Differentials - Lockers
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Locker in front or back?
From: Jerry Fields
Date: 20 Mar 1996 17:58:50 GMT
It never fails to amaze me how an idea so simple can cause so much
debate...
Start with this scenario:
2wd, open diff, 1 drive wheel on pavement, other on gravel or dirt.
Torque from axles is 400 ft lbs. Wheel on gravel starts to spin at 100 ft
lbs of torque; total power available to move vehicle is "spinning point",
or 100 ft lbs in this example.
Add a locked diff. Spinning wheel forces wheel on pavement to rotate.
Power available to move vehicle jumps up to full 400 ft lbs, assuming the
"spinning point" of wheel on pavement is above 400.
Jump to 4wd, open diffs. 2 wheels on pavement, 2 wheels on gravel or
dirt. One wheel on each axel must spin under power. "Spinning point" is
still 100, but now force available to move vehicle is 200 ft lbs, as each
wheel spinning on gravel/dirt has 100 ft lbs of power.
Lock diffs. Wheels on pavement forced to turn. 400 ft lbs available to
move vechicle.
4wd gives a better chance of at least one driven wheel having better
traction than the others, and locked diffs will put the maximum available
power to the ground. The limiting factor is the highest spinning point of
any one of the 4 tires.
If you have only 1 locking diff in a 4wd, where do you put it? As in most
questions, there is no best answer. Rock crawlers may put it in front;
weight ditribution is such that the spinning point will be higher for a
front wheel than a rear wheel. If you are after maximum traction, the
front location is best.
However, when going up a rough slope, the front end tends to bounce off
the ground, effectivly decreasing the spinning point of the tires. I
don't know if the weight transfer effect evens out the spinning points of
front/rear tires.
For street runners who see some off road use, I would install the locker
in the rear. When you need to use it, it will insure that one front and
both back tires must turn at all times, which is usually enough for
street or moderate off-road situations.
There is less stress on the locker due to one tire overrunning the other,
it is easier for the rear tires to scrub off the rotation differential.
This puts less stress on all the driveline components, leading to longer
life and less breakage.
I suspect, but can't prove, that a locker in the rear will give fewer
handling anomalies than a front locker.
IMHO, of course.
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Differential Locker Question
From: Tom Mosca
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:02:23 -0400
Dear Jeff,
> 1) What are the drawbacks to (cheaper) limited slip type lockers
> (Dana trac-lock, a few Detroit lockers). Do they increase tire
> wear and axle strain on road?
Limited slip differentials (LS) and "lockers" (automatic positive
locking differentials) are two different animals. The LS is a (usually)
clutch device that essentially doesn't completely release the high traction
side. However, the high traction side does slip, to a degree determined
by the traction of the clutches. A locker positively locks the two
sides together, so that neither side ever turns slower than the ring
gear. If a situation is encountered in which one side must turn at a
different speed from the other, the locker releases the faster side.
Consider a turn on a clean, dry, paved road. The LS will allow the inside
wheel to slip, and power will be uninterrupted to the outside (faster
turning) wheel. A locker will release the outside wheel, and power will
be transmitted to the inner, slower wheel. This distinction is important
if one frequently get's into situations requiring extreme traction. On
the other hand, most of us are well served by a good LS. I like the
Auburn myself, and have one in each of my offroad vehicles.
Both the LS and locker increase tire wear and axle strain on the
road, to different degrees (LS is less). I have not noticed a measurable
change since I installed the first Auburn in my '94 K1500.
Another point that may be important to some people, myself included,
is lockers can be squirrely. You'll learn to live with it soon enough, but
if you let other people drive your truck it could cause trouble. For
example, if you're going around a fairly tight curve and hit the throttle,
some lockers will lock the axles. This will cause the truck to jump
and squeal. You won't mind, because you know why it happened. If it
happens to your friend, he may be very surprised! There may even be a
liability question.
> 2) Is Lock-Right a limited slip type locker? How does it compare to
> Detroits ez-locker or Dana Trac-lock? Any other good ones under $350?
The Lock-Right is a locker. My brother runs one in his Toyota and
likes it. You should call them (1-800-LOCKERS) for their brochure.
> 3) Is it better to lock the front or rear differential if only doing one?
> (Is it possible to lock the front end when an automatic hub design
> is used?)
Lock or LS the rear. Just being in 4WD makes steering hard enough,
locking the front diff makes it even harder. If locking both, an Air
Locker makes a lot of sense. Use the front locker only when really
needed. An LS in the rear and Air Locker up front should get you out
of any place you care to get into.
Automatic hubs are compatible with lockers.
> 4) Is it possible to install it yourself, and are there any/many additional
> parts needed not included with the lockers?
You're probably better off paying a professional, but it can be done
in a well equipped home workshop. You'll need the proper dial indicator
setup to measure backlash, otherwise you can't do it right. Getting diffs
in and out is hard work, they don't just drop in. It is possible to cause
significant damage in the process. The Lock Right is the exception here.
When you choose a shop, look for one that regularly works on diffs. We
have a shop here where I live that takes apart truck 2-speed diffs all
the time, and I trust them. Your average gas-station mechanic shouldn't
be given this job. However, there are exceptions.
Consider putting in bearings if your truck isn't relatively new. You
won't want to open it up again in the near future. If the company you
deal with will take them back if not needed, get a shim kit. Then you
won't be waiting on the lift for Fed-Ex.
You may wish to call Reider Racing (1-800-357-1330) and talk to one
of their helpful, well-informed technicians (I have no connection other
than as a satisfied customer).
Take care, Tom
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Differential Locker Solution (Dana 35)
From: jhemmett@cc0188.pd9.ford.com (Jeffrey G Hemmett)
Date: 3 Jun 1996 13:13:07 GMT
Hi,
Thanks for all the posted/e-mailed help. With the help of you all and
some input from reider racing, I've decided to go with a Dana Trac-Lok (sp?),
a limited slip unit, in the rear, nothing in the front. Not the most
glamorous solution, but very functional and very inexpensive. I'll share
what I found for anyone else wondering about Locking/Limited Slip Diffs,
particularly for Dana 35 rear and Dana 30 front. I'll try to give the gist
of it without getting too technical. No laughing and pointing by any of you
locking diff gurus out there.
There are many limited slip units that offer better power transfer than the
trac-lok (Auburn gear, Detroit True Track, Dana Power Lok) but none of them
fit the Dana 35. Some of those fit the Dana 30 (my front Diff), but this
is not recommended for a daily driver that doesn't have manually locking hubs.
The handling is effected by the linking of the axles, + the propellor shaft is
turned, increasing mechanical drag.
All limited slip differentials, with the possible exception of the Detroit
True-Track, are not maintence free. They consist of clutch plates which wear,
and must be replaced every 35K miles (or more/less, depending on your driving -
and this is for the Trac-Lok in particular (and 30" tires)). This is not too
expensive though, $55 or so for the plates, maybe $50-60 for installation. Also,
special additives/differential fluid must be used when changing the fluid. This
isn't necessarily more expensive, but you must be aware of it.
Locking diffs offer better power transfer than a limited slip unit, but with
the exception of ARBs they have a greater detrimental effect on handling and
tire wear than a limited slip type unit, particularly on short wheelbase vehicles.
This may not be a problem if your 4x4 is not your daily driver, but is not
recommended for short wheelbase daily drivers.
Installation is best left to a profesional, no matter what option you choose,
unless you are unusually experienced with gears/mechanical power transmission.
Gear backlash must be measured prior to installation, and then shims must be
added/subtracted to reproduce this backlash after installation. I also under-
stand that, with a few exceptions, these units don't just glide right in and
require a bit of convincing with a mallet. This could get ugly if you haven't
done it before. The clutch plates may be replaced by yourself though, as long
as your careful to note the position of the unit prior to removal.
Again, thanks for all your help. I have no affiliation with but have had an
excellent experience with Reider Racing, they will talk on the phone for a long time,
even if it doesn't sound like you are buying anything (I spoke with several people
several times, and then drove down there, before deciding what to do). They will even
talk you out of buying something you think you want if it wouldn't work for you (hence
all my mentions of "daily drivers" and short wheelbase vehicles).
-Jeff
=======
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Limited Slip Differentials
From: wpoole@aa.net (Willis)
Date: 10 Jun 1996 17:15:29 GMT
All this talk about limited slip and trac-lock brings to mind my
first day out off road with a 1991 4.0 with trac-loc Wrangler and red of
course. I tried to creep thru a 1 foot wide 6 inches deep water run off
path on this dirt road in dry condition and my jeep would just spin the
weak rear tire, I dont believe in backing up and throwing myself at the
little ditch..but was so p.o.ed I turned around and went directly to my
local dealer, got lucky they had a canx, put the jeep on a rack tore down
the diff and the clutch plates were in pieces..replaced them. I went down
the street and bought a winch..that solved my problem. Never had any
confidence in trac-loc after that.
I think the perfect solution is to buy the vehicle with an open
diffs at both ends and add air lockers to be engaged when you need them
and also gives you a source of air for tires. Posi traction are murder in
slick conditions..too much rear end swapping where as open axles stay
straight with front left and right rear wheels pulling. Ask any mountain
4X4 guys which axle they want in the snow on small snowy roads.
I have found that limited slip kicks in at the wrong time and you lose
control..I want to be in control..so my next jeep/truck will be open
axles and air lockers..and driving for the road conditions. I also like
this arrangement if I lose or break a rear drive shaft..I can drive out
on front wheels if needed.
--
-Willis...
________________________________________
Master Sergeants may not always be right...
but we are never wrong.. :)
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Limited Slip Differentials
From: Jerry Bransford
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:10:59 -0700
Glenn Wiltse wrote:
>
> I don't do much mountain driving, so I wouldn't know what mountain 4x4
> guys want, but I want more traction and I don't want to have to put a
> locker in my new truck. I'd much rather have a limited slip diff then
> not, assuming the locker is more hassle then I want or need to go
> through for my limited off road use. There's noting to prevent me
> from installing a locker later if I decide I need one.
>
> Besides sliding sideways is sooo much fun... I don't know what
> kind of limited slip diffs you have driven, but I have not had
> any problems with them jumping in unexpectedly and throwing my
> vehicle into any uncontrolable spins.
>
> In article <4phl7h$eht@holly.aa.net>, Willis wrote:
> > Posi traction are murder in
> >slick conditions..too much rear end swapping where as open axles stay
> >straight with front left and right rear wheels pulling. Ask any mountain
> >4X4 guys which axle they want in the snow on small snowy roads.
WHAT??? I drive in snow and on small snowy roads and wouldn't want any
type axle BUT a limited slip!!! I've had both types of axles on 4X4
vehicles (3 with LS, and 1 without) and have NEVER had anything but
positive experiences with LS and negative experiences with those I've
owned without LS.
--
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P.
The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Q: Limited slip only in front diff.?
From: "M. Whatley"
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 03:33:06 -0700
> Paul (Plammer@microsoft.com) wrote:
> stuff deleted
> :
> : If I'm only going to lock one diff., what are the
> : benefits/disbenefits to only upgrading the front diff.?
> : I would like to hear anyone's opinions or prererably experiences
> : in this area.
If you're looking at a full locker, not just a limited slip, I would
recomend that you upgrade the rear first. A locker in the front will often
try to fight your steering input when it is grabbing for traction,
particularly in short wheelbase rigs with manual steering. You might as well
avoid that aggravation if you are only going to lock one end anyway.
Additionally you seldom need the locker when you are headed down hill, and
when climbing, the rear end locked would be more beneficial.
Of course if you spend a lot of time on the street, and don't want to deal
with the idiocencricies of a locked axle... Put it in the front and drive in
2 wheel drive with the hubs unlocked (which is what you should be doing on
the pavement anyway), you won't even know it's there.
A locker in the rear is not all that much of a problem on pavement in any
case. A little understeer when under power. A little oversteer when you let
off the gas. And it'll let you know if you rear tires aren't evenly aired up
on every upshift. A couple of days to get used to it and no big deal. The
same goes for both ends locked (unless for some reason you drive around in
4x4 all the time on the pavement).
With a locker in the rear of my Cruiser, the only evidence of it's
presence when offroading is increased "Goability". I've witnesses the bruised
knuckles and fingers of a couple of friends who locked up only the front, as
well as listened to them complain about how much the trail took out of them
as they fought the steering. It doesn't seem quite so bad for some reason
when both ends are locked, but I have watched a couple of other (fully
locked) offroad buddies routinely line the vehicle up for a mudhole and then
hang on as it pretty much picked its own line as dictated by the grip that
the tires found.
Slow speed rock crawling or normal trail driving doesn't really bring
this out. Just heavy throttle use getting through mud and snow or up loose
and steep terrain that calls for more force than finese.
I'm not trying to dissuade you from locking both ends (I plan to
myself soon), just passing on some observations and experiences...
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Limited Slip Differentials
From: mindwarped@aol.com (Mindwarped)
Date: 8 Jul 1996 13:10:35 -0400
ok, heres an easy way that dont depend on markings, and works both front
and rear.
Take a jack and lift the whole end of the truck in the air, so both
tires are off the ground. Use jackstands to be safe, especially on a
heavy truck like that.
then have another person hold one of the tires with the tranny in neutral.
Spin the other tire and see what happens to the one that is being held.
if it either does nothing or spins in the opposite direction(if friend
aint holding it) then its an Open diff.
If it tries to spin the same way, then its a limited slip or locker.
then it takes more effort to tell between the two. Basically a limited
slip will eventually, if held strong enough, will slip whereas a locker
will probably still move both tires, and if it does give, will move really
jerky and make a clunk between stops in it
The One
THe Only
THANK GOD
MINDWARPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Toyota pickup rear diff sugestions
From: rmarsh@plains.nodak.edu (Ronald Marsh)
Date: 12 Jul 1996 16:59:17 GMT
The time has come to replace the rear diff. on my 1980 4x4 truck. I have
been considering a locking or limited slip type. Does anybody out there
have any recommendations for this truck?
Thanks
P.S. I am mostly concerned with snow/ice traction.
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Toyota pickup rear diff sugestions
From: ryna10@email.sps.mot.com (Jay Kopycinski)
Date: 12 Jul 1996 20:30:47 GMT
In article <4s6095$2v8@daily-planet.nodak.edu>, rmarsh@plains.nodak.edu
(Ronald Marsh) wrote:
> The time has come to replace the rear diff. on my 1980 4x4 truck. I have
> been considering a locking or limited slip type. Does anybody out there
> have any recommendations for this truck?
>
> Thanks
>
> P.S. I am mostly concerned with snow/ice traction.
I'd suggest an ARB or Downey LSD, but then again I
have one of each too.
-----------------------------------------------
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
Arizona Lo-Rangers ASA4WDC UFWDA
Fun Country Fourwheelers SWFWDA TLCA
-----------------------------------------------
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Toyota pickup rear diff sugestions
From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink)
Date: 14 Jul 1996 07:16:52 GMT
In article <4s6095$2v8@daily-planet.nodak.edu>,
rmarsh@plains.nodak.edu (Ronald Marsh) wrote:
>The time has come to replace the rear diff. on my 1980 4x4 truck. I have
>been considering a locking or limited slip type. Does anybody out there
>have any recommendations for this truck?
>
>Thanks
>
>P.S. I am mostly concerned with snow/ice traction.
You lucky guy: there is a TrueTrac, a gear driven LSD, available for your 8"
rear axle.
If you want to know how a gear driven LSD is different from others:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/main_4x4.htm
This is the only gear driven LSD available for Toyota 4x4's, albeit the 8"
also fits the front axle of recent (1990-) TLC's.
Not so for the 9" TLC rear axle....:-((((
Bye,
W.J. Markerink
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Lockers
From: dont@email.me (Erick)
Date: 13 Mar 1996 15:34:02 -0700
On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:51:42 LOCAL, Sean.T.Potter@tek.com
(Sean.T.Potter) wrote:
>In article <4h56lu$4kl@news.iag.net> morris@iag.net (morris) writes:
>
>>Looking to put a locker in a Toyota rearend (V6) and looking for comparisons
>>or experiences driving the different lockers available. Thanks in advance.
>
>I ran a Lock-Right in the back of my '94 Toy until I sold it a week ago (the
>whole truck). The lock-right worked great and did everything it was supposed
>to do, but I still wondered if a Detroit would have been a better choice. The
>lock-right was simple to put in (I'd never even seen the inside of a diff
>before) and should take about 3 hours. The 3rd member setup in the Toys makes
>it a snap to set up everything, just FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS and do all the
>little hints like marking everything so you won't have to pull it apart again.
> After it was in, it worked great. It releases in corners (most of the time,
>kinda depends on road conditions and how much weight is in the back) but
>sometimes would "clunk" really loud and literally bounce the back of the truck
>a few inches sideways when it locked up again. It definitely acted like a
>locker though, it would go great in the sand and in mud (phenomenal
>difference) but when the roads were icy, it went sideways pretty easily. I
>never really drove on open packed snow, it was either ice or fresh powder or
>deep ruts - it did great in the last two but like I said, going straight on
>ice in 2wd meant not accelerating or letting off the gas abruptly. I liked
>the lock right except the "clunk / bounce" thing it did occasionally. It was
>a good locker for the money ($329 through Central, about the lowest I found).
>I traded it in on an '89 F250, which has open diffs but not for long. Once
>you've had a locker, it's tough to go back to open diffs. Will I put another
>lock-right in my Ford? I doubt it, I'll probably go with a Detroit because I
>didn't like the clunk / bounce, and the Detroits look stouter than a couple of
>dog-gears that comprise the Lock-Right.
>
>Anyone else have any other info on Detroits I should know before I put one in
>my Ford? Will it behave the same? My friend's RamCharger with a
>Detroit-locked Dana 60 in the rear doesn't do the clunk / bounce thing, and
>neither does my friend's '70 Chevy K-20.
