Clutch
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 01:09:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: hard shifting in FJ60
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Greg Pearson wrote:
> There is a rubbing noise that disappears when I push in the clutch.
Don't know...I'd guess the clutch pedal is adjusted too tight
>
> Well, tonight I was leaving the in-laws, and the shifting was next to
> impossible. the only way I could get it in gear was to stop the engine at
> every light. I noticed that with the clutch pedal depressed all of the
> way, the 60 was trying to crawl.
Well, heck, sounds like it needs to be adjusted tigher..
>
> After about 5 minutes of driving/jacking the clutch/cussing the shifting
> got noticeably better. It was the only time in my life I've been able to
> cuss a mechanical function into working. Feel free to try this yourselves,
> but make sure your wife isn't around.
>
> Question:WHAT THE HECK IS MY PROBLEM?
>
> I have very little exp. in repairing manual transmissions.
> Is there any way that the slave or clutch master could be going out? I can
> see no fluid leakage at all. Could a piston be shot without leaking?
> Somebody suggested my pilot bearing.....
to help with the visualization:
|| | |\ _
|| | | | | | []
|| [] ||| | | | | | ========
|| | | | |_| []
|| | |/
Okay, we've got the flywheel, the pilot bearing, the clutch disk, the
pressure plate, the throwout bearing, the clutch fork, and the tranny
input shaft. The pilot rests inside the flywheel, the pressure plate is
bolted to the flywheel. The clutch disk is connected to the input shaft.
When the clutch is fully engaged (not pushing in the pedal):
The flywheel, the pilot, the clutch disk and PP, throwout bearing and
input shaft are *all* turning. If adjusted correctly, the fork is making
minimal, if any contact with the throwhout bearing.
If the fork is pushing on the throwout enough to make the bearing actually
function, then the pedal is adjusted too tight. This will cause the
throwout to wear out. If it's it's even tighter, then the clutch will
slip.
When the clutch if fully dis-engaged (pushing the pedal to the floor):
The flywheel, and pressure plate spin. both the pilot and the throwout
bearing are functioning (as bearings). This allows the input shaft to
spin at a different rate than the flywheel, and allows the fork to apply
pressure to the pressure plate by means of the throwout bearing. If the
clutch is not fully disengaged, then the clutch plate will be rubbing
against the pressure plate.
If the pilot bearing is worn, it is difficult for the input shaft to
rotate at a different speed than the flywheel, *regardless* of clutch
position.
If the throughout bearing is worn, then it will make a lot of noise, when
functioning, and could (theoretically) slow down the pressure
plate/flywheel/engine, when functioning.
Okay, so here's the problems:
1. There is a rubbing noise when the clutch is engaged.
2. It is hard to shift.
Here's (what I think) may be wrong:
1. It is making a rubbing noise probably because the fork is pushing too
hard against the throwout bearing. (pedal is too tight). Or, it could be
something in the tranny (can't help you there).
2. It is hard to shift because either, a) the clutch is not fully
disengaging or b) the pilot bearing is not functioning properly.
To check it, this is what I would do: Check the master and slave
cylinder. Look for any signs if leaks. Have someone pump the clutch
pedal, and check to make sure that everything looks and sounds right. Do
this with the engine off. If there is any doubt in the components, bleed
the system. (this is hydraulic, right?)
With this done, get a stethoscope or something that will function
similarily. Start the engine, and with the clutch engaged (no one
touching the pedal), try to locate the 'rubbing' noise. Try adjusting the
clutch so that the there is less pressure on the throwout bearing. With
any luck, the rubbing noise will go away. Next, have someone push in the
clutch. Listen again, for noise. If the pilot bearing is bad, you may be
able to hear it. I suppose one way to check, is to try tightening the
clutch so there is more pressure on the throwout bearing. What you want
to do, is *insure* that with the pedal pushed to the floor, that the
clutch is fully disengaged. If you can hear the pilot bearing now, or if
it is still difficult to shift, than I believe that the pilot bearing is
the problem.
If you are really on a budget, then just replace the pilot and throwout
bearing, and pull the tranny yourself. If you have a shop do this, then
get the clutch plate and pressure plate replaced while they are at it.
Anyway, I hope this helps,
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:12:31 -0500
From: "R. W. 'Butch' Stiles"
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #77
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:17:39 +0000
> From: "Mike Williams"
> Subject: Suggestions for Clutch
> To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>
> I am currently having my truck's transmission rebuilt. The truck is
> an '81 SR5 with a mildly modified engine, 5.29 gears, and 35" BFGs.
> I am looking suggestions and recommendations for a new clutch. What
> should I upgrade to? A Centerforce I, Centerforce II, Downey Super
> Clutch??? Anyone that is running this combination of tires and
> gears -- let me know your experiences.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mike Williams
> ======+++++++++++++======
> mwill@ctos.com
> ===++++++++++++++===
>
> ------------------------------
>
>I don't think you can go wrong with a centerforce. I've had 2 so far, and they were
both first class. Regarding other hi-po clutches, I remember my brother going thru
clutch cylinders like they were going out of style until he heeded my advice and
bought a centerforce. Toyota's hydraulic clutch system does NOT like too much
additional load on it. That's the beauty of these clutches, more plate pressure
without a lot more pedal pressure. As to which centerforce, that would depend on
your driving habits, if you off-road a lot you might want the II. It will take
more abuse.
