Drive Shafts
------------------------------
Date: 5 Feb 1997 09:05:20 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Drive Shaft ?'s & Shops
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:54 AM
OFFICE MEMO Drive Shaft ?'s & Shops Date: 2/5/97
bwiencek@kcnet.com wrote:
>As I am nearing the point in my V-8 installation where I can
>actually measure the length required for my driveshafts, I was
>wondering if anyone had any thoughts on wether or not to do a one
>piece shaft in the rear. From what I've read, I will be about 3
>3/4" shorter than stock - or should I just get the stock shafts cut
>& balanced?
If you retain the two-piece unit and have a lift on the truck you
will experience considerable vibration once you install the larger
engine. The second angle created in the driveshaft when you lift
it likes to jump around upon acceleration.
A one-piece shaft costs a bit of clearance, but you won't have
the vibration problem.
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:27:32 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Drive Shaft ?'s & Shops.
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Brian wrote:
> As I am nearing the point in my V-8 installation where I can
>actually measure the length required for my driveshafts, I was
>wondering if anyone had any thoughts on wether or not to do a one
>piece shaft in the rear. From what I've read, I will be about 3
>3/4" shorter than stock - or should I just get the stock shafts cut
>& balanced?
I vote for the one-piece drive shaft since it creates a lesser degree
of angle on the u-joint at the diff., especially under extreme droop.
> Anyone recomend a shop to order new shafts from? Any
>expierence with Mid States distributors (I think that's the name)?
I believe you're talking about Six States Dist., I have a front drive
shaft from them it's really a nice piece, I don't have to worry about
breaking it. It uses the big Dana u-joints. Seeing the new ads now
though, I would consider giving Gloeco, Inc. in Phoenix a call. They
can make driveshafts with much longer slip splines than Six States can
but I can't speak for they're overall quality though.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:05:57 -0500
From: critchpw@craft.camp.clarkson.edu
Subject: driveline stuff
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In response to the current string of driveshaft questions- I have a similar
problem coming up. With a 3" Skyjacker lift, the center bearing (which was
on its last legs anyway) is heading south fast. I asked a friend who knows
Toy trucks inside and out for advice. He gave me a few options:
1) Replace the bearing for about $100, and look into lowering it 1/2 of the
amount of my lift,
2) Find an '84-'88 std. cab longbed- they used the same overall length shaft,
but made it one piece- about $50 from a scrapyard, or
3) Have mine custom lengthened- about $90
I'm currently looking for the longbed for obvious reasons...
Also, Jay K. is right on the money with that reverse gear question. This
gear is what is called a "spur" gear (I know this from my old Mech. Eng. books)
They are designed for speed, not strength. That's why when you go in reverse,
you hear that gear "whine"- that's the gear winding up. Although, I've pulled
many trucks out of floorboard deep mudholes while going in reverse with no
problems- and my tranny has 220,000 miles on it. Take into account, however,
that these were all done with snatch straps. If you tense up a chain and
then hammer it in reverse, you're asking for trouble.
- -Paul
------------------------------
Date: 7 Feb 1997 09:32:05 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Drive Shaft ?'s & Shops
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:33 AM
OFFICE MEMO Drive Shaft ?'s & Shops Date: 2/7/97
Scott Muir wrote:
>Is there some way of lowering the the middle joint in the drive line a bit to
>lessen the angles or is there some price to pay for doing this?
You could relocate it down and correct the angle. You would lose a
bit of clearance but not unlike that when going to a one-piece.
One down side to the two-piece is that the carrier bearings do
wear out and Toyota gets about $150 for them. Though if you
have a good two-piece driveshaft, you can at least use it until
the bearing gets sloppy.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 01:13:45 -0600
From: Steven Benson
Subject: Engine Swap/Drive Shafts
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I used the GM driveshafts and a spicer yoke which bolted directly to the
Toyota pinion yoke. Come to think of it, these may have been stock
Toyota yokes?! Didn't even have to use a conversion joint, the GM joints
worked just fine.
Craig Blanchette wrote:
I am about to begin a 350 swap into my 1982 truck. We were planning on
putting a 350, auto trans, 205 transfercase, and then modify the chevy
driveshafts to toyota ends. Has anyone ever done this? Any suggestions
or helpfull hints would be great.
______________________________________________
Steven Benson
'85 Toy X-Cab | MNTOYX4 | MN4WDA | TLCA #4835
http://www.off-road.com/~MNTOYX4
mailto:toyx4@winternet.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 13:20:21 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Front driveshaft mods
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I just pulled the 3-degree shims out from under my front springs and stuck
in some 1" longer than stock shackles. Now I've got a front driveshaft
problem, or, more correctly, some front shaft problems.
#1: Front U-joint contacts itself (too much angle) when spinning.
Possible solutions? a) put in a double-Cardan joint (like in the rear) to
replace the front U-joint (halves the joint angle). b) go to town and put
in a Marlin Crawler (the flavor that bolts to the back of my existing
t-case), lengthening the shaft, thereby alleviating the extreme shaft
angle.
Ideas, comments, suggestions?
#2 Front shaft now too short; looks like slip-yoke is gonna slip right out
and leave me with a show truck.
Possible solutions? a) bite the bullet and have a shop lengthen the shaft
(putting in the double-Cardan joint at the same time). b) go with the
Marlin and HAVE to lengthen the shaft. c) all of the above.
Ideas, comments, suggestions? Any of you solid-axle high-riders have any
tips, tricks, nifty stories before I haul out my checkbook?
- Nick
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:58:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Front driveshaft mods
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Nick Krest wrote:
> I just pulled the 3-degree shims out from under my front springs and stuck
> in some 1" longer than stock shackles. Now I've got a front driveshaft
> problem, or, more correctly, some front shaft problems.
>
> #1: Front U-joint contacts itself (too much angle) when spinning.
>
> Possible solutions? a) put in a double-Cardan joint (like in the rear) to
> replace the front U-joint (halves the joint angle). b) go to town and put
> in a Marlin Crawler (the flavor that bolts to the back of my existing
> t-case), lengthening the shaft, thereby alleviating the extreme shaft
> angle.
>
> Ideas, comments, suggestions?
I haven't worked on solid axles, but I have a few questions/thoughts:
First question: How much lift are you running?