>
>Sean
>'89 Ford F250 460 5-speed
>'90 Yamaha(mmer) Banshee
>'93 CR 250
>plus 3 sleds, 2 jet skis, and a ski boat.
I own an 82 Toy with a detroit locker and 5.29 gears. I am incredibly
happy with the detroit. The clunk/bounce is next to none because of
the "soft locker" detroit now makes, which is what I have. It
disengages on turns, provides more traction than I thought I could
get, It is outstanding.
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Lockers
From: jsteele@azstarnet.com (Jerry Steele)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:39:13 LOCAL
I've run Detroits since 1983. Let me see, I've owned 4 Detroit Lockers and one
Lock-Right.
Lock-Rights are good, but if I have a vehicle that accepts either one, I will
use the Detroit.
I'm currently building two more Jeeps with Detroits front and rear.
End of story.
========
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:51:41 -0700
From: Erick
Subject: ARB vs. Detroit lockers
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
I was reading through an old listing that i forgot to read and noticed a
discussion on Lockers. I have a Detroit Soflocker and it is extremely
quiet. (I have never heard it clicking)
Ok here is what it does:
- --it will unlock in turns when i let off the gas
- --when i am turning from a stop, if i give it mild gas, it will unlock
in the turn.
If i give it too much gas, (about 2500rpms?), it locks up in turns...
so my question is this. does it lock under a certain amount of torque
on the pinion gear or what? cause i can gas it and it will axle hop
it's a$$ off in a turn, and the inside rear tire barks like a dog.
when it does this is it locking up or is the inside tire getting traction
without bearing the weight?
Erick
____________________________
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:25:53 +0000
From: "Mike Graham"
Subject: ARB vs. Detroit lockers
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
> so my question is this. does it lock under a certain amount of torque
> on the pinion gear or what?
No, it's not a torque-sensing device. Others are, it's not. What
it does is simply detect when one wheel is moving *faster* than the
other (it's a speed-sensing Traction Adding Device (TAD)) and switch
torque appropriately. In a turn, the outside wheel always overruns
the inside (unless you are fishtailing on loose surface or something,
and the wheels are moving much faster than the road) so the inside
wheel is pretty much *always* the driven wheel on a turn. As you
suspected, since the inside wheel doesn't have the weight on it, the
traction in a turn is *lessened* by a Detroit. The Detroit was
really, in my opinion, developed for drag racing muscle cars, where
you go in a straight line only. It was the toughness of the Detroit
that made it popular on offroad rigs, not the handling
characteristics.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:39:26 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: posts
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
I'm the owner of an '81 4x4 pickup (solid axle). I'm putting in new gears
and traction aids, and have two questions:
Gearing: stock tires were 28"; now I have Bridgestone Dueler A/T's on it
33"x12.5" (they're actually 32"). Truck weighs 3200 lbs. with a full tank,
and I haul a motorcycle trailer with a total weight of 900 lbs. Motor is
bone-stock, healthy, carbureted, 22R. I live at sea level but often travel
to 7-8000'. My gear choices are 4.88's or 5.29's (4.10 is stock). I use the
truck off-road from Baja to Oregon, especially rock-crawling in the
Sierras, and in Mojave/Nevada.
Downey sez use a 4.88; I can get good freeway mileage and good top speed of
close to 100 mph (not that I would want to go that fast). They say 5.29 is
about 12-13% shorter than stock, taking tire size into consideration, and
would limit highway speed and also be more prone to breakage than 4.88's.
Northwest sez use a 5.29; I'll appreciate the lower gear when towing and at
high altitudes, and that there should be "no problem" with fragility and
breakage.
I'm on the fence here; on one hand, 5.29 seems too low, but I don't want to
spend a load of dough at a gear shop putting all that in and find out that
4.88's still make the truck as bog-slow as it currently is! Anyone with
firsthand experience here?
Traction aids: Currently both pumpkins are open and unacceptable. Truck
gets a lot of highway miles but gets seriously wheeled all the time. Downey
sez use a Lock-Rite rear, open front. They say the Detroit Softlocker has
been taken off the market because of patent infringement on Lock-Rite, and
that I could get one "under the counter" for $175 with no documentation or
support. Northwest sez use a Detroit Softlocker rear, a Detroit Truetrac
front, and I can go anywhere I want and get back out again. I'm inclined to
go with the Detroit Softlocker/Truetrac combo, but would like to know from
anyone with firsthand experience. Also, anyone have hard evidence on the
Lock-Rite/SoftLocker controversy?
I'm relying mostly Downey and Northwest because local shops are about 99%
Chevy/Ford.
Also, where does Toyota get off raising the MSRP on FJ-80's $11,000 in one
model year? I went to buy one a couple of years ago, but found the base
price went from $26k in '92 to $37k in '93! Is it the influx of yuppie
moms?
L8R,
Nick
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 23:47:20 +0000
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
Subject: Light Truck Diffs (and more)
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
On 8 Oct 96 at 15:00, Stuart Banks wrote:
> To answer your question yes the third member can easily be dropped out of
> both the front and rear axles, no magic required. The gear ratios must be
> the same front and back.
> Now to ask a question, last week I stripped the ring and pinion in my rear
> diff, (84 4Runner) I've since swapped in a spare 3rd member and am back on
> the road so now I can take my time in rebuilding my 3rd member. My plan is
> to go to 4.88:1 (I now have the stock 4.11:1 and 31X10.5 BFG MTs) and move
> my LA locker(that was in the back) to the front and put either a Detroit
> Soft Locker or a Detroit True-Track in the rear. So the question is how
> does the Detroit SL compare to the LA in overall On-Road drivability and
> how does the True-Track perform Off-Road, in other words is the True-Track
> an "aggressive" limited slip.
The TrueTrac is not an aggressive unit; being a gear driven LSD, it
is a beauty in disguise. The gear driven species is the only one that
will allow you to go through a steep & narrow icy corner under
throttle, without inducing slip (by binding both wheels together,
like not only auto and manual lockers do, but friction LSD's under
throttle as well) or requiring slip to lock up (auto lockers, visco
units). An gear driven LSD is the only one that will always allow a
certain % of rotational difference in corners, without needing slip
to operate.
They are comparable with the Torsen units as used Audi Quattro's,
Hummers and the Toyota Megacruiser.
For the tough stuff, ie airborn wheel situations, you can apply the
brakes to get close to locker like performance. The same trick
doesn't work nearly as good with friction LSD's....
If you want to learn more about these Traction Adding Devices in
general, see the TAD-FAQ on my homepage:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/main_4x4.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:46:13 -0500
From: "Jay Kopycinski-RYNA10"
Subject: Re- Light Truck Diffs...
To: "wsmuir@islandnet.com%azbcsm1" ,
Subject: Time: 8:27 AM
OFFICE MEMO Re: Light Truck Diffs... Date: 10/8/96
>Here are my questions:
>Are the diffs front and back the same apart from the ratios?
On live axle trucks, the front and rear third members are interchangeable.
Ratios should also be the same.
>Is the only artform involved getting the adjustment of the pinion and ring
correct?
You need to tighten the pinion and bearings correctly as well as setting the
proper pinion depth. Then you will need a dial indicator to set the backlash
of the ring gear (ring to pinion play).
>Can I simply remove the 3rd members and take them down to the tranny shop with
>new ring and pinions and have them to the magic and just bring them back and
>throw them in?
Yes, this will save you a good number of bucks.
>He did a buick rear-end that didn't last very long. He mentioned something
>about dye contact patterns between pinion and ring that are supposed to tell
>you if the thing is set up properly. This part I will take to the shop.
Once the gears are all in (pinion depth and backlash set) you smear some
dye (looks kinda like oil paint in a tube) on the gear mating surfaces. You
then spin the pinion flange and check the wear/contact pattern as the
dye gets smeared around the gears. This is a final check to ensure the
pinion depth and backlash are correct.
>Carrier/Member removal.
>
>The gist that I got was that there seem to be 2 kinds of carriers?
>He referred to one of them as a drop out diff. and says they are no-brainer's
>to remove.
Toyotas (like a F**d 9" use what is called a third member. The axles have
no inspection plate. Instead, you remove ten bolts and pull the whole
gear set out of the axle. This is done after the axle shafts have been
removed. Third member setup is done on a bench.
>The other one involved a rather elaborate procedure of either spreading or
>compressing parts that get left in the axle housing in order to remove
>the carrier. With the carrier re-seated, the process is reversed and then
fine >adjustment is required.
Other axles have no third member, so setup is done in the axle housing itself.
If the axle is on the truck, it means you have to work under the truck while
setting it up......not fun.
Toyota third members use threaded adjuster nuts on each side of the differential
carrier to adjust the bearing preload and backlash. Most other axles have no
such nuts, so the case must be spread and the carrier installed slightly
under tension using spacer shims.
Third member housings were used a lot in some '50s Chevy cars.
>Oh, and for all you TLC owners going through front end conversions,
>please be kind and ask the Truck owner for permission before removing
>birfields etc... B) Kinda like being a little lower on the food chain.
I don't know.......it is our parts they want.
Hope this helps.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:25:40 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron)
Subject: Light Truck Diffs
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
> Detroit SL compare to the LA in overall On-Road drivability and
>how does the True-Track perform Off-Road, in other words is the True-Track
>an "aggressive" limited slip.
What I have been told by friends who drive dual [automatic] lockered vehicles:
- -Detroits drive on-road better than lock-Rights, they ratchet less and are
a little smoother due to a different design in the camming action that
releases the dog clutches.
- -Detroits are stronger than Lock-Rights for serious off-roading.
- -The Soft Locker is "awesome" [and quite quiet compared to the regular Detroit].
- -The Lock-Right is really good for the budget 'wheeler. Some differentials
seem to have more grief than others. The Toyotas I know of have been
reasonably trouble-free.
From my own personal experience, mainly from observing the people I 'wheel with:
- -1 locker is equal to 2 LSDs or two True-Tracks.
- -In the really nasty loose stuff lockers are way better than LSDs or
True-Tracks.
- -LSDs *might* be a little teency bit better in the snow as far as driver
control of the vehicle is concerned. If the LSD is doing what it's supposed
to be doing then it should be similar to a locker in the snow.
Personal opinions etc...
- -I have lockers and would *never* get LSDs.
- -My lockered friends would never trade their lockers for LSDs.
- -Another friend insists that T-Ts are great off-road, she says this while I
am pulling a J--p up a hill she couldn't even drive up....Uh, she drives a
Wrangler (is that a bad word too?). [maybe that was the reason she couldn't
make it up...?!]
The reality of it:
- -See what others in your area are doing.
- -Ask *lots* of questions.
- -Do what you can afford.
- -If you think that you are going to save money by being "cheap" about
something it will end up costing you much, much more.
The T-T is not an LSD but a torque-sensing proportioning diff. Basically it
works on the principle that a worm gear can drive a spur gear and not the
other way around. They "drive" quite differently compared to an LSD.
See WJM's Homepage for some more details.
jbarron@uvic.ca
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:32:16 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron)
Subject: Lockright...in a big toy
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
Jonathon;
A few words to the wise regarding Lock-Rights and Easy Lockers:
These types of lockers are made for light to medium duty 4wheeling. They
are limited in strength by their design and the strength of the stock
differential carrier. They have a different method of disengagment than the
Detroit which causes the dog teeth to actually rub together lightly during
cornering. The Detroit uses a camming action to disengage the dog teeth and
they don't rub on each other during disengagement... The Detroit has it's
own carrier and is very strong. The Lock-Rights (and clones) don't need
very much damage to the dog teeth before they give up the ghost,
fortunately the Toyota applications seem to work very well. (can't say the
same for Jeep)
> Assuming that I can get one of these for, say
>around 200 bucks, how easy are they to install in a toy p/u rear end? Is
>this something that could be done in an afternoon??
The installation is very simple and could be done in a few hours. I would
highly recommend that you check the bearings, wear pattern of the gears and
replace the pinion seal while you are in there. Other parts you will need
are a crush collar, a housing gasket and new oil. Don't just use silicone
to seal the axle housing/diff housing as the gasket sets a tolerance too
(as do a lot of gaskets) and the gaskets are cheap. Don't be too cheap
about installation or it will end up costing you a lot more in long term.
If you are planning on removing the Lock-Right each season (which I doubt
you will do more than once or twice) you are looking at about 2-3 hours
each time and about $25-30.
> will be going in a toy p/u, with about 8-9" of lift,
>and 36" swampers...and winters here can be very icy. So, what I was
>considering, was to run the locker in the summer, and then just run it
>open in the winter...assuming that the changeover could be done
>realatively easily and quickly.
Okay, now for the real glue: The L-R and clones are not made for this size
of tire (36" Swampers), and the stock ring and pinion strength will be
marginal. AFAIK these parts (the lockers) are capable up to about 32-33
inch rubber before you will have serious reliability problems. Personal
experience also tells me that you should be carefully watching the strength
of parts with tires over 33" with both the front Birfields and the
lock-Right/carrier combo. You should be running at least 5.29 gears to
maintian your ratios for street driving. 4.88s will simply not cut it.
For the type of driving you are taliking about it is not a problem to keep
a locker in all the time --But-- **you must get used to driving it** and
if you let someone else drive they shoud be experienced driving with a
locker both in good and bad weather. Lockers are more predicatble in the
snow and ice than LSDs, forunately. --Take the time neceasary to learn the
peculiarities of driving with a locker--
If you are **really** wanting to re&re the locker for each change in season
then you should be considering the ARB or wait and see what the Command
Locker will be like. Please note that the Command Locker re-uses the stock
carrier and that limits its strength.
The detroit locker is by far the best choice for this application if you
want an automatic locker. If you want a seasonal locker then get the ARB as
you can turn it on and off. These replacement diffs are VERY strong.
...You really do get what you pay for!! If you are really concerned about
saving $10 then you are buying the locker for all the wrong reasons. If you
have to stick to the Lock-Right or Easy-Locker then you should be very sure
about the limitations that each has in their warranty policies. It sounds
like the Detroit or ARB are what you should really be considering. The
money spent now will save you money later.
j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 00:17:09 +0000
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
Subject: Lockright...in a big toy
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
On 5 Nov 96 at 11:32, John Barron wrote:
> For the type of driving you are taliking about it is not a problem to keep
> a locker in all the time --But-- **you must get used to driving it** and
> if you let someone else drive they shoud be experienced driving with a
> locker both in good and bad weather. Lockers are more predicatble in the
> snow and ice than LSDs, forunately.
Mmm....either there's 1) a typo in the last sentence, or 2) this is a
strong personal opinion, or 3) you are referring to a Eaton/GM Gov-Lock.
Most people rate friction based LSD's (Auburn/PowerBrute as the most
common variety) as more predictable in snow & ice than full auto
lockers (which I tend to call the Eaton as well).
- --
Bye,
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:46:23 -0800
From: jhassi@foothill.net (Jim Hassi)
Subject: Lockright...in a big toy
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
John Barron wrote:
>>Okay, now for the real glue: The L-R and clones are not made for this size
of tire (36" Swampers), and the stock ring and pinion strength will be
marginal. AFAIK these parts (the lockers) are capable up to about 32-33
inch rubber before you will have serious reliability problems. Personal
experience also tells me that you should be carefully watching the strength
of parts with tires over 33" with both the front Birfields and the
lock-Right/carrier combo. You should be running at least 5.29 gears to
maintian your ratios for street driving. 4.88s will simply not cut it.
<<
John-
I realize that you were talking mainlyaout minis. In terms ofCruiser axles,
I disagree-
Most of the guys in our club as well as the two other clubs that I see
(Marauders, Toys on the Rocks) run BFG MT 35's and a few 36 or 38 swampers.
Very few if any that I am aware of are running more than the stock 4:10
gears in the axles (though most trannys are non US or sm 420/465). While I
have seen Birfields go (always in reverse with wheels cranked - myself, I
have my stops all the way out) and have seen one pinion go (it was a front
3rd member from a cruiser used as a tractor run in the rear also in
reverse), I think that the stock axles are up to the task.
As for minis, the front axles and Birfields are stouter than many Cruiser
setups.
I do not disagree about the Lock Rites. They do not seem to last in the
rigs that I have seen them in. For now, I choose Auburns and wil probably
put a Command locker in the rear when they are proven. BTW the Auburns are
EXCELLENT in snow on the roads. Offroad in deep snow, the guys with ARBs
kick my butt, but otherwise I like the Auburns (or Moroso) LSD. (Dude I'm
trippin!)
Just my $0.02 (USD) ;)
Jim
'71 FJ-40 (V8 350,spring over,flip'd, discs, PS,SM465, Auburns, 35" BFG/MT)
'85 FJ-60
Member TLCA, Toyotally Awesome Cruisers
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:18:05 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron)
Subject: Lockright...in a big toy (LSDs in snow)
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>From: Willem-Jan Markerink
>Subject: Lockright...in a big toy
>
>On 5 Nov 96 at 11:32, John Barron wrote:
>
>> For the type of driving you are taliking about it is not a problem to keep
>> a locker in all the time --But-- **you must get used to driving it** and
>> if you let someone else drive they shoud be experienced driving with a
>> locker both in good and bad weather. Lockers are more predicatble in the
>> snow and ice than LSDs, forunately.
>
>Mmm....either there's 1) a typo in the last sentence, or 2) this is a
>strong personal opinion, or 3) you are referring to a Eaton/GM
>Gov-Lock.
>Most people rate friction based LSD's (Auburn/PowerBrute as the most
>common variety) as more predictable in snow & ice than full auto
>lockers (which I tend to call the Eaton as well).
>
No, there's no typo, even though my typing is usually full of them. My
opinion is formed from my own experience and from the opinions and the
experiences of others.