Butch
rokitman@erols.com
Just as it says, 'Rocket Man'
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:56:09 -0000
From: "Todd and Terry"
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #77
To:
Mike Williams
You wrote
>
> I am currently having my truck's transmission rebuilt. The truck is
> an '81 SR5 with a mildly modified engine, 5.29 gears, and 35" BFGs.
> I am looking suggestions and recommendations for a new clutch. What
> should I upgrade to? A Centerforce I, Centerforce II, Downey Super
> Clutch??? Anyone that is running this combination of tires and
> gears -- let me know your experiences.
>
> Thanks
>
> I used a Centerforce I in an 85 Bronco II for over 75,000 miles with no
problems (stock lasted 35k, pushed 31's with 3.43 gears). Sold the truck so
I don't know how much longer it lasted. The new owner did drop the
driveshaft a week later trying to do a burnout (STUPID, STUPID, STUPID). I
replaced my stock toyota clutch (129,000 miles with 30" bfg muds and TSL
SX's) last month with a CenterForce Dual Friction. I would go with the
Dual Friction. Got mine mail order from Off Road Unlimited out of Mesa AZ
for $206.
Hope this helps
Todd
tntsteel@kingsnet.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 15:30:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Clutch Mod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On Fri, 21 Feb 1997, Greg S. Francis wrote:
> Someone mentioned a clutch bump-stop modification to allow more travel. Is
> this only for the Downey Super Clutch, or is it applicable for stock or
> other aftermarcket clutches? If so, what is the procedure and what are the
> gains?
I mentioned that.
Well, here's the problem (I had) when I installed the Downey Super Clutch,
and didn't do anything other than adjusting the pedal (so that it would
fully realease the clutch when the pedal was pushed down all the way, and
not ride the throwout bearing when the pedal was realeased). With it
fully adjusted, (but unmodified) it fealt as though I had to push the
pedal almost through the floor to get the clutch to fully release. If I
adjusted the pedal any higher, though, then the fork would push too hard
against the T.O. bearing, which can (and does) lead to quick failure of
both the T.O. bearing and the clutch itself (Because it's more likely to
slip). I learned this the hard way, as I adjusted my friends S-10 clutch
wrong and a month later that darn T.O. bearing went out (and it only had
like 1 or 2 years on it anyway)
So, what I needed was more room for the pedal to travel up higher. I
pulled the dash all apart, and did all kinds of contorsionist moves under
there (and I'm only 5'8"!) but somehow managed to spot this little bump
stop that keeps the pedal from moving up any farther. I forget if I
adjusted it, or just ripped it off (I'm thinking I ripped it off), but
anyhow, this allowed the pedal to go up another inch or so, which allowed
me to readjust the clutch pedal height (in a sense, tightening it), which
allowed for full clutch release with the pedal about 1/2"-1" above the
floor. This made it *much* easier to drive and modulate. It also made
the clutch at least *feel* a lot lighter.
Also, on another note, while your under their (if you have a '88 and
earlier truck) you might want to keep your eye out for that dumb 'toyota
buzzer' or whatever it's called. It's a little black box thing (about
1-2" x1-2"x1"), and you can just unplug it. IMHO this anoying little
buzzer box modification should be the first thing you do to your toy,
ahead of tires, lockers, gears, ect.
hope this helps,
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:06:24 -0700
> From: Frank Di Giovanni
> Subject: Creaking pedal
> To: Toyota 4X4 Mailing List
>
> Lately when I push the clutch pedal in to shift gears and then let out the
> clutch, it seems to make a creaking noise, like the spring under the dash
> is dry or something. I put more lube on it but it did not do anything.
> Anybody know what is going on? Thanks in advance, Frank
This could be metal fatigue in the clutch pedal mounting bracket which has
lead to a hairline crack in the mounting bracket. The result of this is
that when you depress the clutch pedal, the outward (towards you) force
on the bracket pulls the metal apart.. when you release the clutch,
it slowly comes back together. The problem is exacerbated by the fact
that there is _considerable_ firewall flex in the area of the clutch
pedal when the clutch is depressed.
Because the mounting bracket is a pain to replace, I 'fixed' mine by
reducing the firewall flex.. had a angled brace welded up which
bolts between the wheel well wall and the clutch master cylinder.
I really should go in there and fix it properly, but what a mess..
have to pull out all the pedals. Basically, this is a fundamental
design flaw with the vehicle... I'm surprised everyone isn't
getting bit by this one.
- --
Eric Johnson (eric@qnx.com, eajohnson@acm.org)
Technical Development; QNX Software Systems Ltd.
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:20:15 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: Creaking pedal
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Earle Rother wrote:
>
> >Lately when I push the clutch pedal in to shift gears and then let out the
> >clutch, it seems to make a creaking noise, like the spring under the dash
> >is dry or something. I put more lube on it but it did not do anything.
> >Anybody know what is going on? Thanks in advance, Frank
> Frank,
> I think I have the same problem - It is almost like a poping sound on mine.
> I know it is near the clutch master cylinder. I have rotated the push rod
> from the clutch to the cylinder - this solved the problem for about 2 weeks
> now it's back. I also have tried the lube method to no avail.
>
> Earle Rother
> ewr@appsig.com
See if the bushings for the clutch pedal pivot bar (up under the dash)
are broken or missing. If intact, lube them with white grease.