On the IFS trucks, they usually have a double carden on the front
driveshaft (at the t-case end), and just single (normal) u-joints on the
rear driveshaft (both ends).
Anyway, the double carden that was on my front driveshaft couldn't handle
much angle. Maybe 10 degrees each way (this is a guess). I didn't measure
it, but when I had my front 'shaft off, I noticed that it couldn't run at
much angle at all (at least 1/2 of what the front u-joint could do).
Next thought: If you run a double carden on your front shaft (assuming
you want to be able to run 4wd at highway speeds) then you can *not* run
any angle in the u-joint at the other end. It would need to be pointing
directly at the t-case.
Basically, if you run a u-joint at an angle, and if one end is spinning at
a constant rate, then the other end of the u-joint will go through a
'sine' wave pattern of slowing down and speeding up. This is why you get
vibrations when u-joints aren't at *exactly* the same angle/phase. If you
run a double carden, then regardless of the angle that it runs at the two
u-joints within the double carden cancel out this sine wave accel/deccel.
Therefor, you would need to either run double cardens at both ends (at
any angle), a double carden at one end (with the u-joint at the other end
at zero angle), or u-joints at both ends at identical angles.
Another comment: I've heard that you can run double cardens at both ends
of a driveshaft, but I've never personally seen it, and it sure seems like
it wouldn't work.
One more comment: Typically lift kits will include shims or tapered
blocks to 'aim' the diff at the t-case. This will result in no angle at
the rear u-joint, and a certain angle at the t-case one. Assuming both
joints are u-joints (and they usually are) then in theory you should get
some vibration. But often enough you don't. this is mostly because when
the diff was rotated up, despite the lift kit, the t-case u-joint angle is
reduced some, and in many cases you just don't notice the vibration. I
guess it's more due to luck and drivetrain slop than anything though.
That's my guess anyway.
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 09:24:43 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Front driveshaft mods
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Steve Keene wrote:
"1. Why did you pull the degree shimms out?
Seems like the solution would be to put them in."
Two reasons: First, the degree shims starve the pinion of oil, making it
fail, and that's not a good thing. But primarily, I did it to correct the
handling problems the degree shims cause. I mean, they make it very
unstable, and it hunts all over the road, regardless of alignment. It gets
driven a lot, so this is very important to me.
"2. If you don't want shims what about relocating
the front spring mounts to a lower position.
There-by rotating the pinon up."
That would be a large relocation job. To get the shaft with an acceptable
angle, the spacers between the front spring eyes and the frame would have
to be several inches. The driveshaft angle is pretty severe, and it needs
to be lengthened anyway.
Here's the specs:
'81 longbed pickup.
3" Downey front springs.
1" longer front shackles.
No degree shims, no shims on trans or transfer case, no body lift.
I'm already planning on a trip to the driveshaft shop; I had just hoped
that someone had some previous experience with this.
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:31:15 +0000
From: "Mike Williams"
Subject: Front Driveshaft Mods
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On 30 Mar 97, (In response to the question - why did you remove the
degree shims from your front springs) Nick Krest wrote:
> Two reasons: First, the degree shims starve the pinion of oil, making it
> fail, and that's not a good thing. But primarily, I did it to correct the
> handling problems the degree shims cause. I mean, they make it very
> unstable, and it hunts all over the road, regardless of alignment. It gets
> driven a lot, so this is very important to me.
Nick, I know that my input does not offer you any solid answers but I
think my experiences will help you and other that are modifing their
solid axle Toyotas.
First, I agree with your statement that degree shims do rotate the
differentials and can lead to a lubrication problem in regards to
pinion bearings. When I changed my suspension to a 5" lift about 4
years ago this was a concern that my mechanic and I discussed. At
the time of my suspension change, I also had 5.29 gears and a
rear limited slip installed, and my front driveshaft lengthened.
With an investment such as this we didn't want anything to fail
especially the gears (which we considered the fragile part of this
equation). My mechanic was an old drag racing fanatic and suggested
that I run Moroso Climbing Gear Oil in the differentials. He
claimed that this oil actually climbs (not splashes) upward as it is
whipped and lubricates upper areas. Is it "Snake Oil" ? -- Well, I
haven't had any problems yet.
With the 5" lift, I used degree shims to rotate my differential.
The shims were only 3 degrees but combine that with the approximate
3.3 degrees of caster built into an '81 solid axle and you now
have a caster of about 6.3 degrees. With the caster angle changed,
something has to give ("hunts all over the road"). To combat this
"hunts all over the road" steering, I run my toe-in at -.125"
(factory spec is +/- .004). I feel that changing my toe-in has
helped, but not completely solved this problem. I also modified my
steering by moving the ball stud on the steering knuckle arm from the
bottom to the top (but I really didn't notice any difference).
Keep us posted on your solution.
Mike Williams
======+++++++++++++======
mwill@ctos.com
===++++++++++++++===
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:56:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Front Driveshaft Mods
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> With the 5" lift, I used degree shims to rotate my differential.
> The shims were only 3 degrees but combine that with the approximate
> 3.3 degrees of caster built into an '81 solid axle and you now
> have a caster of about 6.3 degrees. With the caster angle changed,
> something has to give ("hunts all over the road"). To combat this
This is kinda a nit-picky detail, but the 3 degree shims (to raise the
pinion) would reduce your caster from 3.3 to .3.
My jeep was like this...well, actually it had about zero degrees of
caster. Oh boy, combine that with whiped out springs, no sway bar, ~80"
wheelbase, and lowsy non-assist drum brakes, and an overpowerd saginaw
steering...man that thing was scarry in the winters (not to mention
cold!).
> "hunts all over the road" steering, I run my toe-in at -.125"
> (factory spec is +/- .004). I feel that changing my toe-in has
> helped, but not completely solved this problem. I also modified my
I had my toe-in increased too--didn't make much difference for me. Hey,
has anyone tried out those steering dampners with a coil spring atached to
the outside of them? I know they'd make it handle even worse (numb) but
at least it'd track a little straiter.
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 12:14:10 -0500
From: "R. W. 'Butch' Stiles"
Subject: Front Driveshaft Mods
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Mike Williams wrote:
I used degree shims to rotate my differential.
> The shims were only 3 degrees but combine that with the approximate
> 3.3 degrees of caster built into an '81 solid axle and you now
> have a caster of about 6.3 degrees.
