Differentials - Gear Ratios
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:26:21 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron or Lori Hryniuk)
Subject: Gears too low.
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
Hey Mike:
>From: mike@headwaters.com
>Subject: Gears too low.
Firstly your gears are not too low. There is NO SUCH THING in a LandCruiser.
So to answer your last question first:
> Are there any easy answers?
You are calculating the wrong numbers and are calling them the wrong thing.
Keep your head on man, this is the *real* world. Crunching numbers does NOT
give you all the right answers. You must use *real world* information.
Besides...you hve too much time on your hands if you are worried about all
of this stuff. Do you think that Toyota wouyld ever sell an vehicle with a
"top speed" of 71Km/h?? Nope.
I think that if you look at the torque curve for the 3B you will find that,
for all intent and purpose, it is flat--with a slight drop after 3000Rpm
and a sharp drop well after the operational red-line has been reached.
> I was just doing some calculations. My top gear torque peak is at
>about 71 km/h. That's about 45 mph. Top gear, dammit. I need
>bigger tires. My tires are just a hair less than 28" across. Not
>sufficient. If I go to 32" tires, that will bump my top speed up to
>about 82km/h (50mph). Still not really giving me many thrills. To
>get a top economical speed of 110km/h (~68mph) I would need to run
>'44s. Yeah, right. 8-/ Not gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent.
Why don't you just go with 32s/33s as we discussed months ago. 33X9.50s
would suite your snow plowing well.
> So maybe it's time to look into an overdrive. With 32" tires and an
>H55F gearbox/tcase I would be seeing 95km/h (~60mph) at the torque
>peak. Not bad. My crawl ratio would even drop a bit. Now, if I
>could put on an H55F and *keep* my 4-speed tcase, that would be the
>sweetest of all possible worlds, except perhaps for using an H55F
>with a H150F tcase...
You can swap in the gears from your 4 speed transfer case. The main
diffrence in the transfer case is the casings themselves as they are
different for the 5th gear (have oilers, bearing and seal differences--NOT
possible to change the old to fit new).
Your 3B can run up to 3600 RPM with no trouble, although I wouldn't suggest
you leave it there all day. With 28inch tires (that get bigger in dia as
they spin) you can go about 120 Kmh. I used to sit at 110 for extrended
periodsd with the 4 speed. Relax. Have another beer.
> Anyway, what are the suggestions? I've got a 3B engine, which I
>know buggers up the swapping, but should I look to non-Toyota boxes
>to get the *economical* road speeds that I want without sacrificing
>too much of my crawl ratio?
THERE ARE NO NON-TOYOTA GEAR BOXES TO FIT THE B/3B!!! No one makes an
adapter bellhousing. Deal with it.
Do I have to repeat this again...I am starting to sound like a stuck
record. I am quite sure that anyone who has been on this list for a while
knows this fact.
>Need the crawl for the bush. Not fun
>skidding logs without a slow crawl.
The stock ratio you have might be called a "crawl" ratio as it is yor
lowest gear BUT it is not *really* a crawl. It's not even all that slow.
>I'm already going to lose some
>by going to '32s (which I really need to do anyway; the truck looks
>goofy with these 28s on it). Right now granny low peaks at under
>10km/h (that's about 6 miles an hour, folks!). Love the crawl in the
>bush. Hate the crawl on the highway. 8-)
I don't think that you are being even the slightest bit sensible Mike. You
can break any speed limit in Canada if you want. I have had my BJ, in stock
config, up to 140Kmh--that's faster than you need to go..
> Oh yeah, I've got an H42 tranny, and it's an '81, so I have the 19
>spline shaft on a split t/case. Might make life easier.
- ----------------
J Albrecht tried to be helpful:
>> I'd look into the good 'ol NV4500. check around, they're about 1000-1600
>> bucks, and real tough. Anything else would probably end up being more in
>> the longrun.
>
> Do you happen to know what the gear ratios are on the NV4500? I've
>heard of it, but I've never seen the specs. Does it mate vaguely
>well with Toyota equipment? I'm sure Mark's or somebody makes an
>adapter for the 2F, but does anyone make an adapter for the 3B?
First gear is either a 5.6 or a 6.34. Top gear is about .75:1. There are
no adapters for this to the B series diesels. You have to go with stock
trannies. You can get the transer to trans adapter for the NV with your
split case. (and again) No one makes an adapter bellhousing. Make your own
belhousing...
>> Personally, I'd try the larger tires first, and if you're still unhappy
>> with the highway gearing, then go for something like the NV4500.
JA is quite right. Stop whinning and get the bigger dia tires. 32s are good
and so are 33s.
> I'm certainly going to do the tires first. I'll slap in some
>235/85-R16s and see what happens. Or maybe some 32x9 BFG MTs. I'll
>have to see the tread first. The BFG would be cheaper because I
>wouldn't have to buy new rims, but the 235/85-R16s would be real
>truck tires, and therefore easier to find places to properly remold
>them etc.
>
>> suppose you could also try swapping in an old 4spd granny *and* installing
>> higher r&p's...but I think this would probably cost as much or more
>> though.
>
> I'd *really* rather avoid the r&p thing.
The R&P thing (3.70 instead of the 4.11s) would be like slapping on a set
of 33s with your 4.11s. And remeber: by going to bigger tires/taller gears
your speedo will read the same for a given RPM but you will be going
faster. Enough said.
j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:23:29 +0000
From: mike@headwaters.com
Subject: Gears too low.
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
> Besides...you hve too much time on your hands if you are worried about all
> of this stuff. Do you think that Toyota wouyld ever sell an vehicle with a
> "top speed" of 71Km/h?? Nope.
Boy, you're really looking to make some friends, eh? You should
write a book. 8-) I was referring to the 'peak efficiency' speed,
not the top speed. The top speed would be the maximum speed
attainable by the engine when properly governed to 4100 rpm or
whatever, and that would be in the neighbourhood of 150km/h with my
tires (in a vacuum chamber 8-).
> for all intent and purpose, it is flat--with a slight drop after 3000Rpm
> and a sharp drop well after the operational red-line has been reached.
Yeah, I just got a copy of the curve from Rod LaHaise, and it
showed that. With 3000rpm as a reasonable upper limit for fuel
economy, I can go about 105km/h with no big penalties. Nice. Keep
in mind that most of my in-depth engine experience is with two-stroke
motorcycle engines that have a redline of 14,000 rpm, and a torque
curve that drops like a cliff. It's a different world, so I was
looking for information about *this* world.
> Why don't you just go with 32s/33s as we discussed months ago. 33X9.50s
> would suite your snow plowing well.
Yeah, '32s are what I'm going to look at. 32x9.5 BFGs, or some
Cooper 235/85-R16s, depending on whether I want to spend the money on
new rims or not. As I mentioned, I bought the truck with new snow tires
on it, so I can't justify spending the money yet. In the spring I
will.
> Your 3B can run up to 3600 RPM with no trouble, although I wouldn't suggest
> you leave it there all day. With 28inch tires (that get bigger in dia as
> they spin) you can go about 120 Kmh. I used to sit at 110 for extrended
> periodsd with the 4 speed.
3600 rpm would be over 130km/h on my tires. I haven't driven that
fast in years. Nice to know it can take it, though.
> Relax. Have another beer.
I don't drink, but thanks for the thought.
> THERE ARE NO NON-TOYOTA GEAR BOXES TO FIT THE B/3B!!! No one makes an
> adapter bellhousing. Deal with it.
I am currently under the impression that the 19 spline H50 or M50
|from a Dyna truck would fit. I could be wrong. I'm sure you'll let
me know if I am. Being as the 3B wasn't made by Toyota, I kind of
figured that maybe there might be a box or two out there that would
slap on.
