Differentials - Lockers
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Locker in front or back?
From: Jerry Fields
Date: 20 Mar 1996 17:58:50 GMT
It never fails to amaze me how an idea so simple can cause so much
debate...
Start with this scenario:
2wd, open diff, 1 drive wheel on pavement, other on gravel or dirt.
Torque from axles is 400 ft lbs. Wheel on gravel starts to spin at 100 ft
lbs of torque; total power available to move vehicle is "spinning point",
or 100 ft lbs in this example.
Add a locked diff. Spinning wheel forces wheel on pavement to rotate.
Power available to move vehicle jumps up to full 400 ft lbs, assuming the
"spinning point" of wheel on pavement is above 400.
Jump to 4wd, open diffs. 2 wheels on pavement, 2 wheels on gravel or
dirt. One wheel on each axel must spin under power. "Spinning point" is
still 100, but now force available to move vehicle is 200 ft lbs, as each
wheel spinning on gravel/dirt has 100 ft lbs of power.
Lock diffs. Wheels on pavement forced to turn. 400 ft lbs available to
move vechicle.
4wd gives a better chance of at least one driven wheel having better
traction than the others, and locked diffs will put the maximum available
power to the ground. The limiting factor is the highest spinning point of
any one of the 4 tires.
If you have only 1 locking diff in a 4wd, where do you put it? As in most
questions, there is no best answer. Rock crawlers may put it in front;
weight ditribution is such that the spinning point will be higher for a
front wheel than a rear wheel. If you are after maximum traction, the
front location is best.
However, when going up a rough slope, the front end tends to bounce off
the ground, effectivly decreasing the spinning point of the tires. I
don't know if the weight transfer effect evens out the spinning points of
front/rear tires.
For street runners who see some off road use, I would install the locker
in the rear. When you need to use it, it will insure that one front and
both back tires must turn at all times, which is usually enough for
street or moderate off-road situations.
There is less stress on the locker due to one tire overrunning the other,
it is easier for the rear tires to scrub off the rotation differential.
This puts less stress on all the driveline components, leading to longer
life and less breakage.
I suspect, but can't prove, that a locker in the rear will give fewer
handling anomalies than a front locker.
IMHO, of course.
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Differential Locker Question
From: Tom Mosca
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:02:23 -0400
Dear Jeff,
> 1) What are the drawbacks to (cheaper) limited slip type lockers
> (Dana trac-lock, a few Detroit lockers). Do they increase tire
> wear and axle strain on road?
Limited slip differentials (LS) and "lockers" (automatic positive
locking differentials) are two different animals. The LS is a (usually)
clutch device that essentially doesn't completely release the high traction
side. However, the high traction side does slip, to a degree determined
by the traction of the clutches. A locker positively locks the two
sides together, so that neither side ever turns slower than the ring
gear. If a situation is encountered in which one side must turn at a
different speed from the other, the locker releases the faster side.
Consider a turn on a clean, dry, paved road. The LS will allow the inside
wheel to slip, and power will be uninterrupted to the outside (faster
turning) wheel. A locker will release the outside wheel, and power will
be transmitted to the inner, slower wheel. This distinction is important
if one frequently get's into situations requiring extreme traction. On
the other hand, most of us are well served by a good LS. I like the
Auburn myself, and have one in each of my offroad vehicles.
Both the LS and locker increase tire wear and axle strain on the
road, to different degrees (LS is less). I have not noticed a measurable
change since I installed the first Auburn in my '94 K1500.
Another point that may be important to some people, myself included,
is lockers can be squirrely. You'll learn to live with it soon enough, but
if you let other people drive your truck it could cause trouble. For
example, if you're going around a fairly tight curve and hit the throttle,
some lockers will lock the axles. This will cause the truck to jump
and squeal. You won't mind, because you know why it happened. If it
happens to your friend, he may be very surprised! There may even be a
liability question.
> 2) Is Lock-Right a limited slip type locker? How does it compare to
> Detroits ez-locker or Dana Trac-lock? Any other good ones under $350?
The Lock-Right is a locker. My brother runs one in his Toyota and
likes it. You should call them (1-800-LOCKERS) for their brochure.
> 3) Is it better to lock the front or rear differential if only doing one?
> (Is it possible to lock the front end when an automatic hub design
> is used?)
Lock or LS the rear. Just being in 4WD makes steering hard enough,
locking the front diff makes it even harder. If locking both, an Air
Locker makes a lot of sense. Use the front locker only when really
needed. An LS in the rear and Air Locker up front should get you out
of any place you care to get into.
Automatic hubs are compatible with lockers.
> 4) Is it possible to install it yourself, and are there any/many additional
> parts needed not included with the lockers?
You're probably better off paying a professional, but it can be done
in a well equipped home workshop. You'll need the proper dial indicator
setup to measure backlash, otherwise you can't do it right. Getting diffs
in and out is hard work, they don't just drop in. It is possible to cause
significant damage in the process. The Lock Right is the exception here.
When you choose a shop, look for one that regularly works on diffs. We
have a shop here where I live that takes apart truck 2-speed diffs all
the time, and I trust them. Your average gas-station mechanic shouldn't
be given this job. However, there are exceptions.
Consider putting in bearings if your truck isn't relatively new. You
won't want to open it up again in the near future. If the company you
deal with will take them back if not needed, get a shim kit. Then you
won't be waiting on the lift for Fed-Ex.
You may wish to call Reider Racing (1-800-357-1330) and talk to one
of their helpful, well-informed technicians (I have no connection other
than as a satisfied customer).
Take care, Tom
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Differential Locker Solution (Dana 35)
From: jhemmett@cc0188.pd9.ford.com (Jeffrey G Hemmett)
Date: 3 Jun 1996 13:13:07 GMT
Hi,
Thanks for all the posted/e-mailed help. With the help of you all and
some input from reider racing, I've decided to go with a Dana Trac-Lok (sp?),
a limited slip unit, in the rear, nothing in the front. Not the most
glamorous solution, but very functional and very inexpensive. I'll share
what I found for anyone else wondering about Locking/Limited Slip Diffs,
particularly for Dana 35 rear and Dana 30 front. I'll try to give the gist
of it without getting too technical. No laughing and pointing by any of you
locking diff gurus out there.
There are many limited slip units that offer better power transfer than the
trac-lok (Auburn gear, Detroit True Track, Dana Power Lok) but none of them
fit the Dana 35. Some of those fit the Dana 30 (my front Diff), but this
is not recommended for a daily driver that doesn't have manually locking hubs.
The handling is effected by the linking of the axles, + the propellor shaft is
turned, increasing mechanical drag.
All limited slip differentials, with the possible exception of the Detroit
True-Track, are not maintence free. They consist of clutch plates which wear,
and must be replaced every 35K miles (or more/less, depending on your driving -
and this is for the Trac-Lok in particular (and 30" tires)). This is not too
expensive though, $55 or so for the plates, maybe $50-60 for installation. Also,
special additives/differential fluid must be used when changing the fluid. This
isn't necessarily more expensive, but you must be aware of it.
Locking diffs offer better power transfer than a limited slip unit, but with
the exception of ARBs they have a greater detrimental effect on handling and
tire wear than a limited slip type unit, particularly on short wheelbase vehicles.
This may not be a problem if your 4x4 is not your daily driver, but is not
recommended for short wheelbase daily drivers.
Installation is best left to a profesional, no matter what option you choose,
unless you are unusually experienced with gears/mechanical power transmission.
Gear backlash must be measured prior to installation, and then shims must be
added/subtracted to reproduce this backlash after installation. I also under-
stand that, with a few exceptions, these units don't just glide right in and
require a bit of convincing with a mallet. This could get ugly if you haven't
done it before. The clutch plates may be replaced by yourself though, as long
as your careful to note the position of the unit prior to removal.
Again, thanks for all your help. I have no affiliation with but have had an
excellent experience with Reider Racing, they will talk on the phone for a long time,
even if it doesn't sound like you are buying anything (I spoke with several people
several times, and then drove down there, before deciding what to do). They will even
talk you out of buying something you think you want if it wouldn't work for you (hence
all my mentions of "daily drivers" and short wheelbase vehicles).
-Jeff
=======
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Limited Slip Differentials
From: wpoole@aa.net (Willis)
Date: 10 Jun 1996 17:15:29 GMT
All this talk about limited slip and trac-lock brings to mind my
first day out off road with a 1991 4.0 with trac-loc Wrangler and red of
course. I tried to creep thru a 1 foot wide 6 inches deep water run off
path on this dirt road in dry condition and my jeep would just spin the
weak rear tire, I dont believe in backing up and throwing myself at the
little ditch..but was so p.o.ed I turned around and went directly to my
local dealer, got lucky they had a canx, put the jeep on a rack tore down
the diff and the clutch plates were in pieces..replaced them. I went down
the street and bought a winch..that solved my problem. Never had any
confidence in trac-loc after that.
I think the perfect solution is to buy the vehicle with an open
diffs at both ends and add air lockers to be engaged when you need them
and also gives you a source of air for tires. Posi traction are murder in
slick conditions..too much rear end swapping where as open axles stay
straight with front left and right rear wheels pulling. Ask any mountain
4X4 guys which axle they want in the snow on small snowy roads.
I have found that limited slip kicks in at the wrong time and you lose
control..I want to be in control..so my next jeep/truck will be open
axles and air lockers..and driving for the road conditions. I also like
this arrangement if I lose or break a rear drive shaft..I can drive out
on front wheels if needed.
--
-Willis...
________________________________________
Master Sergeants may not always be right...
but we are never wrong.. :)
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Limited Slip Differentials
From: Jerry Bransford
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:10:59 -0700
Glenn Wiltse wrote:
>
> I don't do much mountain driving, so I wouldn't know what mountain 4x4
> guys want, but I want more traction and I don't want to have to put a
> locker in my new truck. I'd much rather have a limited slip diff then
> not, assuming the locker is more hassle then I want or need to go
> through for my limited off road use. There's noting to prevent me
> from installing a locker later if I decide I need one.
>
> Besides sliding sideways is sooo much fun... I don't know what
> kind of limited slip diffs you have driven, but I have not had
> any problems with them jumping in unexpectedly and throwing my
> vehicle into any uncontrolable spins.
>
> In article <4phl7h$eht@holly.aa.net>, Willis wrote:
> > Posi traction are murder in
> >slick conditions..too much rear end swapping where as open axles stay
> >straight with front left and right rear wheels pulling. Ask any mountain
> >4X4 guys which axle they want in the snow on small snowy roads.
WHAT??? I drive in snow and on small snowy roads and wouldn't want any
type axle BUT a limited slip!!! I've had both types of axles on 4X4
vehicles (3 with LS, and 1 without) and have NEVER had anything but
positive experiences with LS and negative experiences with those I've
owned without LS.
--
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P.
The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Q: Limited slip only in front diff.?
From: "M. Whatley"
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 03:33:06 -0700
> Paul (Plammer@microsoft.com) wrote:
> stuff deleted
> :
> : If I'm only going to lock one diff., what are the
> : benefits/disbenefits to only upgrading the front diff.?
> : I would like to hear anyone's opinions or prererably experiences
> : in this area.
If you're looking at a full locker, not just a limited slip, I would
recomend that you upgrade the rear first. A locker in the front will often
try to fight your steering input when it is grabbing for traction,
particularly in short wheelbase rigs with manual steering. You might as well
avoid that aggravation if you are only going to lock one end anyway.
Additionally you seldom need the locker when you are headed down hill, and
when climbing, the rear end locked would be more beneficial.
Of course if you spend a lot of time on the street, and don't want to deal
with the idiocencricies of a locked axle... Put it in the front and drive in
2 wheel drive with the hubs unlocked (which is what you should be doing on
the pavement anyway), you won't even know it's there.
A locker in the rear is not all that much of a problem on pavement in any
case. A little understeer when under power. A little oversteer when you let
off the gas. And it'll let you know if you rear tires aren't evenly aired up
on every upshift. A couple of days to get used to it and no big deal. The
same goes for both ends locked (unless for some reason you drive around in
4x4 all the time on the pavement).
With a locker in the rear of my Cruiser, the only evidence of it's
presence when offroading is increased "Goability". I've witnesses the bruised
knuckles and fingers of a couple of friends who locked up only the front, as
well as listened to them complain about how much the trail took out of them
as they fought the steering. It doesn't seem quite so bad for some reason
when both ends are locked, but I have watched a couple of other (fully
locked) offroad buddies routinely line the vehicle up for a mudhole and then
hang on as it pretty much picked its own line as dictated by the grip that
the tires found.
Slow speed rock crawling or normal trail driving doesn't really bring
this out. Just heavy throttle use getting through mud and snow or up loose
and steep terrain that calls for more force than finese.