With 3 degree shims installed to rotate the pinion upward you are taking
caster out, not putting more in. With 3.3 degrees caster 'built-in'
adding the shims leaves you with .3 degrees, which leaves you "all over
the road". By rotating the knuckle slightly towards the rear of the
vehicle (positive caster if memory serves) it gives the front wheels a
tendency to want to stay straight ahead, taking that out by installing
shims will eliminate this most excellent trait and give you a vehicle
that just "goes where it's of a mind to". The only true fix for this is
to cut and turn the knuckles back to factory specs. This is also an
expensive operation, but that's the only way I know. Anyone else ?
Butch Stiles
rokitman@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:05:29 +0000
From: "Mike Williams"
Subject: Front Driveshaft Mods/Confusion
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
As I read over the digests from the last couple of days I noticed
that this thread seems to be generating a lot of conflicting ideas
such as these loosely quoted ideas:
Lowering the front of the springs by way of a shackle lift will
cause the differential to rotate up - another responder claims
that lowering the front springs causes the differential to rotate
down. ??????
Double Cardan joints don't handle much angle at all ????
U-joints handle steeper angles. ?????? (Don't tell my mud-racing
friends this - guess they have been wasting their money).
My current line of thought is that lowering the front spring
eye whether by use of a shackle or lowering the mounting bracket will
cause the differential to rotate upward (not downward) but the amount
of rotation maybe minimal at best.
Double Cardan joints do allow drivelines to operate at steeper angles
but are an expensive option.
Correct me if I am wrong (not an open invite to start a flame war).
Mike Williams
======+++++++++++++======
mwill@ctos.com
===++++++++++++++===
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 12:50:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Front Driveshaft Mods/Confusion
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On Sun, 30 Mar 1997, Mike Williams wrote:
> Lowering the front of the springs by way of a shackle lift will
> cause the differential to rotate up - another responder claims
> that lowering the front springs causes the differential to rotate
> down. ??????
If you put in longer shackles, then the pinion will point farther
downward, and the caster will increase. (This is for a toyota p/u with
the front shackles at the *rear* of the front springs btw)
> Double Cardan joints don't handle much angle at all ????
The ones on our IFS type front driveshafts can't. But those are the only
ones I've seen. I'd think that they would make ones that can though.
> U-joints handle steeper angles. ?????? (Don't tell my mud-racing
> friends this - guess they have been wasting their money).
We can run more than 15 degrees of angle on our single u-joints. It's not
good for them at all, but they will run it. I was simply saying that at
least on the double carden's I've seen, they simply can't run at a steep
angle--but if you had one that was designed for it, then sure it could run
at a steeper angle than a single u-joint. Though double carden's do take
up more driveshaft length though.
> My current line of thought is that lowering the front spring
> eye whether by use of a shackle or lowering the mounting bracket will
> cause the differential to rotate upward (not downward) but the amount
> of rotation maybe minimal at best.
Right, but only if you have *front* mounted shackles (like on a Land
Cruiser).
> Double Cardan joints do allow drivelines to operate at steeper angles
> but are an expensive option.
Right, assuming they're designed for it.
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 08:39:54 +0000
From: "Mike Williams"
Subject: Front Driveshaft Mods/Confusion
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
First, I apologize to the list for posting the same message twice.
Then I would like to thank those that corrected my thinking on the
front driveshaft issue.
Jonathon and Butch - you guys are correct adding degree shims does
change the caster from 3.3 to .3 not 6.3 as I stated.
I think Butch summed everything up well by stating:
> With 3 degree shims installed to rotate the pinion upward you are taking
> caster out, not putting more in. With 3.3 degrees caster 'built-in'
> adding the shims leaves you with .3 degrees, which leaves you "all over
> the road". By rotating the knuckle slightly towards the rear of the
> vehicle (positive caster if memory serves) it gives the front wheels a
> tendency to want to stay straight ahead, taking that out by installing
> shims will eliminate this most excellent trait and give you a vehicle
> that just "goes where it's of a mind to".
Now, I understand the scenario that Nick is trying to work through.
I am also very interested in a simple solution as I try to improve
the ride and handling of my truck.
Mike Williams
======+++++++++++++======
mwill@ctos.com
===++++++++++++++===
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 1 Apr 1997 12:46:12 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Front driveshaft angles
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 12:25 PM
OFFICE MEMO Front driveshaft angles Date: 4/1/97
Nick was asking about front driveshaft angles and shims and such.
Unfortunately the front driveshaft on Toy trucks is fairly short.
This means it doesn't take much lift and droop to start getting
into some trouble with the the yokes on the CV joint on the front
driveshaft.
A lot of 3-4" and up lift kits provide front shims to pitch the
pinion flange upward toward the transfer case to help ease the
driveshaft angles under droop.
Add longer shackles and you complicate the problem because the
longer shackles turn the pinion flange back down. I run both longer
shackles and 3 degree shims on my truck. As Nick stated, pinion
lubrication may suffer when the pinion angle is pitched upward.
However, for the crawling I do and the small angle (3 degree), I
have had no problems. High speed running makes pinion lubrication
more critical, but you also have more lube splashing around too.
One way to increase driveshaft angle capability is to get rid of
the CV joint and run two u-joints on the driveshaft. I just made
a spare like this but have yet to use it on the truck. The CV joint
takes up a lot of distance in the shaft and CVs generally cannot
operate at as great an angle as a u-joint. However, if you run at
high speeds in 4WD, you may have front end vibration problems
without the CV joint.....depends on your lift, angles, etc.
With my current CV joint front driveshaft, I have to run a limit
strap on the front axle to prevent the driveshaft from going into
bind and/or pulling apart.
I have thought of possibly cutting apart my front axle and then
rotating the pinion flange upward to lessen the driveshaft angles.
There may also be a way to install some type of oil slinger to
help with the lubrication problem.
As far as driveshafts go......I run a Spicer (J**p type) CV joint
driveshaft with Toyota flanges and conversion u-joints. I don't
know which........the Spicer or Toyota CVs offer more angular
movement. I need the Spicer piece to run a small diameter
tube to clear my tranny pan.
Toyota driveshafts uses 1-1612 series u-joints and the Spicer
yokes use 1-0153 series u-joints. To mate the Spicer yokes to the
Toyota flanges, I use one of each type u-joint and swap two bearing
caps on each joint. However, you can only do this if the center piece
dimensions are the same on both u-joints.