The reason for what I say is thus: A locker has a constant, or pretty
nearly constant, force required to unlock the diff to allow differentiation
to take place. An LSD on the other hand does not. There are variables that
act on an LSD that cause differing levels of clutch activity and holding
power...such as temperature, oil type and lubricity, wear of the clutches
etc... The locker therefore has a much more preditable and consistant
pattern of maintaining traction in lousy situations like snow and ice. The
LSD, if it's working as designed, should act as a locker (or a spool in a
tight LSD) for all intent and purpose in very slick situations. Snow and
ice are very slick situations...this is where an LSD will basically
remained "locked"....
So what's the difference then? Well the difference lies in the fact that an
LSD never really acts the way it should and it will apply differing amounts
of traction/drive to each wheel depending on the conditions and the wear,
quality and type of LSD etc... This differing amount of traction at each
wheel makes things a little less predictable... SO driving with a locker,
in my humble opinion, is better in "bad" conditions than an LSD because you
can be quite sure about the traction that you are getting at each wheel.
I would like to stress that one must practice driving with any type of
traction adding diff in "bad" conditions as it *will* change the way you
and your vehicle will respond/react.
Regarding the Eaton (Gov-Lock): This is not really a very good product for
off-road use as it has a number small pieces contained within its mechanism
that can be problematic. The Gov-Locker also has the habit of shocking the
drivetrain during the locking-up process...this can cause the "locker" to
explode (a really amazing sight so I am told... all those little pieces...)
or an axle to twist a spline etc... It has a number of other draw-backs and
a few advantages but this is not the place to discuss it.
j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:49:17 -0800
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: TRD
To: TLCAL@TLCA.ORG
I wrote :
>> BTW, if your truck is a daily driver, as well as your toy, I recommend
>> going with a TRD limited slip, rather than a locker.
Willem-Jan Markerink replied :
>Okay, I'll bit again: what is a TRD?
TRD is a company called Toyota Racing Development (TRD) that specializes
in desert racing and pre-running type stuff. The have a limited slip unit
that has steel clutches (lasts a long time) and great traction. The guy
who installed it (for $600) suggested to put in 85-140 straight gear lube
and to add posi-additive only if it chatters too much ( I haven't added
it yet, since I wanted maximum traction and my 17 year-old daughter drives
the 4Runner a lot, and doesn't even feel it back there). They are only
made for mini's and 4Runners, AFAIK.
I love it. I am open in front, and have done Rubicon, Dusy and Barrett
Lake trails, without getting stuck. (Did have to get strapped in Fordyce,
though, mostly due to drive error) . I had a Detroit on my '85 pickmeup,
and I don't feel that I have lost much, traction-wise. The 4Runner is my
daily driver, so I love the way it drives on the road, and in parking lots,
I can't tell its there except for a soft vibration on turns occasionally.
TRD doesn't seem to advertise, but most differential/4wd shops seem to know
about them.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:27:29 -0500
From: Brad DeVries
Subject: TRD (was "Welcome Aboard Cory")
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>On 7 Nov 96 at 19:02, Rick Murray wrote:
>
>> BTW, if your truck is a daily driver, as well as your toy, I recommend
>> going with a TRD limited slip, rather than a locker. More expensive
>> than Lockrite, cheaper than ARB, yet very durable, with near-locker
>> traction. Can't tell its there while on the highway, and much easier
>> on the axles and u-joints, as well.
And Willem-Jan replied:
>Okay, I'll bit again: what is a TRD?
>
I don't know if it's the same one, but the only TRD I know is "Toyota Racing
Development," a Toyota division that sells performance upgrades for their
products. I got their catalog looking for some exhaust and suspension
upgrades for '83 Supra (like I have money for that after getting this
Cruiser on the road, HA!), and was very disappointed to find nothing at all
for the older Toyota Supras. They do sell headers and a few other products
for the 22R, 22RE and the V-6 motors, but the only product in the whole
catalog I could use on either of my Toys was a TRD *Locker* (not an LSD)
that would run on older TLCs and mini trucks. Which begs the question; who
makes this locker for Toyota/TRD???
BRAD DeVRIES, TLCA #3704, Capital Land Cruiser Chapter
"TOYOTA LAND CRUISER: Why get lost in the crowd, when there are so many more
interesting places to do it?"
'73 FJ40.........'83 Supra.........'77 Richard Sachs
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:52:00 -0500
From: Brad DeVries
Subject: TRD (was "Welcome Aboard Cory")
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
At 11:39 PM 11/11/96 +0000, Willem-Jan replied to my fumbling attempts to
describe from memory the locker sold by TRD:
>
>Don't care who makes it, I want to know how it works!
>Can't figure out what they mean with *older* TLC's and minitrucks.
"They" didn't mean anything -- I was trying to recall just what model years
the catalog listed; since I knew they covered my model year (1973), I didn't
notice much beyond that. I'm not at all familiar with the 80-series
differential, since my attention starts to wander when the conversation
starts to head past about 1980...
>Either it fits all TLC's, *or* minitrucks, but never at the same
>time.
>
Unless, of course, those crafty folks at TRD make (or buy) different models
for different applications. Which they do. I'm looking at my TRD catalog,
and you will shortly know absolutely everything I do about the TRD Locker...
The catalog copy reads: "LOCK IT UP. TRD's automatic 'Positive Locking'
differential gives you the most traction possible, while still providing the
turning ease of vehicles with standard differentials. And because they're
fully automatic, you can drive on-road or off road without the noisy, harsh
operation of other 'lockers.' Precision machining and high strength steel
make them rugged and dependable. And installation is easy. No set up,
special tools or calibration is required because the ring and pinion gears
are unaffected." And the fine print reads: "Note: Intended primarily for
off-road use. When not locked, you may hear a clicking sound while cornering."
The picture in the TRD catalog looks just like an E-Z Locker (looks like the
same design, apparently the same number of pieces, uses the existing carrier
), although I don't have any way to know if they actually are the same. The
description of their operation and installation would fit the E-Z Locker too.
The applications listed in the catalog (all rear axle) are as follows:
7.8" Dia. Ring Gear w/ 2 pinion carrier
2WD 1969-1995 $399
4WD 1979-1995 $399
7.8" Dia. Ring Gear w/ 4 pinion carrier
V-6 & 1986-1995 $338
Turbo 4 Cyl.
7.5" Dia. Ring Gear w/ 2 pinion carrier
1/2 Ton, 5-Lug 1969-1995 $399
Land Cruiser 1969-1995 $418
So now you know all I know about the TRD Locker.
Cheers,
BRAD DeVRIES, TLCA #3704/Capital Land Cruiser Chapter
'73 FJ40, '83 Supra, '77 Richard Sachs
"TOYOTA LAND CRUISER -- Your world just got a whole lot bigger."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 14:07:11 +0000
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
Subject: EZ-Locker or LockRight
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
On 4 Dec 96 at 0:30, Dave Burdette wrote:
> I'm getting ready to put a locker in the rear of my 88 Toyota V6 4x4
> Pickup (8"diff). I am looking at either a Detroit EZ-Locker or a LockRight.
> The truck is a daily-driver and is used off-road 2-3 times a month. 31"BFG's
> now, maybe 33" later.
>
> I'm interested in real world experiences with these lockers. Noise,
> drivability, durability and so on.
Do you ever see snow and ice onroad?
If so, stay away from them, and buy a TrueTrac or Auburn, or fork out
the $$$$ for an ARB. You can also wait for the electric Command
Locker, but a TLC application is first in line, with an ETA of
summer 97.
- --
Bye,
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 10:07:25 -0800
From: Paul Whitaker
Subject: Lockers for Toy pickups
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 00:30:24 -0800
>From: Dave Burdette
>Subject: EZ-Locker or LockRight
>To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
>I'm getting ready to put a locker in the rear of my 88 Toyota
>V6 4x4 >Pickup (8"diff). I am looking at either a Detroit EZ-Locker
>or a /.LockRight.
>The truck is a daily-driver and is used off-road 2-3 times a month. 31"BFG's
>now, maybe 33" later.
>
> I'm interested in real world experiences with these lockers. Noise,
>drivability, durability and so on.
>
>Thanks.
I just so haapened to have a detroit locker installed in the back of my
88 toyota v-6 yesterday. It is pretty nice. Takes a little getting
used to. It is also my daily driver. Suprisingly quiet. I had a
chance to take to some spots over in half moon bay, california last
night. The locker WORKS I was going through ditches and boulders that
I could have never made it through without one. I also had a chance to
test it in some mud. We were travleing along a dirt lot trying to get
back on the highway when we landed up in a marsh, my tires were quickly
sinking, I just reversed slowly out, no problem. It's a little weird it
dosn't really work like a posi-traction device(I have a mustang with an
auburn in it runs 12's@115) and I have found the way to whip donuts and
such is to first start out going straight then once it's locked up whip
it and it will stay locked otherwise it will just unlock as you counter
steer. But so far so good. Definately get one. Oh and I only have
30" all terrains.
Paul
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 00:59:08 +0000
>From: Willem-Jan Markerink
>Subject: EZ Locker or Lockrite
>To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
>On 5 Dec 96 at 7:26, Whatley,Mark wrote:
>
>> > I'm interested in real world experiences with these lockers. Noise,
>> > > drivability, durability and so on.
>> >
>> > Do you ever see snow and ice onroad?
>> > If so, stay away from them, and buy a TrueTrac or Auburn, or fork out
>> > the $$$$ for an ARB. You can also wait for the electric Command
>> > Locker, but a TLC application is first in line, with an ETA of
>> > summer 97.
>>
>>
>>
>> I get SO TIRED of seeing this! I drive on snow and ice at least 6
>> months out of every year. Been doing it for years. In the past I ran
>> over 80 miles daily up and down frozen rivers all winter long. In my
>> experience, if the characteristics of a locker cause you problems on
>> icey roads, then you need some serious work on your driving technique
>> anyway. If you have driven with a locker for more than a day or two, IT
>> SIMPLY ISN"T A PROBLEM. I have zero complaints about the behavior of me
>> Lockright on slick surfaces.
>
>Sorry Mark, but any device that drives the inside tire in a corner is
>not what I call predictable. Your positive opinion is snowed under
>by dozens of negative ones. And not only on performance, but also on
>life expectancy. The Detroit only stands up to the latter. Not
>surprisingly for a device that originates from drag star
>races....these tracks tend to be pretty straight forward....8-))
>
>An Austrian friend recently tried to obtain a TrueTrac for a Hilux,
>but got a LockRight instead. Just for experience, he mounted it
>anyway. I have never heard a man curse like that
>through the phone, and this is from a guy that is an experienced
>desert rat, yet sees snowy and icy Austrian alpine roads 8 months a
>year. Guess what, he tried the Lockright in mid summer....8-))
>He would rather put a gun to his head than drive it in winter....
>
>Ah well, maybe he was spoiled by the Quaife's he mounts in Land
>Rovers....;-))
>
>
>- --
>------------------------------
>Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 10:49:22 -0800
>From: Paul Whitaker
>Subject: Detorit Locker
>To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
>I also agree with Mark William, I just had a detroit installed in my 88
>toy and I have driven on it for 2 day's and it is harmless. Also The
>outside wheel is driven around turns not the inside. You just have to
>learn how to drive with a locker. Let up into turns when it rains and
>you will be fine. I just so happened to have rain the last two day's
>over here in S.F. so I have first hand experiences with it. I also only
>have 30" tires which dosn't help. I do not know about the lockrite but
>the detroit locker is very nice. I have yet to hear it disengage and
>engage. It is just plain quiet. Maybe it was the installer who caused
>the lockrite to be a pian in the @#$. I don;t know.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 22:12:08 +0000
>From: Willem-Jan Markerink
>Subject: Detorit Locker
>To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
>On 6 Dec 96 at 10:49, Paul Whitaker wrote:
>
>> I also agree with Mark William, I just had a detroit installed in my 88
>> toy and I have driven on it for 2 day's and it is harmless. Also The
>> outside wheel is driven around turns not the inside.
>
>That is simply not true. The outside, faster spinning wheel is
>allowed to freewheel, the inside wheel spins at the same rpm as the
>ring gear. I have dragged this to death on the Offroad list, the
>final point was that even under heavy torque, given sufficient grip
>at the inside wheel, the outer wheel will still freewheels.
>The bottom line is: no wheel is allowed to spin faster than the ring
>gear, only slower. This works in both forward and reverse mode
>(about a year ago I caused many headaches on the OR-list, by asking
>how it operated downhill, in case of engine braking. It does, as it
>does in reverse driving.)
>
>
>> You just have to
>> learn how to drive with a locker. Let up into turns when it rains and
>> you will be fine.
>
>I never said it wasn't *effective*. Heck, even a spool is effective.
>I don't question that, I just question the stage where it goes from
>open to lock on pavement. With a driven inside wheel, risk of slip
>increases, and a locked axle in a turn is not something to wave away
>with 'learn how to drive'. That won't help you if you have to
>accellerate *hard* to get on a heavy traffic main road coming from a
>side road. You'll just have to accept that fish tailing has a rather high
>probability in that case. You can't coast through that corner....
>
>> I just so happened to have rain the last two day's
>> over here in S.F. so I have first hand experiences with it. I also only
>> have 30" tires which dosn't help. I do not know about the lockrite but
>> the detroit locker is very nice. I have yet to hear it disengage and
>> engage. It is just plain quiet. Maybe it was the installer who caused
>> the lockrite to be a pian in the @#$. I don;t know.
>
>Seems indeed as if only the Lockright and E-Z Locker are noisy and
>clattering, by rubbing dog clutches together *all the time*, unlike
>the Detroit Locker. Yet the old Detroit locker/NoSpin *was* noisy
>and clunky (not ratcheting/rattling). But nobody cared about that in
>dragstar races....;-))
>
>
>- --
>Bye,
>
>
>[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
>
>------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:14:00 -0800 (PST)
From: fosters@OctoNet.com (nadine foster)
Subject: LockRight lockers
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>David Booth wrote
> I looking for anyone who has or had a Lock-Right in their Toyota 4x4.
>I need your experience and insight before I can make the right choice.
>My 4Runner is my daily driver, but we frequent some of the tough
>trails around Moab, Utah.
I had at one time a Lockrite in my front diff. It worked great. A friend in
our local club had dual Lockrights in his 82 mini truck, they too worked
great. One thing people dont like about them is that they are a bit noisy
especially in a rear diff application. I have since changed the Lockrite for
a Detroit locker. If your budget allows , the Detroits will never let you
down. They are more solid than the other and quieter in opperation.
Wayne Foster "FOZZY" from the Island Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:22:15 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #55
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Juha Sarimaa wrote:
"Whats Next?
* Bigger tyres, want 33's
* Front diff lock
Question? Here in Australia a LockRight for Toy
pickup cost about $1000 Aus unfitted, what do
they cost in the US, where can I order one from
and is this a good idea?"
According to John Barron (LandCruiser list), LockRights are not designed
for tires much larger than 31's. If you ask him, they're fairly useless
with 32" or over tires. When it came time for me to lock up my diffs, I had
been leaning toward what I currently have (see sig), but John convinced me.
I have not regretted it one bit. Also, $1000 AUS is WAY too much money for
a LockRight. Here they run about $270 US. My advice would be to go Detroit
TrueTrac ($370 US) or ARB AirLocker front. I stayed away from ARB's because
I didn't want a compressor and the attendant air lines running around. In
my experience, the more parts, the more things to break. Maybe someone else
on the list can offer up some advice as well.
Today, $100.00 AUS = $75.30 US.
4Wheel Parts in Gardena, CA, USA has a website:
http://4wheelparts.com/4wheel. I've found they have very competitive
prices, and shipping to Oz should not be horribly expensive.
Good luck,
- Nick
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 13:36:19 -0600
From: 4RUNNER4X4 <4RUNNER4X4@prodigy.net>
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #58 LOCK RIGHT NO GO WIHT 33'S
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> ------------------------------
--------------
CHUCK SCHLADENHAUFFEN
I've used LOCKRIGHT on my 85 4RUNNER FOR ABOUT 4 YEARS NOW.
with 33 x 12.20 on 15 x 10 rims and 4.88 gears and they have
never fail me. they just work great. on and off road.
------------------------------
- ----
- ---- I put in a pair of lockrites into my 86 4-runner drove it almost
30k and then sold it. I loved my lockrites ! I never had a bit of
trouble with them or the factory carriers. They were connected to
31x13.5 SS/sx's and 4.56 gears ( the 31's with wheels weighed close to
75 lbs). The lockrite is a good product for medium duty off roading. I
agree that a detroit is a better choice for streingth and durability
reasons but is usualy twice as much and instalation may require
re-seting the pinion spacing.
Eric
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:08:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Mark Byron Carter
Subject: Superbrute posi question
To: Toyota 4x4 list
Does anybody have experience with this positrac unit in the front or rear
of their toy? I have a 93 xtra cab w/ v6 that is my only vehicle so i'm
not sure about putting a detroit locker in the rear-i know they handle
great off road, but i put lots of miles on my truck around town and on
the highway also. I'm particulary interested in what people with a
similar truck might have in theirs for everyday use. I know detroits are
the best offroad-but what is the best all around traction device for on and
off road trucks. My truck is stock and will stay that way (basically).
I've got 31x10.5 w/ 4.56 gears and manual hubs up front. ps does anyone
have experience w/ a true-trac in the front diff and how it handles w/
the hubs locked on paved roads(icy or slick)? I drive in snow and ice on
road and whatever i can get through off road, too.
thanks,
Mark B. Carter
mcarter@unm.edu
------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 97 12:11:12 PST
From: Norman.Goetz@directory.Reed.EDU (Norman Goetz)
Subject: Superbrute posi question
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
- --- You wrote:
Does anybody have experience with this positrac unit in the front or rear
of their toy?