I'm not trying to dissuade you from locking both ends (I plan to
myself soon), just passing on some observations and experiences...
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Limited Slip Differentials
From: mindwarped@aol.com (Mindwarped)
Date: 8 Jul 1996 13:10:35 -0400
ok, heres an easy way that dont depend on markings, and works both front
and rear.
Take a jack and lift the whole end of the truck in the air, so both
tires are off the ground. Use jackstands to be safe, especially on a
heavy truck like that.
then have another person hold one of the tires with the tranny in neutral.
Spin the other tire and see what happens to the one that is being held.
if it either does nothing or spins in the opposite direction(if friend
aint holding it) then its an Open diff.
If it tries to spin the same way, then its a limited slip or locker.
then it takes more effort to tell between the two. Basically a limited
slip will eventually, if held strong enough, will slip whereas a locker
will probably still move both tires, and if it does give, will move really
jerky and make a clunk between stops in it
The One
THe Only
THANK GOD
MINDWARPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Toyota pickup rear diff sugestions
From: rmarsh@plains.nodak.edu (Ronald Marsh)
Date: 12 Jul 1996 16:59:17 GMT
The time has come to replace the rear diff. on my 1980 4x4 truck. I have
been considering a locking or limited slip type. Does anybody out there
have any recommendations for this truck?
Thanks
P.S. I am mostly concerned with snow/ice traction.
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Toyota pickup rear diff sugestions
From: ryna10@email.sps.mot.com (Jay Kopycinski)
Date: 12 Jul 1996 20:30:47 GMT
In article <4s6095$2v8@daily-planet.nodak.edu>, rmarsh@plains.nodak.edu
(Ronald Marsh) wrote:
> The time has come to replace the rear diff. on my 1980 4x4 truck. I have
> been considering a locking or limited slip type. Does anybody out there
> have any recommendations for this truck?
>
> Thanks
>
> P.S. I am mostly concerned with snow/ice traction.
I'd suggest an ARB or Downey LSD, but then again I
have one of each too.
-----------------------------------------------
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
Arizona Lo-Rangers ASA4WDC UFWDA
Fun Country Fourwheelers SWFWDA TLCA
-----------------------------------------------
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Toyota pickup rear diff sugestions
From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink)
Date: 14 Jul 1996 07:16:52 GMT
In article <4s6095$2v8@daily-planet.nodak.edu>,
rmarsh@plains.nodak.edu (Ronald Marsh) wrote:
>The time has come to replace the rear diff. on my 1980 4x4 truck. I have
>been considering a locking or limited slip type. Does anybody out there
>have any recommendations for this truck?
>
>Thanks
>
>P.S. I am mostly concerned with snow/ice traction.
You lucky guy: there is a TrueTrac, a gear driven LSD, available for your 8"
rear axle.
If you want to know how a gear driven LSD is different from others:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/main_4x4.htm
This is the only gear driven LSD available for Toyota 4x4's, albeit the 8"
also fits the front axle of recent (1990-) TLC's.
Not so for the 9" TLC rear axle....:-((((
Bye,
W.J. Markerink
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Lockers
From: dont@email.me (Erick)
Date: 13 Mar 1996 15:34:02 -0700
On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:51:42 LOCAL, Sean.T.Potter@tek.com
(Sean.T.Potter) wrote:
>In article <4h56lu$4kl@news.iag.net> morris@iag.net (morris) writes:
>
>>Looking to put a locker in a Toyota rearend (V6) and looking for comparisons
>>or experiences driving the different lockers available. Thanks in advance.
>
>I ran a Lock-Right in the back of my '94 Toy until I sold it a week ago (the
>whole truck). The lock-right worked great and did everything it was supposed
>to do, but I still wondered if a Detroit would have been a better choice. The
>lock-right was simple to put in (I'd never even seen the inside of a diff
>before) and should take about 3 hours. The 3rd member setup in the Toys makes
>it a snap to set up everything, just FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS and do all the
>little hints like marking everything so you won't have to pull it apart again.
> After it was in, it worked great. It releases in corners (most of the time,
>kinda depends on road conditions and how much weight is in the back) but
>sometimes would "clunk" really loud and literally bounce the back of the truck
>a few inches sideways when it locked up again. It definitely acted like a
>locker though, it would go great in the sand and in mud (phenomenal
>difference) but when the roads were icy, it went sideways pretty easily. I
>never really drove on open packed snow, it was either ice or fresh powder or
>deep ruts - it did great in the last two but like I said, going straight on
>ice in 2wd meant not accelerating or letting off the gas abruptly. I liked
>the lock right except the "clunk / bounce" thing it did occasionally. It was
>a good locker for the money ($329 through Central, about the lowest I found).
>I traded it in on an '89 F250, which has open diffs but not for long. Once
>you've had a locker, it's tough to go back to open diffs. Will I put another
>lock-right in my Ford? I doubt it, I'll probably go with a Detroit because I
>didn't like the clunk / bounce, and the Detroits look stouter than a couple of
>dog-gears that comprise the Lock-Right.
>
>Anyone else have any other info on Detroits I should know before I put one in
>my Ford? Will it behave the same? My friend's RamCharger with a
>Detroit-locked Dana 60 in the rear doesn't do the clunk / bounce thing, and
>neither does my friend's '70 Chevy K-20.
>
>Sean
>'89 Ford F250 460 5-speed
>'90 Yamaha(mmer) Banshee
>'93 CR 250
>plus 3 sleds, 2 jet skis, and a ski boat.
I own an 82 Toy with a detroit locker and 5.29 gears. I am incredibly
happy with the detroit. The clunk/bounce is next to none because of
the "soft locker" detroit now makes, which is what I have. It
disengages on turns, provides more traction than I thought I could
get, It is outstanding.
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: Lockers
From: jsteele@azstarnet.com (Jerry Steele)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:39:13 LOCAL
I've run Detroits since 1983. Let me see, I've owned 4 Detroit Lockers and one
Lock-Right.
Lock-Rights are good, but if I have a vehicle that accepts either one, I will
use the Detroit.
I'm currently building two more Jeeps with Detroits front and rear.
End of story.
========
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:51:41 -0700
From: Erick
Subject: ARB vs. Detroit lockers
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
I was reading through an old listing that i forgot to read and noticed a
discussion on Lockers. I have a Detroit Soflocker and it is extremely
quiet. (I have never heard it clicking)
Ok here is what it does:
- --it will unlock in turns when i let off the gas
- --when i am turning from a stop, if i give it mild gas, it will unlock
in the turn.
If i give it too much gas, (about 2500rpms?), it locks up in turns...
so my question is this. does it lock under a certain amount of torque
on the pinion gear or what? cause i can gas it and it will axle hop
it's a$$ off in a turn, and the inside rear tire barks like a dog.
when it does this is it locking up or is the inside tire getting traction
without bearing the weight?
Erick
____________________________
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:25:53 +0000
From: "Mike Graham"
Subject: ARB vs. Detroit lockers
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
> so my question is this. does it lock under a certain amount of torque
> on the pinion gear or what?
No, it's not a torque-sensing device. Others are, it's not. What
it does is simply detect when one wheel is moving *faster* than the
other (it's a speed-sensing Traction Adding Device (TAD)) and switch
torque appropriately. In a turn, the outside wheel always overruns
the inside (unless you are fishtailing on loose surface or something,
and the wheels are moving much faster than the road) so the inside
wheel is pretty much *always* the driven wheel on a turn. As you
suspected, since the inside wheel doesn't have the weight on it, the
traction in a turn is *lessened* by a Detroit. The Detroit was
really, in my opinion, developed for drag racing muscle cars, where
you go in a straight line only. It was the toughness of the Detroit
that made it popular on offroad rigs, not the handling
characteristics.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:39:26 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: posts
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
I'm the owner of an '81 4x4 pickup (solid axle). I'm putting in new gears
and traction aids, and have two questions:
Gearing: stock tires were 28"; now I have Bridgestone Dueler A/T's on it
33"x12.5" (they're actually 32"). Truck weighs 3200 lbs. with a full tank,
and I haul a motorcycle trailer with a total weight of 900 lbs. Motor is
bone-stock, healthy, carbureted, 22R. I live at sea level but often travel
to 7-8000'. My gear choices are 4.88's or 5.29's (4.10 is stock). I use the
truck off-road from Baja to Oregon, especially rock-crawling in the
Sierras, and in Mojave/Nevada.
Downey sez use a 4.88; I can get good freeway mileage and good top speed of
close to 100 mph (not that I would want to go that fast). They say 5.29 is
about 12-13% shorter than stock, taking tire size into consideration, and
would limit highway speed and also be more prone to breakage than 4.88's.
Northwest sez use a 5.29; I'll appreciate the lower gear when towing and at
high altitudes, and that there should be "no problem" with fragility and
breakage.
I'm on the fence here; on one hand, 5.29 seems too low, but I don't want to
spend a load of dough at a gear shop putting all that in and find out that
4.88's still make the truck as bog-slow as it currently is! Anyone with
firsthand experience here?
Traction aids: Currently both pumpkins are open and unacceptable. Truck
gets a lot of highway miles but gets seriously wheeled all the time. Downey
sez use a Lock-Rite rear, open front. They say the Detroit Softlocker has
been taken off the market because of patent infringement on Lock-Rite, and
that I could get one "under the counter" for $175 with no documentation or
support. Northwest sez use a Detroit Softlocker rear, a Detroit Truetrac
front, and I can go anywhere I want and get back out again. I'm inclined to
go with the Detroit Softlocker/Truetrac combo, but would like to know from
anyone with firsthand experience. Also, anyone have hard evidence on the
Lock-Rite/SoftLocker controversy?
I'm relying mostly Downey and Northwest because local shops are about 99%
Chevy/Ford.
Also, where does Toyota get off raising the MSRP on FJ-80's $11,000 in one
model year? I went to buy one a couple of years ago, but found the base
price went from $26k in '92 to $37k in '93! Is it the influx of yuppie
moms?
L8R,
Nick
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 23:47:20 +0000
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
Subject: Light Truck Diffs (and more)
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
On 8 Oct 96 at 15:00, Stuart Banks wrote:
> To answer your question yes the third member can easily be dropped out of
> both the front and rear axles, no magic required. The gear ratios must be
> the same front and back.
> Now to ask a question, last week I stripped the ring and pinion in my rear
> diff, (84 4Runner) I've since swapped in a spare 3rd member and am back on
> the road so now I can take my time in rebuilding my 3rd member. My plan is
> to go to 4.88:1 (I now have the stock 4.11:1 and 31X10.5 BFG MTs) and move
> my LA locker(that was in the back) to the front and put either a Detroit
> Soft Locker or a Detroit True-Track in the rear. So the question is how
> does the Detroit SL compare to the LA in overall On-Road drivability and
> how does the True-Track perform Off-Road, in other words is the True-Track
> an "aggressive" limited slip.
The TrueTrac is not an aggressive unit; being a gear driven LSD, it
is a beauty in disguise. The gear driven species is the only one that
will allow you to go through a steep & narrow icy corner under
throttle, without inducing slip (by binding both wheels together,
like not only auto and manual lockers do, but friction LSD's under
throttle as well) or requiring slip to lock up (auto lockers, visco
units). An gear driven LSD is the only one that will always allow a
certain % of rotational difference in corners, without needing slip
to operate.
They are comparable with the Torsen units as used Audi Quattro's,
Hummers and the Toyota Megacruiser.
For the tough stuff, ie airborn wheel situations, you can apply the
brakes to get close to locker like performance. The same trick
doesn't work nearly as good with friction LSD's....
If you want to learn more about these Traction Adding Devices in
general, see the TAD-FAQ on my homepage:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/main_4x4.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:46:13 -0500
From: "Jay Kopycinski-RYNA10"
Subject: Re- Light Truck Diffs...
To: "wsmuir@islandnet.com%azbcsm1" ,
Subject: Time: 8:27 AM
OFFICE MEMO Re: Light Truck Diffs... Date: 10/8/96
>Here are my questions:
>Are the diffs front and back the same apart from the ratios?
On live axle trucks, the front and rear third members are interchangeable.
Ratios should also be the same.
>Is the only artform involved getting the adjustment of the pinion and ring
correct?
You need to tighten the pinion and bearings correctly as well as setting the
proper pinion depth. Then you will need a dial indicator to set the backlash
of the ring gear (ring to pinion play).
>Can I simply remove the 3rd members and take them down to the tranny shop with
>new ring and pinions and have them to the magic and just bring them back and
>throw them in?
Yes, this will save you a good number of bucks.
>He did a buick rear-end that didn't last very long. He mentioned something
>about dye contact patterns between pinion and ring that are supposed to tell
>you if the thing is set up properly. This part I will take to the shop.