Spicer also makes longer spline sets (Jack uses these) which help
with the spline length, but not the angle problem. Gloecoe here in
Phoenix also builds spline sections up to about 16" long.
Putting in a Marlin double case would do a lot to cure the driveshaft
bind problem, so that is an option.
Enough rambling........hope this helps a bit.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 07:38:56 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Front Driveshaft Mods/Confusion
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Mike Williams wrote:
"Now, I understand the scenario that Nick
is trying to work through. I am also very
interested in a simple solution as I try
to improve the ride and handling of my truck."
Mike (and all) -
Losing the degree shims was the single best thing I could have done for my
truck's on-road handling. As has been previously stated, there is not
enough alignment adjustment built-in to overcome the caster problems you
get into when you start messing with the stock front axle geometry. Now I
understand what Jay has been working on with his idea of pulling and
re-welding all the front axle mounts on his truck.
Let me reiterate what I am trying to do. By pulling the degree shims, I am
trying to eliminate all the quick and dirty band-aids that suspension
manufacturers assume the off-road public wants. The degree shims made the
truck dangerous to drive, IMHO, because of the wandering. It is for this
reason that I wouldn't let anyone drive, including Teri (SCCA license and
all), because I would not be able to face myself in the mirror if someone
else got hurt driving my truck, because of this handling trait. IMHO,
degree shims in your front axle make your truck far more dangerous to drive
than a locker or spool on black ice, or using front (or rear) lift blocks.
I'm very surprised we put up with this.
The problem I am having is with the front driveshaft length and angle. That
means I am going to tackle that problem directly, not indirectly by using
any number of other methods to ameliorate the problem. I feel that a
lengthened shaft, double-Cardan joints on the front of the shaft, and
perhaps a Crawler bolted to the back of the stock transfer (good excuse to
get one - someone please let me know how they like theirs*) will address
that problem directly. If I am pointed in the wrong direction, please let
me know. Otherwise, it's off to the driveshaft shop.
Thanks to all for their input so far.
- Nick
* Michael Greenway already told me how much he LOVES his, but I need more
convincing.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 97 12:05 PDT
From: Robert.Elsemore@ncal.kaiperm.org
Subject: drive line cures???
To: FourXtoy@thuntek.net, Toy4x4@tlca.org
Steve,
I have experienced the exact same symptoms with the drive line
vibration happening under coast conditions only. This has
happened with two of my vehicles ('82 RX-7 and '85 4Runner) and
both times the cure was a new tranny mount. Those tranny mounts
can be elusive. They *look* fine, but sometimes they aren't.
Give it a try, heck you've been fighting it for how long now...?
BTW, your driveline angles sound fine. I'm running about 4" of
lift on my '85 4Runner and the transfer case and 3rd member are
at their stock angles. No vibrations :)
- -Rob Elsemore
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:57:24 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Driveline angles
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Steve Hunt wrote:
>I've got a problem with drive line vibrations here. I have an '86 4Runner
>with a 4" Explorer Pro comp stg II lift. The rear diff has a Detroit
>softlocker with new 4:88 gears and bearings. The rear diff is angled upward
>from zero plane at 4 degrees. The transfer case is angled down from zero
>plane at 4 degrees. when torque is being applied from the engine, there is
>no vibration. when torque is being applied from the tires, there is no
>vibration. when coasting and the drive line is allowed to float, that's
>when the chattering starts up. The slope of the drive line is 17 degrees,
If it only does it when your back driving the gears/engine (i.e. coasting),
it sounds like a problem in the setup of the gears or the pinon nut is
loose. I recently toasted an upper pinon bearing and my truck displayed
the same symptoms.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:22:17 -0600
From: "Steve and Carole"
Subject: drive line cures???
To: "Toyota Info TLCA"
Might swap a driveshaft from the neighbors taco :):)
EWong
I might just do that :)
I have talked to a shop here in town about making a shaft for me with a
double cardan joint on it. They quoted me about $225, you all think this is
a fair deal? Today I'm gonna ask about warranties, shaft length, j-joint
angles...etc, to see if these guys really know what they are doing. One guy
here in town who has a drive shaft shop, didn't even know about the u-joint
angles. pretty sad.
THANK YOU all for your excellent help, I really appreciate all your
comments, you all have helped me a great deal. I'll let you all know how it
turns out. THANKS AGAIN...:):):)
Fourxtoy@thuntek.net
------------------------------
To: barney@flowpoint.com
Cc: toy4x4@tlca.org
Subject: u joints
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7-9
From: val_l1@juno.com
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 03:22:22 EDT
barney, i had the same problem, only i knew the solution and was too
cheap to pay for it for awhile. take your drive shaft to a driveline
service shop and have a new one built with chevy u joints. i did and now
my toy is so smooth on the highway its like my wifes lincoln. it only
cost 250.00 and was done in 1 day. the shop i used was driveline service
of san jose, steve is the wizard down there and will set you straight.
the phone number is 286-0162. seriously this is the best way to go. they
balance the shaft also.
val cmat l1
80 sb 4x4 p up
__________________
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 14:29 PDT
To: barney@flowpoint.com
From: Robert.Elsemore@ncal.kaiperm.org
Subject: Lunch anyone?
Barney,
I had some troubles with my original drive line/u-joints too. I
finally ended up having a custom one built with 1310 series u-joints.
It's been great. I carry my original as a spare. Kind of pricey
though: $300 I think. It was quite a while ago, so my memory's fading
on the exact amount. I think I *try* to forget those things anyway.
-Rob E.
-------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:34:30 -0600
From: "Steve and Carole"
Subject: building YOUR OWN truck
To: "Toyota Info TLCA"
Jack Wrote:
Nick lad, I think you missed the point completely. Without getting into a
super lengthy explanation here, the bottom line is: If you build the
truck, with custom parts or store bought, then it's your truck. If you
purchase the truck already modified, then you are the owner, but it's
someone else's truck. Someone else conceived it, planned it out, sweated
over it etc etc. It will be their truck until someone takes it even
further. They guy with the bucks has his name on the registration, but can
take no credit for it.
It's what you build, not what you buy.