> The stock ratio you have might be called a "crawl" ratio as it is yor
> lowest gear BUT it is not *really* a crawl. It's not even all that slow.
I don't need to outcrawl a unimog, I just need to be able to go
slow enough to pay attention to the logs. It'll go slow enough that
it doesn't register on the speedometer. That's slow enough for me.
> I don't think that you are being even the slightest bit sensible Mike. You
> can break any speed limit in Canada if you want. I have had my BJ, in stock
> config, up to 140Kmh--that's faster than you need to go..
Yes, that *is* faster than I need to go. Now that Rod LaHaise has
so graciously sent me a GIF of the torque curve, I know this. And he
didn't even beat me over the head with it. He's such a good sport
about stuff like that.
> The R&P thing (3.70 instead of the 4.11s) would be like slapping on a set
> of 33s with your 4.11s. And remeber: by going to bigger tires/taller gears
> your speedo will read the same for a given RPM but you will be going
> faster. Enough said.
More than enough.
/---------------------------------------------------/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:17:35 +0000
From: "Mike Graham"
Subject: Gearing
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
> convert to either 4.56 or 4.88 gears. The 4.56 are the more conservative
> replacement, but I've heard that moving to 4.88 makes the truck perform
> even better in *any* environment. Is this accurate?
No. Going from 4.10 to 4.88 is about a 15% change in gearing.
Expect your top speed to drop by 15% from where it is now. Since an
R&P swap (you have to change front *and* back) can set you back $1000
or so, you will probably want to look into some engine mods first,
and hope that you can squeak some ponies out of the engine to make
the R&P swap unnecessary.
>I am concerned that
> the 4.88 will be too short, keeping this in mind: the truck is my daily
> driver, I like to cruise above 70 on the IH, I dont do any serious rock
> crawling. However, I'm concerned about the load on my 5sp tranny w/ taller
> gears and I am tired of burning up my clutch.
The gears in the diff have no effect on the tranny.
Assuming your stock tires were 28" or so (225/75-R15s) you have
increased your tire size by about 10%. If you increase your R&P
gears by 10% to 4.56 will put you back where you started from as far
as torque and top speed is concerned.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 9:49:28 -0600
From: "Jay Kopycinski%teqmg"
Subject: '88 4Runner gearing
To: "TLCAL@tlca.org%azbcsm1"
Subject: Time: 8:13 AM
OFFICE MEMO '88 4Runner gearing Date: 11/12/96
gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg S. Francis) wrote:
>I'm new to the list, and I thought I'd start off by asking the question
>that currently haunts me. I have owned an '88 4Runner with the 2.4L
>four-banger for 3 1/2 years now. It has 2" of lift and 31" tires. I find
>this to be a practical combination and will most likely not increase ride
>height or tire size. I have only recently begun using the truck in more
>serious off road situations and it has become *vividly* appearant that it
>is time to change my final drive ratio. I have been suffering along with
>the stock 4.10 gears since I bought the Toy, and I have been advised to
>convert to either 4.56 or 4.88 gears. The 4.56 are the more conservative
>replacement, but I've heard that moving to 4.88 makes the truck perform
>even better in *any* environment. Is this accurate?
Going to 4.88s with the 31s will make your engine spin a little faster
than stock at all speeds, but it sure helps overcome the added weight
and inertia of the 31s. I swapped to 4.88s when I was running 31s and
was very pleased with the results. If you plan to stay at 31s, I would
tweak the engine before I'd swap the 4.56s. Though I think swapping to
4.88s would be the best overall.
>I am concerned that
>the 4.88 will be too short, keeping this in mind: the truck is my daily
>driver, I like to cruise above 70 on the IH, I dont do any serious rock
>crawling.
It'll spin faster, but you'll still be able to do 70...spinning about 3700
rpm.
>However, I'm concerned about the load on my 5sp tranny w/ taller
>gears and I am tired of burning up my clutch.
It is hard on the clutch if you slip it a lot.
>In searching for a possible solution, I have also learned that some '89-'96
>PUs and 4Runners came w/ a 4.87 rear end. Is this axle substitutible for
>mine? Is it an adviseable (read: easier, cheaper) swap?
Some '88-'94 trucks came with 4.88s from the factory. You *might* be
able to find some, but it won't be easy. Note too....the third member is
different on the factory 4.88 sets and will not accept any other gear
ratio. Also, the factory 4.88 gears will not work in your third member.
The pinion position is different.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:00:25 -0500
From: Michael Greenway
Subject: Reply to gearing
To: gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Greg..
Been there, done that.
The 4-Runner is underpowered with the 2.4L. I have a 86 and I upgraded
to a 30x9.50 BFG and noticed the difference. It never goes offroad and
is a daily driver also. If I was to upgrade I would go to the 4.88 diff for
the fact that I plan on going to a 33" tire. The newer 4-Runners came
with 4.88's when you ordered the 31" tire and a automatic. As far as
getting more horsepower you may be limited by your local emisions laws.
If is a EFI that will make it more expensive. For EFI you can add a header
and a KN airfilter. For more money you can get a set of balanced
injectors, a larger air flow meter, a processor chip upgrade, and a ported
air plenum. The last stuff is expensive. If you are carburated you can
change the cam, add a header, and a better carburator. For a little more
you can go to a 20R head and start pumping Hi octane gas.
I have a 81 mini with a 22R. The first thing I did was add 4.88 gears to
overcome the larger tires and I could pass cars in 5th gear! The motor
has been bored 1mm oversize (now a 2.5L), has a low range cam, a
30lb flywheel, 38mm Weber, a header, and a KN air filter. If you do your
mods yourself you can save a heap of money. The R&P I did myself and
they cost me $250 a diff. The rest of the stuff cost much more.
If you only have problems when wheeling get a dual transfer case from
Marlin and then you can shift in the extra low range when you need it.
His number is (209)252-7295.
Good Luck.
Michael Greenway TLCA#3000
76 FJ40, 81 mini, 86 4-Runner (the 1st two with Marlin's)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:09:00 +1100
From: "Jones, Andrew AL"
Subject: gears/tore 4 teeth just driving down the road
To: "'Toy4x4 List'"
David:
>>About the loss of strength with lower gears, I know this is true...
>> I tore 4 teeth off my rear pinion gear (4.88s) while
>>just driving down the road. I still can't figure out how I did it.
>>The only reasons I can figure are:
>>1. Improper set-up
>>2. A flaw in the metal
>>3. Stress from use
Norman:
>I would vote for #3. .
> The stress could have happened a long time ago,
>causing a hairline crack in the base of the tooth which
> just took some time to spread
>the rest of the length of the base...
Obviously any of these factors (or others) could have contributed, but I
thinks it's most likely that Norman's ideas are on the right track. I
have done a lot of work with gear manufacture and failure analysis and
fatigue failure is the dominant failure mode in such components. The
nature of fatigue failure is that a crack grows very slowly with each
successive torsional loading (each revolution) from a small surface
stress concentration. This may be a very small surface crack, dent,
nick from manufacture, installation, an overload, wear or anything.
Even without a defect a stress concentration occurs at the root of a
gear tooth and poor set-up (alignment/backlash) can preferentially load
these areas.
Over time (revolutions) the crack grows through the component, reducing
the load bearing area of the tooth/shaft. Commonly the crack will grow
3/4 of the way across the tooth base or shaft diameter before the
remaining metal fails. Final failure generally occurs under loading
that would be 2-3 times less those than necessary to damage the
component in prime condition. Although this final fracture usually
occurs under highish loadings (like jamming into reverse) it can also
occur under "just driving down the road".