Once the gears are all in (pinion depth and backlash set) you smear some
dye (looks kinda like oil paint in a tube) on the gear mating surfaces. You
then spin the pinion flange and check the wear/contact pattern as the
dye gets smeared around the gears. This is a final check to ensure the
pinion depth and backlash are correct.
>Carrier/Member removal.
>
>The gist that I got was that there seem to be 2 kinds of carriers?
>He referred to one of them as a drop out diff. and says they are no-brainer's
>to remove.
Toyotas (like a F**d 9" use what is called a third member. The axles have
no inspection plate. Instead, you remove ten bolts and pull the whole
gear set out of the axle. This is done after the axle shafts have been
removed. Third member setup is done on a bench.
>The other one involved a rather elaborate procedure of either spreading or
>compressing parts that get left in the axle housing in order to remove
>the carrier. With the carrier re-seated, the process is reversed and then
fine >adjustment is required.
Other axles have no third member, so setup is done in the axle housing itself.
If the axle is on the truck, it means you have to work under the truck while
setting it up......not fun.
Toyota third members use threaded adjuster nuts on each side of the differential
carrier to adjust the bearing preload and backlash. Most other axles have no
such nuts, so the case must be spread and the carrier installed slightly
under tension using spacer shims.
Third member housings were used a lot in some '50s Chevy cars.
>Oh, and for all you TLC owners going through front end conversions,
>please be kind and ask the Truck owner for permission before removing
>birfields etc... B) Kinda like being a little lower on the food chain.
I don't know.......it is our parts they want.
Hope this helps.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:25:40 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron)
Subject: Light Truck Diffs
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
> Detroit SL compare to the LA in overall On-Road drivability and
>how does the True-Track perform Off-Road, in other words is the True-Track
>an "aggressive" limited slip.
What I have been told by friends who drive dual [automatic] lockered vehicles:
- -Detroits drive on-road better than lock-Rights, they ratchet less and are
a little smoother due to a different design in the camming action that
releases the dog clutches.
- -Detroits are stronger than Lock-Rights for serious off-roading.
- -The Soft Locker is "awesome" [and quite quiet compared to the regular Detroit].
- -The Lock-Right is really good for the budget 'wheeler. Some differentials
seem to have more grief than others. The Toyotas I know of have been
reasonably trouble-free.
From my own personal experience, mainly from observing the people I 'wheel with:
- -1 locker is equal to 2 LSDs or two True-Tracks.
- -In the really nasty loose stuff lockers are way better than LSDs or
True-Tracks.
- -LSDs *might* be a little teency bit better in the snow as far as driver
control of the vehicle is concerned. If the LSD is doing what it's supposed
to be doing then it should be similar to a locker in the snow.
Personal opinions etc...
- -I have lockers and would *never* get LSDs.
- -My lockered friends would never trade their lockers for LSDs.
- -Another friend insists that T-Ts are great off-road, she says this while I
am pulling a J--p up a hill she couldn't even drive up....Uh, she drives a
Wrangler (is that a bad word too?). [maybe that was the reason she couldn't
make it up...?!]
The reality of it:
- -See what others in your area are doing.
- -Ask *lots* of questions.
- -Do what you can afford.
- -If you think that you are going to save money by being "cheap" about
something it will end up costing you much, much more.
The T-T is not an LSD but a torque-sensing proportioning diff. Basically it
works on the principle that a worm gear can drive a spur gear and not the
other way around. They "drive" quite differently compared to an LSD.
See WJM's Homepage for some more details.
jbarron@uvic.ca
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:32:16 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron)
Subject: Lockright...in a big toy
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
Jonathon;
A few words to the wise regarding Lock-Rights and Easy Lockers:
These types of lockers are made for light to medium duty 4wheeling. They
are limited in strength by their design and the strength of the stock
differential carrier. They have a different method of disengagment than the
Detroit which causes the dog teeth to actually rub together lightly during
cornering. The Detroit uses a camming action to disengage the dog teeth and
they don't rub on each other during disengagement... The Detroit has it's
own carrier and is very strong. The Lock-Rights (and clones) don't need
very much damage to the dog teeth before they give up the ghost,
fortunately the Toyota applications seem to work very well. (can't say the
same for Jeep)
> Assuming that I can get one of these for, say
>around 200 bucks, how easy are they to install in a toy p/u rear end? Is
>this something that could be done in an afternoon??
The installation is very simple and could be done in a few hours. I would
highly recommend that you check the bearings, wear pattern of the gears and
replace the pinion seal while you are in there. Other parts you will need
are a crush collar, a housing gasket and new oil. Don't just use silicone
to seal the axle housing/diff housing as the gasket sets a tolerance too
(as do a lot of gaskets) and the gaskets are cheap. Don't be too cheap
about installation or it will end up costing you a lot more in long term.
If you are planning on removing the Lock-Right each season (which I doubt
you will do more than once or twice) you are looking at about 2-3 hours
each time and about $25-30.
> will be going in a toy p/u, with about 8-9" of lift,
>and 36" swampers...and winters here can be very icy. So, what I was
>considering, was to run the locker in the summer, and then just run it
>open in the winter...assuming that the changeover could be done
>realatively easily and quickly.
Okay, now for the real glue: The L-R and clones are not made for this size
of tire (36" Swampers), and the stock ring and pinion strength will be
marginal. AFAIK these parts (the lockers) are capable up to about 32-33
inch rubber before you will have serious reliability problems. Personal
experience also tells me that you should be carefully watching the strength
of parts with tires over 33" with both the front Birfields and the
lock-Right/carrier combo. You should be running at least 5.29 gears to
maintian your ratios for street driving. 4.88s will simply not cut it.
For the type of driving you are taliking about it is not a problem to keep
a locker in all the time --But-- **you must get used to driving it** and
if you let someone else drive they shoud be experienced driving with a
locker both in good and bad weather. Lockers are more predicatble in the
snow and ice than LSDs, forunately. --Take the time neceasary to learn the
peculiarities of driving with a locker--
If you are **really** wanting to re&re the locker for each change in season
then you should be considering the ARB or wait and see what the Command
Locker will be like. Please note that the Command Locker re-uses the stock
carrier and that limits its strength.
The detroit locker is by far the best choice for this application if you
want an automatic locker. If you want a seasonal locker then get the ARB as
you can turn it on and off. These replacement diffs are VERY strong.
...You really do get what you pay for!! If you are really concerned about
saving $10 then you are buying the locker for all the wrong reasons. If you
have to stick to the Lock-Right or Easy-Locker then you should be very sure
about the limitations that each has in their warranty policies. It sounds
like the Detroit or ARB are what you should really be considering. The
money spent now will save you money later.
j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 00:17:09 +0000
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
Subject: Lockright...in a big toy
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
On 5 Nov 96 at 11:32, John Barron wrote:
> For the type of driving you are taliking about it is not a problem to keep
> a locker in all the time --But-- **you must get used to driving it** and
> if you let someone else drive they shoud be experienced driving with a
> locker both in good and bad weather. Lockers are more predicatble in the
> snow and ice than LSDs, forunately.
Mmm....either there's 1) a typo in the last sentence, or 2) this is a
strong personal opinion, or 3) you are referring to a Eaton/GM Gov-Lock.
Most people rate friction based LSD's (Auburn/PowerBrute as the most
common variety) as more predictable in snow & ice than full auto
lockers (which I tend to call the Eaton as well).
- --
Bye,
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:46:23 -0800
From: jhassi@foothill.net (Jim Hassi)
Subject: Lockright...in a big toy
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
John Barron wrote:
>>Okay, now for the real glue: The L-R and clones are not made for this size
of tire (36" Swampers), and the stock ring and pinion strength will be
marginal. AFAIK these parts (the lockers) are capable up to about 32-33
inch rubber before you will have serious reliability problems. Personal
experience also tells me that you should be carefully watching the strength
of parts with tires over 33" with both the front Birfields and the
lock-Right/carrier combo. You should be running at least 5.29 gears to
maintian your ratios for street driving. 4.88s will simply not cut it.
<<
John-
I realize that you were talking mainlyaout minis. In terms ofCruiser axles,
I disagree-
Most of the guys in our club as well as the two other clubs that I see
(Marauders, Toys on the Rocks) run BFG MT 35's and a few 36 or 38 swampers.
Very few if any that I am aware of are running more than the stock 4:10
gears in the axles (though most trannys are non US or sm 420/465). While I
have seen Birfields go (always in reverse with wheels cranked - myself, I
have my stops all the way out) and have seen one pinion go (it was a front
3rd member from a cruiser used as a tractor run in the rear also in
reverse), I think that the stock axles are up to the task.
As for minis, the front axles and Birfields are stouter than many Cruiser
setups.
I do not disagree about the Lock Rites. They do not seem to last in the
rigs that I have seen them in. For now, I choose Auburns and wil probably
put a Command locker in the rear when they are proven. BTW the Auburns are
EXCELLENT in snow on the roads. Offroad in deep snow, the guys with ARBs
kick my butt, but otherwise I like the Auburns (or Moroso) LSD. (Dude I'm
trippin!)
Just my $0.02 (USD) ;)
Jim
'71 FJ-40 (V8 350,spring over,flip'd, discs, PS,SM465, Auburns, 35" BFG/MT)
'85 FJ-60
Member TLCA, Toyotally Awesome Cruisers
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:18:05 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron)
Subject: Lockright...in a big toy (LSDs in snow)
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>From: Willem-Jan Markerink
>Subject: Lockright...in a big toy
>
>On 5 Nov 96 at 11:32, John Barron wrote:
>
>> For the type of driving you are taliking about it is not a problem to keep
>> a locker in all the time --But-- **you must get used to driving it** and
>> if you let someone else drive they shoud be experienced driving with a
>> locker both in good and bad weather. Lockers are more predicatble in the
>> snow and ice than LSDs, forunately.
>
>Mmm....either there's 1) a typo in the last sentence, or 2) this is a
>strong personal opinion, or 3) you are referring to a Eaton/GM
>Gov-Lock.
>Most people rate friction based LSD's (Auburn/PowerBrute as the most
>common variety) as more predictable in snow & ice than full auto
>lockers (which I tend to call the Eaton as well).
>
No, there's no typo, even though my typing is usually full of them. My
opinion is formed from my own experience and from the opinions and the
experiences of others.
The reason for what I say is thus: A locker has a constant, or pretty
nearly constant, force required to unlock the diff to allow differentiation
to take place. An LSD on the other hand does not. There are variables that
act on an LSD that cause differing levels of clutch activity and holding
power...such as temperature, oil type and lubricity, wear of the clutches
etc... The locker therefore has a much more preditable and consistant
pattern of maintaining traction in lousy situations like snow and ice. The
LSD, if it's working as designed, should act as a locker (or a spool in a
tight LSD) for all intent and purpose in very slick situations. Snow and
ice are very slick situations...this is where an LSD will basically
remained "locked"....
So what's the difference then? Well the difference lies in the fact that an
LSD never really acts the way it should and it will apply differing amounts
of traction/drive to each wheel depending on the conditions and the wear,
quality and type of LSD etc... This differing amount of traction at each
wheel makes things a little less predictable... SO driving with a locker,
in my humble opinion, is better in "bad" conditions than an LSD because you
can be quite sure about the traction that you are getting at each wheel.
I would like to stress that one must practice driving with any type of
traction adding diff in "bad" conditions as it *will* change the way you
and your vehicle will respond/react.
Regarding the Eaton (Gov-Lock): This is not really a very good product for
off-road use as it has a number small pieces contained within its mechanism
that can be problematic. The Gov-Locker also has the habit of shocking the
drivetrain during the locking-up process...this can cause the "locker" to
explode (a really amazing sight so I am told... all those little pieces...)
or an axle to twist a spline etc... It has a number of other draw-backs and
a few advantages but this is not the place to discuss it.
j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:49:17 -0800
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: TRD
To: TLCAL@TLCA.ORG
I wrote :
>> BTW, if your truck is a daily driver, as well as your toy, I recommend
>> going with a TRD limited slip, rather than a locker.
Willem-Jan Markerink replied :
>Okay, I'll bit again: what is a TRD?
TRD is a company called Toyota Racing Development (TRD) that specializes
in desert racing and pre-running type stuff. The have a limited slip unit
that has steel clutches (lasts a long time) and great traction. The guy
who installed it (for $600) suggested to put in 85-140 straight gear lube
and to add posi-additive only if it chatters too much ( I haven't added
it yet, since I wanted maximum traction and my 17 year-old daughter drives
the 4Runner a lot, and doesn't even feel it back there). They are only
made for mini's and 4Runners, AFAIK.
I love it. I am open in front, and have done Rubicon, Dusy and Barrett
Lake trails, without getting stuck. (Did have to get strapped in Fordyce,
though, mostly due to drive error) . I had a Detroit on my '85 pickmeup,
and I don't feel that I have lost much, traction-wise. The 4Runner is my
daily driver, so I love the way it drives on the road, and in parking lots,
I can't tell its there except for a soft vibration on turns occasionally.