Very well said, Many people will buy a truck that is already built up,
however they don't know the mechanics of HOW it was built up and what it
took to get that way. I have learned so many lessons in building my own
4Runner, should something on it break one day, I will know exactly why it
broke and how to fix it. There is definitely something to be said about
putting your own sweat and bloody knuckles into a truck.
On another note, my driveline vibrations have been cured with the
addition of a double-cardan joint on the top end of a new drive shaft. The
problem, very loud chattering when the driveshaft was allowed to float.
Between acceleration and deceleration or while maintaining speed the
driveline would get really loud. The actual cause was the u-joint angles
were too excessive, 13 degrees. A new shaft with a double cardan joint and
a long travel slip yoke for about $295 has made all the difference in the
world. I'm almost ready for the RUBITION!!!!!!!!!
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 28 Apr 1997 10:56:27 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: front drive shaft ideas
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:33 AM
OFFICE MEMO front drive shaft ideas Date: 4/28/97
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>This is mainly for Jay,
>
>Jay, I know you mentioned before about having problems with your front
>drive shaft pulling apart. I think I read somewhere that you have a
>driveshaft from six states with splines at both ends, which one should
>be preloaded with a spring.
Actually I run a custom CV driveshaft made by a local shop here in
Phoenix. Mine doesn't have double splines, though I need to do
something about it. Longer splines alone wouldn't cure the problem
because the driveshaft starts to bind (due to angle) about the same
time I run out of spline.
>I friend of mine with an old flat fender
>has been having problems for awhile now. His last try at a fix was
>spring loading both ends of the splines to center the center section. I
>think this did work for him.
This can work pretty good as long as both springs work consistantly.
However, what will probably happen some time is that the shaft will
still separate since there is no hard limit on the spline sliding......one
end will "hang" on the splines a bit and the other end will keep stretching
the spring until the shaft falls apart.
What works a bit better is to make a small hard limiter on each splined
end. This allows each end to slide freely until it is hard limited when
the spline contact grows short.......then the other end is forced to slide
open.
I'll probably swap over to a front driveshaft without a CV to increase
my droop angle capability. I will also probably grind back the yokes
a bit. Don't know yet if I'll pay the bucks for a long spline driveshaft
or build up my own double splined shaft from parts I have lying around.
The long spline unit is much cleaner but cost the $$$s.
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:46:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: twogrls@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Drive Shaft
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Last weekend I trashed the rear half of my rear driveshaft, I had a tempory
setup made with the parts and have a replacement on the way from a junk yard.
However the first replacement shaft I picked up was off a burnt Taco and is
not in the best of shape. So I will end up with lots of extra parts when all
is said and done.
So my question is what would be the advantages/disadvantages of taking all
these extra driveshaft parts and having a one piece straight shaft built.
The current set-up is:
Trans case-Bracket-U Jiont-Shaft-Double Cardian Jiont-Shaft W/extension-
UJiont-Bracket
I am thinking I can take the bracket uJiont and front fitting off of the
front half of the rear driveshaft and everything behind the tube on the
rear driveshaft and connect them with a new longer tube. Eliminating
lots of jionts and expensive parts in the middle.
What do I lose besides a small amount of ground clearance with this change?
Do I gain a stronger driveshaft? Is it now too long? How long can a one piece
driveshaft be? Lots for questions but few answers Any thoughts would be
appreciated.
Footnote: Went up the rock ledge too hard and fast trying to get in position
to be a hero and pull out a jeep. But I made it up the ledge while trashing
the shaft and completed the trail in front wheel drive to the amazement of
the Jeep Drivers. I had a new tube put in my drive shaft at a forestry
equipment place the next morning and was back on the trails by noon. The
shaft is a little crooked (42mph highway max) but ok for the trails. The tube
stock came out of thier dumpster and was resized with a blowtorch and a
sledgehammer ( You want a shaft for what was the first question ).
Mike Pelland
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 12 May 1997 16:21:31 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Drive Shaft
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:58 PM
OFFICE MEMO Drive Shaft Date: 5/12/97
twogrls@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>So my question is what would be the advantages/disadvantages
of taking all these extra driveshaft parts and having a one piece
straight shaft built.
>What do I lose besides a small amount of ground clearance with this change?
If your truck is lifted, you will probably lose a lot of the driveshaft
vibration that comes from a two-piece driveshaft on a lifted truck.
>Do I gain a stronger driveshaft?
I would think they would both be similar in strength.
>Is it now too long?
Shouldn't be. You might ask the shop what they figure as max. length
for the tube you plan to use.
>How long can a one piece driveshaft be?
Quite long, but I think it is based a lot on tube diameter. Smaller
diameter tubing will flex more than larger diameter.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:47:09 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: driveshaft center support bearing
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Ross Fahlen talked about a noise that might be a center support bearing.
If it is I would highly recommend the one piece driveshaft. When my
first bearing went out I shopped around and found a bearing for $140.
Not knowing any better I installed it. Well, my stock factory bearing
lasted around 10 years, around 7 years of that was with a 5 inch
suspension lift. The new aftermarket bearing started having loose
rubber after about 4 months but I drove with it for a few years until it
started to vibrate, then I put my old stock one back in 'yes, I still
had it.' I then looked into driveshafts and a new rebuilt one runs
around $200. Well worth the price not to worry about the money for the
bearing anymore. You might loose a little ground clearance but I have
not had problems with it so far.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 10 Jul 1997 11:35:10 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Driveshaft Center Bearing
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:00 AM
OFFICE MEMO Driveshaft Center Bearing Date: 7/10/97
david fritzsche wrote:
>I have a 1990 ex-cab pickup. Has 4" pro-comp II lift. Center
>bearing on the driveshaft is coming apart. Does the angle on
>this need to be adjusted because of the lift? If so how do
>you change the angle and how much do you change it.
When you lift a truck with a two-piece ds you add another
angle in the middle which usually leads to some increased
vibration. You could space the carrier bearing down to realign
it, but it would be cheaper and easier to convert to a one-piece
ds. The only slight disadvantage is the loss of some ground
clearance.....which you'd lose anyway if you spaced the two-piece
ds downward.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '85 4Runner (her project)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '91 4Runner (for sale)
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 09:25:00 -0500
From: Rosenberger Bud
Subject: Center bearing Advice needed
To: "toy4x4@tlca.org"
I need some advice on my 85 longbed truck. The center (carrier?) bearing
is shot. The rubber is almost gone and the whole thing just wobbles
around in there. Should I:
1. Replace with stock setup?
2. Have a one piece shaft made up like (I think) someone recommended a
few weeks ago? Should I install the 3" lift I'm planning before
having it made?