Fatigue failure has a very characteristic fracture surface and is
relatively easy to identify, but without seeing the broken teeth your
case sounds fairly typical of this type of failure. This might explain
why failure occurred under normal driving conditions (we are generally
talking about hundreds of thousand revolutions). It also highlights the
importance correct setup and not ignoring minor damage on gears, axles,
shafts and such rotating components subjected to stress in service
(often caused by the "get a bigger hammer" installation technique).
Andrew
B. Eng. (Materials Engineering - Metallurgy - 1st class Hons.)
Masters of Steel Processing.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:36:26 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: ring and pinion strength
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
NWOR used to have a percent chart that should how much weaker the lower
gear ratios would be. I think the biggest thing is getting them set up
correctly. Marlin Czajkowski (Marlin Crawler fame) runs 5.29:1 with 35
inch tires, does a lot of hard core wheeling, drive to and from events
in his truck and has (according to him) broken his rear diff once. If
anyone cares he also runs a 1007:1 low range, his weakest link are the
birfield joints in the front axles.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 96 08:46:58 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Subject: gears and tires
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>My brother has an 87 4Runner with a 22RE, 5spd, and 4.10 gears. He
>wants to put 33" tires on it and we are not sure what the best gears
>would be. We're thinking 4.88s or 5.29. Can anyone give me some pros
>and cons of these gears and do they wine?
Gearing definately brings back some of the lost mechanical advantage... for his
setup 4.88's would bring the gearing back to near stock, and 5.29's would give
him better low-end power, but have a little higher RPM on the highway (also the
speedometer would be off a little). The gears shouldn't whine if set up
properly... My 5.29's don't whine and never have in 30K miles of driving... - I
assume he has a lift if he is trying to fit 33" tires?
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: 30 Dec 1996 08:07:53 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: gears and tires
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 7:41 AM
OFFICE MEMO gears and tires Date: 12/30/96
Rob Guy wrote:
>My brother has an 87 4Runner with a 22RE, 5spd, and 4.10 gears. He
>wants to put 33" tires on it and we are not sure what the best gears
>would be. We're thinking 4.88s or 5.29. Can anyone give me some pros
>and cons of these gears and do they wine? Our attempt is to bring the
>driveability back to what it was with stock tires. FWIW we just rebuilt
>the engine(pistons, rings, and bore), installed a Downey cam, and Downey
>header.
First, with larger tires you can recover the engine speed by swapping gears.
However, you can never really recover all the driveability you had with the
stock tires.
With the 18% 5 speed overdrive and using 33" nominal tire size, you engine
speed with 4.88s will be 2649, and with 5.29s will be 2872, at 65 mph.
If you like to drive 75mph on the highway, the 5.29s will be spinning the
engine a bit fast and your gas mileage will suffer a bit. But.....the in town
driveability will be a little better.
5.29s though will be a weaker gear set than the 4.88s.
If it were me, I'd go with the 4.88s.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 12:47:50 -0800
From: Eric Johnson
Subject: Gears and tires
To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"
> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 00:39:49 -0600
> From: Rob Guy
> Subject: gears and tires
> To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
>
> My brother has an 87 4Runner with a 22RE, 5spd, and 4.10 gears. He
> wants to put 33" tires on it and we are not sure what the best gears
> would be. We're thinking 4.88s or 5.29. Can anyone give me some pros
> and cons of these gears and do they wine? Our attempt is to bring the
> driveability back to what it was with stock tires.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think 4.88s are plenty of gear
if you want stock RPM characteristics. 33s are about 32.5 inches,
stock tires on that rig are about 28 inches (225/75R15), so
the math is: (32.5/28)*4.10 = ~4.75... 4.88s seem to be closest.
I think 5.29 would be way off for 33s.
But then you gotta figure static loaded radius, etc... and I'm running stock
tire size myself, so someone who has actually done a r/p swap should
be able to give you better advice.
>FWIW we just rebuilt
> the engine(pistons, rings, and bore), installed a Downey cam, and Downey
> header.
How do like the Downey cam?
- --
- -- ej@blarg.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 16:40:05 -0800
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: gears and tires
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
In answer to Rob Guy's question :
4.88 gears are perfect for 32" tires, it would bring the overall drive-train
ratio right back to stock, and the speedo would be accurate again. With 33's
the speedo will under-read a bit, and a slight loss of power. However, the
improvements your brother has made would more than make up for it. 4.88 gears
are stronger than 5.29's , also. Unless you can get gears made at around 5.05,
your speedo will always be off a bit.
With 5.29's, your performance will be great, but mileage will be worse, and you
will have weaker gears (that could break under a large, or shock-type load).
What matters , is what is more important to your bro.
##################################################################
Rick Murray 84 Toyota 4Runner SR5
( rmurray@gvn.net ) stock 22R motor ; 3" ProComp Lift
Rancho Cordova, Ca. 8" steel rims; 33" BFG M/Ts
www.gvn.net/~rmurray/ 4.88 gears; Marlin TCase #67 ; TRD LSD
##################################################################
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 20:02:24 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: gears and tires
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Rob Guy wrote:
>My brother has an 87 4Runner with a 22RE, 5spd, and 4.10 gears. He
>wants to put 33" tires on it and we are not sure what the best gears
>would be. We're thinking 4.88s or 5.29. Can anyone give me some pros
>and cons of these gears and do they whine? Our attempt is to bring the
>drivability back to what it was with stock tires. FWIW we just rebuilt
>the engine (pistons, rings, and bore), installed a Downey cam, and Downey
>header.
The first question you should ask yourself is, "Are 33" tires going to be
the largest size tire I will ever put on this IFS 4Runner?" If your answer
is yes, and it most probably is ('cause you'll probably end up fitting 31's
or maybe 32's at the largest), then I would go with the 4.88's. Reasons:
1) Highway RPM @ 70 mph: 4.88's: about 3000 rpm
5.29's: about 3700 rpm
2) 5.29's are next weakest r&p setup that you can get (besides 5.71).
3) You'll probably end up with a 31 or 32" tire anyway, and a 5.29 is WAY
too short for that setup.
- Nick
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ 1981 Toyota 4WD SR5 Pickup 4.88 gears /
/ Bone-stock 22R motor 5-speed trans \
\ Detroit TrueTrac front Detroit Locker rear /
/ 3" Downey front springs with 9" travel kit \
\ 3" Rancho rear springs with 10" travel kit /
/ 2 9" Doetsch-Tech MV-12's per front wheel \
\ 2 10" Doetsch-Tech MV-12's per rear wheel /
/ 33x12.50-15 Dueler AT's 15x8.5 CenterLines \
\ Hella 500 front and Hella FF rear lights /
/ Smittybilt front and rear bumpers, & nerfs \
\ 14 gallon auxiliary gas tank in-cab cage /
/ Cerullo seats No chrome whatsoever \
\ Brahma shell TRW/Sabelt 4-point belts /
/ Momo wheel Sony CD player/Infinity spkrs \
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
also...
1993 Mazda Miata 1993 Honda XR150R
1995 KTM 550 MX/C 1995 KTM 660 Dakar Rallye
1997 KTM 300 EX/C 1997 KTM 620ES Duke
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 00:21:17 -0800 (PST)
From: TOM ROMPIES
Subject: tires and gears
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Rob in regard to your question about gears for your toy. I had an '85
with the 22re and 5 spd. When I went to 33's I installed 5.29's.
If you do alott of rocking I would suggest these, but if you do mostly
on road an the occasional off-road I would suggest 4.88's.
With the mods you made you should have plenty of power to move your
truck. The reason I don't recommend the 5.29's for every day is that
they are a litlle to high for the tranny. If I recall right I was
running about 3500 rpm at 55-60. One day coming back from skiing
I hit about 100 mph (way to fast but we were racing and I was stupid)
anyway I blew out my rear. Made it home barely to find my r&p thrased
and a hole in my case. With the 5.29's crawling is great but no high
speeds. Remember the higher the number the more fragile the gears get.