TRD doesn't seem to advertise, but most differential/4wd shops seem to know
about them.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:27:29 -0500
From: Brad DeVries
Subject: TRD (was "Welcome Aboard Cory")
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>On 7 Nov 96 at 19:02, Rick Murray wrote:
>
>> BTW, if your truck is a daily driver, as well as your toy, I recommend
>> going with a TRD limited slip, rather than a locker. More expensive
>> than Lockrite, cheaper than ARB, yet very durable, with near-locker
>> traction. Can't tell its there while on the highway, and much easier
>> on the axles and u-joints, as well.
And Willem-Jan replied:
>Okay, I'll bit again: what is a TRD?
>
I don't know if it's the same one, but the only TRD I know is "Toyota Racing
Development," a Toyota division that sells performance upgrades for their
products. I got their catalog looking for some exhaust and suspension
upgrades for '83 Supra (like I have money for that after getting this
Cruiser on the road, HA!), and was very disappointed to find nothing at all
for the older Toyota Supras. They do sell headers and a few other products
for the 22R, 22RE and the V-6 motors, but the only product in the whole
catalog I could use on either of my Toys was a TRD *Locker* (not an LSD)
that would run on older TLCs and mini trucks. Which begs the question; who
makes this locker for Toyota/TRD???
BRAD DeVRIES, TLCA #3704, Capital Land Cruiser Chapter
"TOYOTA LAND CRUISER: Why get lost in the crowd, when there are so many more
interesting places to do it?"
'73 FJ40.........'83 Supra.........'77 Richard Sachs
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:52:00 -0500
From: Brad DeVries
Subject: TRD (was "Welcome Aboard Cory")
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
At 11:39 PM 11/11/96 +0000, Willem-Jan replied to my fumbling attempts to
describe from memory the locker sold by TRD:
>
>Don't care who makes it, I want to know how it works!
>Can't figure out what they mean with *older* TLC's and minitrucks.
"They" didn't mean anything -- I was trying to recall just what model years
the catalog listed; since I knew they covered my model year (1973), I didn't
notice much beyond that. I'm not at all familiar with the 80-series
differential, since my attention starts to wander when the conversation
starts to head past about 1980...
>Either it fits all TLC's, *or* minitrucks, but never at the same
>time.
>
Unless, of course, those crafty folks at TRD make (or buy) different models
for different applications. Which they do. I'm looking at my TRD catalog,
and you will shortly know absolutely everything I do about the TRD Locker...
The catalog copy reads: "LOCK IT UP. TRD's automatic 'Positive Locking'
differential gives you the most traction possible, while still providing the
turning ease of vehicles with standard differentials. And because they're
fully automatic, you can drive on-road or off road without the noisy, harsh
operation of other 'lockers.' Precision machining and high strength steel
make them rugged and dependable. And installation is easy. No set up,
special tools or calibration is required because the ring and pinion gears
are unaffected." And the fine print reads: "Note: Intended primarily for
off-road use. When not locked, you may hear a clicking sound while cornering."
The picture in the TRD catalog looks just like an E-Z Locker (looks like the
same design, apparently the same number of pieces, uses the existing carrier
), although I don't have any way to know if they actually are the same. The
description of their operation and installation would fit the E-Z Locker too.
The applications listed in the catalog (all rear axle) are as follows:
7.8" Dia. Ring Gear w/ 2 pinion carrier
2WD 1969-1995 $399
4WD 1979-1995 $399
7.8" Dia. Ring Gear w/ 4 pinion carrier
V-6 & 1986-1995 $338
Turbo 4 Cyl.
7.5" Dia. Ring Gear w/ 2 pinion carrier
1/2 Ton, 5-Lug 1969-1995 $399
Land Cruiser 1969-1995 $418
So now you know all I know about the TRD Locker.
Cheers,
BRAD DeVRIES, TLCA #3704/Capital Land Cruiser Chapter
'73 FJ40, '83 Supra, '77 Richard Sachs
"TOYOTA LAND CRUISER -- Your world just got a whole lot bigger."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 14:07:11 +0000
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
Subject: EZ-Locker or LockRight
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
On 4 Dec 96 at 0:30, Dave Burdette wrote:
> I'm getting ready to put a locker in the rear of my 88 Toyota V6 4x4
> Pickup (8"diff). I am looking at either a Detroit EZ-Locker or a LockRight.
> The truck is a daily-driver and is used off-road 2-3 times a month. 31"BFG's
> now, maybe 33" later.
>
> I'm interested in real world experiences with these lockers. Noise,
> drivability, durability and so on.
Do you ever see snow and ice onroad?
If so, stay away from them, and buy a TrueTrac or Auburn, or fork out
the $$$$ for an ARB. You can also wait for the electric Command
Locker, but a TLC application is first in line, with an ETA of
summer 97.
- --
Bye,
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 10:07:25 -0800
From: Paul Whitaker
Subject: Lockers for Toy pickups
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 00:30:24 -0800
>From: Dave Burdette
>Subject: EZ-Locker or LockRight
>To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
>I'm getting ready to put a locker in the rear of my 88 Toyota
>V6 4x4 >Pickup (8"diff). I am looking at either a Detroit EZ-Locker
>or a /.LockRight.
>The truck is a daily-driver and is used off-road 2-3 times a month. 31"BFG's
>now, maybe 33" later.
>
> I'm interested in real world experiences with these lockers. Noise,
>drivability, durability and so on.
>
>Thanks.
I just so haapened to have a detroit locker installed in the back of my
88 toyota v-6 yesterday. It is pretty nice. Takes a little getting
used to. It is also my daily driver. Suprisingly quiet. I had a
chance to take to some spots over in half moon bay, california last
night. The locker WORKS I was going through ditches and boulders that
I could have never made it through without one. I also had a chance to
test it in some mud. We were travleing along a dirt lot trying to get
back on the highway when we landed up in a marsh, my tires were quickly
sinking, I just reversed slowly out, no problem. It's a little weird it
dosn't really work like a posi-traction device(I have a mustang with an
auburn in it runs 12's@115) and I have found the way to whip donuts and
such is to first start out going straight then once it's locked up whip
it and it will stay locked otherwise it will just unlock as you counter
steer. But so far so good. Definately get one. Oh and I only have
30" all terrains.
Paul
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 00:59:08 +0000
>From: Willem-Jan Markerink
>Subject: EZ Locker or Lockrite
>To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
>On 5 Dec 96 at 7:26, Whatley,Mark wrote:
>
>> > I'm interested in real world experiences with these lockers. Noise,
>> > > drivability, durability and so on.
>> >
>> > Do you ever see snow and ice onroad?
>> > If so, stay away from them, and buy a TrueTrac or Auburn, or fork out
>> > the $$$$ for an ARB. You can also wait for the electric Command
>> > Locker, but a TLC application is first in line, with an ETA of
>> > summer 97.
>>
>>
>>
>> I get SO TIRED of seeing this! I drive on snow and ice at least 6
>> months out of every year. Been doing it for years. In the past I ran
>> over 80 miles daily up and down frozen rivers all winter long. In my
>> experience, if the characteristics of a locker cause you problems on
>> icey roads, then you need some serious work on your driving technique
>> anyway. If you have driven with a locker for more than a day or two, IT
>> SIMPLY ISN"T A PROBLEM. I have zero complaints about the behavior of me
>> Lockright on slick surfaces.
>
>Sorry Mark, but any device that drives the inside tire in a corner is
>not what I call predictable. Your positive opinion is snowed under
>by dozens of negative ones. And not only on performance, but also on
>life expectancy. The Detroit only stands up to the latter. Not
>surprisingly for a device that originates from drag star
>races....these tracks tend to be pretty straight forward....8-))
>
>An Austrian friend recently tried to obtain a TrueTrac for a Hilux,
>but got a LockRight instead. Just for experience, he mounted it
>anyway. I have never heard a man curse like that
>through the phone, and this is from a guy that is an experienced
>desert rat, yet sees snowy and icy Austrian alpine roads 8 months a
>year. Guess what, he tried the Lockright in mid summer....8-))
>He would rather put a gun to his head than drive it in winter....
>
>Ah well, maybe he was spoiled by the Quaife's he mounts in Land
>Rovers....;-))
>
>
>- --
>------------------------------
>Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 10:49:22 -0800
>From: Paul Whitaker
>Subject: Detorit Locker
>To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
>I also agree with Mark William, I just had a detroit installed in my 88
>toy and I have driven on it for 2 day's and it is harmless. Also The
>outside wheel is driven around turns not the inside. You just have to
>learn how to drive with a locker. Let up into turns when it rains and
>you will be fine. I just so happened to have rain the last two day's
>over here in S.F. so I have first hand experiences with it. I also only
>have 30" tires which dosn't help. I do not know about the lockrite but
>the detroit locker is very nice. I have yet to hear it disengage and
>engage. It is just plain quiet. Maybe it was the installer who caused
>the lockrite to be a pian in the @#$. I don;t know.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 22:12:08 +0000
>From: Willem-Jan Markerink
>Subject: Detorit Locker
>To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
>On 6 Dec 96 at 10:49, Paul Whitaker wrote:
>
>> I also agree with Mark William, I just had a detroit installed in my 88
>> toy and I have driven on it for 2 day's and it is harmless. Also The
>> outside wheel is driven around turns not the inside.
>
>That is simply not true. The outside, faster spinning wheel is
>allowed to freewheel, the inside wheel spins at the same rpm as the
>ring gear. I have dragged this to death on the Offroad list, the
>final point was that even under heavy torque, given sufficient grip
>at the inside wheel, the outer wheel will still freewheels.
>The bottom line is: no wheel is allowed to spin faster than the ring
>gear, only slower. This works in both forward and reverse mode
>(about a year ago I caused many headaches on the OR-list, by asking
>how it operated downhill, in case of engine braking. It does, as it
>does in reverse driving.)
>
>
>> You just have to
>> learn how to drive with a locker. Let up into turns when it rains and
>> you will be fine.
>
>I never said it wasn't *effective*. Heck, even a spool is effective.
>I don't question that, I just question the stage where it goes from
>open to lock on pavement. With a driven inside wheel, risk of slip
>increases, and a locked axle in a turn is not something to wave away
>with 'learn how to drive'. That won't help you if you have to
>accellerate *hard* to get on a heavy traffic main road coming from a
>side road. You'll just have to accept that fish tailing has a rather high
>probability in that case. You can't coast through that corner....
>
>> I just so happened to have rain the last two day's
>> over here in S.F. so I have first hand experiences with it. I also only
>> have 30" tires which dosn't help. I do not know about the lockrite but
>> the detroit locker is very nice. I have yet to hear it disengage and
>> engage. It is just plain quiet. Maybe it was the installer who caused
>> the lockrite to be a pian in the @#$. I don;t know.
>
>Seems indeed as if only the Lockright and E-Z Locker are noisy and
>clattering, by rubbing dog clutches together *all the time*, unlike
>the Detroit Locker. Yet the old Detroit locker/NoSpin *was* noisy
>and clunky (not ratcheting/rattling). But nobody cared about that in
>dragstar races....;-))
>
>
>- --
>Bye,
>
>
>[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
>
>------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:14:00 -0800 (PST)
From: fosters@OctoNet.com (nadine foster)
Subject: LockRight lockers
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>David Booth wrote
> I looking for anyone who has or had a Lock-Right in their Toyota 4x4.
>I need your experience and insight before I can make the right choice.
>My 4Runner is my daily driver, but we frequent some of the tough
>trails around Moab, Utah.
I had at one time a Lockrite in my front diff. It worked great. A friend in
our local club had dual Lockrights in his 82 mini truck, they too worked
great. One thing people dont like about them is that they are a bit noisy
especially in a rear diff application. I have since changed the Lockrite for
a Detroit locker. If your budget allows , the Detroits will never let you
down. They are more solid than the other and quieter in opperation.
Wayne Foster "FOZZY" from the Island Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:22:15 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #55
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Juha Sarimaa wrote:
"Whats Next?
* Bigger tyres, want 33's
* Front diff lock
Question? Here in Australia a LockRight for Toy
pickup cost about $1000 Aus unfitted, what do
they cost in the US, where can I order one from
and is this a good idea?"
According to John Barron (LandCruiser list), LockRights are not designed
for tires much larger than 31's. If you ask him, they're fairly useless
with 32" or over tires. When it came time for me to lock up my diffs, I had
been leaning toward what I currently have (see sig), but John convinced me.