3. Take the old one off my 84 xtra cab parts truck? Is it the same?
Any tips, suggestions and tricks would be greatly appreciated!
Bud Rosenberger
85 SR5 longbed
et al
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:20:23 -0000
From: runars@isbank.is
Subject: Center bearing Advice needed
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
The bearing is there to reduce vibration. Long driveshafts (or actully
any shaft) vill start to flex (and cause vibration) as its rev goes
above certain limit. On long narrow shafts this limit is low, on short
wide shafts its high. Long wide shafts are somewhere inbetween. So,
going to a single shaft, might (note MIGHT) caus vibration on the
highway. It might reduce your ground clerange to.
The pre '89 xtra cabs and longbeds, have the same wheelbase so your '84
stuff should fit.
After '89, the xtra cab got a longer wheelbase (3.05m I belive), while
the longbed and the double cab still shared the 2.85m wheelbase. Never
understood why Toyota didn't use the xtra-cab chasses for the double
cab. Using the longbed chasses means that the bed is to short for any
real work (1.4m) and the cab is to crampy for comfort....! Besides It
would have gotten so much more beutiful on a 3m wheelbase....
Runar.
> ----
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:12:07 -0800
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: u-joint flange bolt pattern
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I believe the cut of is 84, you can drill the old ones out to fit the
new or you can just use a newer pinion flange on the older third member
(a better idea since the newer on uses larger bolts and actually has a
greater range of travel).
Darren Floen wrote:
>
> Anyone know what year Toyota changed from an asymetric bolt pattern to
> symetric pattern on the u-joint flanges?The reason i am asking is
> because i assembled a new diff for a chum of mine using an 81 pumpkin
> and u-joint flange,so that when we installed it we would have minimum
> downtime.This went into the frontend of his 85 pu.I got it in and
> everything assembled,except the driveshaft,but when i went to bolt the
> shaft up,the bolt patterns different!!I had to channge the flange on the
> driveshaft with one from an 81 toy.So, does anyone know what years had
> what?I kinda need to know cuz i have to find a rear pumkin to build for
> it and would like to find the correct flange to bolt up to his shaft.i
> really don't want to take the flange off the old front pumkin cuz thats
> our spare!
>
> Darren Floen
> 85 xtra cab
Brandon Miller
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 10:33:59 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Front Drive Shaft (measuring correctly when buying new one)
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
For everyone out there who might be upgrading there front drive shaft
because of a Marlin dual case or longer travel springs I found out that
the way I thought I should measure the length was the wrong way.
I thought that the front driveshaft would be the shortest at full
compression on the passenger side, therefore the longest length would be
at full droop on passenger. This is basically correct, it is just how
you get your droop and compression.
Lets see, full compression, lift left rear tire to stuff right front
into the fender. Full droop, lift right rear tire to fully droop right
front. There is one problem, when doing so you either compress or droop
the drivers side.
Whats the problem? Well if you have the passengers front tire at full
droop while having the drivers front at full compression your front axle
is at an angle, so as the drivers side comes out of compression the
front diff will drop down further.
I measured mine using the lift the rear tire method. When I went to
install it I had my truck on a lift with all tires drooping. My
driveshaft was about 2 inches too short for FULL droop (both tires off
the groung, possibly attaching a strap or something and pulling the axle
towards the floor as much as possible). Not only was my driveshaft too
short, my splines would now be to short for the difference between full
droop to full compression.
Well, even if I measured correctly the driveshaft shop used the wrong
flange to connect the driveshaft to the transfercase. So back to the
shop it goes.
I think lifting the left rear tire to compress the passenger front would
be good for checking short length. This because the diff is near the
passenger side and I would think it would be very unlikely to get both
front springs hitting their bumpstops (except maybe winching from a
point above what you are hooked to).
Hopefully no one else has done this. But, asking my friends what they
would do to measure the lengths they all thought the same thing.
Tony.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:15:25 -0700
From: Scott Muir
Subject: Center bearing???
To: "'Toy List'"
John Schultz wrote:
>I have a howl that is getting louder by the day. How do I troubleshoot
>the center bearing on the driveshaft
I had a problem with my centre bearing a while ago, but it was more like
a high pitched squeal than a roar though. I replaced the bearing after
eliminating my u-joints as a possible cause and hoping it wasn't my
diff or transfer case. I have to say I fluked on this one.
Have you tried coasting with your transfer in neutral to isolate this
as much as possible?
>Should there be any play in this at all?
The bearing is mounted in a rubber bushing, so it would be able to move
a bit.
According to the Factory manual, the test to see if it needs replacing is,
"Check that the bearing turns freely. If the bearing is damaged, worn or
does not turn free replace it."
Its possible your problem is in your rear-end somewhere. Check your diff
for oil level and contamination. You may also want to drain your diff fluid
through a filter and look at what comes out.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 22 Oct 1997 17:04:08 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Center bearing???
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:56 PM
OFFICE MEMO Center bearing??? Date: 10/22/97
John Schultz wrote:
>I have a howl that is getting louder by the day. How do I troubleshoot
>the center bearing on the driveshaft. I checked the U-Joints and they
>appear to be OK but I can move the driveshaft around in the bearing
>housing. Should there be any play in this at all? I hear kind of a
>metallic howling sound when moving, on my old B****R it was the rear
>U-Joint but this time I am not so sure.
The center bearing is actually a bearing that rides in a rubber
section that rides in a metal housing bolted to the frame.
Remove the two bolts and drop the center part of the driveshaft
along with the bearing. You can then check to see if the rubber
is torn and/or the bearing is dry/makes noise/or is plain loose
and worn out.
The bearing itself should not have play, but the driveshaft
can flex around some in the rubber section.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 10:57:00 -0500
From: Rosenberger Bud
Subject: Center bearing???
To: "mail@UUCP {Toy4x4@tlca.org}" ,
John, My center bearing went bad after 162K miles and I discovered it by
accident. It never made any noise but it moved around ALOT. Your
housing should be still attached to the rubber which is attached to the
bearing itself. My bearing ( the metal thing with balls in it) was
perfect.( anyone need one?) But the rubber that was supposed to hold it
to the housing was almost completely gone! The rubber attached to the
bearing could spin inside the rubber attached to the housing. It would
move around about an inch. Once I noticed it (visually) I could actually
feel it "wind up" when I pulled away from a start.