- --- end of quoted material ---
I have a Mitsubshi PU 4X2 with a Gleason Torsen (in the rear) which is
mechanically the same as the TrueTrac. It is recommended for front use, unlike
the Detroit Locker. I think it is superior technology, in that it is always
"engaged" and makes a smooth transition from allowing differential action for
cornering on pavement to shifting torque to the traction wheel in slippery
conditions. This is important for steering control in the front axle, where
lockers' sudden locking action can take control away. Also they don't wear out
and don't require special additives in the lube like clutch type units. On the
other hand, I've considered putting a clutch type in front since it is mostly
not turning, so likely to last the lifetime of the truck in typical North
American usage.
Norman
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:21:01 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Superbrute posi question
WJ Markerink has an excellent website on all the ins and outs of various diffs
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/main_4x4.htm
is a good place to start.
While in principle the Gleason and the TruTrac are the same - in many ways they
are NOT.
However - they all belong to the same class of differentials - torque
proportioning diffs.
Also in the class are
Quaiffe
AFCO (new in Circle Track)
Gleason Torsen (OEM only at this time)
Dyneer TruTrac
Yes - they are in gneral - good diffs; BUT they do NOT lock up 100% like a
Detroit or an ARB (or Wiesimann) will. Thus if you get one wheel in the
air - unless you use the handbrake, you are "stuck".
However - on the plus side
no clutches to wear out
even loading (vs. on/off of the Detroit or ARB)
EWong
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:55:47 -0800
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: Superbrute posi question
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
>but i put lots of miles on my truck around town and on
>the highway also. I'm particulary interested in what people with a
>similar truck might have in theirs for everyday use.
I'm open in the front, but use a TRD posi in the back, and i love it.
Can't tell its there when in normal driving, and it took me over the
Rubicon, Barrett, and Dusy trails without getting stuck. It uses metal
clutches, so it should outlast the truck, and I run regular gear oil
for maximum traction. My rig is also my daily driver.
##################################################################
Rick Murray 84 Toyota 4Runner SR5
( rmurray@gvn.net ) stock 22R motor ; 3" ProComp Lift
Rancho Cordova, Ca. 8" steel rims; 33" BFG M/Ts
www.gvn.net/~rmurray/ 4.88 gears; Marlin TCase #67 ; TRD LSD
##################################################################
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:54:16 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: true-trac in the front diff
To: " - (052)Toy4x4 (a) tlca.org" ,
TLC:
Unfortunately, various work items have cause me to put off the 4.56/TrueTrac
project until the spring - its a daily driver so I cant really afford down time.
Im awaiting Jack Alfords front axle, and looking at a rear axle so I can do the
swapover at my own pace (and have yet MORE spare parts at my parents garage).
[yup - more dollars than sense]
Anyway - with resepct to the truetrac up front
If its not being driven (ie hubs unlocked or hubs locked but still in 2WD) it
should act like an open diff. In fact - all torque sensing diffs act like an
open diff in some ways (such as 1 wheel in the air, or equal traction on both
wheels)
There is an inherent advantage to a torque sensing diff on road in sno/ice -
its benign activation.
An open diff drives the wheel with the least traction - thus on ice, the wheel
tends to "spin" leaving you stuck.
A locker is normally "locked" unless there is a speed difference and the
torque inputs are "low" - then the dog clutches disengage and the wheels
spin at different speeds.
If ice is encountered while negoating a turn, then the dog clutches may
"lock" - and the rear acts like a spool. This on/off nature may surprise
certian drivers and cause sudden fish tails or "end swaps". It is this
unpredictable lockup nature that is IMHO the major reason for branding
Detroit lockers as "dangerous" for on-road sno/ice use. Its not
inherently dangerous - but it DOES require a change in driving technique
compared to an open diff!
A clutch limited slip does almost the same thing, but the lockup is set by
design (aka amount of clutch friction available). The same issues apply
as with the Detroit, but the action is more gradual than the dog gear
engagement.
Torque sensing diffs by nature work differently - they "magically" apply
the max torque to each wheel that can be born by the surface it is on!
Thus if one wheel is on pavement and the other is on polished ice
with standing water - you are just as stuck as you would be with
an open (except forthe brake trick escape).
This "open" nature at the low end of traction makes driving the truck easier
in terms of behavior modification - the rear end will never "lock". Instead
it acts like an open diff.
Once this occurs - you will slow down (lost traction) as you should anyway
given the ice on the roads. Feed the throttle back in - slowly and
you will get whatever traction is available.
It helps to run studded Nokia Hakkapleittiias too :)
EWong
Wishing at times I was a Finn:)
They have such cool names...
---------------------------
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 14:55:01 -0600
From: Steven Benson
Subject: Problem with Detroit Soft-Locker
To: Offroad@off-road.com
Does anyone know why a Detroit Soft-Locker would 'bang' when letting the
clutch out? It's as if the mechanism that was added to make the
Soft-Locker soft has worn out and now there is access backlash in the
locker.
If any of you in the know have an idea of what may be the cause of this
problem please let me know so I can fix the problem. It's as if I were
running a dual-friction clutch, no smooth transition into gear, but I'm
not. The only change has been switching the 3rd member with the
installed 'Bang-Locker' from one truck to the other. Also, I noticed
accessive metal shaving's , very fine but alot, in the fluid when doing
the switch?? Is there a mechanism within the new design soft-locker
which may need to be rebuilt or replaced?
Please help.
______________________________________________
Steven Benson
'85 Toy X-Cab | MNTOYX4 | MN4WDA | TLCA #4835
http://www.off-road.com/~MNTOYX4
mailto:toyx4@winternet.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:10:35 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Problem with Detroit Soft-Locker
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Steven Benson wrote:
"Does anyone know why a Detroit Soft-Locker
would 'bang' when letting the clutch out?
It's as if the mechanism that was added to
make the Soft-Locker soft has worn out and
now there is access backlash in the locker."
Mine has done it since new, 29,000 miles now, no problems yet. The closest
thing I can surmise is that the springs that preload the ratchet are not
engaged fully when you've stopped, either because you were turning a corner
(however slight), or something below.
I would make sure my rear tire sizes and inflations are as closes as
possible; if they are off as little as 1/4" then the rear will lock and
unlock constantly to compensate for different rotation distances. Change
your gear oil; use either a good synthetic or something racers use (I use
SWEPCO 210 80/140). Make sure your U-joints are up to the task. The bang
might also be axle wrap-up (although that's usually more like a 'clunk').
Take 2 aspirin and call me in the morning.
Seriously, it's probably one of these. I have never heard of a Locker going
out.
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:04:47 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: problem with detroit soft locker
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
As far as I know the Detroit Soft Locker and the Powertrax
Lock-Right are basically the same. I bought the Lock Right (back when
they were the LA locker) back then they were made of a substandard
material. I finally started having problems with one of my lockers.
The problem is that they start to "ratchet" a little then continue to
get worse. Before I replaced them my front locker was "ratcheting"
about every ten feet. Do to wear and the soft material. I talked to
the people at powertrax and they were suprised that I had so many miles
on the old locker (LA locker). I replaced them with the updated
Lock-Right so we will see what happends.
The noise you hear is probably normal. Every once in a while (even
being new) my lockers will "bang" when giving it throttle. If your
locker is starting to "ratchet" because of force and you give it
throttle it will bang when it hits the next tooth. If it start to
happen while driving down a straight road and your tire pressure is
normal call Detroit and ask them.
If it has high milage you can actually remove the locker and rotate the
left and right side gears. This will allow each side to use the front
of the teeth that is used in reverse so they should still be fairly
sharp.
Hope this helps.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 22:41:58 -0600 (CST)
From: gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg S. Francis)
Subject: Locker clang
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I have been reading posts about locker clang and pinion bearing runout
clang and now I'm concerned. I recently installed a Detroit Sof-locker and
4.88s in my rear diff. A new pinion bearing was used. When I am stopped
and begin to accelerate, the drive line winds up about a half-turn before
the wheels engage. The Detroit manual states that the locker will have
some slop. To other Sof-locker owners: is my condition normal or do I need
to reexamine the instalation? Thanks for any help.
- -Greg
Greg S. Francis
University of Texas @ Austin
School of Architecture
gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:35:45 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Locker clang
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Greg Francis wrote:
"I recently installed a Detroit Sof-locker and
4.88s in my rear diff. A new pinion bearing was
used. When I am stopped and begin to accelerate,
the drive line winds up about a half-turn before
the wheels engage. The Detroit manual states
that the locker will have some slop. To other
Sof-locker owners: is my condition normal or do
I need to reexamine the instalation?"
I think you're all right. Mine was giving me hellacious axle wrap an
instant after a let out the clutch, but now that I've got my torque rod in
there, I just get lots of wheelspin (on the streets). Imagine, a 16 year
old 22R that can do a burner!
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 06:57:20 -0800
From: Scott Muir
Subject: Truetrac limited slip differentials
To: "'Toy List'"
Sterling,
This is a battle that is sitting in the LandCruiser Archives.
http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toy4x4/toy4x4_digest.html
Or something like that, I don't know it has changed.
Firstly, I don't have one yet, but I think I am foolishly going to track
down an ARB or 2 because "they're neat". Its also its a bit of
procrastination because I could afford something cheaper at the moment.
Anyroad, a friend has a LockRite now. It is quite surprising how well
it handles on the street. (what with all the hype and all)
I think a lot depends on how you drive though.
He has an FJ-40 (stock engine) and 32" M/T BFG's, so he's FORCED to drive
conservatively anyway. If you (could) leadfoot it, I think it wouldn't be
so street friendly. An no, we haven't tried it out in snow yet, which seems
to be the worst of the hype.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:17:38 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Truetrac limited slip differentials
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Sterling Rorden wrote:
"...I substituted another Truetrac for the
Detroit Locker since I am concerned about
the streetability of this vehicle (I
sometimes drive it in the snow and my wife
will drive it in the rain)...How bad is a
locker in the snow or rain? Will the Truetrac
hold up to moderate 4 wheeling? If one wheel
is in the air while crawling will the Truetrac
still apply torque to the other wheel?"
People make out full lockers to be some sort of evil handling demon that
will throw your truck off a cliff at the first opportunity. I've had mine
in for about 30,000 miles now, and other than an occasional "Ka-POW!" sound
(usually while backing up) and increased axle wrap before I put on the
torque bar (now slight wheelslip - mini burner - on polished concrete or
slick asphalt at low speeds), the thing is transparent. I wouldn't even
know it was there, except I almost never use 4 wheel now. It's been to
Tahoe, Oregon, Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, etc., and no problems, nothing
unusual. So full lockers are not the Devil's own street-handling device in
my case.
But when you say, "moderate 4 wheeling," methinks you probably did the
right thing. My better half drives mine all the time (my mom, too,
sometimes) and there's no problem. Of course, Teri has her SCCA license,
and has taken a bunch of race driving schools, but still...
Your TrueTracs are probably the best bet for the kind of driving you say
you do. I know that in Sacto nothing's close; you need to drive wherever
you go. I would imagine that the LSD is probably the most correct answer to
your needs.
The TrueTrac is like any other LSD, except it uses a gear drive instead of
a clutch (similar to a Gleason Torsen). I've got one in the front and like
it, but as I said before, it's not really all that necessary with the
Locker in the rear (maybe if I did more of Jay's and Jack's kind of
wheeling...). I predict that you will be very happy with your setup in the
future.
Now somebody contradict me, please. We must have more opinions on this.
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:22:03 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Detroit Locker
To: Toy 4x4 List , Ryan Comber
Alright! I just picked up my 4Runner from "Rearend Specialties." I had
the Locker installed this morning.
I've only driven it about 15 miles so far (back to work from their
shop). So far I notice the little bit of 'slop' in the driveline
everyone's been talking about. It's not much, just enough to give you a
little bump if you gave it a lot of gas taking off from a stop. (like I
usually do).
The most obvious change I've experience so far, is the trucks desire to
go straight. It's only noticable under 30mph for me. Just takes a bit
more effort on the steering wheel to get it to do what you want. I can
also hear the rear tires biting into the road as I make tight turns.
(Makes me think I'll be wearing these All terrains out sooner than I
thought, Yea!)
The truck behaves exactly the same as if had the open diff. at speeds
above 30mph. I may take an afternoon off this week and try it off road,
we'll see. :)
Scott
- --
*****************************************************
Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
88 4Runner SR5 V6
Santa Clara, CA
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 13:25:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: detroit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> This question is kinda aimed at Scott, (since he just got the Detroit) but
> I'd appreciate other's responces too.
>
> One thing I'm wondering about is how much the slop/ratcheting action in a
> detroit locker effects general driving with a *manual* transmission. Do
> you really notice the extra backlash when shifting. Like say you gas it
> and then let off, does it kinda free-wheel for a second then go 'clunk'?
>
> Some other questions. Ok, imagine you are driving in the following
On a previous truck (87 Samy) I had lock-rights front and rear and every
time I let off the gas (like every shift) the rear of the truck would
shift to the right and when I got back on the gas it would shift back to
the left. Do you notice this or is the Samy just too lite?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 13:57:53 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: detroit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
First off, some who knows, please correct me if I'm wrong. A lot of
this is my best guesses as to what is happening, I've only been driving
on a detroit for two full days now. SW
Jonathan Albrecht wrote:
> One thing I'm wondering about is how much the slop/ratcheting action in a
> detroit locker effects general driving with a *manual* transmission. Do
> you really notice the extra backlash when shifting. Like say you gas it
> and then let off, does it kinda free-wheel for a second then go 'clunk'?
No. The only I do notice a difference when your on the gas and then
suddenly let off (no clutch). You now that you're gonna get a bump not
matter what diff you have. I notice the bump is just a little (I do
mean little) harder due to the 1/4 turn of slop in the driveshaft.
> Let's say you start from a stop and immediatly turn (like from a 4 way
> stop and you want to go right). Let's say your in a hurry, and you really
> gas it off the line and around the corner. What happens?
In fact I asked someone this same question yesterday 'cause I wasn't
sure if mine was behaving normal. I'm a lead foot, but since I got the
locker I've been driving what I consider light while I get used to it.
When I do what you described, my inside wheel slips (probably would if I
had the open diff too), the outside wheel ends up with all the traction,
and sorta drags the inside wheel along. (Sounds like I'm peeling out,
but the wheel is barely going slower than the other)
The answer is that I'm gasing it too much. I need to let off the
throtle and retain traction on the inside wheel.
or
if you don't care about a little bit of noise, stomp on it! The rear
will lock up and you'll be off! There's gonna be a little noise off the
tires as they make the turn at the same speed, but so what. ;) But if
your in a situation that you don't what to make any noise and draw
attention (i.e. police car sitting behind you) you're just gonna have
to take off extra slow.
>
> Next, let's say you approach a 90 degree turn off at 30mph or so, and
> quick downshift into 2nd, and swing around the corner fast/hard. What's
> it do? (I know, I know, this isn't real safe, but sometimes I like to do
> that).
Been there. Done that. Behaves pretty normal. All depends on if the
locker is locked up in the turn or not. If it is, its not like your
gonna crash or anything (well, don't quote me on that, I don't know how
you drive :) ) You're gonna get some tire noise again though cause the
tires are turning around a turn both going the same speed.
> Let's say your are downtown, and trying toparrallel parking on a steep
> hill. Is it any worse than usual? (like it's not hard enough already!)
Should be pretty normal.
>
> If you are trying to accelerate fast on a sharp turning, steep on-ramp,
> how does it react?
This is kinda the same deal as taking off from the stop sign. If you
loose traction on that inside wheel it gonna lock up on you. Then
- -suddenly- the outside wheel is driving. This is why some people
consider lockers dangerous on slick roads. If you got a sudden change
like this on a slick road it could cause you to fish tail.
Lockers aren't dangerous because of this. You just need to realize
you're driving on slick roads with a locker, and need to drive
appropriately. If you're being gentle with the throtle, and not
purposely giving your rear end a chance to slip out from behind you,
then your chances of slipping out are the same as if you were driving
with an open diff.
I've gotta say though, I'm REALLY impressed with the traction I get from
this thing. I took it to a hill last night that I've always had to be
in 4WD to get over, and usually still have some slipping. Well last
night (now that I've got the locker) I tried it in 2WD. Crawled right
over, didn't slip a bit. That got me really excited! I hadn't planned
to take it anywhere this week, but since last night I've just had a bug
to go try it out some more. I'm taking tomorrow afternoon off and
heading to Hollister Hills. Anyone what to go? I'll be there from
about 12:30-sunset.
Hope this answered your questions,
Scott
- --
*****************************************************
Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
88 4Runner SR5 V6
Santa Clara, CA
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:18:56 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: detroit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> On a previous truck (87 Samy) I had lock-rights front and rear and every
> time I let off the gas (like every shift) the rear of the truck would
> shift to the right and when I got back on the gas it would shift back to
> the left. Do you notice this or is the Samy just too lite?
I do notice my 4Runner pulls to the left just a bit when I'm on the
gas. I thought is was my tires (I rotated them the same day as I got
the detroit in). It's not bad though. Maybe the extra weight help me.
Scott
- --
*****************************************************
Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
88 4Runner SR5 V6
Santa Clara, CA
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 22:58:05 -0600 (CST)
From: gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg S. Francis)
Subject: detroit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I have a Detroit Soflocker in my rear diff, so I'll take a crack at a
couple of your questions.
>Some other questions. Ok, imagine you are driving in the following
>situations with a locker/manual tranny. What happens/what's the truck do
>differently:
>
>Let's say you start from a stop and immediatly turn (like from a 4 way
>stop and you want to go right). Let's say your in a hurry, and you really
>gas it off the line and around the corner. What happens?
Inside wheel get all the power and chirps around the corner.
>
>Next, let's say you approach a 90 degree turn off at 30mph or so, and
>quick downshift into 2nd, and swing around the corner fast/hard. What's
>it do? (I know, I know, this isn't real safe, but sometimes I like to do
>that).