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 01:04:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: BCSTOY@aol.com
Subject: Clutch Adjustment (Trowout Bearing)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-04-29 01:18:34 EDT, you write:
<< How do you adjust the clutch throwout bearing off of the pressure plate on
an 88 4Run >>
There is no adjustment to be made just make sure the 2 clips hold the bearing
release from its "ears". I usually tight the arm fork from the holes (12mm
bolt) for the slave
cylinder in the tranny this is to prevent it from disengaging from its pinion
or from accidentally dropping the bearing off while lifting the tranny
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:26:13 +0000
From: sbever@jeffnet.org
Subject: Clutch adjustment/ Throwout bearing
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org, Michael L Martin
Michael wrote:
> The only adjustment I know of is the pedal adjustment. I just
> adjusted mine this weekend (and replaced the T-out bearing).
Just the bearing? Why not the whole clutch?
> The reason the pedal adjustment DOES make a difference is that
> it determines how much pressure the hydraulic system is pushing through
> the slave cylinder/pushrod into the throwout {fork}.
Well that is where I'm a little confused. Just because the fork doesn't have
pressure from the slave doesn't mean that the fork isn't sitting with the
bearing right against the pressure plate. Perhaps the laws of physics
make it just float back if no pressure is pushing it against the pp as it
would rather do that then spin on the pp?
Toyota Land Cruisers and Chevy's have a return spring which pulls the
fork back off the pp and also keeps the slave cylinder pushrod tight against
the fork when the pedal is not being pushed....
> Hope this helps..... also, if you adjust the pedal, make sure
> the little nut is tight when you're finished adjusting (it's a 12mm).
Thanks for the advise.
Scott
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 11:08:14 +0000
From: sbever@jeffnet.org
Subject: Zoom clutch (was 22R Engine Building)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Todd Hornsby Wrote:
>Clutch:
> OEM or Zoom maybe - don't know any other good HD type aftermarket brands
> for toy. Wasn't this thread discussed last month? Zoom is respected in the
> hotroder community. I too would like to hear about other clutch options
> especially with respect to long life.
Zoom is available for Schuck's/Checker with a lifetime warranty for about
$125.00 new. I didn't opt for it since I couldn't find anyone with
experience with ZOOM and have had some bad experiences with Schuck's
products in general. Wish I'd know it was a good clutch...
Instead, I purchased Daikon with a 1 year warranty. Disc was plenty
thick, and the springs were thicker than the AISIN disc I pulled; bearings
were actually the NACHI bearings I pulled from the rig. Pressure plate
fingers were perhaps a 1/64 less thick as the AISIN.
FWIW,
Scott
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 11:30:57 -0400
From: "Bart Huffman"
Subject: Zoom Clutch
To:
I thought you should know,
I have a ZOOM II Clutch installed in my '89 4RUNNER. I also got the
lifetime warranty when I purchaced it from my local parts store. The kit
comes with a new disk, pressure plate, throw out , and alignment tool.
It's supposed to be 20% over stock clamping, just like the Centerforce. My
only regret is that the pedal pressure is VERY LIGHT. You almost can't feel
the pedal moving at all.
FWIW,
Bartman
'89 Runner Modded.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 22:25:49 -0500
From: Todd Hornsby
Subject: Zoom Clutch
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
FYI: My catalog shows zoom making 2 clutches, a HiPo unit ($200+) and an
OEM unit ($100+).
At 05:57 PM 5/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>I'll second that! Mine blew out the master cylinder within the first
>weak! I like whatever my friend's truck came with--extremely light
I'm confused, your clutch blew out the master cylinder [seals][piston]!?
Wow. Is it possible the MC was already on borrowed time or that this was
coincidental? Most curious. I've played with some awfully potent clutches
with nasty clamping pressure beyond what is commonly available for
non-competition Toy 4cyl that were hydraulically activated with no problems
(hydralically speaking anyway ;). When I rebuilt my slave cylinder the
seals were just worn down plain and simple. And yes I prefer your friends
clutch too! I was masochistic once and that's enough!
What you're saying points to what often occurs in motors when modifying
them for HiPo or HD usage. The chain is only as strong as the weakest link
and modifications often magnify weakness elsewhere in the system.
If pedal pressure is a concern this is one area the Centerforce shines in.
At the other extreme, my Chevy SB has a McCleod HD Racing clutch, last time
I took it the car in for smog test they tried once and then had me move the
car up to the dyno - it's like a one legged squat rack! It's was my
impression the Zoom was not too bad pressure wise - maybe I was wrong.
While on the subject of hydraulics I'm a real believer in regular
replacement of hydraulic fluid (1-2 years) to extend the life.
>(my gas pedal has about the same pressure, really), and no problems at
>all running 36" swampers w/ stock gearing.
If you think a clutch can affect the engagability or your wheels wait until
you start swapping in different weight flywheels!
Saludos,
Todd
________________________________________________________________________
- -Todd Hornsby (San Antonio, TX) http://www.texas.net/~toddh
- -toddh@texas.net alt: thornsby@alumni.cs.colorado.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Zoom Clutch
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> >I'll second that! Mine blew out the master cylinder within the first
> >weak! I like whatever my friend's truck came with--extremely light
>
> I'm confused, your clutch blew out the master cylinder
> [seals][piston]!? Wow. Is it possible the MC was already on borrowed
> time or that this was coincidental? Most curious. I've played with
> some awfully potent clutches with nasty clamping pressure beyond what
> is commonly available for
Well, it wasn't like one time I pushed it and all these seals and crap
blew out the end or anything! Here's the story: 1987 truck, 130,000
miles, basically in good shape. One day the old clutch starts slipping
in fifth..and by a month later, it's slipping in both 4th and 5th.
Also, within that last month, it had started to use a bit of clutch
fluid. I had to top it off every week or two.