I have not regretted it one bit. Also, $1000 AUS is WAY too much money for
a LockRight. Here they run about $270 US. My advice would be to go Detroit
TrueTrac ($370 US) or ARB AirLocker front. I stayed away from ARB's because
I didn't want a compressor and the attendant air lines running around. In
my experience, the more parts, the more things to break. Maybe someone else
on the list can offer up some advice as well.
Today, $100.00 AUS = $75.30 US.
4Wheel Parts in Gardena, CA, USA has a website:
http://4wheelparts.com/4wheel. I've found they have very competitive
prices, and shipping to Oz should not be horribly expensive.
Good luck,
- Nick
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 13:36:19 -0600
From: 4RUNNER4X4 <4RUNNER4X4@prodigy.net>
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #58 LOCK RIGHT NO GO WIHT 33'S
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> ------------------------------
--------------
CHUCK SCHLADENHAUFFEN
I've used LOCKRIGHT on my 85 4RUNNER FOR ABOUT 4 YEARS NOW.
with 33 x 12.20 on 15 x 10 rims and 4.88 gears and they have
never fail me. they just work great. on and off road.
------------------------------
- ----
- ---- I put in a pair of lockrites into my 86 4-runner drove it almost
30k and then sold it. I loved my lockrites ! I never had a bit of
trouble with them or the factory carriers. They were connected to
31x13.5 SS/sx's and 4.56 gears ( the 31's with wheels weighed close to
75 lbs). The lockrite is a good product for medium duty off roading. I
agree that a detroit is a better choice for streingth and durability
reasons but is usualy twice as much and instalation may require
re-seting the pinion spacing.
Eric
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:08:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Mark Byron Carter
Subject: Superbrute posi question
To: Toyota 4x4 list
Does anybody have experience with this positrac unit in the front or rear
of their toy? I have a 93 xtra cab w/ v6 that is my only vehicle so i'm
not sure about putting a detroit locker in the rear-i know they handle
great off road, but i put lots of miles on my truck around town and on
the highway also. I'm particulary interested in what people with a
similar truck might have in theirs for everyday use. I know detroits are
the best offroad-but what is the best all around traction device for on and
off road trucks. My truck is stock and will stay that way (basically).
I've got 31x10.5 w/ 4.56 gears and manual hubs up front. ps does anyone
have experience w/ a true-trac in the front diff and how it handles w/
the hubs locked on paved roads(icy or slick)? I drive in snow and ice on
road and whatever i can get through off road, too.
thanks,
Mark B. Carter
mcarter@unm.edu
------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 97 12:11:12 PST
From: Norman.Goetz@directory.Reed.EDU (Norman Goetz)
Subject: Superbrute posi question
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
- --- You wrote:
Does anybody have experience with this positrac unit in the front or rear
of their toy?
- --- end of quoted material ---
I have a Mitsubshi PU 4X2 with a Gleason Torsen (in the rear) which is
mechanically the same as the TrueTrac. It is recommended for front use, unlike
the Detroit Locker. I think it is superior technology, in that it is always
"engaged" and makes a smooth transition from allowing differential action for
cornering on pavement to shifting torque to the traction wheel in slippery
conditions. This is important for steering control in the front axle, where
lockers' sudden locking action can take control away. Also they don't wear out
and don't require special additives in the lube like clutch type units. On the
other hand, I've considered putting a clutch type in front since it is mostly
not turning, so likely to last the lifetime of the truck in typical North
American usage.
Norman
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:21:01 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Superbrute posi question
WJ Markerink has an excellent website on all the ins and outs of various diffs
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/main_4x4.htm
is a good place to start.
While in principle the Gleason and the TruTrac are the same - in many ways they
are NOT.
However - they all belong to the same class of differentials - torque
proportioning diffs.
Also in the class are
Quaiffe
AFCO (new in Circle Track)
Gleason Torsen (OEM only at this time)
Dyneer TruTrac
Yes - they are in gneral - good diffs; BUT they do NOT lock up 100% like a
Detroit or an ARB (or Wiesimann) will. Thus if you get one wheel in the
air - unless you use the handbrake, you are "stuck".
However - on the plus side
no clutches to wear out
even loading (vs. on/off of the Detroit or ARB)
EWong
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:55:47 -0800
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: Superbrute posi question
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
>but i put lots of miles on my truck around town and on
>the highway also. I'm particulary interested in what people with a
>similar truck might have in theirs for everyday use.
I'm open in the front, but use a TRD posi in the back, and i love it.
Can't tell its there when in normal driving, and it took me over the
Rubicon, Barrett, and Dusy trails without getting stuck. It uses metal
clutches, so it should outlast the truck, and I run regular gear oil
for maximum traction. My rig is also my daily driver.
##################################################################
Rick Murray 84 Toyota 4Runner SR5
( rmurray@gvn.net ) stock 22R motor ; 3" ProComp Lift
Rancho Cordova, Ca. 8" steel rims; 33" BFG M/Ts
www.gvn.net/~rmurray/ 4.88 gears; Marlin TCase #67 ; TRD LSD
##################################################################
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:54:16 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: true-trac in the front diff
To: " - (052)Toy4x4 (a) tlca.org" ,
TLC:
Unfortunately, various work items have cause me to put off the 4.56/TrueTrac
project until the spring - its a daily driver so I cant really afford down time.
Im awaiting Jack Alfords front axle, and looking at a rear axle so I can do the
swapover at my own pace (and have yet MORE spare parts at my parents garage).
[yup - more dollars than sense]
Anyway - with resepct to the truetrac up front
If its not being driven (ie hubs unlocked or hubs locked but still in 2WD) it
should act like an open diff. In fact - all torque sensing diffs act like an
open diff in some ways (such as 1 wheel in the air, or equal traction on both
wheels)
There is an inherent advantage to a torque sensing diff on road in sno/ice -
its benign activation.
An open diff drives the wheel with the least traction - thus on ice, the wheel
tends to "spin" leaving you stuck.
A locker is normally "locked" unless there is a speed difference and the
torque inputs are "low" - then the dog clutches disengage and the wheels
spin at different speeds.
If ice is encountered while negoating a turn, then the dog clutches may
"lock" - and the rear acts like a spool. This on/off nature may surprise
certian drivers and cause sudden fish tails or "end swaps". It is this
unpredictable lockup nature that is IMHO the major reason for branding
Detroit lockers as "dangerous" for on-road sno/ice use. Its not
inherently dangerous - but it DOES require a change in driving technique
compared to an open diff!
A clutch limited slip does almost the same thing, but the lockup is set by
design (aka amount of clutch friction available). The same issues apply
as with the Detroit, but the action is more gradual than the dog gear
engagement.
Torque sensing diffs by nature work differently - they "magically" apply
the max torque to each wheel that can be born by the surface it is on!
Thus if one wheel is on pavement and the other is on polished ice
with standing water - you are just as stuck as you would be with
an open (except forthe brake trick escape).
This "open" nature at the low end of traction makes driving the truck easier
in terms of behavior modification - the rear end will never "lock". Instead
it acts like an open diff.
Once this occurs - you will slow down (lost traction) as you should anyway
given the ice on the roads. Feed the throttle back in - slowly and
you will get whatever traction is available.
It helps to run studded Nokia Hakkapleittiias too :)
EWong
Wishing at times I was a Finn:)
They have such cool names...
---------------------------
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 14:55:01 -0600
From: Steven Benson
Subject: Problem with Detroit Soft-Locker
To: Offroad@off-road.com
Does anyone know why a Detroit Soft-Locker would 'bang' when letting the
clutch out? It's as if the mechanism that was added to make the
Soft-Locker soft has worn out and now there is access backlash in the
locker.
If any of you in the know have an idea of what may be the cause of this
problem please let me know so I can fix the problem. It's as if I were
running a dual-friction clutch, no smooth transition into gear, but I'm
not. The only change has been switching the 3rd member with the
installed 'Bang-Locker' from one truck to the other. Also, I noticed
accessive metal shaving's , very fine but alot, in the fluid when doing
the switch?? Is there a mechanism within the new design soft-locker
which may need to be rebuilt or replaced?
Please help.
______________________________________________
Steven Benson
'85 Toy X-Cab | MNTOYX4 | MN4WDA | TLCA #4835
http://www.off-road.com/~MNTOYX4
mailto:toyx4@winternet.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:10:35 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Problem with Detroit Soft-Locker
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Steven Benson wrote:
"Does anyone know why a Detroit Soft-Locker
would 'bang' when letting the clutch out?
It's as if the mechanism that was added to
make the Soft-Locker soft has worn out and
now there is access backlash in the locker."
Mine has done it since new, 29,000 miles now, no problems yet. The closest
thing I can surmise is that the springs that preload the ratchet are not
engaged fully when you've stopped, either because you were turning a corner
(however slight), or something below.
I would make sure my rear tire sizes and inflations are as closes as
possible; if they are off as little as 1/4" then the rear will lock and
unlock constantly to compensate for different rotation distances. Change
your gear oil; use either a good synthetic or something racers use (I use
SWEPCO 210 80/140). Make sure your U-joints are up to the task. The bang
might also be axle wrap-up (although that's usually more like a 'clunk').
Take 2 aspirin and call me in the morning.
Seriously, it's probably one of these. I have never heard of a Locker going
out.
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:04:47 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: problem with detroit soft locker
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
As far as I know the Detroit Soft Locker and the Powertrax
Lock-Right are basically the same. I bought the Lock Right (back when
they were the LA locker) back then they were made of a substandard
material. I finally started having problems with one of my lockers.
The problem is that they start to "ratchet" a little then continue to
get worse. Before I replaced them my front locker was "ratcheting"
about every ten feet. Do to wear and the soft material. I talked to
the people at powertrax and they were suprised that I had so many miles
on the old locker (LA locker). I replaced them with the updated
Lock-Right so we will see what happends.
The noise you hear is probably normal. Every once in a while (even
being new) my lockers will "bang" when giving it throttle. If your
locker is starting to "ratchet" because of force and you give it
throttle it will bang when it hits the next tooth. If it start to
happen while driving down a straight road and your tire pressure is
normal call Detroit and ask them.
If it has high milage you can actually remove the locker and rotate the
left and right side gears. This will allow each side to use the front
of the teeth that is used in reverse so they should still be fairly
sharp.
Hope this helps.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 22:41:58 -0600 (CST)
From: gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg S. Francis)
Subject: Locker clang
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I have been reading posts about locker clang and pinion bearing runout
clang and now I'm concerned. I recently installed a Detroit Sof-locker and
4.88s in my rear diff. A new pinion bearing was used. When I am stopped
and begin to accelerate, the drive line winds up about a half-turn before
the wheels engage. The Detroit manual states that the locker will have
some slop. To other Sof-locker owners: is my condition normal or do I need
to reexamine the instalation? Thanks for any help.
- -Greg
Greg S. Francis
University of Texas @ Austin
School of Architecture
gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:35:45 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Locker clang
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Greg Francis wrote:
"I recently installed a Detroit Sof-locker and
4.88s in my rear diff. A new pinion bearing was
used. When I am stopped and begin to accelerate,
the drive line winds up about a half-turn before
the wheels engage. The Detroit manual states
that the locker will have some slop. To other
Sof-locker owners: is my condition normal or do
I need to reexamine the instalation?"
I think you're all right. Mine was giving me hellacious axle wrap an
instant after a let out the clutch, but now that I've got my torque rod in
there, I just get lots of wheelspin (on the streets). Imagine, a 16 year
old 22R that can do a burner!
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 06:57:20 -0800
From: Scott Muir
Subject: Truetrac limited slip differentials
To: "'Toy List'"
Sterling,
This is a battle that is sitting in the LandCruiser Archives.
http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toy4x4/toy4x4_digest.html
Or something like that, I don't know it has changed.
Firstly, I don't have one yet, but I think I am foolishly going to track
down an ARB or 2 because "they're neat". Its also its a bit of
procrastination because I could afford something cheaper at the moment.
Anyroad, a friend has a LockRite now. It is quite surprising how well
it handles on the street. (what with all the hype and all)
I think a lot depends on how you drive though.
He has an FJ-40 (stock engine) and 32" M/T BFG's, so he's FORCED to drive
conservatively anyway. If you (could) leadfoot it, I think it wouldn't be
so street friendly. An no, we haven't tried it out in snow yet, which seems
to be the worst of the hype.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:17:38 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Truetrac limited slip differentials
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Sterling Rorden wrote:
"...I substituted another Truetrac for the
Detroit Locker since I am concerned about
the streetability of this vehicle (I
sometimes drive it in the snow and my wife
will drive it in the rain)...How bad is a
locker in the snow or rain? Will the Truetrac
hold up to moderate 4 wheeling? If one wheel
is in the air while crawling will the Truetrac
still apply torque to the other wheel?"