If you downshift *before* the corner, probably nothing. If you downshift
*in* the turn, it (locker) will open when you clutch it and reingage
(clunk) when you let out the clutch.
>
>Let's say your are downtown, and trying toparrallel parking on a steep
>hill. Is it any worse than usual? (like it's not hard enough already!)
Not really, the only time it affects this sort of situation is when you
change the direction of your turn while still under power. Torque is what
causes the locker to engage.
>
>If you are trying to accelerate fast on a sharp turning, steep on-ramp,
>how does it react?
Same chirping of the inside tire, should be no loss of control.
Overall, once I got used to mine, I found it to be easy to control. The
principle here is outlined in the manual- adding power while the wheels are
spinning at different rates will cause the locker to engage. You can
actually make an easy turn without adding power (accelerating) and the
locker will behave like an open diff. I was concerned about the effects of
the locker on wet roads, but once I learned to drive w/ it, I found it
presents no problem at all.
Disclaimer- If you do not take above advice, it can bite you in the a$$.
It will spin you off a wet road if you don't respect it.
Hope this helps, and remember this applies to a Soflocker, I hear the older
ones are mor vicious.
- -Greg
Greg S. Francis
University of Texas @ Austin
School of Architecture
gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 23:51:39 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Taco and Detoit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> >p.s. Scott Wilson how is your setup fairing??
> >
> >
I absolutely LOVE it. I took Friday afternoon off went to Hollister
Hills, CA. I had a wonderful time. It was my first chance to visit
Hollister, and I -will- be back. I do have some pictures, they came out
pretty good. I'll scan them in this week and make them availible to all
who want to see them.
I had a chance to make a Cherokee look really silly on one of the
steeper trails with the Detroit. With the locker my 4Runner was to the
top w/o batting an eye, I honestly wasn't sure if the guy in the
Cherokee was going to live through his attempt. He made it near the top
and lost his footing...slid backward about 300ft! Luckily he kept it
sliding straight back and didn't loose it. He did make it on his second
attempt.
Enough babeling, I'll see if I can't do a write-up and stick it on the
web soon. (Maybe by the end of the week).
Anyway, after seeing what the 4Runner is capable of off-road w/the
Detroit I'm more than willing to put up with the thunks and clunks, and
the occasional squeely wheel around a corner. (even though I mostly
drive pavement).
Scott
- --
Scott A. Wilson __o __o __o __o
Santa Clara, CA _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_
swilson@pacbell.net (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_)
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 10:02:19 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Subject: detroit
To: albr9619@uidaho.edu
I have a detrioit in my truck for the last 2 years, so I'll add my $.02 worth
>>>
detroit locker effects general driving with a *manual* transmission. you
really notice the extra backlash when shifting. Like say you gas it
and then let off, does it kinda free-wheel for a second then go 'clunk'?
<<<
Never noticed the backlash when shifting 95% of the time. Once in a while
it does go clunk, but the freewheeling is only momentary, not seconds....
>>>Some other questions. Ok, imagine you are driving in the following
situations with a locker/manual tranny. What happens/what's the truck do
Let's say you start from a stop and immediatly turn (like from a 4 way
stop and you want to go right). Let's say your in a hurry, and you really
gas it off the line and around the corner. What happens?
<<<<<
When a fair throttle was applied, the inside tire breaks loose, and slips
a little. Not a lot of excitement, but a little noticeable, esp. on
sand/gravel... no real handling problems IMHO.
>>Next, let's say you approach a 90 degree turn off at 30mph or so, and
quick downshift into 2nd, and swing around the corner fast/hard. What's
it do?
and...
If you are trying to accelerate fast on a sharp turning, steep on-ramp,
how does it react?
<<<<
If you're out to cause a rear slide, give 'er a lot of throttle and this
would do it... Without the throttle input, you should be as ok as you would
be without a locker.
>>>
Let's say your are downtown, and trying toparrallel parking on a steep
hill. Is it any worse than usual? (like it's not hard enough already!)
<<<
NO change....
The biggest change is in winter driving on a real slick, off-camber
situations... the locker tends to spin BOTH wheels (DUH!), and the
rear slides out from under you. Other than that, I love mine - even
with the occasional clicking / tire hop on a tight turn.
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:15:25 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: detroit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Jonathan Albrecht wrote:
"...how much the slop/ratcheting action in a
detroit locker effects general driving with
a *manual* transmission. Do you really notice
the extra backlash when shifting. Like say you
gas it and then let off, does it kinda
free-wheel for a second then go 'clunk'?"
No.
"...imagine you are driving in the following
situations with a locker/manual tranny. What
happens/what's the truck do differently:
"Let's say you start from a stop and immediatly
turn (like from a 4 way stop and you want to go
right). Let's say your in a hurry, and you really
gas it off the line and around the corner. What
happens?"
Either a little tire spin or wheelhop.
"...let's say you approach a 90 degree turn off
at 30mph or so, and quick downshift into 2nd,
and swing around the corner fast/hard. What's
it do?"
Nothing out of the ordinary. With proper gearing, though, 2nd is a little
tall to be downshifting into at 30.
"...(you) are downtown, and trying to
parrallel parking on a steep hill. Is it any
worse than usual?"
No.
"If you are trying to accelerate fast on a
sharp turning, steep on-ramp, how does it react?"
Just a lot of traction; more wheelbite than before.
Listen, the thing is a lot more transparent than the magazines and other
people would lead you to believe. The biggest difference is off-road, where
you don't really need your front axle except for stuck and almost-stuck
situations. Also, off-road, you notice your rear tires dragging around on
the dirt, because there's not enough friction to unlock the rear.
I like it.
- Nick
_____________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:02:53 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: TruTrac or Detroit Locker
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Chris Geiger wrote:
"In the next two weeks I plan on installing
4:88 gears and lockers front and rear. I
plan to use the TruTrac up front but as
still unsure about the rear. If you have a
Detroit locker in the rear, are you happy?"
Yep.
Bad things about a locker:
- accelerated tire wear
- accelerated u-joint wear
I wouldn't recommend a Locker for cruisin' the streets of IV, but if you do
some meaningful wheeling, then my answer to you would be, "Go for it, my
friend."
- Nick
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: TruTrac or Detroit Locker
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Rosenberger Bud wrote:
> How about just putting a locker in the front axle to eliminate the wear
> issues but still have the locker benefits in 4wd? I have no experience
> with them but I'm all ears on this subject. Bud
That depends upon how often you use 4wd. At home, I probably keep the
hubs locked 7 months out of the year, and I'm in 4wd in about 4 or 5 of
those. A front locker is a bit harder to live with than a rear one (when
in 4wd), and the steering knuckle cv things (birfields) are somewhat of a
week point (or so I've heard).
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:01:33 -0700
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: TRD LSD
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
>Would you recommend this for the front of my IFS truck? I want some kind of
>locker, but not a "full" locker. I still want to be able to use 4WD in the
>ice and snow ( maybe 5 times a year). Any suggestions?
My buddy has the unit in both axles (89 IFS longbed). He really likes it.
I'm open in front, and I can go everywhere he goes. I'm not convinced
that a locker or posi in front is worth the expense. Going up hill, most
of the work is done by the back tires. Going downhill, you don't need
traction, just gearing. He does do better than me in and snow, however.
I'm not sure how it adversely affects steering, probably less than with
a locker.
A part-time locker would be nice for the front, like the electric one we've
been hearing about for so long, that is still not on the market.
I won't make a suggestion here. Its a matter of personal preference.
Another consideration is whether a wife, girl-friend, or in my case, daughter
is going to be driving it. Every time a Detroit BANGs, they'll think they
broke something. The understeering and chirping tires can be un-nerving.
------------------------------
Date: 21 Apr 1997 11:05:10 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: LSD
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 10:40 AM
OFFICE MEMO LSD Date: 4/21/97
James Brink wrote:
>What is the general opinion of the True-Trac, Downey LSD, TRD LSD (if
>its not the same as the LockRight)?
The Downey LSD is a Toshiki-Fuji metallic clutch unit. I think the TRD
unit is the same. I've run mine in the rear of my truck for about 140k miles
and can still chirp the tires cornering if I'm on the throttle. I've been
very pleased with its perfomance.
If I were starting from scratch though, I would probably buy another
ARB for the rear.
I run it with hypoid slip dif fluid and about 1/3 bottle of GM LSD fluid.
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 17:40:38 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: New TRD locker?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Eric Johnson wrote:
>
> Toyota Racing Development is advertising:
>
> "LOCKING DIFFERENTIAL
> For Compact Truck, 4Runner, Land Cruiser
>
> TRD's automatic "positive-locking" rear differential gives you the most
> traction possible while providing the turning ease of vehicles with
> standard differentials. And because they're fully automatic, you can drive
> on-road or off-road without the noisy, harsh operation of other "lockers."
> Precision machining and high strength steel make them rugged and
> dependable. And installation is easy. No set up, special tools or
> calibration is required because the ring and pinion gears are unaffected."
>
> Is this something new or are they just repackaging a lock-rite?
>
> --
> -- ej@blarg.net
It is a LockRight. They don't even take it out of the LockRight box!
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 20:48:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: differentials
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> I have read several messages about differentials, ARB's, lockers, etc.
> Could any explane to me what the basic defference are. I know what
> semi- positive, positive trac and limited slip are.
An open diff uses spider gears.
And arb is like an open diff (uses spiders even), except for when you
lock it, when it turns into a fully locked spool (both wheels must turn
at the same speed regardless). It uses compressed air to lock it
A locker (like Detroit or Lockright) uses a ratchet mechanism. Because
of this, both wheels get 100% of the power, but when you go around a
corner, the outer wheel is allowed to freewheel (due to the ratchet
mechanism). The Detroit softlocker replaces the entire carrier (this is
the strongest design) and is said to have better manners on road. The
Detroit EZ locker and Lockright (AKA LA locker) replaces the gears
inside your stock carrier, and isn't as strong. The EZ locker is a copy
of the lockright design (virtually identical).
A limited slip allows for a certain amount of the power to go to both
wheels (100% to one wheel, and depending upon the design, less to the
other), while still allowing for the inside tire to go slower around
corners. Depending upon the style and type, they allow anywhere from a
little bit of slip to a whole bunch. One friend had one on his CJ that
was so tight that it made the tires chirp around corners. The two most
popular types are ones that use clutches (like auburn) and ones that use
worm gears and stuff (like Detroit True Track). I've heard the true
track works great, but they aren't necessarily as strong as a clutch
unit. The big difference, is the clutch units use clutches, which can
wear out, where as the worm gear types use gears and stuff, which don't
wear out, but I guess could break. I've heard that they are only
designed for 31-33" tall tires (max).
Standard disclaimer: I've only had personal experience with the detroit
(limited expirience), and stock posi's like what came on older chevy's,
so to the best of my knowledge, what I've said is right, but I could be
wrong! (let me know if I am though)
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:52:14 -0500
From: Chris Caldwell
Subject: LockRights
To: 4x4 digest
I have seen several posts on LockRights, but I don't remember any of
them addressing the noise that they generate. Today, I was checking
around to find someone to do the install and one of the mechanics warned
me of the constant and obvious clatter made when cornering. He even told
me of a customer that had his removed due to the noise. He did mention
that this was 1.5 years ago and didn't know if this was still an issue.
My Tacoma is a daily driver so I am concerned whether or not this is
really an issue or not. I do graciously appreciate any opinions on this.
Chris Caldwell
caldwell@vol.com
(95.5 Tacoma Xcab 4x4 V6, TJM Bullbar, K&N, soon a Lock-right)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:19:49 +1000
From: Juha Sarimaa
Subject: LockRight
To: Jack Alford
Chris,
LockRights do make a bit of noise when cornering, its most audible at low
speeds with your windows open. What's really going to bother you is that
solid "bang" you get out of them every now and again. If your that worried
about it find someone that's got one (prehaps one that's for sale ?) and take
their vehicle for a spin. IMHO you get what you pay for, that said I like
mine and am after another for the front.
Juha.
Juhapekka.Sarimaa@Health.gov.au
'85 Hilux, Rear LockRight....
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:15:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gsxrcpl@aol.com
Subject: lock right
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Before I had my shell, I could hardly hear any ratcheting. Only
when turning close to a wall,(like in an apt. complex) Now w/shell the rear
sound tends to echo a bit more. However, every so often the teeth on the
locker don't seat when a turn,gas, slow,stop,weird,combo happens. You
proceed to accelerate, the locker is forced to close, but the teeth are still
not seated together. About 30yards later the locker shifts 2-3mm and all of
a sudden, your locker seats. Well this makes your whole drivetrain skip
about 1/4 a tire rotation and makes a really loud CLUNK. scares you the
first couple times, hey it has not happened to me in a long time, great now
that I said it!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyway after it happens pull your seatcover out
of your butt and enjoy your locker, I called powertrax on this issue and
they said, "Ah, I'ts normal" and explained every thing. c-ya
81 4x longbed:325/60/15 mud t's,488 gears,lockrights frt & rr, 3" downey
springs,bilsteins, and the list goes on. any questions? gsxrcpl@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: 27 May 1997 09:35:39 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Lincoln lockers
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:10 AM
OFFICE MEMO Lincoln lockers Date: 5/27/97
matt877@juno.com (Matthew C Chapin) wrote:
>Here is something I was thinking about I know it is probably not an idea
>that would work but I will toss it out anyway---- If you had welded
>spiders in the rear couldn't you swap in locking hubs in the rear and
>lock only one?
I have seen this done on several J**ps. However, since the Toyota axles
are not full-floating, you cannot put a locking hub on a rear axle......unless
maybe it's a 1 ton full-floater.........
>This seems to me that you would have one drive wheel
(>which you only have one anyway w/ the standard rear diff.) and when a
>locker was needed(off road) you could lock the other essentially giving
>you a locked rear axle.
With an open axle both axles may drive the tires or only one may drive,
or some combination of the two. With the welded spiders and one axle
locked, that one axle will always bear the full torque of from the
driveline.
>Now while I was writing this I realized (I think)
>that the wheel that was locked would still chirp around turns but the
>other would freewheel like normal.
With only one axle locked there would be no chirping.
Interesting thoughts Matthew.........
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: 27 May 1997 09:37:07 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: lincoln lockers
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:11 AM
OFFICE MEMO lincoln lockers Date: 5/27/97
Juha Sarimaa wrote:
>Why can't you leave one hub unlocked until you hit a really rough spot and
>then get out and lock the other ?
This will work, you just have to be careful not to send to much torque
to that one locked axle.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: 27 May 1997 09:24:03 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: lincoln lockers
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:06 AM
OFFICE MEMO lincoln lockers Date: 5/27/97
loki@crestedbutte.net wrote:
>howdy folks, my local junkyard has 85 4runner w/ 4.3:1 diffs. I was
>think that I could pull off a real low budget mod by just swapping both
>axles or 3rd members,and doing a little welding to the front
>spidergears. I could leave the rears open till I can afford an
>ez-locker. It seems like the licoln locker would perform like an arb,
>only instead of flipping a switch you get out and lock/unlock the hubs.
This can be done, but you will have to unlock to steer. Nickel content
welding rod may be a good idea as the gear carrier is cast iron.
>When you guys with arbs go wheelin are you consantly unlocking or do you
>leave them engaged for the hole trail ride?
I lock in to complete an obstacle and then unlock once I'm over.
There are also times I cannot use my ARB much on an obstacle
if I'm crawling in a really tight wash.
>also, does an axle and diff
>suffer any damage while its sitting in a junkyard? i think the only
>inspection i can make is for metal shavings on the drain plugs. thinks
>for any comments on
Check for water in the oil. Also, in areas where humidity is high,
the part of the ring gear that has sat so long above the oil level
may be badly rusted.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: 09 Jun 97 17:05:03 PDT
From: Norman.Goetz@directory.Reed.EDU (Norman Goetz)
Subject: differentials
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
- --- You wrote:
I don't see myself doing anything
remotely radical or scary, so I'm not looking into a situation where I have
several wheels in the air. So what I'm looking for is something that
drives well on the road (this car spends 85% of the time on the road) and
kicks in when I need a little extra traction.
I've heard differing opinions on Limited Slip Diffs in the rain and snow.
I've heard someone say that they are extremely dangerous in four wheel
drive. I've heard they are useless in the snow. I've heard that they are
great in the snow, even better than a locker.
- --- end of quoted material ---
I have a Gleason-Torsen (not in a Toyota) which is mechanically the same as
a True-Trac. In snow (a few inches and up) I think it's about the same.
At the moment of max torque transfer the locker will spin both wheels on
the axle at the same RPM, while the LS will spin the low-traction wheel
at a faster rate. Not clear to me if either is an advantage. But on
ice the locker may break the axle free of traction, so loss of control
in corners or on the straight if the road is banked significantly toward
the shoulder. The LS may do better, by maintaining some traction on the
"slow" wheel even when the other one on the axle breaks free.
In rain, I would suspect the locker might do worse in hydroplaning because
of its sudden and jerky lockup. The LS works smoothly and gradually. But
mostly I wouldn't expect much difference.
In general, some people dislike the road manners of the lockers but the
latest models have reduced some of the problems. The LS is smooth and
you'll never know it's there until you lose traction.
Norman
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 19:34:05 -0600
From: loki@crestedbutte.net
Subject: lockers. . .
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Kent Seegmiller wrote:
>
> I have an '89 Toy pickup and looking to put some lockers in the rear.
> I have been looking at Lock-rights and ARB air lockers. Any
> info/horror stories would be appreciated.
>
> thanks Kent Seegmiller
Kent, I just put an Ez locker in my 85 4runner. I'm told that its a
perfect match for a lockright. I can give you a neewbies review of it.