I replaced it, and within a few days my master cylinder started needed
to be refilled every day or two. By the end of the week, it was
everyday. And the pedal was always wet and slippery.. So I replaced
it, and haven't had any more problems..
And then a month later, I 'borrowed' a friends 33's on nice aluminum
rims. They were cool, but I fealt guilty running them (I didn't exactly
ask ;) ), and as if to pay for that..one day my pedal went 'clunk' and
after that, my clutch travel seemed all messed up. As it turned out, I
broke the ball joint thing in half (yeah, I've told this story before,
if you guys are wondering), and I had to pull the tranny all over again
to replace that little tiny part.
Well, this is what I found out: A clutch is like a 'fuse'. Putting in
a monster 1000amp fuse might fix a problem with blowing fuses, but it's
not the 'right' fix! Granted a clutch is a lot harder to change than a
fuse, but still, it's a lot easier than other components, so I don't
think really HD clutches are really the right ticket.
Downey does advertise that they're Super Clutch is designed within the
capability of the stock hydraulic system, but that's a *new* hydraulic
system. Keep that in mind!
Anyway, it worked fine, and I liked the way it gripped, but honestly, my
friends very light clutch gripped just as hard off the line, and was
*much* easier to modulate. Taking off with 36's on his truck wasn't
much harder than the 32's on my truck.
> What you're saying points to what often occurs in motors when
> modifying them for HiPo or HD usage. The chain is only as strong as
> the weakest link and modifications often magnify weakness elsewhere in
> the system.
Yup, agreed.
> If pedal pressure is a concern this is one area the Centerforce shines
> in. At the other extreme, my Chevy SB has a McCleod HD Racing clutch,
> last time I took it the car in for smog test they tried once and then
> had me move the car up to the dyno - it's like a one legged squat
> rack! It's was my impression the Zoom was not too bad pressure wise -
> maybe I was wrong.
My super clutch wasn't that bad, but after driving it, it's hard to
drive other clutches because you can't feel them! Then once you get
used to that nice soft stock clutch, it's a pain to get back in you own
truck with that 'one legged squat rack' in it!
> >(my gas pedal has about the same pressure, really), and no problems
> >at all running 36" swampers w/ stock gearing.
>
> If you think a clutch can affect the engagability or your wheels wait
> until you start swapping in different weight flywheels!
Hopefully I won't have to try that mod..
__
Jonathan (I love modifying stuff, but I'm too poor to afford to fix
what it broke) Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:51:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: TXPakRat@aol.com
Subject: Tranny Troubles
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Jim, (and others!)
Sorry everyone, I will appologize up front for the long message! Sorry!
:)
I got a note in the mail a week ago from a local Toyota dealership that
was having a free 27 point inspection. So, I set up an appointment for this
morning. Well, they did the inspection and a lot of things that I did not
ask for (oil change, coolant flush, rotated my tires, etc. . . . long story
- - man, I was pissed, but I didn't have to pay). Well, without really test
driving my truck, or pulling the tranny apart, they proclaimed that I would
need a new clutch "very soon!" I have noticed that the clutch has gotten
kind of notchy the last few months (I posted this to the digest a while back
to get suggestions). I don't think that it has been that bad. I run Mobile
1 in my tranny, xfer, and diffs. It was suggested to me to try using a quart
of GM SynchroMesh. My truck seems to be shifting better. By the way, I have
a '90 4Runner SR5 V6, geared at 4.10, running 32's, with 81,000 miles and I
have not blown the head gasket, yet!
1. Can they diagnose a clutch problem by just pulling my truck from the
parking lot to the service bay? I had 3rd gear and 3rd gear synchro replaced
at 50,000 miles under warranty and they did not indicate any clutch problems
(this was done in Colorado, I currently live in MD).
2. Here are the list of parts they wrote up and costs. Is this
reasonable (the labor seems awfully high)?
disk $ 77.05
cover $138.05 ***cover?***
R bearing $ 50.86
P bearing $ 11.13
Labor _______
TOTAL $875.00 *** WOW, just to replace the clutch!***
3. If you think that they could be right, would I need to have the
clutch master cylinder or anything else worked on at that time?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:51:04 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: Tranny Troubles
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I guess they would THINK the clutch may be bad if the trans. was
difficult to shift (improper clutch disengagement) but my first check
would be the pedal freeplay and height, clutch master cylinder (fluid
level), and slave cylinder (for leakage). Does the clutch slip? Possibly
the lot porter was playing mechanic that day as he drove your truck from
the lot to the service bay?
The cover you question in the estimate is the pressure plate and yes, it
is very expensive to have a clutch done at the dealer, however, if the
trans. was not properly sealed during repairs, this may be your chance
to pay just a small amount for clutch R&R while the trans. is out (about
1.5 hours labor). Considering you have 81,000 on the truck now, a clutch
job may be considered maintenance--something you would'nt have to worry
about later on...
The OEM Toyota clutches are pretty good for overall use. Ask your dealer
if they would install a Centerforce if you choose to go that route. Some
service departments have strict policies about this while others do not.
Let us know what happens.
Jim
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:45:02 -0400
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Tranny Troubles
To: " - (052)Toy4x4 (a) tlca.org" ,
Bob:
If the clutch has oil on it, or the pedal free play is out - yeah - I
could see someone like Jim (or any of the MANY others on this list)
noting that something is amiss. So - If you did trust the driver's
opinion - yeah they could possibly tell you something about the clutch.
Of course - its such a BEAR to get at the clutch - that you could let
it go for awhile.