I got mine aftermarket for $125. I have a tip on removing the thing.
Mark the shaft to flange location on both ends of the shaft. Use a
centerpunch to prick marks or file a notch( paint and/or chalk wears off
just before you need it!) Then remove just the rear shaft bolts ( at
both ends by the u-joints ). Now you can "unpeen" the nut on the front
part of the shaft with a center punch. Mark the location of the shaft
and the flange. That is easier said than done because there is a fine
spline in there and if you are off one tooth, it will vibrate. (Don't
ask how I know!) Remove the nut, then the bolts that hold the housing on
and slide the whole thing off. You don't need to remove the front shaft
and keeping it attached helps you retorque it when re assembling. No
real tricks there.
Check how tight the nut that holds the flange to the pinion is. I
unpeened and retorqued mine as it was quite loose.
Any other questions, ask away while this is still fresh in my mind...
Bud
------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:15:44 -0400
From: Rod LaHaise
Subject: Front Drive shaft
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
>OK, so I take my front drive shaft off this past weekend to replace my
>u-joints (all three of them), only to find between the middle and back joint,
>there is a pinball size round ball thingie (Highly technical term!) that
rides
>on needle bearings. This little ball thing is bone dry, and has worn out the
>bowl-shaped area that it rides in.
>
>Stupid question time: Is this a CV joint? Has anyone ever heard of this
>ball thing??
It is a CV or double cardan joint. The ball rides on a pin that is part of
the drive shaft flange and it should have a bunch of tiny needle bearings
inside.
This ball keeps the two U-joints in alignment to prevent vibration, getting
grease into the ball usually requires a needle attachment on a grease gun
and because of this many people fail to grease it. Once you run it dry for
a while the needles fall apart and the pin in the flange wears out.
Every failed CV I have ever worked on required a new flange due to the worn
pin, and if it has gone far enough for the needle bearings to be gone you
probably need a new shaft since the ball/needles don't seem to be available.
Rod
- ---------------------------------------------------------
Rod LaHaise, New Brunswick, Canada. TLCA# 1682
lcruiser@nbnet.nb.ca www.off-road.com/~beck
Toyota Trails Tech Features editor,techfeatures@tlca.org
80 FJ-40, Fab Tech Tub 32's, winch
86 HJ-60, stock 30 mpg Shelley's daily driver
86 HJ-60, my new daily driver and upcoming battlewagon!
------------------------------
In a message dated 98-03-05 15:05:24 EST, James M. Zaehring writes:
>Toyota LIST,
>I need some help troubleshooting the bad vibrations that my '79 p/u is
>experiencing at 55mph on up! I had the u-joints checked out when I had the
>tires rotated AND balanced, they checked out fine. So I now have just had
>the tires balanced as well. The vibration is speed related, not engine rpm
>related because it only happens at 55mph on up. At 70 you can barely see
>straight. Also, I just drove it 3000 miles and at the beginning of the
>trip there was no vibration, but about 2000 miles into the trip, I found
>that all my transmission-transfer case bolts were finger tight and one
>had sheared. I replaced the sheared bolt and retorqued the rest. Now,
>it seems to be loosening again, and leaking fluid, maybe the result of
>the vibration. Could it somehow be the cause?
>
>So, I need ideas. What about transfer case bearings? Is there a way to
>check them? How can I find a good used transfer case? ANY IDEAS????
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:30:54 -0700
From: Tyghe Tordoff
Subject: BAD VIBES
To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"
Try checking the balance weights are still on the drums. Rarely do they
come off ,but it does happen. Also check for bent driveshaft`s. Bad
shocks will also contribute to wheel hop/shimmy. hope this helps.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:42:26 +0300
From: gfrancis@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: BAD VIBES!!!
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I had a bad vibration problem also- two bent wheels!
Bought some Alcoas ($$$), no more bent wheels.
- -Greg
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:24:51 EST
From: DRM033
Subject: BAD VIBES!!!
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I am no expert, but this type of vibration that can repeatedly loosen the
tranny bolts may be a problem with the engine or transmission internally.
Maybe someone else could dive into this.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
David Moore DRM033@aol.com
90 Toyota Truck - 4" ProComp, 33" Swampers,
4.88's, rear ARB, TJM bumper & Ramsey #8000
TLCA #5662
Traxx In Motion 4 Wheel Drive Club
www.netmatter.com/traxx
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Brandt
Subject: BAD VIBES!!!
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
you might want to make sure the mating surface of the u-joint is not bent
or dammaged.
Jon, Sacramento CA - jbrandt@csus.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:16:59 -0700
From: "Baltzly, Michael R(C05422)"
Subject: BAD VIBES!!!
To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"
As I posted on the list last week ("Worn transfer case causes
driveline vibration?"), I am also trying to fix a driveshaft/transfer
case vibration problem. If you are *positive* that your U-joints are
OK, then my guess in your case is that your driveshaft is the culprit.
Remove the shaft, take it to the best driveline shop in your area,
and have them check it for balance and runout. This costs about $45
around here. You may have bent the driveshaft, or one of the balance
weights may have come off.
I finally got rid of the majority of my vibration after having my
driveshaft straightened and balanced twice at the second shop I went
to. My truck is very sensitive to driveshaft balance compared to what
the shops seem to expect. They ended up welding on two additional
weights and straightening it to finally fix it, AFTER they originally
said that it was balanced. Tell your shop that you want a very
careful job of balancing and that you will pay a little extra for it
if necessary.
Since I think that the driveshaft is about as good as it is going to
get, I have decided to try to get rid of the last bit of vibration by
rebuilding the transfer case. I took the TC off and got it all apart.
All the gears and bearings look absolutely perfect. The output shaft
seemed a little loose, so I bought new bearings for $28 and $48. I
really can't tell that the new bearings are any tighter than the old
ones, but after all the work of getting it apart I want to at least
try something different. I'm waiting for a snap ring to arrive
tomorrow morning so I can finish putting it back together. I will
know this weekend whether I accomplished anything.