On road hasn't been as annoying as I expected. On sharp low speed turns
its most noticeable. I have heard the bang only a few times and not as
loud as I expected. I noticed a faint squeek when rounding larger
corners at 40mph. No sideaffects at 60mph that I can tell. Off road
performance improved the normal amount, less wheel hop now. I really
noticed a tendency for the rear end to slide out in offcamber spots. if
i goosed it on grass or mud or sand it was going to the side. I think
I'll get used to this and throttle carefully in offcamber places. This
winter could be interesting for me, we average 300 inches of snow here a
year. I think I'll invest in some studded tires for the winter. Hope
this helps. Rob Boyle 85 4runner
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:43:14 -0700
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: Lockers
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
> I have an '89 Toy pickup and looking to put some lockers in the rear.
> I have been looking at Lock-rights and ARB air lockers. Any
> info/horror stories would be appreciated.
>
Another option, cheaper than ARB but more expensive than Lock-Rite, is an
LSD unit from TRD. Off-highway they are great, I go everywhere the ARB
guys go, and have never broken a driveline component. On the highway,
you can hardly tell its back there (no banging, or tire chirping, or
under-steer). No switches to remember to turn off or on. No compressor
or vacuum line to plumb or worry about. I had a Detroit on my '85 pickup.
It worked great off-road, but I hated the on-highway manners (my 'truck'
is also my daily driver).
##################################################################
Rick Murray stock 22R motor ; 3" ProComp Lift
84 Toyota 4Runner SR5 33" BFG M/Ts ; 4.88 gears
Rancho Cordova, Ca. Rancho 9000's ; on-board air
http://www.gvn.net/~rmurray/ Marlin TCase #67 ; TRD LSD
##################################################################
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:14:10 -0700
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: Lock-Rite install...
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Arminder Sidhu wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am experiencing a hesitation when I engage the clutch on my 92 4R V6 just
> after I had the locker installed. It seem like it is slipping. I'm not
> that mechanically inclined, I'm wondering if this is par for the course or
> abnormal behavior for the Lock-Rite in the rear 8" V6 diff?
>
>
With your lockright you now have 100% torque to both wheels, it feels
different than 50%, that is the only difference you should see with the
locker (when you take off at a stop sign you'll notice the be lift on
one side a bit).
- --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brandon Miller email: sac78483@saclink.csus.edu
Sacramento, CA millerb@gaia.ecs.csus.edu
url: http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb/4x.html
1983 Toyota LB locked F&R, 5.29:1 gears, roll cage, etc. etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:50:24 -0700
From: Wiley Davis
Subject: Lock-Rite install...
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Scott Wilson wrote:
>
> Arminder Sidhu wrote:
> > I am experiencing a hesitation when I engage the clutch on my 92 4R V6 just
> > after I had the locker installed. It seem like it is slipping. I'm not
> > that mechanically inclined, I'm wondering if this is par for the course or
> > abnormal behavior for the Lock-Rite in the rear 8" V6 diff?
>
> I believe the Lock Rite (like my Detroit), has a quarter (maybe only an 1/8)
According to powertrax, it is 25 degrees of slop. About 1/14th of a turn.
I agree that it feels more like a bad u-joint than anything else.
- -Wiley-
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:01:48 -0700
From: EMunsen
Subject: Front locker options 4 an 8"
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I currently have a tru-trac installed in the front of my 84. My opinion
of it lowers everytime I'm off road. Considering the replacements is
tough. I want the ARB but thats pricey and at the opposite end is the
lockrite but I dont have the factory carrier so..... Has anyone seen or
heard any recent rumors about the "commando lock" from powertrax? Please
let me know via the list or direct mail your experiences with real
lockers in the front solid axles and the gear tire size you are running.
Thanks!! Eric Munsen
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:55:14 -0700
From: Sterling Rorden
Subject: Trutrac in the rear: bad idea?
To: ej@rubicon.off-road.com
I currently run Tru-tracs front and rear. I put a Tru-trac in the rear
because I didn't want to worry about poor road manners in the snow or
when my wife drives the truck in the rain.
I recently went over the Rubicon and the truck did great. Never got the
truck stuck due to one wheel turning but the other one not. Other
Toyota trucks without limited slips/lockers did not do as well.
Sterling
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:00:07 -0700
From: "...E..."
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #455
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>
> I would say forget the lift, put the money into gears and lockers. 4:88
> gears, Detroit soft locker in the rear and Tru-Track in the front. You
> will save lots of labor costs doing it all at once (will cost $1,600)
> total. With a little work you can put 32" tires on the truck without a
> lift. If you don't have something in the diffs than any lift is just for
> show. A stock truck with 31" tires and a locker in the rear will go more
> places that a lifted truck with 33" tires and open diffs.
> Go for it Tim! The lockright and the detroit will work with your new gears
> as well as the current ones the only diff is the lockright uses the existing
> carrier and the detroit replaces the carrier (the detroit is stronger)
> If you decide on the detroit you will have to re-setup the gears though.
> The lockright is a bit less hassle and you can do it yourself!
>
I agree that the traction adding devices are far more important than a
lift. My 86 4-runner had lock-rites front and rear and 31 inch a\t's. I
went everywhere. But....
the undercarrage was scrathced a little. To gain 3 inches of diff
clearance you will spend alot of money in tires\wheels, lift and
accelerated maintance. I currently have an 84 mini with a detroit in the
rear and just replaced the True-track (crap) with an ARB. Someone out
there has decided that the true-track should reside in the front of
toyotas. I think this person must have been a dealer of them. Save your
$400 and put it twards a traction adding device that works. Plus the
true-trac wont work with a 33.
No mater which locker you add the ring gear will have to be seperated
from the carrier. I dont feel that the gears will need to be set up
after adding any locker unless you change the pinion depth. The ring
gear will have to be removed with any locker installed. As long as the
ring gear is re-installed with the correct backlash you will be fine.
If you plan to add new gears later, set up of the 3rd member will be
mandatory. I wouldnt want to pay for that service twice.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:58:51 -0700
From: "Don Kinzie"
Subject: Tru-Tracs
To:
<
<
Subject: Tru-Trak
To: "Toy4x4@tlca.org"
> Plus the
> > true-trac wont work with a 33.
I have to dispute this. I have a 1990 Ex-Cab with 4:88 gears Tru-Trak
front and ARB rear. I run 33" tires off-road and the Tru-Trak works
fine. I have had not problems with it and I don't do wimp trails
(Rubicon, Sierra Terk)
The Tru-Trak came highly recommed to me by three places in
Sacramento-S&H four whee, West Coast Diff. and Four Wheel Parts
Warehouse. You are entitled to your opinion but mine sure differs from
it.
David Fritzsche
1990 V-6 Ex-Cab
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:15:32 -0400
From: "jfloen"
Subject: snow driving
To:
RE:Snow driving
I live in the land of snow,Thunderbay,Ontario,Canada.I drive in the snow 6
months a year.I have had both two wheel drives and four.My 79 dodge 2wd had
a rear lsd.never swapped ends.My 90 jeep yj has a dana track lock,never
swapped ends.My 81 toy shortbox 4x4 had detroits front and rear,never
swapped ends.In my 85 toy i will be installing a detroit locker and
truetrack combo soon(damn UPS!).Lockers are not the evil
demons people think they are!If you know how to drive you will never have
problems.Even an open diff can spin both tires and the same speed,therefore
can make you spin out.If this happens,and it will on ice locker or no
locker,all you do is put in the clutch or ease up on the throttle(but not
so much as to lock up the tires!).But never hit the brakes in a sideways
slid.Learning how to counter steer will help too.I,personaly,could not go
without at least one locker due to where i work.i know how to drive a rig
with a locker,so for me it is not scary at all.For me no locker means no
four wheeling in the winter months,you just get stuck really bad really
fast(no fun)!!For someone who is intimidated by a locking diff,get an ARB
or go open.Even a limited slip that is working properly will spin just like
a locker.No real difference on slippery pavement.I would rather just put a
detroit in and know that i'm not going to get stuck in a snowed in road or
even my driveway,and adjust my driving for the road conditions.If your
worried about wheelspin just slow down.You have to learn to adjust to the
weather because it certainly won't adjust to you!
just a couple of pennies from a northerner
DARREN FLOEN
85 toyota ext.cab
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:44:12 -0600
From: "ARTHUR RUMPF"
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #459
To:
> Plus the true-trac wont work with a 33.
Uh,
The True Trac is not warranted for use with tires bigger than 31 inches,
that doesn't mean it won't work with bigger tires. Just put one in my full
size 4X4 but don't have it running yet.
Art, 82 SR5
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 17:55:00 -0800
From: david fritzsche
Subject: Tru-TrakQuestion for your concerning the Trutrac though is would you rather
To: "Toy4x4@tlca.org"
> Question for your concerning the Trutrac though is would you rather
> have an ARB in the front (like you have in the back) rather than the
> Trutrac if you had that option available to you?
>
I would love to have an ARB up front. I have talked to Jack O'brian of
JP Eater and he was telling me that they took a Toyota front axle with
the 8' diff and cut it down and adapted to take the place of the front
IFS diff. retaining the IFS but with an 8" diff. and he put an ARB in.
Liked the sound of it until I heard the price $1500.00 to $2000.00. I
would rather put the whole solid axle up there.
I was also told that they do not know of anyone that has had problems
with a Tru-Trak and 33's
David Fritzsche
1990 V-6 Ex-Cab
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 21:47:02 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: 93 4Runner rear locker
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Rich Woest wrote:
>
> I'm planning to add a locker to my 93 V6 SR5 Runner, and am loccking for
> advice - what's the best bang for the buck unit? Is it a do-it-yourself
> possible unit? If not... a guess at $ to install too. I'm in San Jose Ca
> and have had my suspension work so far done at 4WP Wholesalers. Thanks in
> advance.
We'll there are a few on the market, and for the most part their price
seems to rank them pretty well. I think the Detroit is the most
expensive, but it also has a reputation for being bulletproof. I have
one in my rear-end in my 88 4Runner and I'm quite pleased with it.
I am however not pleased with street performance. Don't get me wrong,
it's not THAT bad or anything, I'm just not gonna be satisfied with
anything less then the street performance of a open diff. I'm also
tired of having to -warn- anyone who needs to drive my truck (the
alignment guy, the mechanic who did my clutch, etc). I'm also tired of
not being able to let people like my girlfriend drive the truck. She is
not very good at driving a stick, and adding in the "locker" factor is
enough to make not -ever- let her drive it. (Now that she's getting
better at stick I'll let her drive it in the future). I think the
Detroit would be a lot easier to deal with if your truck is an
automatic. My biggest complaint is the 1/4 turn of play in the
driveshaft, I think that would be much more invisible with an
automatic. Anyway, whenever I can scrape enough cash together I would
like to replace it with an ARB. IMHO, not quite as bulletproof as the
Detroit, but definately more street friendly. Plus I'll have the
on-board air I've wanted!
Scott
- --
_____
/_/_|_\__ Scott Wilson
| _ _ : Santa Clara, CA
*/_\---/_\' http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
(_) (_)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:37:49 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: 93 4Runner rear locker
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I already forgot who the guy was who started this thread but I remember
he was in San Jose. I wanted to mention to you...if you have whatever
you get installed, I highly reccomend:
Rearend Specialties
1040 DiGiulio St
Santa Clara, CA 95050
408-988-3619
They installed my Detroit for $115. They are VERY good. They came
highly recommended to me, and I've since reccomended them to many
people. I have yet to hear of a problem with them.
Scott
- --
_____
/_/_|_\__ Scott Wilson
| _ _ : Santa Clara, CA
*/_\---/_\' http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
(_) (_)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:45:01 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: More Locker Questions.............
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Rob Ditusa wrote:
> Could those of you with Detroits in the rear please elaborate on "bad
> street performance", or "funky characteristics"???????
Well, my biggest complaint is the 1/4 turn of play in the drive shaft.
With a stick shift you'll feel it every time you pull away from a stop,
and sometime even when shifting between other gears (over time you learn
to drive it better, and the problem lessens)
If you also supply enough torque to the rear wheels (e.i. accelerate
quickly while turning right out of a drive way, or make a fast right
hand turn from a stop or near stop) the locker can lock up. One wheel
will hop, or slide along the pavement while the other is firmly
planted. (sounds like you're doing a burner)
For the same reason I just mentioned they can also make you sound like
you're doing a burner in a parking lot. Some of the lots use a black
top material that is not as abrasive as streets. The can sound like
your peeling out at 1-2mph.
Then there is the though of lockers on ice. I have yet to drive mine on
ice, so I can't share my experience. It's not that the truck will kill
you in slippery conditions though...you just need to remember the locker
is there...and drive the truck appropiately.
> What set-up do you recommend for my truck?????? I was thinking:
> Detroit in the rear and tru-trac in the front. Good choice???
I also will probably get a Tru-trac in my front end, but I still want an
ARB/rear.
Scott
- --
_____
/_/_|_\__ Scott Wilson
| _ _ : Santa Clara, CA
*/_\---/_\' http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
(_) (_)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:05:28 -0700
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: Scorpion MK-I and other gravity fighting machines
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> [-->> ] How does that LockRight work in the rear during normal
> driving? Does one notice it is there at all? Might be getting one for
> free....
I have lock rights front and rear and absolutely no complaints, have had
them for more than a couple years too. You drive a bit different with a
locker but I put a lot of miles on my truck including trips up the
famous windey coastal highway 1 and lots of city driving (It is the only
vehicle I have). I don't have anything to compare them to so I can't
say how they compare but I think they were the best improvement for my
truck. It helps on the street too(100% torque transfer and better
street traction).
Being free doesn't hurt either...
- --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brandon Miller email: sac78483@saclink.csus.edu
Sacramento, CA millerb@gaia.ecs.csus.edu
url:
http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb
TLCA #6013
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 14 Oct 1997 09:10:58 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Welding rear axle gears
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:02 AM
OFFICE MEMO Welding rear axle gears Date: 10/14/97
orbital666@juno.com (Mike M Zio) wrote:
>I was wondering, how would i go about welding my rear end to make it
>possie traction, my friend welded the gears together and he has possie
>traction, both wheels spin, i figure this would be great for better
>offroad performance, what are the concequences? please email me with
>your info.
Usually the best way is to weld all the spiders together and
then also to the carrier itself. Use lots of high nickel content
rod. Once done you will have what is commonly refered to as
a Lincoln Locker.
You will not have any posi action as both axles will be forced
to always turn at the same speed. This will cause one of the
tires to skip and chirp when you corner. It will also tend to
push you straight in the turns. For turning you will have to
adopt a kinda point and gas it technique. I know guys that have
done it and it works ok for a cheap offroad locker. A true
locker though will be much better.
If you continue to drive it much on the street you will wear
your tires quickly and over time will most likely convert
the Lincoln Locker to what I call a Crack-Lok (tm) as the
carrier will usually crack in half due to the increased stress.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:47:07 -0800
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: TRD limited-slip diff
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
I have a TRD LSD in my 4Runner, and I love it.
Off-highway they are great, I go everywhere the ARB guys go, and have yet
to break a driveline component. On the highway, you can hardly tell its
back there (no banging, or tire chirping, or under-steer). No switches to
remember to turn off or on. No compressor or vacuum lines to plumb, leak,
or worry about. For a daily driver, like mine, its ideal. The only
downside is sometimes they don't automatically lockup when needed. Then
I simply apply my e-brake a few clicks, and they lock rite up. AFAIK,
they are made by TRD, I haven't heard otherwise. The clutch packs last
a long time. A friend of mine put over 100,000 on his original set in
the rear diff. I have about 20,000 on mine so far.
I had a Detroit on my '85 pickup. It worked great off-road, but I hated the
on-highway manners .
##################################################################
Rick Murray 22R motor ; 3-inch lift
84 Toyota 4Runner SR5 33" BFG M/Ts ; 4.88 gears
Rancho Cordova, Ca. Rancho 9000's ; on-board air
http://www.gvn.net/~rmurray/ Marlin TCase #67 ; TRD LSD
##################################################################
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 09:18:09 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Subject: cost of r&p swap and detroit?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>>> I know this subject has come up before, but I don't recall the results.
>>> I have an '83 pickup and would like have 4.88s installed along with a
>>> Detroit Softlocker in the rear. Is $1500 a reasonable cost for this?
>4WPW advertises a gear and locker package.
>$1,049.95 for a 4 cyl straight axle which I don't think includes
>installation.
The $1049 does NOT include install, but does include 2 Ring & pinions,
Carrier bearings, Pinion bearings, 1 detroit 'soft' locker for the Rear
and a Detroit True-trak for the front.
Installation should run about $100-125 for a 'carry in' center section, or
$150-200 per end on a shop job.
You might look at picking these parts up and bringing them to the shop
that is going to perform the work. Also if you're thinking about it
now's the time to replace Rear axle bearings and even front bearings,
since they'll be out anyway.
- - Brian
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:54:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bruce Burden"
Subject: Powertrax No-Slip Differential
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>
> Where I could find more info about this product?
>
Assuming you are calling from North America -
1 800 LOCKERS
Bruce
- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Burden bruceb@isd.tandem.com Tandem Computers Inc.
512-432-8944 Network Verification 14231 Tandem Blvd.
Auto answer(4 rings) Austin, TX 78726
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:38:36 -0500
From: "penny"
Subject: Powertrax No-Slip Differential
To:
More info on this product can be had by calling powertrax technical support
toll free# 1-800-578-1020
Please post any info you get to the list. I am extremely interested in this
product since putting a normal lock-right in my rear axle recently...it
does magic off-road but I must say I dont like the looks I get when it pops
and bangs in parking lots etc. once I get my hands on one of these units,
its going in the rear and the "clunker" can live in the front axle...