Load of friends drive around on "marginal" clutches - just dont pull
hills and tow stuff etc. Of course - 'core 4whellin is OUT too...but
they use theirs as daily drivers around town.
About the cost - its a tad high - but in the ballpark. Last I heard -
it was a 7 hour book job or something like that. (7x60=420 in labor)
A clutch consists of a disk and the pressure plate or the "cover" that
the Yota guys refer too. If yer in there and can afford it - yank the
rear main seal on the engine and the rear main seal on the tranny input.
Take a peak at the fork and the ball pivot too.
The master and slave cyl are "easy" and can be worked on w/o removing the
tranny - if it appears to be ok - then leave em be for now.
If you do the work yerself - get nicer parts with the $$$ you save in
labor. I'd also either get the flywheel turned or get a Centerforce
Heavy flywheel.
As far as yer oil leak - you can tell by the smell if its gear oil or
motor oil. Clean the area off with brake cleaner, and check it the next
day - sniff (dont taste!) and that should help detrmine where the leak
might be from.
My guess - the tranny is leaking a tad and getting on the disk. The disk
"chatters a tad". You ignore it and are wearing the disk a bit more than
usual. (You'll stillget 100K on the clutch tho - far better than the 40K
I used to get on my Ni#$an Stanza)
( I drove like that for 50K and now 38K on a new clutch and still leaking
rear main seal I'll do a ready sleeve this summer...)
Now you know why many of us do our own work - it WILL take (most of us)
longer. It probably wont be any cheaper (More if you factor in the cost
of tools) but you KNOW that it was done right (or where the corners were
cut).
BTW - Jim can confirm this, but I had heard that when doing a clutch in
a bay with a lift and the proper screw jack stands, that one can pull
the clutch in 2 hours by:
discon the front shaft only at the front diff.
leaving the cross member on the trannny
pull the tranny "back" and down and take out the clutch
Of course the $1400 Lincoln 1/4 ton high lift tranny jack is real helpful
- as is the lift!
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 20:58:24 +0000
From: sbever@jeffnet.org
Subject: Clutch Help
To: Jason King , Toyota 4x4 List
Jason asked:
>
> I have a problem with my clutch...If I take of from a stop light in
> first gear, when I let the clutch out it makes a screaching noise.
> It has 45000 miles on it. Does it need replacing, adjusting or what?
> It is a 95 Toy 4x4 extended cab with 32x1150s, stock gears, and 3vr-e
> engine (the v6)...any help would be appreciated.
Does the clutch slip, like going up a steep hill in 4th gear? If so,
your disc is probably worn and might be down to metal and destroying
your flywheel. If not, I'd guess that you have a bad throw out bearing
or a defective finger on your pressure plate which squeels against the
bearing face. Bad bearing is just noisy unless it freezes, then your
clutch will basically stop working and the squell will sound minor in
comparison. If the finger is raised or otherwise defective, it will
just be annoying unless it goes really bad, then your probably looking
at failure as well.
I'd sit in my driveway with motor on and try to figure out which of the
three it is most likely. A bad fingre will tend to make sound when you
barely touch the pedal (that is when the bearing will be just contacting
the fingers). A bad bearing will tend to make sound anywhere from the
moment you step on the pedal to when you let go, but it can also be at
certain spots or even different spots at different times. A bad disc
will tend to make sound when it is contacting the flywheel and spinning
against it, like almost full pedal down, but not as bad with pedal
almost all the way up (as the disc is not spinning as fast against the
flywheel then).
Fingers tired,
Scott
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:28:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Clutch: Master / Slave worn?
To: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
> Its got 263K on the odo right now. The clutch master was replaced
> with a new OEM unit at around 150K due to the seals leaking brake
> fluid onto my left foot :(
I think that's pretty darn common! My last truck did this at 130k, and
my new one's doing it at 107k
> Its got a 30lb Centerforce flywheel and a Centerforce Dual friction
> clutch.
>
> In order to be able to shift the trans, the free play has to be
> adjusted to almost nil. Otherwise I dont get enough travel to engage
> the gears w/o fancy double clutching and luck. Also the pedal squeaks
> like mad (but I beleive that Jim mentioned that there is a bushing in
> the pedal assembly).
Okay, you've probably already tried this, but when I did my Downey SC
clutch, I had to remove the upper bump stop for the clutch pedal (allows
it to travel up higher) then you can just tighten up the clutch pedal
adjustment (in other words, raise the pedal height) and everything
worked great for me. For the squeaks.. I just greased every pivot point
I could find. Put some grease on the return spring (under the dash)
too, cause sometimes this will squeak against stuff.
About your MC problems, when I bought my new MC, the parts store said
that sometimes reusing an old slave cylinder can wear out the new master
cylinder very quickly.. even if you flush it out well. The guy seemed
to think it wasn't possible to flush *all* of the old grit out of the
slave cylinder. Since the slave was only 25 bucks... I figured what the
heck, and got that too.
- --
_______
Jonathan Albrecht __. /_/__|__\__
albr9619@uidaho.edu __/__|\___ |_.--.__,--;
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619 :--.__|.--.|,---- ~'(__)'`(__)
`'`'`''`'`'`''``'`'`'`'`''`'`'``'`
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:15:48 -0800
From: Jim Brink
Subject: Clutch: Master / Slave worn?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Ed.Wong@astramerck.com wrote:
>
> This is probably for Jim Brink, but others may know as well..
>
> 89 Gen1 4Runner, 22RE engine, 5sped
>
> Its got 263K on the odo right now.