I am getting ready to do the gears in my '91 4runner and will go with
4.88's and 33's. As for the wining I really could not tell you I
ussualy had the top of and the stereo cranked or the soft top on with
the same volume on the stereo. Carefully consider your needs, if you
just want the stock gearing back 4.88's, if you are into crawling and
rocking 5.29's. Let me know what you decide and how you like it.
Tom Rompies romps@earthlink.net
Taste death, live life.
TOM ROMPIES
E-mail romps@earthlink.net
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:23:33 -0600
From: "Brian G. Mess"
Subject: Clutches, Gearing and IFS lockrite ???
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
twogrls@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> I need to change the clutch my plan is to use the SC clutch from Downey it
> has more low end holding power than the double friction and costs about a
> third less.
> Has anyone tried these clutches? Any oponions?
I have a Downey SuperClutch in my 88 4Runner w/ V6. It runs great and
gives me plenty of holding power w/o taking a lot of leg strength to
engage it.
> I am thinking about changing the gears while I have the drive shafts off. I have a >1994 extended cab pickup with a four cylinder 22RE engine,the tires
> have been changed to 31" x 10.5 BFG T/A from the stock 28" Brigestones.
> Looking at the chart in the Downey catelog I should switch to 4.56 gears.
I put 31" x 10.5 BFG AT on my 4Runner and installed 4.88 gears. I love
them. I have the power to run up hills in 5th gear w/o having to shift
to 4th gear. It gives great power off road with plenty of low speed
control. I run about 3600 rpm at 75 mph on the interstate and get about
18 mpg with this ring and pinion set. In my opinion 4.88's are the only
way to go, especially w/ the 4 cylinder.
Brian
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:05:39 -0500 (EST)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Gearing
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
When I put my 4.88's in before the lift, I still had the 31's on. I agree
that the power was there ( I have a 4 cyl though) but I found highway
cruising to wind my engine out a bit too much. I would say go with the 4.56
gears to get a better overall driving performance. I really like my truck
now with 4.88's and 33 in. tires.
Also, when you figured the MPG, did you account for the tire and R&P change
when you figured that? I think the odometer is a little off with that setup.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:32:16 -0500
From: critchpw@craft.camp.clarkson.edu
Subject: My 2 cents
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Addressing the question about Skyjacker Springs and their stiffness and
articulation- the springs themselves are good quality, but expect to feel
*every* bump on the road. I went with the Nitro shocks, but looking back,
I should have stuck with Hydros. Toy trucks just aren't heavy enough to
warrant the use of these shocks.
Also,with the issue of regearing to go to bigger tires... There are pluses
and minuses. You get the look, added ground clearance,etc. Also, certain
parts will actually last longer because they turn less revolutions now
than before. i.e. wheel bearings. On the flip side, every time you start
out from a stop, youare putting much more stress on the tranny,U-joins,
and ring gear.
I've run 33's for over a year with 4.10 gears, and haven't had any problems,
and that counts the 15,000 miles the truck has put on in that year. I may
have problems in the future without a gear swap for the reasons I outlined.
I domoderate off-roading, and the truck handles fine. Plenty of power (though
a 4.3 would be nice).
Basically, it comes down to how you drive. If you hammer it off the line
everytime, you WILL do heavy damage, and this is amplified with bigger tires.
If you do a lot of highway driving, I wouldn't worry about it.
- -Paul
------------------------------
Date: 22 Jan 1997 13:44:34 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Questions on 3" lift
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:47 AM
OFFICE MEMO Questions on 3" lift Date: 1/22/97
Dion Hollenbeck wrote:
snip
>IMHO, having large tires without regearing is the fastest way to trash
>your truck. You may be able to get by with 31s, but as you get up to
>32s and 33s, the possibility of prematurely wearing out your entire
>drive train increases.
I agree with this in general, but can say from experience that running
up to 33s does not have a significant affect on drivetrain wear.
I have 178k on my truck, 65k of that with a 4.3l V6 in it. I have run
everything from stock to 33s. I have had 4.88s for the last 150k miles
or so, but am still runnning the original front and rear wheel bearings
and have not seen excessive wear on u-joints, gears, etc. Toyota
overdesigned the live axle trucks and they are very reliable.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:30:40 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: 36" Swampers
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Jeremy W. Hartlaub wrote:
I'm looking to do an engine swap in my '89 pickup.
Right now it's running 36" Super Swampers with
the standard 4.11 gears. It's been on 36's since 90K
(it's now got 135K), and I have no problems, except,
as you can imagine, the old 22RE just can't cut it
any more. I was thinking a chevy or buick V6, because
the kits and engines are readily available. Also,
I was hoping to not have to replace the entire
drivetrain. The truck gets a lot of offroad use,
but I don't want to kill my highway mileage (17mpg
with the 22RE). Does anybody have experience with
any of the swaps I mentioned, or any others? What's
involved? Approximate cost? I'll be doing the work
myself, so the easier, the better.
The only swap I would recommend would be a ring and pinion change to a 5.29
ratio, along with a rebuild kit. You would not believe the difference that
a properly geared final-drive makes. Parts should run $500, labor (3rd
member out) $150-200. I would do this before I attempted an engine swap.
Good luck,
- Nick
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 27 Jan 1997 09:37:28 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: 36" Swampers
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:32 AM
OFFICE MEMO 36" Swampers Date: 1/27/97
nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest) wrote:
>The only swap I would recommend would be a ring and pinion change to a 5.29
>ratio, along with a rebuild kit. You would not believe the difference that
>a properly geared final-drive makes. Parts should run $500, labor (3rd
>member out) $150-200. I would do this before I attempted an engine swap.
One caution when doing this is that you may find the stock gears more
appropriate after swapping in a V6 or V8. It might be worth your while to
carefully plan ahead at this point to help ensure you don't have to swap
gears twice. Also, 5.29s will be weaker then numerically lower ratio sets.
You should also be able to get a third member set up for about $75-100
(third member carry-in) labor.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:18:32 -0500 (EST)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: set-up costs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-01-27 11:58:45 EST, you write:
> You should also be able to get a third member set up for about $75-100
> (third member carry-in) labor.
>
It cost me $300 to get F & R set up, along with the ARB. That was drive
in, and pick up - they did all the work. The guy also repacked my front
bearings, no charge. I drove two hours to Alabama for what I consider a
pretty good deal.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:13:59 -0600
From: "Brian G. Mess"
Subject: None
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Roubinet, Paul @ SLG wrote:
> 1. I have 31 X10.5 tires with 4.10:1 gears, would 4.88:1 be too low for
> daily road driving?
I have an 88 4Runner w/ V6 and 31" tires w/ 4.88 gears: 74 mph at 3600
rpm.
gives great torque and power in 5th gear. Runs about 400 rpm higher
than with 4.56 gears. You have to decide what is good for you.
Brian
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:17:13 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: gearing
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Ryan Merrell wrote:
"...33 x 12.5 x 15 tires. It has the stock
5 spd. manual tranny, and I need to know what
gear ratio to change the rear end to. I am
wanting to acheive better mid to upper range
power, 5th gear is almost useless..."
To regain stock performance (3000 rpm @ 65 mph) - 4.88 gears.
For less highway rpm (~2800 rpm @ 65 mph) - 4.56 gears.
For hard-core off-roading (unless you put in a Crawler) - 5.29 gears.
Don't forget the rebuild kit!
Good luck
- Nick
TLCA #5301
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:29:44 CST6
From: "Barczak James"
Subject: Weaker gears???
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I just wanted to put my 2 cents in on the higher gears mean weaker
gears argument...
First, more torque is transmitted through the gears, (speed is
sacrificed for torque). This means that more force is then
tranmitted to the gears/bearings. A simple free body diagram shows
this.