When I called around about used transfer cases I found plenty of them
for $150 to $200. This would be a great option if your transfer case
has major problems (noisy, won't shift, pieces of teeth in the
oil...). Since I am trying to cure a relatively subtle looseness
caused by wear, I didn't have any confidence that a used TC would be
any better than mine.
Mike
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:37:20 -0700
From: "Baltzly, Michael R(C05422)"
Subject: FW: BAD VIBES!!!
To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"
Here's something else that I forgot to mention in my last posting.
Check the chunk of rubber that is inbetween the frame crossmember and
the bottom of the transfer case. If it is badly cracked then there is
nothing securing the rear of your transmisson/transfer case assembly.
You could securely support the transmisson on blocks and unbolt the
crossmember to wiggle the rubber isolator.
Mike
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:23:04 -0700
From: "Adam Jenn"
Subject: 83 front shaft
As requested here are the #'s for the 83 front shaft,again all #'s are
Rockford
U-joint#1510-1
Stud flange#415
Weld yoke#419
Bolt flange yoke# 422 1 7/8"height to bearing
H-yoke 1st gen.#486 2 13/16 centre distance
and yes it is Ray(work e-mail account)
home is raymondkumar@sprint.ca
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:07:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: davekimm@webtv.net (david meador)
Subject: CURE FOR DRIVE LINE VIBRATION
I found a great fix for lifted toyotas that develop drive line
Vibration & eat the front u-joint in the rear driveshaft.
I bought a used toyota front driveshaft from a salvage yard.
There is a dual cadan cv joint on the trans. case end.
Have it retubed to the same length as the rear.
Replace the drive flange on the rear of the transfer case with one like
the front has . The only difference between the two flanges is
a slight difference in the bolt pattern were the driveshaft bolts to the
flange.
I have run this setup on my 85 4runner with 36x12.50 swampers and
5.29 gears and a detroit in rear and ARB in front for three years and
haven't had to replace a u-joint yet.
dave meador
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Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 09:48:33 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Uni Angles
>So what is ideal when you have a double cardinan at the gearbox end ?
Is a good Idea to have the angles the same. It doesn’t really matter if
one end is a uni and the other is a DC joint. A Uni is an unbalanced
joint. The forces travel in an oblong shape. When you have 2 uni’s you
offset them by 90Deg to balance them angst each other. However this is
not perfect and is a reason for Tcase seal failures. As for the 2 piece
rear shaft. The Toy solution to isolate the Tcase was to have the Tcase
with a constant force (intermediate shaft) and to balance the vibrations
with the centre bearing. It’s about a ½ solution. A better solution is
to add a uni to the splined end of the intermediate shaft. This was not
done due to increased production costs. The best solution for drive
shafts is to have double cardinan on both ends of the shaft. That said
the next best is to have one double cardinan and one uni. With a single
uni the best thing is to set the Uni angle at 0deg (at rest) and take up
the rest on the double cardinan.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
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Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 15:23:41 -0800
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: Re: Why the double-cardan joint? Long
>Perhaps it has to do with economics. The driveshaft is essentially the
>same as a solid axle driveshaft, with minor differences year to year,
>right? So Toyota was still producing solid axle trucks for the rest of the
>world, and so they probably had loads of these driveshafts sitting around.
Nope the solid axle shaft looks the same and it is hard to tell the
difference but it will not work on a solid axle. The slip joint is much
shorter and the double-cardian joint will not droop far enough to connect
to the front diff. I will have to replace my front drive shaft during my up
coming solid axle swap. Jon at All Pro and others have told me that the
stock drive shaft can only be used on the street. As soon as you go off
road or get a little flex it will come apart and/or bind the double cardan
joint. The solid axle double cardian casing is cut differently to allow
more movement.
The reason for the double cardian joint is just basic drive-line design rules.
Rule #1 If you have two single U joints on a drive shaft they must be
within a very few degrees angle of each other otherwise you get vibration.
Rule #2 if you can't do rule #1 then use a CV or double cardian joint on
one end and point the diff as strait as possible toward the CV joint.
Toyota figures that most people are going to use 2WD most of the time and
optimized the engine/tranny and transfer case for the best rear drive
shaft angle. On the rear drive shaft rule #1 applies (on stock trucks).
There are two Ujoints on the rear shaft and both are at about the same angle.
Thats all fine and dandy for the rear but that leaves the front angle all
wrong. Look at the front tcase output, it points up so that the rear shaft
output in in the ideal position for the rear drive shaft.
So the front shaft output flange is now pointing up. So what angle would
the front diff need to be at in order to apply rule #1? Answer: It would
need to point down in order to cancel drive line vibration.
The second problem is the angle the front drive line needs to come out in
order to meet the front diff is a little bit high for a single U joint so....
Toyota kills two problems by using the CV joint. First the two U joints
that make up a double cardian joint each take 1/2 of the angle that is
needed to get to the front diff. The second problem it solves is the rear
diff can now point slightly up instead of down to get the best alignment.
Looking at the front diff you can see the drive shaft comes straight out
from it with very little angle until it gets to the double cardian joint.
the The joint take all the angle that is needed to get to the tcase.
When you add a 4" lift to the front end you may notice a lot of vibration,
that is because the front U joint is now at an angle without a matching U
joint on the other side to cancel it out.
So to make a 4" lifted IFS truck front end work at speed without vibration
you need to have a custom built drive shaft with CV joints on both ends.
- --
Chris Geiger
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Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:59:04 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Re: Why the double-cardan joint?
>Why did Toyota use the double cardan joint to the IFS pumpkin instead
of just two u-joints?
Two reasons. First the angle at the Tcase is too severs for a uni as the
angle changes radically with front axle travel due to the action of the
shackles behind the spring and the shortness of the shaft. Second is the
crossmember clearance a unit found allow the shaft to contact the
crossmember. Moving the crossmember would add additional cost to the
vehicle production
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:47:47 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: IFS-non axles
"Brandon Miller" wrote:
>1 - what is the easiest way to solve the difference in bolt patters in the
>pre 84 to post 84 drivelines to third member mountings. I'd rather not pull
>the plate unless that is the easiest way..
If you're refering to the mismatched driveshaft flange to third member flange,
just rotate the two 45 deg to each other and drill a second bolt pattern in the
third member flange. I did this on my front t-case flange so I can run either
a CV driveshaft or regular u-joint driveshaft.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
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