> The clutch master was replaced with a new OEM unit at around 150K
> due to the seals leaking brake fluid onto my left foot :(
You get that for free :-)
>
> Its got a 30lb Centerforce flywheel and a Centerforce Dual friction clutch.
>
> In order to be able to shift the trans, the free play has to be adjusted to
> almost nil. Otherwise I dont get enough travel to engage the gears w/o
> fancy double clutching and luck. Also the pedal squeaks like mad (but
> I beleive that Jim mentioned that there is a bushing in the pedal
> assembly).
Yep, two of them.
>
> Im wondering if the slave cycl is "shot". It does not appear to be loosing
> fluid out of the system, but I wonder if the slave cycl cant hold the
> pressure, so it "bleeds off" as the pedal is held down. Thus if you set up
> for "over travel", it gives a bit more time before the clutch bleeds "down".
Both the clutch master and slave can bypass internally. This is caused
by bad piston seals, scored or corroded piston, or both.
>
> The rear main is leaking oil onto the clutch - doesnt make thing easier, but
> its not a seal issue - its the use of synth oil and worn main bearings.
> New thrust bearings helped some, but not much.
>
> Should I just "live with it", or might the slave cycl be worn?
Put in a new slave and readjust the pedal freeplay.
>
> The clutch fluid gets replaced every year, but it still seems to turn "darker"
> (aka absorb water) faster than the brake fluid (which also gets
> changed one a year). The "flex" hose has been repalced with Earls
> stainless steel line, so the hose isnt shot. hmmm..
I was going to suggest hose until I read the last paragraph. Usually
when the rubber hoses fail, the fluid gets very dark and sludgy,
indicating the hose is ruptured in it's I.D.
- --
Jim Brink, Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 1986 Toyota Std. Bed 4WD
Manhattan Beach, CA 32x11.50/15 BFG M/Ts
ToyTech@Off-Road.com
************************************************************************
TLCA - Friends of the Mojave Road (FOMR) - CA4WDC
Visit http://www.off-road.com Putting Off-Road, Online!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:11:07 -0800
From: Jim Brink
Subject: clutch problems
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Ed Ruf wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Care to illuminate us on your opinion of specific aftermarket clutches? I'm
> getting ready to do the clutch in my PU, now at 133k, and would be
> interested in your experiences.
I've seen some pretty weak clutches. Best by far are the Centerforce and
OEM clutches. LUK clutches seem to last quite a long time but this is
all realtive to driving habits and driving conditions.
Most of the trucks I've come across have had the OEM clutch components
and odometer readings on these have been anywhere from 50k miles to 160k
miles.
Many of the lesser-known clutches use reman. pressure plates that are
below spec. and poor quality friction discs. The Toyota OEM clutches
(replacement, remans.) are a little better but for the best OEM style
clutch, look for the ASCO brand. ASCO is the OEM for Toyota and when you
buy direct from them, you get new parts, not reman. as the dealer most
commonly supplies.
Depending on the use of the vehicle, I will install either an ASCO or a
Centerforce I. At work I am pretty much limited to original equipment
unless the owner specifies or supplies different components.
My Centerforce I is coming off of 90k miles of service now. Not bad for
some of the abuse it has been subjected to. Based on a friend's
experience and suggestion, I am switching to the Downey Super Clutch. I
think the added strain of larger tires and lockers will demand a
stronger clutch.
Are you thouroughly confused yet, Ed?
- --
Jim Brink, Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 1986 Toyota Std. Bed 4WD
Manhattan Beach, CA 32x11.50/15 BFG M/Ts
ToyTech@Off-Road.com
************************************************************************
TLCA - Friends of the Mojave Road (FOMR) - CA4WDC
Visit http://www.off-road.com Putting Off-Road, Online!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:34:49 -0700
From: Rob Boyle
Subject: clutch problems
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
My two cents worth on the Downey Super Clutch..
I put one on 90,000 miles ago and have had great performance. most of
this has been on 31" tires with stock gears. It is still very crisp
too, with a very small "sweet spot". Most impressively, It got me
through several tuff trails while I was running the 33's with stock
gears, Blanca peak and Rattler included. Treated that clutch like it was
a torque converter! I'll buy another one when the time comes.
Rob
85 4runner
lifted, locked and geared
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:07:02 +1000
From: "Chris Senungetuk"
Subject: clutch problems
To: "toyota list"
>
> I was told that Toyota has a problem with the master and
slave clutch
> cylinders. is this true?
Here's something to watch out for. On my 92 Extracab I
sprung a leak in the hydraulic line. This was in the rubber
section that is between the body and engine in the engine
compartment. There was enough vibration to cause the rubber
line to rub on a metal part, wearing a hole. I couldn't
locate a replacement so I took the line to a local
hydraulic outfit who took the ends off and brazed 'em onto
some seriously heavy-duty Aeroquip stuff. Cost less than a
factory replacement, too.
Later the master cylinder stopped working 'cause of the
dirt that got in there. Rebuilt the master and slave and
now everything's fine.
It's a good idea to check that rubber line now and then.
Chris Senungetuk
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 09:49:46 -0700
From: "Richard Aguinsky"
Subject: Re: Clutch not releasing ??
Steve:
What you are describing is EXACTLY like what
happened to me, I heard a bang one morning, nothing
else happened and then once in a while I couldn't
shift gears. I too replaced master and slave
cylinders because the clutch was only 8K new from
PepBoys.
Finally, I build up a lot of courage, consulted the
list (which was the BEST thing I did) and began
rebuilding the clutch with a lot of email support.
