test. Now that one manufacturer (Russell?) developed this test everyone
jumped in with DOT SS hoses. The SS hoses are pretty much the same as they
always have been except for the addition of DOT label. I've seen the
plastic and rubber sleaves on various brands in pre-DOT days. It's nice
when the consumer comes out the winner!
Oh and I've also seen dramatic brake improvement in any older vehicle by
simply replacing older cracking hoses with fresh new rubber brake hoses as
needed.
Saludos,
Todd
________________________________________________________________________
- -Todd Hornsby (San Antonio, TX) http://www.texas.net/~toddh
- -toddh@texas.net alt: thornsby@alumni.cs.colorado.edu
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:20:50 -0700
From: "Gridley Fire Dept."
Subject: Haven't seen this problem yet?
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I have a '91 Toyota extra-cab 4x4. I've been hearing alot of
"metal-to-metal" squeal out of the front brakes. Sounds like the little
piece of metal that warns of reduced brake pad surface; but, it's been
inspected at least twice and we can't find the culprit. It doesn't
sound off all the time--started with left turns, then any direction it
would sound off--usually 25 mph or over. This morning coming to work it
seemed to sound off with the bumps in the road. Most of the time I can
touch the brake and the squeal will stop until I let off on the brake
then it resumes. Sometimes it squeals when I hit the brake!
Soooo--maybe a combination of problems? Anyone share this problem?
110,000 miles on her--and the noise can drive you nuts. Thanks, Steve
Fowler cdfbcfgf@manznet.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:27:59 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: Haven't seen this problem yet?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Steve,
The anti-rattle spring(s) may be broken or missing, causing the brake
pads to slightly rub on the rotor while you drive, causing the squeal.
This occurs when the pads do not fully retract from the rotors when the
brakes are released. The anti-rattle springs exert just enough pressure
to push the pads away from the rotors. If these parts are missing, ask
your Toyota dealer for part number: 04947-60060 Fit Kit. This should
solve your problem.
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 22:02:58 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Running 33's on IFS Toys
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
David Booth wrote:
>
> Here's a few questions about running 33" tires on 1st generation IFS
> 4Runners.
>
> 1) Has anyone tried fitting 33x9.50 (Pizza Cutters) on a stock
> (un-lifted) 4Runner/Truck?
>
Tooooo tall. You'll definately have rubbing. You'll probably have a
little rubbing even with the 32's.
> 2) Are the stock V6 axles strong enough for 33x12.50s or the 9.50s?
>
Yes.
> 3) Are the stock torsion bars strong enough to properly handle the
> larger tires?
>
Yes.
> 4) Are brake upgrades neccessary? If so, what's the most economical
> way to upgrade them?
No. The brakes ~can~ handle the 33's, but I have heard guys with the
33's wishing they had more stopping power. I'd recommend upgrading to
cross-drilled rotors if you're looking for better braking. I'm using
the "Power Stop" rotors sold through Performance Products. They only
cost me $40 more than the brake shop wanted for new 'normal' rotors.
$120/each. I also used the 'Metal Master' pads, they were specifically
recommended for use with these rotors. I've been using them (pads and
rotors) since November, and they are wearing fantastic. I would
definately buy them again.
Scott
- --
Scott A. Wilson __o __o __o __o
Santa Clara, CA _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_
swilson@pacbell.net (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_)
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:56:41 -0400
From: Anthony Pereira
Subject: Brakes
To: Toy4x4 list
> > I have an '86 4x4 p/u, (w/255k miles) and my breaks started acting
> > funny. The pedal sometimes, not all the time, goes to the floor before
> > applying stop pressure. The brakes were just adjusted so this shouldn't happen.
I just joined the list and missed the original post on this one, but it sounds
very similar to a problem I had with my truck. The brakes worked, but usually
need to be pumped three times before they grabbed. I initially thought that it
was the Master cylinder and replaced it only to be left with the same problem.
After weeks of trying to figure out the problem by bleeding and bleeding and
taking this and that apart I finally broke down (pardon the pun) and took it to
a mechanic. He found that the hub bearings on one of the front wheels had
loosened up. That was causing the brake rotor to wobble, pushing the calipers
apart and necessitating the pumping in order to get the pads in contact with the
disc.
Moral of the story...check your hub bearings before you buy a new MC.