Jimmy 82Toy4x4 L.B.
purnrgy@quancon.com
http://www.geocities.com/baja/6397/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:14:34 -0500
From: Darren Floen
Subject: Big Box/ Truetrac
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Sheldon,I really like the True-trac in the front of my 85.Lately,i've
benn running it around in four wheal drive all over the place,and i only
notice minor understeer.It's very tame for a front end.I would question
your reasons for wanting one in the rearend(of a truck).Go with the
detroit for the rear.I really don't have anything negative to say about
my rear detroit,it's been quiet and really transparent.I live up in
Northwestern Ontario where we get lots of snow and ice,and i have no
trouble keeping it under control.I would have to say that the rear
Detroit and front True-trac combo was the best mod i made to my truck.
The True-trac is sorta like a limited slip,but better.I can really
notice it when i'm snowplowing.Both front tires always spin on level
ground,when i'm pushing a bank.In other situations it seems like the
front tires take turns,one speeds up a little,the other slows down,but
both always seem to pull.This is in snow and mud,on rocks it might be
different.
YMMV
Darren
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:01:06 -0600
From: John Schultz
Subject: Big Box/ Truetrac
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I have read what Darren and others have written and have taken all things
into consideration. When I chose a rear TAD I wanted something with very
tame road manners. I could not afford an ARB and didn't want to deal with
the peculiarites of a Detroit or Lockright. I commute over 1000 miles per
week in my Toyota and it's PRIMARY purpose is to allow me to do that as
safely as possible in a midwest (Kansas City Area) winter. My wife
occasionally drives this truck also and I did not want to have her dealing
with an automatic locker in the rear either. It is for the road manners
that I chose the True-Trac. I am not a heavy duty off-roader. If I lived
in the mountains or in Arizona, perhaps it would be a different story but,
for the INTENDED PURPOSE of my truck a Detroit is unacceptable and an ARB
is not worth the extra expense. I feel it is important to realistically
assess your needs and choose from there.
John
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:00:44 -0800
From: "Allen Jensen"
Subject: FYI - Powertrax No Slip
To:
Last week I talked to Powertrax about their new No Slip, not limited slip.
Their web page shows it, but no info. I received their flier the other day,
and put their flier on my page. Here are the two pages:
http://members.home.com/aj7/pwrtrx1.jpg
http://members.home.com/aj7/pwrtrx2.jpg .
Each are about 95K and 118K.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:25:20 -0800
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: Diffs are in!
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> OK, True Trak is the gear LSD right?
Yes
> Can I put one in front and drive all winter with the front
> hubs locked, but usually in 2WD?
Yes that will work as long as both hubs are locked
> If I do, will it make any difference in handling compared
> to driving an open front diff with hubs locked in 2WD?
> I wouldn't think so, but, would like to hear first hand from
> somebody doing this.
No you should not notice it at all in 2WD w/hubs locked.
Chris Geiger http://geiger.mcl.ucsb.edu/offroad.html
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:23:38 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Diffs are in!
To: knight@atmos.albany.edu, Toy4x4@tlca.org
Hey - I can actually talk *FIRST HAND* on this one!
There IS a difference in handling feel between
- a open diff, hubs locked and in 2WD
- a TruTrac diff, hubs locked and in 2WD
The TruTrac will feel like it has MUCH MORE drag
on the front wheels than an open diff does.
It will also have a "return to center" type
action. The steering wheel will want to go
straight. This gets weird on highways where the
road surface is banked/crowned. It feels like the
front end alignment is out cause you drive with
the wheel cranked over a tad.
Mind you - the effect is noticible at first, and
then you get used to it real fast.
In many ways - it feels like driving a
front wheel drive car - except the wheels are not
driven.
The reason is that the TruTrac still tries to
bias the traction between the two wheels EVEN
though the wheels are being dragged and not driven.
The inherent design of a TruTrac (or Torsen or Quaiffe
which are differnt in engineering execution,
but similar in design goals) is that the wheels sense
the total available traction *at that wheel* and then
the diff feeds them exactly the max amount.
What this means is that the diff *knows* how much
torqe *each wheel* can take before "breaking loose /
spinning" and feeds in just enough torque so
that the wheel with less traction will NOT spin.
It then feeds the reaminder of the torque to the other
wheel unitl the wheel *more* traction is just about
to spin. In the driver continues to increase the
torque input (via the right foot) - both tyres
will break loose - simultaneously.
Dont ask how the diff *knows* this stuff - it does
and it works.
This whole thing sounds like the coolest diff
action possible - and it is - for vehicles that
have *some* traction on both wheels at all times.
When one wheel is "in the air" (you RokCrawler
know this!) the diff is basicaly confused and spits
all the torque out of the wheel that is in the air -
just like an open diff. Careful application of the
brakes can "fool" the diff into biasing most of the
avail traction to the other wheel.
There was an "ultimate" diff. Sadly, its no longer
made.
It worked like a Detroit Locker in the straight -
both axles were LOCKED together - at all times.
Put one wheel in the air and the axles were still
locked, just like a Detroit.
But in corners, it was magic - it acted like a Torsen
(i.e.TruTrac) When going around corners, it did
not lock/unlock like a Detroit did, it *biased* the
torque loads like a Torsen does. If you dropped one
wheel into the air while going around a turn -
the axles locked again unitl traction returned.
The locking mechanism was via rollers and *not*
via dogleg clutches (like the detroit). Therfore
the locking action was *very smooth* - no bang/pow.
w.j.markerink@a1.nl had built a great site describing
traction diffs and how they work - in particular
their advantages and disadvantages for different types
of terrain. A good place to understand what the difference
is between a clutch type LSD and a gear type torque
proportioning device (TPD - note that I did not call
a TruTrac an LSD)
EWong
>>>>
OK, True Trak is the gear LSD right?
Can I put one in front and drive all winter with the front
hubs locked, but usually in 2WD?
If I do, will it make any difference in handling compared
to driving an open front diff with hubs locked in 2WD?
I wouldn't think so, but, would like to hear first hand from
somebody doing this.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:54:15 -0800
From: Scott Muir
Subject: Lockers on Ice, experience
To: "Toy4x4@tlca.org"
Runars wrote:
>Talking about lockers... (Detroit or something)
>THE SURPRIZE was when trying to drive straight....! It is almost
>impossible.... Everytime I step on the gas or let go off it, the truck
>jumps in either direction. I blame it on the freeplay in the locker.
I'll just jump in here with some comments on a borrowed detroit
I've been using for the last 3 weeks. I don't know what model this is,
and the owner wasn't sure either, but it's an older 'replace the
carrier' type.
This is in a 85 SR5 xtracab. 31x11.5 Hankook Dynamics. Front diff is
open, whereas Runar said his locker is in the front. I really like it
offroad. It makes really good use of the tires. It rocks!
On-road is different. I have to say that I run my truck more like a
sportscar and this detroit doesn't like me doing this. What Runar
mentions above on ice, I get some sense of my truck wanting to do the
same on the highway. I think it comes from the locker not spooling
when going in a straight line and actually only powering one side.
I've driven an FJ40 with a lockright in the back. It was a real
handful on the street. Short wheelbase, less than tight steering,
32" BFG-MT's. Pull hard to the right when on the gas, and hard to
the left when compression braking for the same reason (but waaaaaay
worse).
It is however really quiet and really fun on wet pavement. I really
hate the "added backlash" in the system. It detracts from an otherwise
fine piece of hardware.
However, I've decided I want a manual locker instead. I don't offroad
enough to justify the side effects. The another benefit of a manual
locker is you can go off-roading 'UN-locked'.
Speaking of which, can anyone tell me what years and for what models the
electric locking diff. was available??? That's what I'm shooting for at
the moment.
Thanks,
Scott.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:25:29 -0800
From: "Todd and Terry Steele"
Subject: Re: Gears & Lockers
Brian wrote:
- - What I was wondering was>where everyone has gotten their best price (I
know someone had a price on a >lock-rite for $225 delivered?) I'm looking
for 4.88 gears with either a >Detroit Locker in the rear, and a Tru-trac
front or
Front and rear EZ Lockers from Hicks 4X$ in Pomona CA for $540 delivered.
1-800-999-posi or CA 1-909-865-7170
>Does anyone run a locker up front? I'm thinking of either a detroit or a
>lock-rite/ez-locker in the front.
On the street it's transparent (manual hubs) Off road I get a little push
at slow speeds when turning. No difficulties actually turning the wheel
though.
Todd
His: 87 Toyota 4X4, Marlin Tcase #180, EZ Lockers F/R, Warn MX8000, Custom
rear bumper and nerfs, Ramsey F bumper, Trailmaster/Superlift 4", 33-9.5 BFG
MT's. Custom Body by Sierra Nevada.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 08:33:47 -0700
From: Rob Boyle
Subject: Re: Gears & Lockers
Todd and Terry Steele wrote:
>
> Brian wrote:
> - What I was wondering was where everyone has gotten their best price
I found the best prices for gears at Drivetrain Warehouse, and Reider
Racing had EZ lockers for 245.
- --
Rob Boyle
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:27:31 -0700
From: Jim Brink
Subject: Re: Limited Slip Diffs
Jon Brandt wrote:
>
> I was planning on regearing soon. What are people's experiences with
> using limited slip differentials with a stick shift, on the trail?
>
> I was planning on going with the Detroit True Tracs, as their
> [un]lockers do not pass my quality standards, and ARBs are out of my
> price range.
The Downey LSD works great and has no adverse effects on the street. No
need to tap the brake pedal either, it locks (sic) up right away. You do
have to experiment with the amount of LSD fluid you add (right Jay?) to
get the slippage you want, lots or little.
I know of a few folks that have had second thoughts about the True
Tracs, both in front and rear. One individual swapped his TT out for a
LockRight (front) and another is considering this same change in the
near future.
Allen, your input on this matter?
- --
Jim Brink
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:12:44 -0700
From: Eric Munsen
Subject: Re: Limited Slip Diffs
From: Jon Brandt
Subject: Limited Slip Diffs
>I was planning on regearing soon. What are people's experiences with
>using limited slip differentials with a stick shift, on the trail?
>I was planning on going with the Detroit True Tracs, as their
>[un]lockers do not pass my quality standards, and ARBs are out of my
>price range.
I just pulled out a True-crap..I mean Track. I replaced it with an ARB.
With the ARB disengaged, I am getting more traction controll than with
the True-Track. I can't caution you enough about buying one, they are a
total waste of money.
In my 86 ifs truck I used lock-rites front and rear and after 22K miles
had no problems and they worked like a champ. But didn't run huge tires
either(31x11.5).
>I understand that tapping or holding the brakes on is sometimes required
>to assist the LS units. This didn't help mine at all
>Jon Brandt
My suggestion is to use the Detroit Soft Locker in the rear. They may
not meet your quality standards, but consider this. I run 35" tires and
Mine has 48,000 miles on it, shows verry little wear and has outlasted
2 ring and pinion sets. Save your money for an ARB in the front. I have
not purchased anything that I am happier with for my truck.
J.M.H.O.
Eric Munsen
84 SR5
http://unix.off-road.com/~renegade/mte9711/img07.jpg
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:15:03 -0700
From: Jon Brandt
Subject: Re: Limited Slip Diffs
Well, to fully explain myself...
I do not like the quality of engineering of the Detroit products.
Surprisingly, (despite the name) they seem to be very reliable.
I just tend to affiliate them with the quality of GMs ect., since they
are found on GMs, and they are neighbors in Michigan.
(Same goes for Dana.)
My own PERSONAL opinion is that anything that adds drive train slop is
not worth paying money for. Please remember, my driveway is not an
off-road trail, and I don't "wheel" as much as some 'a yas. ...maybe
once a month, and I don't have a wife to stop me.
I am still seriously thinking about the True Trac, since they seem to be
reliable traction aiding devices. Keep in mind also, that I am only in
the market for a LSD anyway. So I couldn't/wouldn't say anything about
the lockers as far as reliability. The only thing I know about them is
from riding in freinds' trucks with them. ...not for me. :)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:12:10 -0700
From: "Allen Jensen"
Subject: Limited Slip Diffs
I run the Detroit True Tracs front and rear pretty successfully. However,
I am running an Auto trans. If you hold the brakes down, pretty hard
sometimes, they will lock pretty well, but not 100%. If you are running
stick shift, it might be a little tricky if you are rock crawling. Even
with Auto I have had opposing corners spinning while twisted up pretty
good. I have taken diamond trails with these with no problems so far.
It depends on how much rock crawling you want to do, vs street performance
and less twisting.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:01:23 -0700
From: Jon Brandt
Subject: Re: Limited Slip Diffs
Allan, have you tried lowering the differential fluid a little?
Some say that this helps a bit. It seems like yours slips more than
others reporting, with the Downey LSD. I would be curious to see if it
is the Detroit LSDs, or if its just the fluid level. Reason: the True
tracks are much cheaper. The Downey is nearly twice as much (in
Performance) than the local 4WPartsWs price.
more reply below...
Allen Jensen wrote:
>
> I run the Detroit True Tracs front and rear pretty successfully. However,
> I am running an Auto trans. If you hold the brakes down, pretty hard
> sometimes, they will lock pretty well, but not 100%. If you are running
> stick shift, it might be a little tricky if you are rock crawling. Even
> with Auto I have had opposing corners spinning while twisted up pretty
> good. I have taken diamond trails with these with no problems so far.
Yea, I've been right behind ya buddy. Remember, you had to yank me to
the top? Thanks again!
Jon Brandt
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:33:20 -0400
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: TruTracs and Manual Trannies
>>
What are people's experiences with
using limited slip differentials with a stick shift, on the trail?
<<
I dont tend to do "wheels in air" kinda wheeling. So the TruTracs got my
vote for preferred diff. Im running 4.56 gears and dual TruTracs w/ 31x10.5
BFG ATs on a 15x7 rim (4.5" backspacing).
I've never had to resort to the brake trick - yet. Most stucks I have been
in have been where the frame is high centered on something. No locker in
the world will help there.....
I have heard some people pull the "detent" clicker out of the parking brake
so that they can pull it and NOT lock it (aka let go to release) kinda like
a turning brake.
I found the true tracs are a keep yer foot on the gas kinda move for me -
probably why I end up with the frame hung up...
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:56:23 -0700
From: "Allen Jensen"
Subject: True Tracs
This weekend, redoing my brakes, I found that my rear brakes were so far
out of adjustment that pushing on the brakes while twisted up didn't seem
to lock up the back true trac well enough. A couple weekends ago, Jim
Brink and I took the Miller Jeep trail. While backing down a steel mud
hill, I wasn't stopping very well. Only the fronts were working well.
During the 4Runner Jamboree in Big Bear recently, I took the diamond trails
without a problem. I was surprised how well the true tracs got me over the
dishpan springs hill, especially compared to some of the locked trucks. I
have a spot on the Big Bear video with the front tire spinning, then I
stopped, pushed the brakes a little, then you see me climb forward with the
front tire in the air not spinning.
I love the True Trac in the rear myself, but kind of wish I had put a
locker in the front for those rock crawling times, now that my friends seem
to be dragging me rock crawling more than I thought I would.
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:45:20 -0700
From: "Kenneth Sigel"
Subject: RE: Gear and Locker info
I love the ARB. It's worth every penny to be able to have an open diff. My
truck is also a daily driver and I used to have a Truetrac in the rearend.
I broke the Trutrac after about 6 month. I think I was just too hard on
it - it seemed to lock up whenever I turned a corner and stepped on the gas.
I've gotten better wear out of my tires with the ARB too.
Ken Sigel
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:44:18 -0000
From:
Subject: RE: Gear and Locker info
Naturally there are more failures on ARB than on Detroits. The ARB is
simply more complicated.
The ARB however has the mega advange of being a regular, manually, lockanble
diff, while the Detroit is an automatic unlocker. For those who need to be
able to drive in 4Wd high on highways, those automatic lockers, and
unlockers are not nice. They can actually simply get dangerous at times.
For those who never see more slippery highways than the local gravel road,
then the ARB advange (or the ome electrics) isn't that much of an
advange....
Cheers,
Runar.
--------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:58:52 -0600
From: "Steven Girt"
Subject: Gear and Locker Info
Earl, I opted for 4:88 Richmond (8.0") rear and a catalog special brand
4:88 in the front (7.5") to push 33x12.50's, then 36" Dick Cepeks. To
complement my gears I installed Lock Right lockers front and rear. I would
not install a full locker in the front again for a daily driver. Turning on
Ice and Snow can become very difficult. An ARB would be my choice if
regearing again. I chipped and broke my rear ring/pinion gear in a turn
while excelerating.
I would go with 4:88's if you stick with 33's and an ARB in the front and a
True Track or Lock Right in the rear. I really enjoy my setup.
Steve
www.geocities.com/baja/5498
89 Toyota V6, 36x17 Dick Cepek, Rancho Lift
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:32:56 -0500
From: "Lance Morin"
Subject: RE : Gear and Locker info
Earl, I installed a LockRight in the rear of my '98 Tacoma and really
enjoyed it while I used that truck for 4 wheelin'. Since then, I've
purchased an '81 Toyota 4x4 Short Bed that had welded rear spider gears (use
for off-roading only) and open differential up front. I immediately
installed a LockRight in the front of this truck. While, I've not used this
new LockRight very often, it was very economical. I've not heard anybody
complain about a LockRight in a Toyota. Now, I have heard a couple Jeep
owners who've had problems with a LockRight up front. If it's a daily driver
and price is a factory, I'd recommend a LockRight. If price isn't a factor,
go for the ARB's. Both companies offer great service. When my welded rear
spider gears go, I'll be installing a Detroit back there. The '81 is an
off-road only vehicle though. I don't see the need for ARB's if the truck or
whatever you drive is only used off-road. That's while I'll upgrade to a
Detroit in the rear when the welded spider gears finally give. LockRights
are good, but let's face it, the Detroit soft-locker is the high end and
basically flawless for most people.