Second, more force on gears may cause quicker failures (intuitively
obvious). assuming material conditions are the same
Finally and most important, even though the higher gears may be
tranmitting more force and torque, they can still be as strong as the
stock gears if the material, material treatment, and quality of the
gears are designed right. The stock factory Toy gears may have a
cheaper material and process, whereas a taller aftermarket gear (even
though it is trasmitting torque) may have a more expensive material
and treatment, giving it the same strength/factor of saftey as the
stock gear.
however, an aftermarket gear manufacturer may cut
corners on the design and material to save money. They would sell a
weaker gear, which may fail. If you were bought the weaker gear and
it failed, you would most likely blame the higher gear ratio, when in
fact it would be the materials/design to blame.
these are just facts to keep in mind when choosing an aftermarket
gear. I am definately going to thoroughly research the company i buy
my gears from when i re-gear my truck
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 01:53:43 -0500 (EST)
From: BCSTOY@aol.com
Subject: Weaker gears???
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Just a suggestion, why don't the guys that have replaced the factory gears
do a posting on prices, brand, tire size and lenght of time the gears have
been on.
That way we will know whose gears are not that reliable.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:01:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: gearing list
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Paul Madden wrote:
> I to have found the talk on gearing very interesting ,now I
> don't do much serious rock crawling(yet) but do enjoy a muddy trail now
> and again and I'm running stock gears and am pretty sure I will upgrade
> my gearing and tire size. I have '85 22re 4-Runner and would be
> interested if fellow Toy freaks would post gearing mods,brands, tire
> size and lockers (type?) and results good or bad. Just a simply short
> post per truck modification.
> PGM
Sure I've got a few data points
1987 Toyota x-cab 22R with Rancho dual exhaust stock geraing (4.10's)
Ran 31x10.50 Radial RTV all terrains on stock 15x6" rims. Works, great,
but looked funny with my 2" body lift, and didn't do too well in deep mud
or snow. Next I moved up to 32x11.50 Laredo MT's on (correct offset)
15x8's. Stock gearing, and I can still run 5th just fine. Works great,
and after almost 2 years of jumping and mudding and 4xing I never did
need an alignment.
I had a 2" body lift and a Rancho add-a-leaf to combat butt-sag.
1990 Standard cab 22-RE w/ Rancho daul exhaust, stock gearing (4.10's)
Ran p225/75 r15's on 15x8 (not correct offset--stuck out 1.5" or so).
Worked fine, but lousy offroad. Then he moved up to 31x10.50 Cooper AT's.
Worked better offroad, and was still fine on the highway. Currently he's
running my old 32x11.50 Laredo MT's (I sold my truck). Works fine, runs
fifth fine, He's needed a few alignments for some reason, though.
He has a 3" body lift (Downey) and Downey's longest Shackles. They gave
roughly 1" of lift, and it sits level now. He also has RS9000's that are
a few years old. They are absolutely my favorite shock for our uses.
Only complaint, is that if you don't adjust them very often, they get
kinda hard to adjust after a year or two. I've heard stories of them
failing when used really, really hard (like baja, type pre-running), but
for us, they have worked fine.
1986 Standard cab 22R w/ Downey header, no cat, Rancho Exhaust, Weber
38/38 carb, stock gearing (4.10's)
Stage 1: 31x11.50 bald at's on correct offset 15x8's. Fine, sucked
offroad (bald tires). also had RS5000's. Very stiff.
Stage 2: 31x10.50 Laredo MT's on non-correct offset 15x8's (stuck out
1-2"). Worked very well offroad. Fine on highway, tires were pretty
quiet. With the HD shocks and offset rims, it cornered like it was on
rails.
Stage 3: 3" body lift (Downey), Downey's longest shackles (off my old
truck) 1.5" of t-bar cranking. 33x12.50 Wildcat MT's (almost bald) on
15x10" aluminum rims (I think they were American Racing). Truck worked
great, fifth was fine on highway, looked good (though the rear was more
than an inch lower than the front), tires were badly cupped, and very
noisey (they were used). Later he moved up to 33x12.50 BFG MT's on the
same rims. These were queit, and worked a lot better. Both types
balanced out just fine though. I have heard that BFG mud's can get very
loud if they are driven on a poorly aligned truck. His were always quiet
though. Thanks to stiff suspension and a wide track, it fealt as stable
(or more so) than stock when cornering.
Stage 4: 4" Superlift (standard) suspension lift, and an add-a-leaf. (in
addition to the 3" body, and downey shackles). We cranked up the front end
too, and used 4" blocks in the rear. He has Superlift Superide shocks,
which seem 'fine'. The seem to be very stiff on extension, but not real
stiff on compression. He's running 36x12.50 Super Swamper Radials on the
same 15x10" rims. It is fairley smooth on the highway, and the tires are
pretty quiet (though they do sound like a big tire, but not real loud).
We were disapointed by how skinny these tires were, but we couldn't take
them back, so 'oh well.' They haven't really worn down at all in 3-5000
miles, so at least they seem to do good on road. Since he still has
stock gearing (he needs to move up to 5.29's) it's not real great power
wise. It's not too hard to take off in first, but the gearing is so high
that fifth isn't ever used, and that even fourth isn't used as often as
he'd like. It just doesn't have enough power. Since it's so high, it's
not nearly as stable as it used to be. It is fine, but just not the
'sports car' that it used to be on 33's w/ the body lift. Oh, he has done
some 4xing, and even jumped it a few times w/ the 36's, and it has done
very well. The tires themselves do a really good job of absorbing the
impact, and landings are quiet soft. We've still got some alignment bugs
to work out though (cause Superlift buggered up our drop down brackets).
> Subject: Weaker gears???
>
> Just a suggestion, why don't the guys that have replaced the factory gears
> do a posting on prices, brand, tire size and lenght of time the gears have
> been on.
> That way we will know whose gears are not that reliable.
Yeah I'd love to hear that sort of stuff.
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:38:10 -0800
From: Kevin Watters
Subject: gears
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Jim said
> I just wanted to put my 2 cents in on the higher gears mean weaker
> gears argument...
>
obviously being an engineering student doesn't make you smart. The main
problem with lower gears (numerically higher) is the fact that there are
less teeth engaged between the pinion and the ring gear at any one time,
hence there is more torque applied to each tooth.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:46:50 -0800
From: Kevin Watters
Subject: gears, gears, and more gears
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Just a suggestion, why don't the guys that have replaced the factory gears
> do a posting on prices, brand, tire size and lenght of time the gears have
> been on.
> That way we will know whose gears are not that reliable.
Sounds like a nice idea but how you drive, where you drive, and how good
the mechanic who set up your gears have alot more to do with reliability
than one brand or another.
I know someone who bought a new toyota, installed 5.29's and 36 inch
swampers and went out and snapped both diff's in one hour. He thought
that he was Ivan Stewart and found out otherwise.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 12:11:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Toy4x4s@aol.com
Subject: non-stock diff gears
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-02-15 05:54:57 EST, you write:
<< Just a suggestion, why don't the guys that have replaced the factory gears
do a posting on prices, brand, tire size and lenght of time the gears have
been on.
That way we will know whose gears are not that reliable. >>
Here is what we did... On our 85 pickup we went to 488's and ARB's in both
ends. We have owned the pickup since new, so any damage to the stock gears
was ours... When we pulled the rear 3rd member out and looked around in there
we noticed one of the pinion teeth was totally broken off. It was laying
whole in the bottom of the diff.
So here is what I replaced them with; I called around and decided that any
local places were too expensive. So i went through all my 4WD mags calling
ads... When i called DTS (Drive Train Specialties) in Michigan this is where
I bought my gears, ARB's, compressor, new bearings (an install kit). The
gears are packaged in their own DTS box and i called and asked the guy what
they really were... He told me Richmond Gears. I paid $150 per set of gears.