- -Anthony
- --
********************************
* Clear & Simple, Inc. *
* The OS/2 Performance Experts *
* http://www.clear-simple.com *
* anthony@clear-simple.com *
* voice (860) 658-1204 *
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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:48:42 -0500
From: Jay Kopycinski
Subject: Master cylinder
To: Mathieu.Noualy@shell.ca
Mathieu.Noualy@shell.ca wrote:
>
> To Jay Kopycinski and other rear disc toy owners
>
> The master cylinder on my 1985 4runner is leaking internally. This means
> I need to replace it...or put a kit in it.
> I've also just finished putting rear disc brakes (a la Jay Kopycinski)
> Therefore, I'm trying to decide which master cylinder bore to go to.
> My current bore size is 13/16". As far as I see it, I have three other
> choices. A 7/8" bore, a 1" bore and a 1 1/16" bore (1994 with anti-lock
> brakes) .
> Jay, how is the 1" bore working for you?
It works great nw with the 1" bore...no double pumping ever.
> What is the pedal effort like?
A bit firmer than before but not too bad.
> What bore size would you recommend?
I'd go 1" again.
> How well does your truck stop?
It pulls down really well now...I like it.
> I am also installing at the same time a Land Cruiser power booster which
> I believe is a two stage design and hopefully will reduce pedal effort.
I'd be interested to hear how that goes. Sounds like a good idea.
Jay Kopycinski
'85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
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Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:05:58 -0700
From: Scott Muir
Subject: Whoa woes (brakes)
To: "'Toy List'"
Any brake experts out there??? This is about an 85 extracab (solid axle)
I seem to have a front/rear proportioning problem. My rear brakes lock =
up long before the fronts think they want to. Originally this started =
out as a bleeding problem. With the brake system stock and the bypass =
spring hanging free, I could not get a strong feedback on the peddle. I =
eventually replaced the LSBP valve with a new one, and the system bled =
properly after that. The rear brakes were good and strong after that, =
and I assumed then the valve needed fine tuning (spring was reading too =
high) and that I would wait until I got my front brake lines lengthened =
before I put things right. Well, after adding 8" to both hoses, I can't =
seem to get much braking power to the front. I have the LSBP set so it =
does not contact the spring (feeler, whatever) at all, and I still get =
early rear lockup.
My theory is that somehow the new hoses expand and take up some of the =
displaced fluid and screws up the front/back mechanism built into the =
master cyl.=20
Has anyone else who have lengthened their front hoses for lift kits had =
problems like this??
Can anyone at least suggest how to get a big bias to the front and work =
it back from there given what I've described???
Thanks, Scott.
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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 01:55:41 -0700
From: Wiley Davis
Subject: Whoa woes (brakes)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
The rear is supposed to lock up first. I can't imagine why you would
want it the other way around.
- --
- -Wiley Davis-
mailto:cdrom@off-road.com
http://www.off-road.com/~cdrom
It's sad to see a family torn apart...by something
as simple as a pack of wolves.
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Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:44:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: Whoa woes (brakes)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Last year I was playing around and thought the same thing. It would be
better to have the front still sterring if the back locked up but...
I did some break testing at speeds of 40 MPH and hit the breaks (on wet
pavement) and found that if the rears lock up first the truck would spin
around uncontrolled. I did this over and over again with different rear
break setting until I found that just removing the rear valve lever and
tie the valve in the up position works best. Now my front breaks lock up
just before the rear without the spinning around that make for so much fun
in traffic and when I feel it in the wheel I can back off the breaks
alittle BTW I have also removed the anti-lock break system from my truck.
Chris Geiger 93 4Runner http://geiger.mcl.ucsb.edu/offroad.html
On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Wiley Davis wrote:
> The rear is supposed to lock up first. I can't imagine why you would
> want it the other way around.
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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:05:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: Tie it up? Just say no...
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I first noticed the problem with my 93 Pickup but I sold it before I ever
looked into the problem. This was a new truck from the dealer.
I noticed the the system on my 4Runner when I drove on ICE, front wheels
would lock up and the rear never did (in snow and ice). The was a problem
when I purchased the truck and had not modified it yet. This was one of my
first problems, I thought I was the only one with this problem until I
talked to others that did a better job than me of fixing it.