People make out full lockers to be some sort of evil handling demon that
will throw your truck off a cliff at the first opportunity. I've had mine
in for about 30,000 miles now, and other than an occasional "Ka-POW!" sound
(usually while backing up) and increased axle wrap before I put on the
torque bar (now slight wheelslip - mini burner - on polished concrete or
slick asphalt at low speeds), the thing is transparent. I wouldn't even
know it was there, except I almost never use 4 wheel now. It's been to
Tahoe, Oregon, Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, etc., and no problems, nothing
unusual. So full lockers are not the Devil's own street-handling device in
my case.
But when you say, "moderate 4 wheeling," methinks you probably did the
right thing. My better half drives mine all the time (my mom, too,
sometimes) and there's no problem. Of course, Teri has her SCCA license,
and has taken a bunch of race driving schools, but still...
Your TrueTracs are probably the best bet for the kind of driving you say
you do. I know that in Sacto nothing's close; you need to drive wherever
you go. I would imagine that the LSD is probably the most correct answer to
your needs.
The TrueTrac is like any other LSD, except it uses a gear drive instead of
a clutch (similar to a Gleason Torsen). I've got one in the front and like
it, but as I said before, it's not really all that necessary with the
Locker in the rear (maybe if I did more of Jay's and Jack's kind of
wheeling...). I predict that you will be very happy with your setup in the
future.
Now somebody contradict me, please. We must have more opinions on this.
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:22:03 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Detroit Locker
To: Toy 4x4 List , Ryan Comber
Alright! I just picked up my 4Runner from "Rearend Specialties." I had
the Locker installed this morning.
I've only driven it about 15 miles so far (back to work from their
shop). So far I notice the little bit of 'slop' in the driveline
everyone's been talking about. It's not much, just enough to give you a
little bump if you gave it a lot of gas taking off from a stop. (like I
usually do).
The most obvious change I've experience so far, is the trucks desire to
go straight. It's only noticable under 30mph for me. Just takes a bit
more effort on the steering wheel to get it to do what you want. I can
also hear the rear tires biting into the road as I make tight turns.
(Makes me think I'll be wearing these All terrains out sooner than I
thought, Yea!)
The truck behaves exactly the same as if had the open diff. at speeds
above 30mph. I may take an afternoon off this week and try it off road,
we'll see. :)
Scott
- --
*****************************************************
Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
88 4Runner SR5 V6
Santa Clara, CA
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 13:25:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: detroit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> This question is kinda aimed at Scott, (since he just got the Detroit) but
> I'd appreciate other's responces too.
>
> One thing I'm wondering about is how much the slop/ratcheting action in a
> detroit locker effects general driving with a *manual* transmission. Do
> you really notice the extra backlash when shifting. Like say you gas it
> and then let off, does it kinda free-wheel for a second then go 'clunk'?
>
> Some other questions. Ok, imagine you are driving in the following
On a previous truck (87 Samy) I had lock-rights front and rear and every
time I let off the gas (like every shift) the rear of the truck would
shift to the right and when I got back on the gas it would shift back to
the left. Do you notice this or is the Samy just too lite?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 13:57:53 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: detroit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
First off, some who knows, please correct me if I'm wrong. A lot of
this is my best guesses as to what is happening, I've only been driving
on a detroit for two full days now. SW
Jonathan Albrecht wrote:
> One thing I'm wondering about is how much the slop/ratcheting action in a
> detroit locker effects general driving with a *manual* transmission. Do
> you really notice the extra backlash when shifting. Like say you gas it
> and then let off, does it kinda free-wheel for a second then go 'clunk'?
No. The only I do notice a difference when your on the gas and then
suddenly let off (no clutch). You now that you're gonna get a bump not
matter what diff you have. I notice the bump is just a little (I do
mean little) harder due to the 1/4 turn of slop in the driveshaft.
> Let's say you start from a stop and immediatly turn (like from a 4 way
> stop and you want to go right). Let's say your in a hurry, and you really
> gas it off the line and around the corner. What happens?
In fact I asked someone this same question yesterday 'cause I wasn't
sure if mine was behaving normal. I'm a lead foot, but since I got the
locker I've been driving what I consider light while I get used to it.
When I do what you described, my inside wheel slips (probably would if I
had the open diff too), the outside wheel ends up with all the traction,
and sorta drags the inside wheel along. (Sounds like I'm peeling out,
but the wheel is barely going slower than the other)
The answer is that I'm gasing it too much. I need to let off the
throtle and retain traction on the inside wheel.
or
if you don't care about a little bit of noise, stomp on it! The rear
will lock up and you'll be off! There's gonna be a little noise off the
tires as they make the turn at the same speed, but so what. ;) But if
your in a situation that you don't what to make any noise and draw
attention (i.e. police car sitting behind you) you're just gonna have
to take off extra slow.
>
> Next, let's say you approach a 90 degree turn off at 30mph or so, and
> quick downshift into 2nd, and swing around the corner fast/hard. What's
> it do? (I know, I know, this isn't real safe, but sometimes I like to do
> that).
Been there. Done that. Behaves pretty normal. All depends on if the
locker is locked up in the turn or not. If it is, its not like your
gonna crash or anything (well, don't quote me on that, I don't know how
you drive :) ) You're gonna get some tire noise again though cause the
tires are turning around a turn both going the same speed.
> Let's say your are downtown, and trying toparrallel parking on a steep
> hill. Is it any worse than usual? (like it's not hard enough already!)
Should be pretty normal.
>
> If you are trying to accelerate fast on a sharp turning, steep on-ramp,
> how does it react?
This is kinda the same deal as taking off from the stop sign. If you
loose traction on that inside wheel it gonna lock up on you. Then
- -suddenly- the outside wheel is driving. This is why some people
consider lockers dangerous on slick roads. If you got a sudden change
like this on a slick road it could cause you to fish tail.
Lockers aren't dangerous because of this. You just need to realize
you're driving on slick roads with a locker, and need to drive
appropriately. If you're being gentle with the throtle, and not
purposely giving your rear end a chance to slip out from behind you,
then your chances of slipping out are the same as if you were driving
with an open diff.
I've gotta say though, I'm REALLY impressed with the traction I get from
this thing. I took it to a hill last night that I've always had to be
in 4WD to get over, and usually still have some slipping. Well last
night (now that I've got the locker) I tried it in 2WD. Crawled right
over, didn't slip a bit. That got me really excited! I hadn't planned
to take it anywhere this week, but since last night I've just had a bug
to go try it out some more. I'm taking tomorrow afternoon off and
heading to Hollister Hills. Anyone what to go? I'll be there from
about 12:30-sunset.
Hope this answered your questions,
Scott
- --
*****************************************************
Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
88 4Runner SR5 V6
Santa Clara, CA
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:18:56 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: detroit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> On a previous truck (87 Samy) I had lock-rights front and rear and every
> time I let off the gas (like every shift) the rear of the truck would
> shift to the right and when I got back on the gas it would shift back to
> the left. Do you notice this or is the Samy just too lite?
I do notice my 4Runner pulls to the left just a bit when I'm on the
gas. I thought is was my tires (I rotated them the same day as I got
the detroit in). It's not bad though. Maybe the extra weight help me.
Scott
- --
*****************************************************
Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
88 4Runner SR5 V6
Santa Clara, CA
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 22:58:05 -0600 (CST)
From: gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg S. Francis)
Subject: detroit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I have a Detroit Soflocker in my rear diff, so I'll take a crack at a
couple of your questions.
>Some other questions. Ok, imagine you are driving in the following
>situations with a locker/manual tranny. What happens/what's the truck do
>differently:
>
>Let's say you start from a stop and immediatly turn (like from a 4 way
>stop and you want to go right). Let's say your in a hurry, and you really
>gas it off the line and around the corner. What happens?
Inside wheel get all the power and chirps around the corner.
>
>Next, let's say you approach a 90 degree turn off at 30mph or so, and
>quick downshift into 2nd, and swing around the corner fast/hard. What's
>it do? (I know, I know, this isn't real safe, but sometimes I like to do
>that).
If you downshift *before* the corner, probably nothing. If you downshift
*in* the turn, it (locker) will open when you clutch it and reingage
(clunk) when you let out the clutch.
>
>Let's say your are downtown, and trying toparrallel parking on a steep
>hill. Is it any worse than usual? (like it's not hard enough already!)
Not really, the only time it affects this sort of situation is when you
change the direction of your turn while still under power. Torque is what
causes the locker to engage.
>
>If you are trying to accelerate fast on a sharp turning, steep on-ramp,
>how does it react?
Same chirping of the inside tire, should be no loss of control.
Overall, once I got used to mine, I found it to be easy to control. The
principle here is outlined in the manual- adding power while the wheels are
spinning at different rates will cause the locker to engage. You can
actually make an easy turn without adding power (accelerating) and the
locker will behave like an open diff. I was concerned about the effects of
the locker on wet roads, but once I learned to drive w/ it, I found it
presents no problem at all.
Disclaimer- If you do not take above advice, it can bite you in the a$$.
It will spin you off a wet road if you don't respect it.
Hope this helps, and remember this applies to a Soflocker, I hear the older
ones are mor vicious.
- -Greg
Greg S. Francis
University of Texas @ Austin
School of Architecture
gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 23:51:39 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Taco and Detoit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> >p.s. Scott Wilson how is your setup fairing??
> >
> >
I absolutely LOVE it. I took Friday afternoon off went to Hollister
Hills, CA. I had a wonderful time. It was my first chance to visit
Hollister, and I -will- be back. I do have some pictures, they came out
pretty good. I'll scan them in this week and make them availible to all
who want to see them.
I had a chance to make a Cherokee look really silly on one of the
steeper trails with the Detroit. With the locker my 4Runner was to the
top w/o batting an eye, I honestly wasn't sure if the guy in the
Cherokee was going to live through his attempt. He made it near the top
and lost his footing...slid backward about 300ft! Luckily he kept it
sliding straight back and didn't loose it. He did make it on his second
attempt.
Enough babeling, I'll see if I can't do a write-up and stick it on the
web soon. (Maybe by the end of the week).
Anyway, after seeing what the 4Runner is capable of off-road w/the
Detroit I'm more than willing to put up with the thunks and clunks, and
the occasional squeely wheel around a corner. (even though I mostly
drive pavement).
Scott
- --
Scott A. Wilson __o __o __o __o
Santa Clara, CA _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_
swilson@pacbell.net (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_)
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 10:02:19 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Subject: detroit
To: albr9619@uidaho.edu
I have a detrioit in my truck for the last 2 years, so I'll add my $.02 worth
>>>
detroit locker effects general driving with a *manual* transmission. you
really notice the extra backlash when shifting. Like say you gas it
and then let off, does it kinda free-wheel for a second then go 'clunk'?
<<<
Never noticed the backlash when shifting 95% of the time. Once in a while
it does go clunk, but the freewheeling is only momentary, not seconds....
>>>Some other questions. Ok, imagine you are driving in the following
situations with a locker/manual tranny. What happens/what's the truck do
Let's say you start from a stop and immediatly turn (like from a 4 way
stop and you want to go right). Let's say your in a hurry, and you really
gas it off the line and around the corner. What happens?
<<<<<
When a fair throttle was applied, the inside tire breaks loose, and slips
a little. Not a lot of excitement, but a little noticeable, esp. on
sand/gravel... no real handling problems IMHO.
>>Next, let's say you approach a 90 degree turn off at 30mph or so, and
quick downshift into 2nd, and swing around the corner fast/hard. What's
it do?
and...
If you are trying to accelerate fast on a sharp turning, steep on-ramp,
how does it react?
<<<<
If you're out to cause a rear slide, give 'er a lot of throttle and this
would do it... Without the throttle input, you should be as ok as you would
be without a locker.
>>>
Let's say your are downtown, and trying toparrallel parking on a steep
hill. Is it any worse than usual? (like it's not hard enough already!)
<<<
NO change....
The biggest change is in winter driving on a real slick, off-camber
situations... the locker tends to spin BOTH wheels (DUH!), and the
rear slides out from under you. Other than that, I love mine - even
with the occasional clicking / tire hop on a tight turn.
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:15:25 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: detroit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Jonathan Albrecht wrote:
"...how much the slop/ratcheting action in a
detroit locker effects general driving with
a *manual* transmission. Do you really notice
the extra backlash when shifting. Like say you
gas it and then let off, does it kinda
free-wheel for a second then go 'clunk'?"
No.
"...imagine you are driving in the following
situations with a locker/manual tranny. What
happens/what's the truck do differently:
"Let's say you start from a stop and immediatly
turn (like from a 4 way stop and you want to go
right). Let's say your in a hurry, and you really
gas it off the line and around the corner. What
happens?"
Either a little tire spin or wheelhop.
"...let's say you approach a 90 degree turn off
at 30mph or so, and quick downshift into 2nd,
and swing around the corner fast/hard. What's
it do?"
Nothing out of the ordinary. With proper gearing, though, 2nd is a little
tall to be downshifting into at 30.