I paid $540 for each ARB. I paid $170 for the compressor. and paid $105 each
for the install kits (all bearings, gasket, that sticky grease stuff that you
mark the contact points of the ring and pinion). Then my shipping was like
$20 or $40, I really can't remember. It was a definite plus not paying the
7.55% sales tax for anywhere local! So total parts cost was $1760. Since we
did all the work ourselves local support didn't really matter. Although I
really do try to buy all other stuff local... Keeps 'em in business.
We recently did a 3rd member swap from the recently rolled and totalled truck
(HUSBAND rolled it 5 times on ice while exiting the interstate. Pictures are
available to those who would like to see it...) and the newly acquired piece
of sh*t 85 4Runner SR-5. When we removed the 3rd members from it, they were
in perfect condition. The previous and original owner only 4 wheeled on dirt
logging or fire roads... no rough stuff. It is evident that this was really
the case, because the bottom side is rock gash and scrape free...
So why did we go with 488's and not 529's??? Well the lower gear you put in
the less pinion teeth it has. We were told that the less and less teeth on
the pinion would cause breakage. Besides, 488 was low enough for us... it got
us back our peppiness with the big tires We always ran 32x11.5x15's, now we
also have a set of 33x12.50's to run, and the gears are fine with those
too... this is a daily driver. We plan on getting the Marlin gears to go
slower...
And on my 88 V-6 I really really badly want a set of 456's to help turn my 31
inch tires I run... Yes there was a loss of power when i went from the stock
tires to the 31's, and i want that back! Just can't afford the $500 in gears
and bearings...
Hope this helps...
June Bennett
TLCA 2942
Rising Sun 4WD Club of CO - a TLCA Chapter Club
85 4 cyl and 88 V-6 4Runners
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 12:13:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Toy4x4s@aol.com
Subject: non-stock diff gears
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-02-15 05:54:57 EST, you write:
<< and lenght of time the gears have
been on. >>
Forgot to say the original swap was done in 12-94, and we don't know how
long the pinion tooth was broken.
June Bennett
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 22:50:01 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: gear price info
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Hi, I am presently installing 5.29:1 ring and pinion. I called around
to check on pricing and found that
OFF ROAD UNLIMITED had one of the better prices. It cost a total of
$513.00 for two sets of R$P, all bearing and crush sleeves and oil seals
to install both sets. I am intalling them myself, having lots of fun
setting the correct pinion depth. I just about have them complete and
hopefully install them next weekend. I will also have new LOCK-RIGHT
lockers installed. I have LOCK-RIGHT lockers installed at the present
time. My front locker is starting to jump its teeth (my lockers are
when they were LA lockers and they were made with a weaker material than
they are now). The people at Power Trax were amazed that I had so many
miles on the old lockers. I guess they had some problems with the
original design. I will let you know how everything works out. I will
be going down to Moab for the Easter Safari running either 33X12.50
Thornbirds or 33X15.50 Super Swampers, I have not decided yet. My
Thornbirds are old and I would like to get one last run with them so I
will probably take them.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 97 08:49:23 MST
From: chott@aicd.sps.mot.com (Jim Chott)
Subject: gearing list
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I installed used Richmond 4.88's about 50k miles ago along with a rear
Detroit locker and Downey limited slip. All seem to be okay so far.
I still drive mostly highways, but get lots of hard rock crawling in
in between. I try to be easy on the truck, but will get on it as hard
as required to get up an obstacle. I run BFG Mud Terrains, 32x11.50-15's.
I am still running the stock 22RE with the 5 speed.
One of the rear axles snapped out at the big end a while back while on
some easy hills. Everybody that looked at it figured that the axle was
not heat treated correctly by the way it snapped so cleanly. Two used
axles from a boneyard have worked fine since.
These parts were in an 85 XtraCab for 40k miles and in an 85 4Runner for
the last 10k or so.
Jim Chott
1985 4Runner
rzaa80@email.mot.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 17 Feb 1997 09:09:31 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Weaker gears???
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:46 AM
OFFICE MEMO Weaker gears??? Date: 2/17/97
BCSTOY@aol.com wrote:
>Just a suggestion, why don't the guys that have replaced the factory gears
>do a posting on prices, brand, tire size and lenght of time the gears have
>been on.
I installed Richmond 4.88s ($167 per set) in about '88. I've put probably
135k miles on them with tires ranging from 31s to 33s. The last 65k miles
have been behind my Chevy V6 and auto tranny. I also run a Downey LSD in
the rear and ARB up front.
The front set still runs the original bearings. The rear set has had a fresh
set of bearings installed once.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 18:23:06 -0600 (CST)
From: gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg S. Francis)
Subject: Weaker gears???
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>Just a suggestion, why don't the guys that have replaced the factory gears
>do a posting on prices, brand, tire size and lenght of time the gears have
>been on.
>That way we will know whose gears are not that reliable.
Vehicle: '88 4runner, 5sp., 4cyl., 90,000 mi.
Gears: Motive Gear 4.88:1 (Downey $189) in rear w/ Detroit SoftLocker
Installed on Dec. 23 1996 @ 88,000 mi.
Tires: 32x10.5
Greg S. Francis
University of Texas @ Austin
School of Architecture
gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 5 Jun 1997 15:55:33 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: 3.90 Gears are they good?
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:41 PM
OFFICE MEMO 3.90 Gears are they good? Date: 6/5/97
Chris Austin wrote:
>Somebody asked me if a 95 1/2 Tacoma V6 w/ 32x11.5 BFG A/T's, 3" Downey
>lift in front and 3" Downey lift springs in the rear. Since gearing
>isn't available yet for this truck, do you think the stock 3.90 gears
>will handle any trails?
>So the new trucks have 3.90 gears and I guess the older ones have 4.10,
>is that right and which gears are better for off road? And how do ya'll
>feel about a truck like this going on trails, can it handle it?
There's not much difference between the 3.90s and 4.10s, but either
set is geared a bit high for runnning 32s. However, don't let that stop
you from having fun on the trails. You may just have to be a bit more
careful as you may find yourself slipping the clutch a bit and having
to conquer some obstacles with a more speed and momentum.
One thing I found when fourwheeling with a four banger is to learn
to modulate the throttle to get yourself through tough areas. With
a larger engine, you can hold a more constant throttle and allow
the torque of the engine to pull you along. However, with a 22R
or similar, and large tires, you need to slightly pump the throttle.
You want to keep it revving slightly between the point of stalling
the engine and the point of revving it too fast. The average output
you get from this technique will let you move more smoothly and
slowly through tough spots.
Hope this helps.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 10:27:38 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: 1988 Toyota Gears
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Kevin Sr and family had a question on what gears to run with a 22RE and
33" tires.
First, Kevin I know about the lack of 5th gear and unable to pass. I
ran 33's with stock gears (4.10) for 9 years.
I went with 5.29's running worn out 33" Interco Thornbirds. It was real
nice. Going over passes in 5th gear where before I was using 3rd. I
thought it was just a little low in my opinion. Offroad was also good.
Going down the trail I thought the gearing was about the same when I
discovered that I was in 2nd and could still shift to First. Was real
nice (I am spoiled now with a dual t-case).
I then went with Interco Super Swamper SX's (33X15.50). The heavier
tire and larger diameter (remember my Thornbirds were worn) I now
thought that I was not low enough. I have not ran over any passes yet
with the Swampers (I will by Labor day).
If my speedo is correct with the Swampers (have not been able to verify
it yet) my milage was around 19 MPG, mostly around town. I will find
out how far off my speedo is on my next trip.