What happened in my case is that the PepBoys clutch
disk has rubber mounts instead of springs, one of
the mounts broke and the metal washer was stuck
between the flywheel and the disk.
After a lot of emails going back and forth in the
list, I decided to do the clutch myself and bought
the Toyota OEM heavy duty clutch assembly. It was
only $145 for the whole thing.
Mind you, I am a 1/2 banana mechanic, but after
the clutch replacement, I'm up to one full banana
mechanic, it took me 2.5 weeks to get the truck
running again, I did it all by my self, no extra
hands to help but tons of emails with VERY valueable
suggestions.
If you decide to replace the clutch yourself, I'll
forward you the emails, it's not difficult, just a
lot of work and lots of neat tricks from the list.
Good luck
Rich
'87 4runner
Now with a new clutch
and full 1 banana mechanic driving it
Steve wrote:
The symptom:
There was a bang while driving, it became
very hard to shift gears. With the truck
stopped engine running I could not shift
gears at all. I had to start it in first
gear to get it to move. It acts like the
clutch is not releasing completely. The
truck moves even with the clutch pedal on
the floor.
Replaced: Master Cylinder and Slave
Cylinder.
Trans. rebuilt last year. Center force
clutch with about 40k on it. through-out
bearing replaced with clutch. Pilot bearing
is original. (I did have this flywheel
resurfaced with the clutch replacement, so
the pilot may have been replaced, I can't
remember for sure.)
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 19:26:35 -0700
From: Jim Brink
Subject: Re: Clutch not releasing ??
Rosenberger Bud wrote:
>
> Jim Brink wrote:
> >You're no doubt looking at transmission removal but I would guess it is
> a problem with the clutch >fork/clutch fork pivot stud, or the
> transmission input bearing retainer.
>
> I will be doing the clutch in my truck soon and wonder if I should
> replace these as a matter of course??
> TIA'
> Bud
I like to recommend a new fork and pivot stud on higher-mileage
vehicles, along with a rear main seal, trans. seal, etc. I've actually
pulled transmissions out shortly after clutch jobs to replace broken
forks. Call it cheap insurance for your valuable time.
- --
Jim Brink
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:59:14 -0700
From: Steve Keene
Subject: Clutch wont release! "The solution"
I wrote a week ago that my clutch suddenly
would not release completely.
What I found was that the Centrerforce I
clutch disintegrated. The clutch material
on the Pressure plate side broke up and fell
off jamming the pieces between the pressure
plate and the clutch disk. This disk was
about 3 years old. It certainly didn't last
as long as the original toyota clutch. I'm
disappointed.
I replaced it with a Downey super clutch. I
cant say it feels as tight as the
Centerforce did. It feels more like the
original Toyota unit. Lighter pedal feel and
more slippage as it goes in but I've only
driven it 20 miles so far.
Well that's the story, anyone else have an
opinion on the Downey Clutch?
Steve Keene, Anaheim, CA
TLCA # 5414 stkeene@pacbell.net
81 Toyota Long Bed Truck, Front 3" Rancho
Springs, Rear 2 1/2" Shackles+2" Performance
Add-a-Leaf, 32" BFG Mud Terrain , Stainless
Steel Brake line rear, Relocated front brake
Lines, Extended Diff, Breathers, On board
air.(By Colman Ha!), Roll bar Air Tank,
Seats in bed w/4 point belts, Bikini top
over bed. 4:56 diff. gears, Lockright in
Rear.
-----------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:36:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Luke P Miller
Subject: Re: Clutch wont release! "The solution"
I'm happy with my super clutch, it's given me 25,000 miles without
complaint so far, and hasn't needed an adjustment yet. Unless it somehow
destroys itself in spectacular fashion, I'll probably get the same thing
when it comes time for the next clutch.
Luke Miller
_____________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:44:15 -0700
From: Jim Brink
Subject: Re: Clutch wont release! "The solution"
Steve Keene wrote:
> Well that's the story, anyone else have an
> opinion on the Downey Clutch?
I like mine. It stands up to the abuse better than the Centerforce I
did. Don't get me wrong, the CF was a great (90k miles worth) clutch. I
just think the Super Clutch is specifically designed for Toyota
applications and the CF uses general technology for all vehicles.
The SC engages closer to the floor than the CF did. Takes some getting
used to. Just my opinion, but what do I know? ;-)
- --
Jim Brink
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:13:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: pelland@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Downey Clutch
Steve Keene wrote:
> Well that's the story, anyone else have an
> opinion on the Downey Clutch?
I am just about to pull out my second Downey clutch and put in a centerforce
Dual friction and centerforce 30lb flywheel. I have been through two Downey
Super Clutchs they burn up too quick for me.
But then I tend to push the limits Big Rocks, Water, etc.
Mike Pelland
94 Extra cab
22RE,Dual Lockrites, etc
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:12:35 -0600
From: Rob Boyle
Subject: Re: Downey Clutch
I was wondering what kind of mileage you got out of your super clutch. I
have 100,000 mi on mine and need to know what to expect. Does it began to
slip like a normal clutch? I am starting to smell it a little more when
wheeling and get some st st st stuttering when starting of in first. I
hope i'm not allready down to the rivets. Other then that I've been quite
happy with it.
Rob Boyle
85 4Runner
http://www.off-road.com/~cbloki/rob.html
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:43:09 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: OEM heavy duty clutch
Good choice Rich, I had my first heavy duty OEM clutch last 120,000
miles and changed it only because I removed my trans to install a dual
marlin case. That was running 33" tires with stock gears for most of
the miles.