I'm currently running 4.37 gears (in the '81 pickup) on 33x12.50 Super
Swamper TSL's (yes the original Swamper for me). However, the Swamper TSL
runs about 33.6" tall and that's almost as large as many generic off-road
mud terrains. I don't have bead locks, but do run the Swampers around at 5-7
lbs on 10x15 wheels. One day I'll move to 5.29 (think that's right) gears
and run 35x15.50 Super Swamper TSL/SX tires. I ride with an '82 pickup
running 5.71 gears and 35x15.50 Boggers, but he's wanting to drop back to
5.29 gears because he also has the dual transfer case. I even ran with an
'80 pickup this past weekend who has 4.37 gears and 33x15.50 Boggers, but he
also has the dual transfer case setup and welded front and rear. (You've not
seen ugly truck until you've seen this bobbed '80 short bed)
My '98 Tacoma has 4.10 gears and 32x11.50 BFG Muds on 7x15 wheels with a
LockRight in the rear. The Tacoma has become the tow truck when I flat tow
the '81 to go play. I'd remove the locker in the Tacoma, but it's not worth
the effort and I like knowing it's there if the '81 breaks down at a larger
event. I can always play in the Tacoma, just not as hard :-)
Those dual t-cases and the low crawl ratio are great for rockcrawling. The
low 2 wheel drive is a nice option as well. I know you can get the adapter
and just add another case, but does anybody have more details on this. I'd
love to make this upgrade sometime down the line. I just have other items to
tend to first.
Lance M. (FWD-FWD)
lance@fwd-fwd.org
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:50:26 -0700
From: "Roger Brown, P.E."
Subject: Re: Brake Trick Was:TruTracs and Manual Trannies
Jon Brandt wrote:
> The "brake trick" can be used with or without limited slip
> differentials. The "trick" is pulling on the parking brake, to prevent
> the wheels from spinning aggressively. With LSDs, this may assist the
> unit in adding friction to the system, to keep the wheels from getting
> momentum which the LSD can not fight. With open differentials, it does
> the same thing, without the aid of the LSD. This can especially help in
> steep, sandy/slippery conditions where the neccessity of using momentum
> may put one of your front wheels in the air momentarily. The difference
> is most noticable in a situation where you have it guned to gain
> momentum quickely to get through a section where you are lifting a
> wheel.
The parking brake technique only applies to the rear axle. For the front, you
need to use the regular braking system. Since front disk/rear drum setups
have brakes biased towards the front, stepping on the brakes applies drag on
the front axle to help lock up the TrueTrac. Since the TT has about a 3:1
torque transfer characteristic, if you can apply say 100 lb-ft of torque to a
wheel in the air via the brakes, then about 300 lb-ft of torque can be
transferred to the opposite side. After subtracting the 100 lb-ft of braking
drag on that side, you are left with a net 200 lb-ft of torque to the ground.
It is indeed a strange feeling to be stuck, then apply the brakes and begin to
move. The harder you brake the harder it pulls. I have been toying with the
idea of a cab mounted lever to cut out the rear brakes (via the proportioning
valve) for just these situations. I've heard rumors that in-cab brake bias
adjusters are not legal, can anyone comment on this.
- --
Roger Brown, http://reality.sgi.com/rogerb/4Runner.html
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:53:13 -0700
From: Paul Kube
Subject: Re: ARB or Detroit
> From: michael
> Somebody that has a DAILY driver with a Detroit softlocker...........how
> does it behave?
Ah, a subject near to my heart.
When I was deciding between a Detroit and an Airlocker for the rear,
it was explained to me that driving a Detroit on the street is like
driving with a bad u-joint. This turns out to be true, but it is only
part of the story, namely what the driveline slop is like when you're
not turning. So, anyway, part of the decision should be whether you
would like driving with a bad u-joint all the time. (If you already
have a bad u-joint this won't be a problem :)
The other part relates to what it's like in a turn on dry pavement.
You may be surprised to find that this "traction-aiding device" actually
reduces traction on dry pavement in a turn, compared to an open diff...
reduces it to about half, in fact, since it drives only the wheel
that's having weight transferred off of it in the turn. This may or
may not be a problem, depending on how you drive. Another feature
is that if, in a turn, you switch from accelerating to engine braking,
or vice versa, the Detroit will switch from unlocking the outside
wheel to unlocking the inside wheel, or vice versa, and in a tight turn,
where those wheel speeds are quite different, the effect is not subtle.
Describing all this in words doesn't really do it justice; the best
thing is to find someone who has one and who will let you drive it
to see what it's really like.
They do wheel pretty well, though, I must say.
--Paul
'85 4Runner SR5, Alcans, Detroits, 32" BFG's
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:01:15 -0600 (MDT)
From: Scott Ellinger
Subject: Re: ARB or Detroit
> > Somebody that has a DAILY driver with a Detroit softlocker...........how
> > does it behave?
>
I'm not sure if it's a softlocker or the old "hard" locker, but either way,
it's a Detroit. And it is in my former daily driver (till I bought the Chevy
and broke the Toy...) still; I just can't drive the truck. :(
But it behaves pretty well. If I let it do its thing (it takes some getting
used to for the first week or so) it's almost totally transparent, but I
know that I'm helping make it so by subtle changes in my driving style. If
I try to make it lock, bang, and clang, it will, but not a whole lot.
It's most noticeable when I take off from a light that had a sidehill-ish
approach (high road crown) about midway across the intersection--it emits a
rather loud bang (louder than the sound of a breaking axle) and sometimes
this bang is accompanied by a slight shimmy or small jerk. Might be scary
on ice, but I drove with a LockRight all last winter no problem, and I doubt
the the Detroit will be any worse. If it is, well, I'll just use the old
LockRight, now up front, to make things really scary.... :)
- --scott
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:39:57 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Re: ARB or Detroit
> Somebody that has a DAILY driver with a Detroit Softlocker how
> does it behave?
For me is comes down to the pro’s and cons for Off road vs on road. On
road the ARB is far better than the Detroit. Off Road I think the
Detroit is better. On Road the Detroit will understeer into the corner
and switch rapidly to oversteer when it unlocks. It takes a little time
to get used to but is not dangerous in any way. Proper driving technique
will almost eliminate its effect. You also have the benefit of a fairly
long wheelbase, in a shorty like the LC40 the effects are much harsher.
The ARB on the other hand is the same as an open carrier when unlocked.
So the ARB shows no nasties on the road. Off Road is a different story.
Calling the ARB a locker is not really correct. Is really a part time
spool. By that I mean unlocked you have an open carrier, but when locked
you have a spool (No differential action). This has its down side in
that you can easily exceed the limits of the axle and break things if
you don’t unlock when doing tight turns. Most time you will find ARB
equipped rigs are left open till needed. A lot of the time your stuck by
this stage. You also have problems with the air hose getting ripped off.
The Detroit on the other hand is always locked but unlocks to relieve
stress when needed in turns. You also don’t have to think about it off
road unlike the ARB. On my LC75 I have ARB’s front and back. To make the
whole thing easier I wired the Switches up differently. The Power to the
ARB’s is disabled in 2wd (relay on Tcase 4wd detect switch). Also the
Power to the relay comes from the Indicator switch (rewired for 2
flasher units). All of this means that the locker can’t be engaged in
2wd and is disengaged when you use the turn signals or the ARB switch.
This makes life heaps easier as the turn stalk is easily accessible in a
hurry off road to make a turn and when the wheel straightens the
indicators go off locking the axle.
I have a mix of Detroit Lockers, TrueTrac's and ARB’s in my various rigs
none of the shop trucks have Detroit’s as I don’t like to think what an
employee is doing on the road. One of the pickups has True tracks both
ends. It is rarely offroad. I replaced the open front for more off road
performance and turfed the toy LSD in the back cause they are not worth
having off road as compared to other LSD’s lifespan is also short. The
other has a Tuetrac up front and Detroit in the back. This unit is
rarely driven my anyone else so I fitted the Detroit. This rig does
about 70% off road mostly on the farm. The LC75 has ARB’s as its used
50% offroad hauling parts and supplies. So ARB’s are fitted for employee
reasons. Finally TT2 has Detroit’s as does TT3. Reason being offroad
performance is paramount in these rigs.
My advise is to have a very hard think about the intended use of you rig
before deciding on any traction adding device. On one end is the Open
and the other Detroit. The ARB and LSD fall in the middle depending on
your mix of off road/onroad.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:24:58 -0700
From: "Roger Brown, P.E."
Subject: Re: Brake Trick Was:TruTracs and Manual Trannies
Brandon wrote:
> why not just get a locker???
One word - SNOW! That TrueTrac is excellent in the white stuff. Maybe when I
can afford a dedicated ski vehicle, I'll throw an ARB up front.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:32:44 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Re: Problem with EZ Locker?
Menko Johnson wrote:
>
> I just had an EZ locker installed in the rear. Afterwards I noticed that when turning, the truck sometimes lurches back and forth violently. This often happens when I enter my driveway at a slow speed as I start to accelerate up it. If I apply more gas, it tends to go away. But this has occured at a higer speeds as well, with the same lack of throttle. I'm not talking zero throttle, but just low throttle.
>
> Related to that, my truck also now "jumps" as I start to accelerate. Its like going to from no throttle to about 1/2 in one spot. There is no smooth acceleration at all. I worry about wheeling with this at slow speeds, since these two problems together can make things rather unpleasant. Is this a normal characteristic of the locker? help! ;-)
I hate to say it....but thats what you get for going with an EZ locker
in the rear. (or LockRight for that matter)
I know there are a ton of LockRight faithfuls on this list, that swear
they're the greatest locker....but they just don't compare to a Detroit
locker.
I've ridden if friends trucks that have LockRight rears, and compared to
my Detroit...its TORTURE. They buck, just as you describe...especially
in U-turns...EVEN WITH THE CLUTCH DISENGAGED! They're also very
noisy...I've never actually heard my Detroit clicking (though of course
I hear the BANG you get every once in awhile)
I also have a Detroit EZ...but it's in my front diff. It sucks! In
tight turns it sounds like it's gonna tear my front end apart with all
the clicking, popping, and jerking. I can't wait until I do the
straight axle swap one day...then I can finally have an ARB up front.
That bump you're feeling when you take off from a stop is the play in
the driveshaft catching up. You can lessen it's effects, by slowly
engaging the clutch as you take off from a stop.....or if you're at a
light and have time, you can put the truck in first, and engage the
clutch just enough to turn the driveshaft. That way when you go to
drive away, the drive line will already be tight, and it won't give you
that bump.
Scott
Oh...and welcome to the click, click, click, snap, BANG club. :-)
- --
_____
/_/_|_\__ Scott Wilson TLCA #5261 CA4WDC #13393
| _ _ : 88 4Runner SR5 V6
*/_\---/_\' Santa Clara, CA
(_) (_) http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:22:56 -0600
From: "Steve C."
Subject: Re: Problem with EZ Locker?
perfectly normal...its letting you know it works. You must relearn how
to drive your truck. If its a 5 speed and thats what it sounds like you
must caress the clutch a bit more than you would with open diff. This
is due to the lockers inherent 1/16 driveline slop so that the side gear
pin does not bind the locker from disengaging on turns.
- --
Steve Capuano
stevecapuano@geocities.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:31:11 -0800
From: Jonathan Powers
Subject: Re: Problem with EZ Locker?
Menko, I'm running a lockright locker front and rear and it pretty much has the same characteristics as yours but much milder. I generally try to compensate all of the lurching by tapping the throttle.
Jonathan
85 4runner
--------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:49:46 +0000
From: Menko Johnson
Subject: Re: Problem with EZ Locker?
thanks to everyone who replied. I have some driveline problems already
(when I let the clutch out, I hear a clunk) so I think this locker is
exacerbating that problem. The problem with tapping the throttle is
I don't have smooth acceleration at the low end, it jumps like crazy!
So I was wondering if this is a problem with TPS adjustment or something
related to that? If I could fix that, dealing with the throttle and
thus lessening the locker's effect would be easier.
Thanks!
Menko
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:11:21 EST
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Re: Problem with EZ Locker?
In a message dated 10/26/98 12:37:09 PM Central Standard Time, swilson@off-
road.com writes:
> I know there are a ton of LockRight faithfuls on this list, that swear
> they're the greatest locker....but they just don't compare to a Detroit
> locker.
Well that depends on what you call "compare". Some would that they don't
compare in that the full detroit is stronger and has better road
characteristics.
I would say they do compare in that you can be locked front & rear for the
price of 1 detroit. Also, if it breaks, re-install the spider gears on the
trail & you are on your way.
I have had no problems with the lockrite in the front of my truck.
I have driven 2 vehicles with lockrites in the rear - a Sammi and a 4Runner.
In the 4Runner the rear locker was invisible. In the Sammi I was constantly
reminded it was there with any change in throttle. I also drove a Wrangler
with a full detroit & 38" swampers and I could hardly tell it was back there.
By the way, I have a friend with a Jeep Willys pickup with 44" boggers, one
big hot V8 and a lockrite in the rear Dana 70 axle with no complaints. You
can't say that lockrites just aren't up to severe duty use.
I guess the main complaint I have is price. You can get 2 lockrites/EZ
lockers delivered to your door for a wee bit over $400. One detroit is what,
$450 (please correct this if it is wrong). For $300 more I took the ARB with
NO CHANGE IN ROAD MANNERS ;)
If you are having that much driveline slop, you really need to look at your
slip spline condition, replace the U joints (can't always tell if a cap is
dead untill you take it apart). Your rear end could have been set up
improperly if you had gears done at the same time.
David
DRM033@aol.com
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:09:07 -0800
From: Jim Brink
Subject: Re: Front Diff woes...
Rosenberger Bud wrote:
>
> My 87 4Runner possibly swallowed some sand when the drive flange pulled
> out on the Pine Barrens trip. I drained the fluid last night and found
> more metal than I'd like...I'm wondering a few things. If you have any
> insights, I'd appreciate it!
>
> 1. How much metal is "normal" for 96k and minimal 4x usage in it?
No more than a few barely-visible shavings.
> 2. Does the factory use a FIPG or a paper gasket on the front cover?
Silicone sealer, no gasket. Just about any RTV will work. I've used
blue, black, red, copper, etc. on these before with good luck.
> Mine has red goop on it and it doesn't look orig. My 86 has no goop
> showing.
This is the original goop. Use on IFS only! ;-)
> 3. Any ideas on flushing it out and with what before I refill?
I would pull the cover and hose it out with brake cleaner several times.
Let it air dry, then wash it a bit more. Refill with clean gear oil, run
for a few miles, then drain and refill once again. This should be
sufficient. Your main concern is the bearings, these IFS things are
really picky about metal shavings in the bearings ;-) Oh, also assure
that no more natural earth minerals are introduced into differential's
inner workings, as recommended by the manufacturer.
>
> Any one want to see a totally ground to death inner tulip!?!? Sand,
> small rocks, and metal shavings, all served in a moly grease sauce. YUM
Sand is not a recommended lubricant for the tulips, Bud.
- --
Jim Brink, Manhattan Beach, CA toytech@off-road.com
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician http://www.off-road.com/~toytech/
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1986 Std. Bed 4WD - TLCA - Friends of the Mojave Road - CA4WDC
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Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:45:42 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: "Gearless" locker?
David wanted to know how the "gearless" locker worked.
I havent seen one, but after studying diffs for a long time (to
understand how they worked - hell DaVinci invented them back
in 15 whatever, so I should be able to figure this out given
an engineering degree) I think I can take a stab at how the
thing works...
This analysis is based on looking at the pictures - and guessing
at how it oughta work..
The Detroit works on a "dog clutch" principle. Think of the top of
a "rook" piece in chess. Mesh two together. See how they lock
solid?
OK - so normally - a Detroit is locked solid. If you apply any input
torque - it stays locked. If you let off the gas a "spring" in between
the two "dog clutches" forces them teeth apart and you get some
"differential" action - the wheels are not connected together and
can spin at different speeds.
The problem is when you get back on the gas - the teeth are forced
back together and then they mesh - with a bang as the teeth engage.
The softlocker (AFAIK) tries to reduce the bang by tapering the edges
of the "teeth". You cant do that too much as then it wont lock.
The Gearless locker works in a similar fashion - but with a twist.
OK - to make a locker you need to lock both axles together.
So the Detroits used "dog teeth" on the face of two disks and
forced the disks together to lock the axles. The Dog teeth
are the "gears"
The GearLess locker uses splined sleeves - similar to the inside of
a manual hub. Ok - so theres this splined tube thing that can span
the two axles and lock them together. How do you get them
to sepearte for "differential action"?
The gearless uses two disk - again. One disk is attached to each
axle side. Between the two disks is a rather large solid rod - the
"Trunkel V" power thing in the pictures. The rod rides in V shaped
grooves.
Under staight line accel, the rod sits in the bottom part of the
groove - the two disks are very close to each other and one
disk is attached to the sleeve that locks the two axles
together - the diff is locked.
going around a turn, the one disk tries to move past the
other disk -the rod move up the "ramp" of one of the V grooves
in one of the disks - the disks move apart and one of the
disks is connected to the sleeve which unlocks the
axles - the diff is now "open"
There is a spring that adds preload and tries to push the disks back
together. So it wont "hang" in the unlocked position.
Thats my guess.
Neat idea. Probably quite stong. Possibly sensitive to gear oils used (the
rod has to slide up the ramps).
Still not as *neato* as the Hewland (? not sure as I remember the maker)
Now that was a diff. It was normally locked - just like a Detroit, but
when going around corners - it didnt unlock and become "open" -
it unlocked and became a torque sensing diff - applied max avail torque
to each wheel just before wheelspin. Now THAT was a magic diff!
EWong
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Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:21:42 -0800
From: Steve Harron
Subject: RE: Removing Rear Axle
> Hi, how do I remove an axle from the rear bearing.
>
I used a die grinder to CAREFULLY cut the bearing most of the way
through. Then you can break it off with a hammer and chisel. I have heard
(but never witnessed) the bearings being pressed off, but the die grinder
works for me.
Steve Harron
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