With the Thornbirds at 60 MPH I would get 22 MPG. At 75 MPH I would get
16 MPG.
Remember most Interco tires are not radial. If you run a BFG or
something like that 5.29's might feel a little low. I am sure there are
people out there with 4.88's that could tell you how they work with a
radial tire.
Oh, one time on a trip to Moab, with 33's and stock gears I made it
there with 10 gallons from Salt Lake City (around 24 MPG). I was going
around 55 MPH following a friend in his Jeep, so that REALLY helped out
with the milage.
Tony.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 13 Aug 1997 11:21:30 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: ring&pinion replacement
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:55 PM
OFFICE MEMO ring&pinion replacement Date: 8/12/97
"Eric Johnson" wrote:
>Can anyone comment on any aftermarket ring&pinions which
>might be available (particularly but not exclusively any which
>are distributed in Canada such that I wouldn't have to futz
>with the border exchange)? How does the quality of the
>OEM toyota part compare with, say, the Richmond Gear
>equivalent?
Richmond gears seem to be well made and strong. I'm pleased
with mine and have not heard anything bad about 'em.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '85 4Runner
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '91 4Runner
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:06:40 -0700
From: Nick Krest
Subject: R&P
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Rob Boyle wrote:
"Does anybody have an opinion on Genuine Gears.(?)"
Yep. They're fine. Had mine in for just about 70,000 now, with no problems
whatsoever. Methinks setup is more important than brand (as long as it's a
reputable one) when it comes to diffs, trannys, etc.
- Nick
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:24:46 -0800
From: "Dan Smith"
Subject: 529 Gears & durability
To:
>Eli Wrote:
>I've heard that 5.29 and lower (numerically higher) gears aren't very
durable because >the pinion only has 7 teeth. Is this a problem? Has anybody
had any experience with >this? Our trails get pretty muddy around here, and
a lot of guys run big trucks with big >tires so the ruts are HUGE. I'm
thinking about running 36 x 12.5 Swampers and it >seems they would need
5.29s. I have an '83 SR5 Shortbed 4x4 with an '87 22R which >will soon be
rebuilt for more power.
>Thanks!
>Eli
Eli,
I have been running 529 gears & a Detroit Locker for almost a year now with
no problems. I am also running 31" tires. If your gears are set up correctly
I see no reason not to go to these gears, I am really happy with them, best
change I ever made! Running large tires will increase wear rates on any
truck no matter what the gear ratio. It also depends on how you drive; if
you beat the heck out of a truck expect to pay for it sooner or later in $$$
( been there done that). Just my experience, others may vary.
Dan Smith
prism@premier1.net
529 gears, Detroit Locker back, Tru-Track front, Warn 9000i, skid plates
almost everywhere, Kaymar back bumper.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:34:16 -0800
From: "Sandy and Terry"
Subject: 529 Gears & durability
To:
You must be running pretty high revs at 60 mph on the highway. I also had
31" tires when I had my 5.29's installed. I quickly switched to 33".
Terry Johnson
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 09:40:50 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Subject: 5.29 Gears and durability
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Well, to add to it - I'm running 5.29's with a Detroit locker in the rear
in my v-8 powered truck. I've got 35x12.50's and run it fairly hard,
and have even 'burned rubber' on dry pavement a couple of times after
getting the new motor in. I guarantee that it's putting out more
HP/TQ than the old built 22R, so it should suffice for your needs.
(BTW I've got 40K on the gears, 7K on the conversion)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:51:48 -0000
From: runars@isbank.is
Subject: 5.29 Gears and durability
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I have never heard of a 5.29 break (at least not on the live axle
models), but 5.71 are getting a bit weak and have snapped, most often
when you are trying to free another stuck truck, or you are yourself
stuck in slush up to your doorhandles.....
Runar.
-------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:06:33 -0600
From: dphills1@mmm.com
Subject: NOTE 12/17/97 15:17:17
To: "Toy4x4(a)tlca.org"
Subject: 5.29 Gears and durability
There's a guy locally (Austin,TX.) with a 81 short bed, 3" lift, longer
shackles stock motor, 35" Yokahama's, Detroit locker in rear and Detroit
tru-trac in front that has broken a set of 5.29's in his rear axle. He
said that when they broke his truck was bouncing a lot trying too get
traction climbing a hill. I think the key to longevity is to have some
common sense and use some good traction controlling device like an
articulated traction bar. I can't help but think that if the truck
is bouncing the tires under a load the drive train will ultimately
suffer, possibly even with numerically lower gears.
Doug
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:48:26 -0500
From: Darren Floen
Subject: NOTE 12/17/97 15:17:17
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I work as a mechanic in the logging industry on logging trucks.From my
personel experience fixing broken differentials in the field,the ONLY
time these trucks will actually break a gearset,is when they are going
uphill in low traction conditions.What happens(i have wittnessed it)is
the truck doesn't have enough momentum the glide over a hill,it starts
slowing down,the driver downshifts a couple of gears,starts to spin the
drives,they start hopping,he doesn't know enough to get off the fuel,and
the diff blows itself up!It is very common.The moral of the story is
that when the tires start to hop some thing will break if you are on the
fuel.I blew up a set of 4.37's in my 81 toy by hopping the tires under
full throttle!Even with my 85 toy,i have noticed a signifigant increase
in wheelhop since adding the rear Detroit.I have designed a new type of
traction bar that has no drawbacks as far as articulation or binding.I
will let everyone in on it when its done(i hope to have a web page by
then).
Just rambling on and on........
Darren Floen
85 xtra cab
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:08:00 -0600 (CST)
From: gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg S. Francis)
Subject: NOTE 12/17/97 15:17:17
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I actually saw this happen. Although I can't remember his name, we talked
about it after he did it. He told me that he has broken SEVERAL ring gears
on that truck, but that he's a pro at replacing them now. Anyway, you are
exactly right about what happened. He was attempting a hill climb and got
the truck bouncing under a heavy dose of throttle. One of the tires caught
and SNAP went the ring gear. He said that he doesn't mind replacing the
ring gears, and that he'd rather go full throttle and break something than
back down. Unfortunately, some of us don't have that luxury...if i spent
half my time replacing ring gears I'd be F.A.B. (Flat A** Broke)
Greg S. Francis
University of Texas @ Austin
School of Architecture
gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
TLCA Member #5558
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:55:03 -0600
From: John Schultz
Subject: 4.56's with 31's
To: "Toy4x4@tlca.org"
I've got an 89 22re Extra Cab with 31 BFG's. I have been running 4.10's
with my 31 BFG's for about 6 months. My rear diff decided to go so I
decided to go ahead and install 4.56's (yes, in both ends thank you) and
I love it. I commute about 1000 miles a week in my Toy and I never
realized what a DOG it was before. Now I can pull the big hills on the
highway without downshifting and losing speed. My gas mileage has
improved slightly as well ,which defies traditional logic. The mileage
is still poor but, that is probably a separate issue. Check engine
light, code 25 (lean) and code 26 (rich). O2 sensor??
I have officially joined the side of "you do not NEED to regear with
31's but, you will be very happy if you do".
John Schultz
31's, 4.56's, Rear True-Trac, more radios than you can shake a "ham
stick" at.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:32:23 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: gearing question
To: Toy4x4
Jimmy wrote asking information about 5.29 gears.
Jimmy, since it sounds like you do not do much daily driving I would
recommend the 5.29 gears. When I installed mine I had my worn out 33"
Thornbirds (probably measuring 32" at the time). My truck ran great,
had power etc. I then installed my 33X15.50 Swampers and it seemed
that all the power was gone again. I know the size and weight of the
tires is a lot. If you have radials then the 5.29's should turn them
easier. I forget my RMP at 65 I will keep track of it next time out
and post it.
