Dual Batteries
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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:28:00 -0500
From: John Schultz
Subject: Dual Batteries
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
SThrill@aol.com wrote:
>
> I own a '93 4x4 V6. I want have a dual battery setup for future
> additions such as a winch and/or lighting. Now I know there is no room
> for an additional battery in the engine compartment. So I was going to
> put one in the back( I have a cap).
I am planning to buy two of these and cram them in the stock location
under the hood, they are much smaller than a conventional battery and
excellent for deep discharge applications such as winches etc. They are
expensive though.
http://www.blackpanther.com/
> Will the stock alternator be ok for this type ofuse or will I have to
> install a 110 amp or higher alternator.
Your original alternator would work but it won't be the best. I am also
looking for another alternator for my 89. So far these guys have been
the best I have found. http://www.mousetrap.com/chuys/
They can do import alternators. Give them a call, they are great to
talk to. As far as a dual setup, the best way to do it is to use an
isolator. That way your batteries are not constantly trying to balance
with each other and if one dies it won't discharge the other.
John
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Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:49:47 -0400
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Biggie Alternator
To: " - (052)Toy4x4(a)tlca.org"
> Your original alternator would work but it won't be the best. I am also
> looking for another alternator for my 89. So far these guys have been
> the best I have found. http://www.mousetrap.com/chuys/
wow - certianly those prices seem *low* for what they are advertising...
One thing to keep in mind - just like HP in engines, the total
number does not tell the whole story. If that 200Amps only comes
at a rotor speed that requires an engine speed of 7000 rpm -
well - thats not much use on a street driven 22RE.
For winching and such - the amps at or near idle tend to be
more important than pure high amps.
Just like a high HP race engine isnt the hot ticket for rock crawlin.
Also is the issue of how many ampts it puts out under *heat*.
Most fall off really bad!
In addition - just like HP vs Torque - if you want idle amps
you *usually* cant get much in terms of total high amps.
(with enough $$ many problems can be solved!)
Also - there are two approaches to the dual battery issue (that are
automatic - I'm not discussing the manaul switch issue)
Isolators
Isolator relays
I personally prefer the relay, as the isolators drop the voltage
a small bit
I've used a Wrangler Power Products modified alternator -
Great quality - but it aint cheap.
These guys also do good work
http://www.truckworld.com/premierpowerwelder/
EWong
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Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:52:14 -0500
From: "John Schultz"
Subject: Biggie Alternator
To:
> Also is the issue of how many ampts it puts out under *heat*.
> Most fall off really bad!
I forgot to ask them what the hot rating was and also the idle output. I
just called to get a little basic info. My focus is primarily two-way
radio (as well as a high capacity inverter) not winching so I have
different needs than a rock-crawler. I agree that for the average rock
crawler, a Wrangler is probably better but, Chuy's is an economical (albeit
inferior) alternative to those less financially gifted (which would be all
of us on the list since we probably have already spend every extra cent on
our trucks).
> Also - there are two approaches to the dual battery issue (that are
> automatic - I'm not discussing the manaul switch issue)
> Isolators
> Isolator relays
>
> I personally prefer the relay, as the isolators drop the voltage
> a small bit
The Alternators from Chuys can overcome this with an external, variable
voltage regulator. I like to have both batteries receiving a charge
while still isolated from each other. I don't believe that the Isolator
Relay method allows this. The 145 amp alternator on my Blazer was
adjusted by the builder to compensate for the drop across the diode.
> I've used a Wrangler Power Products modified alternator -
> Great quality - but it aint cheap.
I have spoken with them as well and was also very impressed. I haven't
decided which way I will go yet. Did the Wrangler use a stock case or did
you have to mod the brackets to fit it. Which brings me to a question.
Has anyone on the list installed the Premium Power Welder in a 22RE equiped
Toy? If so, how easily did the alternator go in. I know that the lower
Radiator Hose is a problem for many alternators other than stock, how is
this solved? I need at least 150 to 200 amps and have not decided how to
get it yet.
I have enjoyed your long expositories on the Blower Motor Syndrome (BMS), I
currently share this problem.
John Schultz
KB0ZGS
1989 Toyota Extended Cab 4x4
(it's the odd looking one that's covered with antenna's)
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Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:53:14 -0400
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Alternator Hop-Ups
To: " - (052)Toy4x4(a)tlca.org"
John Schultz sez:
> The Alternators from Chuys can overcome this with an external, variable
> voltage regulator. I like to have both batteries receiving a charge
> while still isolated from each other. I don't believe that the Isolator
> Relay method allows this. The 145 amp alternator on my Blazer was
> adjusted by the builder to compensate for the drop across the diode.
The isolators act as an auto controlled switch. Basically one
uses HD relays that are set up to run as such:
a) Main battery connected, secondary batter isolated (start
truck on main only - and isloate second from vehicle
- no EFI hash from alternator!)
b) Main battery and secondary battery wired in parallel -
alternator charges BOTH batters - its wired so that
mode can not be accesses w/o the alternator charging
the system
c) both batteries disconnected from the system
d) main disconnected, seconday connected
(or soemthing to that effect)
The Wrangler alternator I have has sensor leads for both a main
and a secondary battery (on the HD external voltage regulator).