"...(you) are downtown, and trying to
parrallel parking on a steep hill. Is it any
worse than usual?"
No.
"If you are trying to accelerate fast on a
sharp turning, steep on-ramp, how does it react?"
Just a lot of traction; more wheelbite than before.
Listen, the thing is a lot more transparent than the magazines and other
people would lead you to believe. The biggest difference is off-road, where
you don't really need your front axle except for stuck and almost-stuck
situations. Also, off-road, you notice your rear tires dragging around on
the dirt, because there's not enough friction to unlock the rear.
I like it.
- Nick
_____________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:02:53 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: TruTrac or Detroit Locker
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Chris Geiger wrote:
"In the next two weeks I plan on installing
4:88 gears and lockers front and rear. I
plan to use the TruTrac up front but as
still unsure about the rear. If you have a
Detroit locker in the rear, are you happy?"
Yep.
Bad things about a locker:
- accelerated tire wear
- accelerated u-joint wear
I wouldn't recommend a Locker for cruisin' the streets of IV, but if you do
some meaningful wheeling, then my answer to you would be, "Go for it, my
friend."
- Nick
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: TruTrac or Detroit Locker
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Rosenberger Bud wrote:
> How about just putting a locker in the front axle to eliminate the wear
> issues but still have the locker benefits in 4wd? I have no experience
> with them but I'm all ears on this subject. Bud
That depends upon how often you use 4wd. At home, I probably keep the
hubs locked 7 months out of the year, and I'm in 4wd in about 4 or 5 of
those. A front locker is a bit harder to live with than a rear one (when
in 4wd), and the steering knuckle cv things (birfields) are somewhat of a
week point (or so I've heard).
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:01:33 -0700
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: TRD LSD
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
>Would you recommend this for the front of my IFS truck? I want some kind of
>locker, but not a "full" locker. I still want to be able to use 4WD in the
>ice and snow ( maybe 5 times a year). Any suggestions?
My buddy has the unit in both axles (89 IFS longbed). He really likes it.
I'm open in front, and I can go everywhere he goes. I'm not convinced
that a locker or posi in front is worth the expense. Going up hill, most
of the work is done by the back tires. Going downhill, you don't need
traction, just gearing. He does do better than me in and snow, however.
I'm not sure how it adversely affects steering, probably less than with
a locker.
A part-time locker would be nice for the front, like the electric one we've
been hearing about for so long, that is still not on the market.
I won't make a suggestion here. Its a matter of personal preference.
Another consideration is whether a wife, girl-friend, or in my case, daughter
is going to be driving it. Every time a Detroit BANGs, they'll think they
broke something. The understeering and chirping tires can be un-nerving.
------------------------------
Date: 21 Apr 1997 11:05:10 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: LSD
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 10:40 AM
OFFICE MEMO LSD Date: 4/21/97
James Brink wrote:
>What is the general opinion of the True-Trac, Downey LSD, TRD LSD (if
>its not the same as the LockRight)?
The Downey LSD is a Toshiki-Fuji metallic clutch unit. I think the TRD
unit is the same. I've run mine in the rear of my truck for about 140k miles
and can still chirp the tires cornering if I'm on the throttle. I've been
very pleased with its perfomance.
If I were starting from scratch though, I would probably buy another
ARB for the rear.
I run it with hypoid slip dif fluid and about 1/3 bottle of GM LSD fluid.
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 17:40:38 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: New TRD locker?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Eric Johnson wrote:
>
> Toyota Racing Development is advertising:
>
> "LOCKING DIFFERENTIAL
> For Compact Truck, 4Runner, Land Cruiser
>
> TRD's automatic "positive-locking" rear differential gives you the most
> traction possible while providing the turning ease of vehicles with
> standard differentials. And because they're fully automatic, you can drive
> on-road or off-road without the noisy, harsh operation of other "lockers."
> Precision machining and high strength steel make them rugged and
> dependable. And installation is easy. No set up, special tools or
> calibration is required because the ring and pinion gears are unaffected."
>
> Is this something new or are they just repackaging a lock-rite?
>
> --
> -- ej@blarg.net
It is a LockRight. They don't even take it out of the LockRight box!
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 20:48:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: differentials
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> I have read several messages about differentials, ARB's, lockers, etc.
> Could any explane to me what the basic defference are. I know what
> semi- positive, positive trac and limited slip are.
An open diff uses spider gears.
And arb is like an open diff (uses spiders even), except for when you
lock it, when it turns into a fully locked spool (both wheels must turn
at the same speed regardless). It uses compressed air to lock it
A locker (like Detroit or Lockright) uses a ratchet mechanism. Because
of this, both wheels get 100% of the power, but when you go around a
corner, the outer wheel is allowed to freewheel (due to the ratchet
mechanism). The Detroit softlocker replaces the entire carrier (this is
the strongest design) and is said to have better manners on road. The
Detroit EZ locker and Lockright (AKA LA locker) replaces the gears
inside your stock carrier, and isn't as strong. The EZ locker is a copy
of the lockright design (virtually identical).
A limited slip allows for a certain amount of the power to go to both
wheels (100% to one wheel, and depending upon the design, less to the
other), while still allowing for the inside tire to go slower around
corners. Depending upon the style and type, they allow anywhere from a
little bit of slip to a whole bunch. One friend had one on his CJ that
was so tight that it made the tires chirp around corners. The two most
popular types are ones that use clutches (like auburn) and ones that use
worm gears and stuff (like Detroit True Track). I've heard the true
track works great, but they aren't necessarily as strong as a clutch
unit. The big difference, is the clutch units use clutches, which can
wear out, where as the worm gear types use gears and stuff, which don't
wear out, but I guess could break. I've heard that they are only
designed for 31-33" tall tires (max).
Standard disclaimer: I've only had personal experience with the detroit
(limited expirience), and stock posi's like what came on older chevy's,
so to the best of my knowledge, what I've said is right, but I could be
wrong! (let me know if I am though)
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:52:14 -0500
From: Chris Caldwell
Subject: LockRights
To: 4x4 digest
I have seen several posts on LockRights, but I don't remember any of
them addressing the noise that they generate. Today, I was checking
around to find someone to do the install and one of the mechanics warned
me of the constant and obvious clatter made when cornering. He even told
me of a customer that had his removed due to the noise. He did mention
that this was 1.5 years ago and didn't know if this was still an issue.
My Tacoma is a daily driver so I am concerned whether or not this is
really an issue or not. I do graciously appreciate any opinions on this.
Chris Caldwell
caldwell@vol.com
(95.5 Tacoma Xcab 4x4 V6, TJM Bullbar, K&N, soon a Lock-right)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:19:49 +1000
From: Juha Sarimaa
Subject: LockRight
To: Jack Alford
Chris,
LockRights do make a bit of noise when cornering, its most audible at low
speeds with your windows open. What's really going to bother you is that
solid "bang" you get out of them every now and again. If your that worried
about it find someone that's got one (prehaps one that's for sale ?) and take
their vehicle for a spin. IMHO you get what you pay for, that said I like
mine and am after another for the front.
Juha.
Juhapekka.Sarimaa@Health.gov.au
'85 Hilux, Rear LockRight....
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:15:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gsxrcpl@aol.com
Subject: lock right
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Before I had my shell, I could hardly hear any ratcheting. Only
when turning close to a wall,(like in an apt. complex) Now w/shell the rear
sound tends to echo a bit more. However, every so often the teeth on the
locker don't seat when a turn,gas, slow,stop,weird,combo happens. You
proceed to accelerate, the locker is forced to close, but the teeth are still
not seated together. About 30yards later the locker shifts 2-3mm and all of
a sudden, your locker seats. Well this makes your whole drivetrain skip
about 1/4 a tire rotation and makes a really loud CLUNK. scares you the
first couple times, hey it has not happened to me in a long time, great now
that I said it!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyway after it happens pull your seatcover out
of your butt and enjoy your locker, I called powertrax on this issue and
they said, "Ah, I'ts normal" and explained every thing. c-ya
81 4x longbed:325/60/15 mud t's,488 gears,lockrights frt & rr, 3" downey
springs,bilsteins, and the list goes on. any questions? gsxrcpl@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: 27 May 1997 09:35:39 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Lincoln lockers
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:10 AM
OFFICE MEMO Lincoln lockers Date: 5/27/97
matt877@juno.com (Matthew C Chapin) wrote:
>Here is something I was thinking about I know it is probably not an idea
>that would work but I will toss it out anyway---- If you had welded
>spiders in the rear couldn't you swap in locking hubs in the rear and
>lock only one?
I have seen this done on several J**ps. However, since the Toyota axles
are not full-floating, you cannot put a locking hub on a rear axle......unless
maybe it's a 1 ton full-floater.........
>This seems to me that you would have one drive wheel
(>which you only have one anyway w/ the standard rear diff.) and when a
>locker was needed(off road) you could lock the other essentially giving
>you a locked rear axle.
With an open axle both axles may drive the tires or only one may drive,
or some combination of the two. With the welded spiders and one axle
locked, that one axle will always bear the full torque of from the
driveline.
>Now while I was writing this I realized (I think)
>that the wheel that was locked would still chirp around turns but the
>other would freewheel like normal.
With only one axle locked there would be no chirping.
Interesting thoughts Matthew.........
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: 27 May 1997 09:37:07 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: lincoln lockers
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:11 AM
OFFICE MEMO lincoln lockers Date: 5/27/97
Juha Sarimaa wrote:
>Why can't you leave one hub unlocked until you hit a really rough spot and
>then get out and lock the other ?
This will work, you just have to be careful not to send to much torque
to that one locked axle.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: 27 May 1997 09:24:03 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: lincoln lockers
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:06 AM
OFFICE MEMO lincoln lockers Date: 5/27/97
loki@crestedbutte.net wrote:
>howdy folks, my local junkyard has 85 4runner w/ 4.3:1 diffs. I was
>think that I could pull off a real low budget mod by just swapping both
>axles or 3rd members,and doing a little welding to the front
>spidergears. I could leave the rears open till I can afford an
>ez-locker. It seems like the licoln locker would perform like an arb,
>only instead of flipping a switch you get out and lock/unlock the hubs.
This can be done, but you will have to unlock to steer. Nickel content
welding rod may be a good idea as the gear carrier is cast iron.
>When you guys with arbs go wheelin are you consantly unlocking or do you
>leave them engaged for the hole trail ride?
I lock in to complete an obstacle and then unlock once I'm over.
There are also times I cannot use my ARB much on an obstacle
if I'm crawling in a really tight wash.
>also, does an axle and diff
>suffer any damage while its sitting in a junkyard? i think the only
>inspection i can make is for metal shavings on the drain plugs. thinks
>for any comments on
Check for water in the oil. Also, in areas where humidity is high,
the part of the ring gear that has sat so long above the oil level
may be badly rusted.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: 09 Jun 97 17:05:03 PDT
From: Norman.Goetz@directory.Reed.EDU (Norman Goetz)
Subject: differentials
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
- --- You wrote:
I don't see myself doing anything
remotely radical or scary, so I'm not looking into a situation where I have
several wheels in the air. So what I'm looking for is something that
drives well on the road (this car spends 85% of the time on the road) and
kicks in when I need a little extra traction.
I've heard differing opinions on Limited Slip Diffs in the rain and snow.
I've heard someone say that they are extremely dangerous in four wheel
drive. I've heard they are useless in the snow. I've heard that they are
great in the snow, even better than a locker.
- --- end of quoted material ---
I have a Gleason-Torsen (not in a Toyota) which is mechanically the same as
a True-Trac. In snow (a few inches and up) I think it's about the same.
At the moment of max torque transfer the locker will spin both wheels on
the axle at the same RPM, while the LS will spin the low-traction wheel
at a faster rate. Not clear to me if either is an advantage. But on
ice the locker may break the axle free of traction, so loss of control
in corners or on the straight if the road is banked significantly toward
the shoulder. The LS may do better, by maintaining some traction on the
"slow" wheel even when the other one on the axle breaks free.
In rain, I would suspect the locker might do worse in hydroplaning because
of its sudden and jerky lockup. The LS works smoothly and gradually. But
mostly I wouldn't expect much difference.
In general, some people dislike the road manners of the lockers but the
latest models have reduced some of the problems. The LS is smooth and
you'll never know it's there until you lose traction.
Norman
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 19:34:05 -0600
From: loki@crestedbutte.net
Subject: lockers. . .
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Kent Seegmiller wrote:
>
> I have an '89 Toy pickup and looking to put some lockers in the rear.
> I have been looking at Lock-rights and ARB air lockers. Any
> info/horror stories would be appreciated.
>
> thanks Kent Seegmiller
Kent, I just put an Ez locker in my 85 4runner. I'm told that its a
perfect match for a lockright. I can give you a neewbies review of it.