If you drive around 55-60 you should get 20+ miles a gallon. Over 70
and it drops below 18 MPG. I do not think the 5.29 are that much higher
in RPM than stock. Remember with stock gears you need to drive 75-80
to be going 65 so your RPM's are up there. I was able to go up passes
in 5th that I normally needed to use 3rd. Also, you will have 5th gear
again. I drove for about 9 years hardly ever using 5th. Also with the
new speed limits you probably can't even get that fast with stock gears
(remember I run heavy, bais ply tires). I think you would enjoy the
gearing. Oh, also off road. It will be like having an underdrive.
2nd low will act like 1st low now so 1st low with 5.29's feels a lot
lower.
Tony
http://www.digitalpla.net/~offroader
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:08:02 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Re: used gears-new gear prices
Jason Matthews wrote:
>I was just quoted [5/6/98] $459.80 at my door for a set of 4.88's with
>install kits, front and rear, from National Tire [gears by Motive].
Just check around. I have heard that Motive gears are crudely cut and
tend to be noisy.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:45:25 EDT
From: DRM033
Subject: Re: used gears-new gear prices
In a message dated 98-05-11 11:05:25 EDT, you write:
>
> Just check around. I have heard that Motive gears are crudely cut and
> tend to be noisy.
I have had a set in the rear for over a year (15,000+ miles) With no problems
or noise.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Moore DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:35:33 -0400
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Motive Gears
As I had posted before.
I had a Motive Gear 4.56 set and the shop went through 3 sets and two
tru-tracs. The gears were at the low end of the spec an the diffs were at the
high end os the spec so the "stack" was not aceptable. Then gave up and got
a set of Richmonds for the rear. The front set was OK.
EWong
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:45:55 -0700
From: "Brandon Miller"
Subject: Re: Motive Gears
I have been running motives and lock rights for many years with no probs...
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/\/\
Brandon Miller ICQ# 8392888
Sacramento CA
email - miller@csus.edu
home page - http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/\/\
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:50:28 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Quality questions
Jeff Tamulis wrote:
>WHO makes the best quality gears and where should I buy them (I'm
>getting 4.88s)?
I would rank 'em in this order of quality which also happens to be about
the same cost order. Best on top.
Richmond
Precision
Genuine
Motive
I just pulled a set of 4.88 Richmonds outta the rear of my truck. With
130k miles on them, they still look great. I'm installing a set of Genuine
ones in their place. I good a great deal on them. As I understand, the
Genuine are not cut as cleanly and run-in like the Richmond or Precision
gears. They may make a little noise the first hundred miles but then
settle in well....so I've been told. I'll know in a few weeks.
Anyone out there have a LSD your extremely happy with?
I can vouch for the Downey (Toshiki-Fuji) unit. Mine served me well
in the rear for many years. Trying out an ARB now.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:36:40 -0500
From: "David Ohendalski"
Subject: Re: Quality questions & Gear Install
>They may make a little noise the first hundred miles but then >
>settle in well....so I've been told.
This seems to be true for me, I just got my Runner back yesterday (w/
Genuine front & back ) and they sounded a bit strange at first. But, I'm at
400+ mi. on them now and I can't hear anything over the other road noise.
Just a little tid bit for those of you who are planning on gear
installation: make sure that your schedule doesn't include towing right
after you get the gears installed. This may sound like common sense, but I
trailered a friend's Heep 2 hours and we both had work done. Now I'm going
to have to go back since they would void my warranty if I towed the trailer
home (no towing for 1st 500 mi.). Plus we had to stop on the trip home to
let it cool down? Not a huge deal, but something I wasn't planning on and it
can throw a tight schedule off. Later ~dso
DAVID SANTINO OHENDALSKI
FIGHTIN TEXAS AGGIE CLASS OF 1998!
Pres. TEXAS A&M OFF-ROAD
"MUD BUG" '92 4Runner
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Dunes/4399/
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 09:11:14 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: 3rd Member - Bearing Numbers
Steven Benson wrote:
>Anyone have bearing numbers for Toyota rearends ('79-'93 4cyl)?
These are Timkens:
Pinion Bearing & Race Head 32307 Tail 30306
(bearing/race sold together)
Carrier Bearing & Race 17887 & 17831
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
-------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 09:16:37 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Re: Regearing for 31's
Steven Benson wrote:
>DTS sells bearing kits complete with bearings, seals & gaskets for about
>$125. Gears will run $170. Most shops will set up gears for somewhere in
>the $300 range.
Shop around. I found setup kits ranging in price from about $80 to $130
and all had Timken bearings. The kit I got from DTW had a light-weight
crush sleeve. I used a factory Toyota one instead. They are much beefier.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:14:57 -0700
From: Nick Krest
Subject: Re: Regearing for 31's
Steven Benson wrote:
"...If your good with your hands and can watch
a friend set up a rear end it's not much harder
to do one yourself. Getting your first pattern
right IS going to be tough. Just have patience,
some time, a Toyota manual and friend available
if you need him."
I don't want to be that friend!
Steven -
I have to disagree with you conditionally here. It's funny, 'cause Barney
McNamara and I were just talking about this very thing over lunch today.
There are things you do yourself, and things best left to the experts, and
Barney and I both feel that setting up a third member is one of them. It
CAN be done; I just don't want to do it, especially when I can pay a pro
$75 each and get a year's guarantee against premature wear or breakage due
to faulty setup. I guess it comes down to what your time is worth, and how
capable you feel you are with a set of dial calipers and a runout gauge.
Steven also wrote:
"DTS sells bearing kits complete with bearings,
seals & gaskets for about $125. Gears will run
$170. Most shops will set up gears for somewhere
in the $300 range."
I must live in an inflation-free area. I paid $150 per gear set, $100 per
complete rebuild kit, and $75 per pumpkin for setup (loose - out of
vehicle), including installation of a Detroit Locker in one and a TrueTrac
in the other, for a total of $650.
- Nick
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 21:56:11 -0400
From: Agustinus Gunawan
Subject: drive train direct
I got a rear third member from them about 2 weeks ago. They quote me
the lowest price on complete third member, when I got it a know why.
They send me the old model 4 cylinder third member not the V6/Turbo
third member. And the flange is wrong, it's the one with 8 mm bolts
not the post 85 model with 10 mm bolts. The bad things is I found
it out after I install the third member. I called them and they said
the smaller Timken pinion bearing they use will handle the added
torque of the V6 / Turbo engine without problem.
They said they gonna send me another flange overnight but 10 days
later the thing haven't arrive. I called them again and they say they
got to order the flange brand new from Toyota and will send it
overnight last Wednesday.
I am still not confident cause the new crust sleeve has been retorque.
I already run about 200 miles and the gear are starting to get quite.
I spend the extra dollars to get the third member cause I might need
to transfer it to another vehicle if my family grows.
One thing I like from them is the rebuild kit. They are $88.55 for the
rear kit and $90.00 for the front. It comes with a very sturdy crust
sleeve (looks as good as the original Toyota crust sleeve), new pinion
bearing (Timken) , new side carrier bearing (Timken) , pinion seal,
10 new ring bolts, a marking compound with the brush, silicone adhesive
and another compound that I haven't figured out their use. They miss the
pinion nut and the locking tabs for the ring bolts.
Could any body compare the packing list of the rebuild kit they got from
another supplier?
- -----Original Message-----
From: ward [SMTP:ward@lemoorenet.com]
On wednesday I ordered 4.88's and a detroit locker and truetrack and the
install kits from drive train direct. Thursday afternoon they were
delivered to my front porch. UPS left them on my front porch! nobody was
home so UPS left $1328.00 worth of parts on my front porch! Ever been mad
and happy at the same time ? I'm putting in the locker and gears in the
rear end tomarow. I liked dealing with these guys ( drive train direct )
------------------------------
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