Therfore, I expect that the Wrangler will auto compenstate
for the isolator.
> I have spoken with them as well and was also very impressed. I haven't
> decided which way I will go yet. Did the Wrangler use a stock case or
> did you have to mod the brackets to fit it. Which brings me to a
> question. Has anyone on the list installed the Premium Power Welder in
> a 22RE equiped Toy? If so, how easily did the alternator go in. I
> know that the lower Radiator Hose is a problem for many alternators
> other than stock, how is this solved? I need at least 150 to 200
> amps and have not decided how to get it yet.
I have an 89 22RE - is more like the 90+up engines than the 88-pre
engines. Wrangler uses what appears to be a HD GM /Delco case with
their own internals. They include some brackets in their kit. You
also have to mod some of the stock brakets (more than they indicate
- I can fax you the additional mods) You also have to file down one
of the cast iron bracket parts. I undertand that the adapter kit has
been changed again since the one I have, so it may be easier.
Its a bear to get in there - I took the radiator out to make things
easier. Ther "third" radiator hose (curved one that no one replaces)
appears to "chafe" on the alternator, but it seems to be OK. Its a
TIGHT fit. I've had it in there for oh about a year or so - no problems
yet. Its nice not having all the lights dim when idling!
EWong
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Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:04:56 -7 GMT
From: "Leo G. Divinagracia III"
Subject: Dual Batteries
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
you may want to check out the 6 volt version of the optimas, the ones with
the red top. i haven't seen the yellow top ones in a 6 volt size.
essentially, the 6 volt guys are the 12 volt cut in half so they can fit
in various places where the normal ones can't. and all you have to do
is wire them in series to get the neccessary 12 volts. one pix i saw
using the two of these guys are under the frame on either side of the
spare tire...
- -----------------------
Leo G. Divinagracia III
ldivinag@csuhayward.edu
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:02:24 -0800
From: Scott Muir
Subject: dual batteries?
To: "Toy4x4@tlca.org"
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:43:04 -1000 (HST)
Eric Johnson wondered:
>Ok, what kind of success have you all had with squeezing dual batteries in
>the toy engine bay with a 22RE?
Saw one recently with a custom battery mount that made use of the space
where the AC compressor would be if you had one. I didn't notice
if it was attached to the frame or the wheel well but it wasn't attached
to the engine. Personally I would contemplate running battery #2 in a
'delta box' type deal in the bed... And then I'd ask on the list if I
should do it, and then someone would call me an idiot and tell me a better
way of doing it...
Scott.
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:30:07 -8 GMT
From: "Leo G. Divinagracia III"
Subject: dual batteries?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
From: Eric Johnson
Ok, what kind of success have you all had with squeezing dual
batteries in the toy engine bay with a 22RE? I'd love to go duals
since I hope to get a winch soon, but I'm having trouble figuring
out how/where to mount a second battery. The best I can figure with
my '87 is to relocate the washer reservoir and squeeze two
batteries in that area...
funny you should mention this... just came back winter CES in vegas. and
like when this topic came up for stereos in the first gen 4runners, i told
you about a winning system in one. and the car was there and i took tons of
digital pixs. so as soon as i develop the pictures, i'll post or send them
and this guy has a great setup for dual yellow top optimas. one on the OEM
spot and the other is right next to it. he has a 22r so there were tons of
rooms to stuff these gigantic guys into it. also, he custom made the second
platform for the other batt with a cool holder for the fuse. each terminal
on the battery housed dual terminal that had 2/0 gauge power cable on it.
really cool. too bad i couldn't listen to it...
other option that you may not know about is that the red top optimas
WERE sold as a 6v version. how does this look like? take the regular 12v
sucker, slice it in half so each half has 3 'cells' in it. then you can
wired them in series so you get 12 volts. the cool part is that you can
mount these where normal size one wouldn't go and still have that optima
batt.
- -----------------------
Leo G. Divinagracia III
ldivinag@csuhayward.edu
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:01:46 -0800
From: "Nate & Nicole Mutch"
Subject: Dual Batteries
To: "Toyota mailing list"
If you're thinking of hooking up a dual battery set-up ,two things you
want to consider. first everyone so far has talked about using an
isolator.while an isolator will do the job, it is inefficient as it
incorporates diodes, leading to two problems, voltage drop and heat, as
evidenced by their finned design. having done some tests with these devices,
the maximum amperage draw our team could acheive was around 20 amps. the
better way to set up is with a solenoid switch,using an ignition hot lead
(in other words it switches on when you start your engine). our results with
this showed that we could draw 50-60 amps thru the solenoid, limited only by
variables such as alternator output and wire gauge. this is deffinitely the
better way to go if you want a battery designated for accessories. the other
method to wire dual batteries is in parralell (12v.). this will give you
twice as much reserve capacity!
but the batteries will drain together, so no back-up.Lastly if you are
looking for the ultimate deep-cycle set-up, you would want to use two 6 v.
batteries in series(to make 12v).a secondary set-up like this would allow
you to power your stereo all day long without missing a beat, leave high
powered lights on while you set up camp, without the engine running.
with whatever system you choose to use never under gauge your wiring and
never over look your ground circuit and connections
2 more amps worth, Nate
'87 4-runner
5.29 gears,detroit rear,tru-trac front
33" BFG's
R.V.Technician
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:59:17 -0800
From: Barney McNamara
Subject: Dual Batteries
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Nate wrote:
>the better way to set up is with a solenoid switch,using an ignition
>hot lead (in other words it switches on when you start your engine).