I know I even smoked the clutch a few times with the wheeling I do.
Toyota Tony
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:55:16 EDT
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Re: Clutch Replacement Prices / How many bananna Job?
I would suggest that you don't need a jack at all. It is all about numbers.
Call over friends & family - bribe them with beer (though too much makes
things dangerous). Oh yeah, for the removal of my tranny we used a jack -
Jack is my dad. We also used a David, a John , and Tom. It really helps
that they are all nice & big ('cept little old me).
All kidding aside, I refuse to use jacks for tranny removal. My dad & I can
easily work a tranny into position for instalation. Actually, my dad removed
the 999 automatic tranny from our Jeep Scrambler by himself (he's a REAL man).
One person plays Mr. bench press and the other person rotates & adjusts things
to get the fit right.
Once the tranny is out it is easy to change the clutch.
As to clutch choices, I went with the locak AutoZone clutch brand
"Cumberland". It is a basic OEM type clutch. I went this route because the
price was only $120 for clutch, preasure plate & throw out bearing. This was
also with a lifetime warrantee. I can take this thing back once a week if I
feel like it & I get a new one no questions asked. With this offer, and my
driving style, I saw no need for a high dollar clutch. It is easy to depress
the clutch - a big plus for when the little lady drives. I have yet to have
any problems with it in the 4 trail rides I have been on since it was put in.
By the way, my last clutch lasted over 60,000 miles, but was changed because
the tranny was out anyway. It could have easily gone longer.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:43:48 -0700
From: "Brandon Miller"
Subject: Re: Clutch Replacement Prices / How many bananna Job?
If you can find a spare football team go for it, I have pulled my tranny
more times than I can count with 2 hands, and with a floor jack. You got to
pull it back out of the splins and then let it down easy, leave the tcase
and the crossmember on for support. You can buy a transmission plate for
the jack with a strap if you want but I don't find that necessary since you
can balance it with the crossmember.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:15:42 -0400
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Tranny Removal
John had the tranny problem:
Luke wrote:
We dropped the tranny....
we couldn't hold the flywheel in place to use the breaker bar...
- ----
Here's the easy way to do it.
Plan a wheelin trip.
Invite Ed (me) and Agustinus.
Make sure he brings DiDi (sp?)
Tell Ed to bring the SSTs
Suffer a breakdown on the trail
Have the clutch put in at camp...
In all seriousness...
To get the flywheel out
> easy way - call Eastwood tools and get a
flywheel turner $12.99
1-800-345-1178
(Not my favorite tool shop - but they
are 5 miles from work..)
> get a "pry bar" - the kind that has a slight
bend in one end and has a "chisel" on the
same end. Using a floor stand (not the one
that is holding the truck up!) wedge
the pry bar and the stand in such a way that
the chisel end engages one of the ring gear
teeth and turning the flywheel wedges the
pry bar tighter. Use the 1/2" breaker on the
flywheel bolts and lean...
To answer Luke's point about the lack of a need for
a "tranny jack" - I do my tranny R&R solo....
So I need a tranny jack.
The hardest part (now Ive got it down to about 30 min
of swearing) is getting the tranny seated when you are
working on it solo.
The current trick is
use a bottle jack (the OEM jack works, but I have this
weird "scisior" platform jack) and some 4x4 posts cut
to 2 foot lenghts and stacked under the engine - use the
jack to "maintain" the tip angle of the engine when you
removed the tranny.
Use the tranny jack to hold the tranny at a certain "level"
Use a floor jack on the xfer case to "tip" the tranny at
different angles.
Get the tranny to the proper level so that the input
shaft can enter the pressure plate.
Use the floor jack to tip the tranny to the angle necessary
to get the tranny "in".
Here's the hard part - when the tranny goes in and goes
in properly - the "splash shield" will not have any "slack"
in it. You should be able to "rap" on it and is should
sound solid. If the spash shield "rattles" - the tranny is
not in.
DO NOT - DO NOT - DO NOT get the idea that
"I can drive it home by inserting the bolts and pulling
it in to the engine" - unless you like stripped threads
in your engine block.
So - using the floor jack (the nice kind that allow you
to release the pressure by twisting the handle are
really handy here) wiggle the tranny at various angles
until it sinks in - all the way..
(put in two bolts by hand - finger tight - just it case
it decides to "run away" and then take a BREAK - whew!)
For those of us who justify doing the work ourselves with
"It will cost $600 in labor to have a reputable shop
do the work so that means I get to spend $600 on tools" -
this has lead to a garage full of tools...
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 17:29:23 -0800
From: Jim Brink
Subject: Re: Clutch / Flywheel
Roger Brown, P.E. wrote:
> Are pilot bushings "universal" in nature, i.e. will they fit any
> flywheel/clutch combination?
No, most of them are a specific application.
> Does the same apply to the throwout bearing and is the OEM unit the best bet
> here, too?
Several types of T/O bearings too, even amongst Toyota cars and trucks.
I like to use OEM parts, but I'm just biased :)
> BTW: My tranny shop recommended replacing both pilot bushing and throwout
> bearing as well.
I'd have to say that these parts should always be replaced at clutch
time, given their operation/function and the difficulty of replacement.
Don't forget the rear main seal and transmission input seal either. Take
a close look at the (throwout) bearing retainer surface for gouges, the
clutch fork for wear and cracking, and the clutch fork pivot stud for
excessive wear.
- --
Jim Brink
------------------------------
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