What I did to solve the problem, First I tryed adjusting the hight of the
arm carefully marking it so I could return it to stock, I could not feel
any difference, so I adjusted it more. As I raised the adjuster I found
that it took less effort (on the peddle) to stop the truck and when
driving on wet roads I could slow down faster than before. I then had a
brain storm (turned out to be a fart) Why not remove the valve
alltogeather? I did and reroughted the break lines to avoid the valve
completely and went out to test it. Big mistake, I had been using the same
off ramp each time and this time the rear tires locked up before the
front. I lost control at about 20MPH and did a 180, glad no one else saw
it! I put the valve back in and repeated the tests to see what adjustment
would be best. I found that all the way up was best, so I cut off the bar
and tied it up. There is very little change from the bar all the way down
to all the way up, and I think that if I had just a little more power to
the rear than I have now it would be even better. That why I think that an
aftermarket valve that has a larger range of adjustment is the way to go.
I would like to make one warning: do not ever have you breaks set up in
such a way that the rear lockup before the front. At high speed there is
no way to control the truck when the back starts coming around!
This was never a problem on dry pavement only when driving on wet pave
ment or ice, it also helps going down sand dunes.
Chris Geiger 93 4Runner http://geiger.mcl.ucsb.edu/offroad.html
> So what happened to your truck? Has it been like this since day 1?
> Was there something broken, and this was the easy way to compensate
> for it?
>
> You have cured the symptom of your problem,
> but what was the real problem?
>
>
>
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:04:08 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: vented disk swap: better stops?
To: Toyota 4x4 List
DRM033 wrote:
>I was looking at the info on the vented disc swap for solid axle trucks. Does
>this offer a noticable increase in breaking? We have already put an IFS rear
>axle in an 84 truck, mainly for the larger brakes. With 35's, this truck just
>plain needs more help in the braking dept.
>thanks!
It is not a quantum leap in braking power, but is noticeable. Your cheapest
solution on the front is installing good quality pads. Past that the vented
rotor stop will help as well. It costs a few bucks, but if it's time to
change either calipers or rotors, it's definitely worth swapping out both.
The single plate rotors tend to warp easier as they heat up. Your greatest
gain in braking will come during long braking intervals or repeated use
that tends to heat up the single plate rotors.....and big tires get 'em hot
quicker.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:02:27 -0800
From: Barney McNamara
Subject: vented disk swap: better stops?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org,
I did the vented rotor swap when my rotors were too thin to machine flat
anymore. I also had diff oil leaking onto my brake pads, so they needed
replacing. I saw an improvement in stopping power, but don't think it
had much to do with the thicker disks. I did the swap because I needed
new rotors, and wanted more reliable brakes with less fading due to
overheating. Also, I figured the vented rotors would be less likely to
warp while I ride them down the hill to work everyday.
______________________________________________________________
Barney McNamara JENNY - 83 Toyota Short Bed
( barney@flowpoint.com ) stock 22R motor ; 3" body lift
Santa Cruz, Ca. 8" alloy rims; 31" BFG A/Ts
homepage: http://www.scruz.net/~barneym/barnhome.htm
______________________________________________________________
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Date: 21 Jan 98 13:25:09 -0500
From: "Karl Bellve"
Subject: vented disk swap: better stops?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I also did the swap. Hard to tell if the results are from new
components versus old or vented versus solid. End result is that you
do get better braking.
Dr. Karl Bellve
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Date: 19 Nov 1998 11:20:16 -0800
From: Robert Elsemore
Subject: Re: Spongy Brakes
Nanci & Charlie wrote:
>
> When I step on the brakes, at first it feels soft
>(goes lil close to the floor)
> Then I step on it again and it seems to be fine (solid feeling).
> Don't see any fluid leaks Vacuum? Kind of worries me. Any ideas?
Jim Brink replied:
>
>1) Brake master cylinder internal leakage.
>2) External system leakage.
*Rob Elsemore adds:*
Slightly warped brake rotors can cause those
symptoms as well as loose front wheel bearings.
The warped rotors will push the brake pads back away from
the rotor when driving. The first time you hit the brakes
the piston/brake pad must travel a longer distance to reach
the rotor, then the second time you pump the brakes the
brake pad had already moved in and you have a lot more pedal.
Loose front wheel bearings will cause the brakes to behave
the same way but you will not feel any pulsations from the
warped rotor.
- -Rob Elsemore, 85 4Runner
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