On road hasn't been as annoying as I expected. On sharp low speed turns
its most noticeable. I have heard the bang only a few times and not as
loud as I expected. I noticed a faint squeek when rounding larger
corners at 40mph. No sideaffects at 60mph that I can tell. Off road
performance improved the normal amount, less wheel hop now. I really
noticed a tendency for the rear end to slide out in offcamber spots. if
i goosed it on grass or mud or sand it was going to the side. I think
I'll get used to this and throttle carefully in offcamber places. This
winter could be interesting for me, we average 300 inches of snow here a
year. I think I'll invest in some studded tires for the winter. Hope
this helps. Rob Boyle 85 4runner
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:43:14 -0700
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: Lockers
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
> I have an '89 Toy pickup and looking to put some lockers in the rear.
> I have been looking at Lock-rights and ARB air lockers. Any
> info/horror stories would be appreciated.
>
Another option, cheaper than ARB but more expensive than Lock-Rite, is an
LSD unit from TRD. Off-highway they are great, I go everywhere the ARB
guys go, and have never broken a driveline component. On the highway,
you can hardly tell its back there (no banging, or tire chirping, or
under-steer). No switches to remember to turn off or on. No compressor
or vacuum line to plumb or worry about. I had a Detroit on my '85 pickup.
It worked great off-road, but I hated the on-highway manners (my 'truck'
is also my daily driver).
##################################################################
Rick Murray stock 22R motor ; 3" ProComp Lift
84 Toyota 4Runner SR5 33" BFG M/Ts ; 4.88 gears
Rancho Cordova, Ca. Rancho 9000's ; on-board air
http://www.gvn.net/~rmurray/ Marlin TCase #67 ; TRD LSD
##################################################################
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:14:10 -0700
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: Lock-Rite install...
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Arminder Sidhu wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am experiencing a hesitation when I engage the clutch on my 92 4R V6 just
> after I had the locker installed. It seem like it is slipping. I'm not
> that mechanically inclined, I'm wondering if this is par for the course or
> abnormal behavior for the Lock-Rite in the rear 8" V6 diff?
>
>
With your lockright you now have 100% torque to both wheels, it feels
different than 50%, that is the only difference you should see with the
locker (when you take off at a stop sign you'll notice the be lift on
one side a bit).
- --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brandon Miller email: sac78483@saclink.csus.edu
Sacramento, CA millerb@gaia.ecs.csus.edu
url: http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb/4x.html
1983 Toyota LB locked F&R, 5.29:1 gears, roll cage, etc. etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:50:24 -0700
From: Wiley Davis
Subject: Lock-Rite install...
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Scott Wilson wrote:
>
> Arminder Sidhu wrote:
> > I am experiencing a hesitation when I engage the clutch on my 92 4R V6 just
> > after I had the locker installed. It seem like it is slipping. I'm not
> > that mechanically inclined, I'm wondering if this is par for the course or
> > abnormal behavior for the Lock-Rite in the rear 8" V6 diff?
>
> I believe the Lock Rite (like my Detroit), has a quarter (maybe only an 1/8)
According to powertrax, it is 25 degrees of slop. About 1/14th of a turn.
I agree that it feels more like a bad u-joint than anything else.
- -Wiley-
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:01:48 -0700
From: EMunsen
Subject: Front locker options 4 an 8"
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I currently have a tru-trac installed in the front of my 84. My opinion
of it lowers everytime I'm off road. Considering the replacements is
tough. I want the ARB but thats pricey and at the opposite end is the
lockrite but I dont have the factory carrier so..... Has anyone seen or
heard any recent rumors about the "commando lock" from powertrax? Please
let me know via the list or direct mail your experiences with real
lockers in the front solid axles and the gear tire size you are running.
Thanks!! Eric Munsen
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:55:14 -0700
From: Sterling Rorden
Subject: Trutrac in the rear: bad idea?
To: ej@rubicon.off-road.com
I currently run Tru-tracs front and rear. I put a Tru-trac in the rear
because I didn't want to worry about poor road manners in the snow or
when my wife drives the truck in the rain.
I recently went over the Rubicon and the truck did great. Never got the
truck stuck due to one wheel turning but the other one not. Other
Toyota trucks without limited slips/lockers did not do as well.
Sterling
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:00:07 -0700
From: "...E..."
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #455
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>
> I would say forget the lift, put the money into gears and lockers. 4:88
> gears, Detroit soft locker in the rear and Tru-Track in the front. You
> will save lots of labor costs doing it all at once (will cost $1,600)
> total. With a little work you can put 32" tires on the truck without a
> lift. If you don't have something in the diffs than any lift is just for
> show. A stock truck with 31" tires and a locker in the rear will go more
> places that a lifted truck with 33" tires and open diffs.
> Go for it Tim! The lockright and the detroit will work with your new gears
> as well as the current ones the only diff is the lockright uses the existing
> carrier and the detroit replaces the carrier (the detroit is stronger)
> If you decide on the detroit you will have to re-setup the gears though.
> The lockright is a bit less hassle and you can do it yourself!
>
I agree that the traction adding devices are far more important than a
lift. My 86 4-runner had lock-rites front and rear and 31 inch a\t's. I
went everywhere. But....
the undercarrage was scrathced a little. To gain 3 inches of diff
clearance you will spend alot of money in tires\wheels, lift and
accelerated maintance. I currently have an 84 mini with a detroit in the
rear and just replaced the True-track (crap) with an ARB. Someone out
there has decided that the true-track should reside in the front of
toyotas. I think this person must have been a dealer of them. Save your
$400 and put it twards a traction adding device that works. Plus the
true-trac wont work with a 33.
No mater which locker you add the ring gear will have to be seperated
from the carrier. I dont feel that the gears will need to be set up
after adding any locker unless you change the pinion depth. The ring
gear will have to be removed with any locker installed. As long as the
ring gear is re-installed with the correct backlash you will be fine.
If you plan to add new gears later, set up of the 3rd member will be
mandatory. I wouldnt want to pay for that service twice.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:58:51 -0700
From: "Don Kinzie"
Subject: Tru-Tracs
To:
<
<
Subject: Tru-Trak
To: "Toy4x4@tlca.org"
> Plus the
> > true-trac wont work with a 33.
I have to dispute this. I have a 1990 Ex-Cab with 4:88 gears Tru-Trak
front and ARB rear. I run 33" tires off-road and the Tru-Trak works
fine. I have had not problems with it and I don't do wimp trails
(Rubicon, Sierra Terk)
The Tru-Trak came highly recommed to me by three places in
Sacramento-S&H four whee, West Coast Diff. and Four Wheel Parts
Warehouse. You are entitled to your opinion but mine sure differs from
it.
David Fritzsche
1990 V-6 Ex-Cab
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:15:32 -0400
From: "jfloen"
Subject: snow driving
To:
RE:Snow driving
I live in the land of snow,Thunderbay,Ontario,Canada.I drive in the snow 6
months a year.I have had both two wheel drives and four.My 79 dodge 2wd had
a rear lsd.never swapped ends.My 90 jeep yj has a dana track lock,never
swapped ends.My 81 toy shortbox 4x4 had detroits front and rear,never
swapped ends.In my 85 toy i will be installing a detroit locker and
truetrack combo soon(damn UPS!).Lockers are not the evil
demons people think they are!If you know how to drive you will never have
problems.Even an open diff can spin both tires and the same speed,therefore
can make you spin out.If this happens,and it will on ice locker or no
locker,all you do is put in the clutch or ease up on the throttle(but not
so much as to lock up the tires!).But never hit the brakes in a sideways
slid.Learning how to counter steer will help too.I,personaly,could not go
without at least one locker due to where i work.i know how to drive a rig
with a locker,so for me it is not scary at all.For me no locker means no
four wheeling in the winter months,you just get stuck really bad really
fast(no fun)!!For someone who is intimidated by a locking diff,get an ARB
or go open.Even a limited slip that is working properly will spin just like
a locker.No real difference on slippery pavement.I would rather just put a
detroit in and know that i'm not going to get stuck in a snowed in road or
even my driveway,and adjust my driving for the road conditions.If your
worried about wheelspin just slow down.You have to learn to adjust to the
weather because it certainly won't adjust to you!
just a couple of pennies from a northerner
DARREN FLOEN
85 toyota ext.cab
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:44:12 -0600
From: "ARTHUR RUMPF"
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #459
To:
> Plus the true-trac wont work with a 33.
Uh,
The True Trac is not warranted for use with tires bigger than 31 inches,
that doesn't mean it won't work with bigger tires. Just put one in my full
size 4X4 but don't have it running yet.
Art, 82 SR5
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 17:55:00 -0800
From: david fritzsche
Subject: Tru-TrakQuestion for your concerning the Trutrac though is would you rather
To: "Toy4x4@tlca.org"
> Question for your concerning the Trutrac though is would you rather
> have an ARB in the front (like you have in the back) rather than the
> Trutrac if you had that option available to you?
>
I would love to have an ARB up front. I have talked to Jack O'brian of
JP Eater and he was telling me that they took a Toyota front axle with
the 8' diff and cut it down and adapted to take the place of the front
IFS diff. retaining the IFS but with an 8" diff. and he put an ARB in.
Liked the sound of it until I heard the price $1500.00 to $2000.00. I
would rather put the whole solid axle up there.
I was also told that they do not know of anyone that has had problems
with a Tru-Trak and 33's
David Fritzsche
1990 V-6 Ex-Cab
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 21:47:02 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: 93 4Runner rear locker
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Rich Woest wrote:
>
> I'm planning to add a locker to my 93 V6 SR5 Runner, and am loccking for
> advice - what's the best bang for the buck unit? Is it a do-it-yourself
> possible unit? If not... a guess at $ to install too. I'm in San Jose Ca
> and have had my suspension work so far done at 4WP Wholesalers. Thanks in
> advance.
We'll there are a few on the market, and for the most part their price
seems to rank them pretty well. I think the Detroit is the most
expensive, but it also has a reputation for being bulletproof. I have
one in my rear-end in my 88 4Runner and I'm quite pleased with it.
I am however not pleased with street performance. Don't get me wrong,
it's not THAT bad or anything, I'm just not gonna be satisfied with
anything less then the street performance of a open diff. I'm also
tired of having to -warn- anyone who needs to drive my truck (the
alignment guy, the mechanic who did my clutch, etc). I'm also tired of
not being able to let people like my girlfriend drive the truck. She is
not very good at driving a stick, and adding in the "locker" factor is
enough to make not -ever- let her drive it. (Now that she's getting
better at stick I'll let her drive it in the future). I think the
Detroit would be a lot easier to deal with if your truck is an
automatic. My biggest complaint is the 1/4 turn of play in the
driveshaft, I think that would be much more invisible with an
automatic. Anyway, whenever I can scrape enough cash together I would
like to replace it with an ARB. IMHO, not quite as bulletproof as the
Detroit, but definately more street friendly. Plus I'll have the
on-board air I've wanted!
Scott
- --
_____
/_/_|_\__ Scott Wilson
| _ _ : Santa Clara, CA
*/_\---/_\' http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
(_) (_)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:37:49 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: 93 4Runner rear locker
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I already forgot who the guy was who started this thread but I remember
he was in San Jose. I wanted to mention to you...if you have whatever
you get installed, I highly reccomend:
Rearend Specialties
1040 DiGiulio St
Santa Clara, CA 95050
408-988-3619
They installed my Detroit for $115. They are VERY good. They came
highly recommended to me, and I've since reccomended them to many
people. I have yet to hear of a problem with them.
Scott
- --
_____
/_/_|_\__ Scott Wilson
| _ _ : Santa Clara, CA
*/_\---/_\' http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
(_) (_)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:45:01 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: More Locker Questions.............
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Rob Ditusa wrote:
> Could those of you with Detroits in the rear please elaborate on "bad
> street performance", or "funky characteristics"???????
Well, my biggest complaint is the 1/4 turn of play in the drive shaft.
With a stick shift you'll feel it every time you pull away from a stop,
and sometime even when shifting between other gears (over time you learn
to drive it better, and the problem lessens)
If you also supply enough torque to the rear wheels (e.i. accelerate
quickly while turning right out of a drive way, or make a fast right
hand turn from a stop or near stop) the locker can lock up. One wheel
will hop, or slide along the pavement while the other is firmly
planted. (sounds like you're doing a burner)
For the same reason I just mentioned they can also make you sound like
you're doing a burner in a parking lot. Some of the lots use a black
top material that is not as abrasive as streets. The can sound like
your peeling out at 1-2mph.
Then there is the though of lockers on ice. I have yet to drive mine on
ice, so I can't share my experience. It's not that the truck will kill
you in slippery conditions though...you just need to remember the locker
is there...and drive the truck appropiately.
> What s