With this approach, when does the battery used when the engine is off
get charged? If it is switched out of the circuit while the engine is
running, the alternator cannot charge it.
______________________________________________________________
Barney McNamara JENNY - 83 Toyota Short Bed
( barney@flowpoint.com ) stock 22R motor ; 3" body lift
Santa Cruz, Ca. 8" alloy rims; 31" BFG A/Ts
homepage: http://www.scruz.net/~barneym/barnhome.htm
______________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:56:45 -0800
From: "Nate & Nicole Mutch"
Subject: solenoid
To: "Toyota mailing list"
Barney McNamara wrote,
With this approach, when does the battery used when the engine is off
get charged? If it is switched out of the circuit while the engine is
running, the alternator cannot charge it.
In this set-up we are using a deep cycle battery as our secondary battery
running accessories whether our engine is on or off.the solenoid switch is
connected between your primary(start) battery and secondary(accessory)
battery in the positive line, batteries connected in parallel. when the
engine is started, the solenoid engages, allowing the alternator to charge
the secondary battery.when the engine is off the solenoid opens, seperating
the circuit between the batteries, so your accessories can drain your deep
cycle, without draining your start battery.
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:04:59 -0800
From: Greg Sue
Subject: Optima, dual batts; isolator question
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I run a red-top, dual-post Optima... I love it. I've drained it to
near-death twice, and no problems. Held up pretty good when my
alternator stopped working (packed with mud). It's a bit shorter than
the Diehard I used to have, and required Optima's red clip-on spacer for
the hold-down assembly to fit properly (a piece of wood would have also
worked). I am using side-post connectors, and the only extra precaution
I took was to cover the vertical hold-down rod with rubber heat-shrink
tubing to prevent accidental shorts should the connectors loosen and
move. I got a screaming deal on the battery; the previous owner had it
replaced under warranty, and it turned out to be his charging system...
it load-tested fine and I got it for Cdn $30.00! (my navigator works at
the shop)
I have seen a second battery mounted on the passenger side of the frame
just below the stock battery, to the right of the rad ('85 pickup). The
owner had a battery tray with two mounts welded 90M-0 which came down on
both sides of the frame, and the mounts were bolted through the frame to
each other. Plenty of clearance, and shorter cables than a bed-mounted
unit. I plan on doing this as soon as my friend finds me another
Optima... :)
Does anyone have any recommendations on battery isolators? (ie. brands,
ratings, or can I build one myself out of a couple of big diodes and
some aluminum extrusion?) I want to run the starter from one battery,
and everything else from the other battery.
BTW, Optima has a blue-top battery as well; the marine version. Don't
know it's specs, but I believe it's a deep-cycle. And if anyone is
planning on buying a battery, ask the battery store to let you read the
sales manual that Optima sends them, which outlines the features and
benefits of the Optima and provides some good information on the
construction and technology used.
Greg Sue
gregsue@usa.net
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Date: 16 Jan 98 10:44:08 PST
From: Norman.Goetz@directory.reed.edu (Norman Goetz)
Subject: Optima, dual batts; isolator question
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
- --- You wrote:
The blue may have wing nuts since it is Marine
- --- end of quote ---
Yes, that's it. The wing nuts are on the side terminals.
Norman
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:39:04 -8 GMT
From: "Leo G. Divinagracia III"
Subject: Optima, dual batts; isolator question
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> From: Greg Sue
>
[snipped]
> Does anyone have any recommendations on battery isolators? (ie. brands,
> ratings, or can I build one myself out of a couple of big diodes and
> some aluminum extrusion?) I want to run the starter from one battery,
> and everything else from the other battery.
>
get a high amperage solenoid, one with continuous duty/cycle. less heat
build up, loss through diodes and will probably a little smaller in size...
wrangler products in arizona sells them. major car audio manufacturers also
sells 100+ amp isolators also. orion (another car audio maker) sells what i
thought was an active isolator. MBR-1000 i think is it's model #...
- -----------------------
Leo G. Divinagracia III
ldivinag@csuhayward.edu
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:55:17 -8 GMT
From: "Leo G. Divinagracia III"
Subject: pictures of dual batt installes in a 22r 4runner...
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
here are a couple shots of a highly custom optima batt installs in a 88
4runner with a 22r in it. no html file, just to pixs:
http://www.sbeusers.csuhayward.edu/~ldivinag/wces98/4runner
note between the batts is a custom fuse holder.
------------------------
Leo G. Divinagracia III
ldivinag@csuhayward.edu
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Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:50:23 -0600
From: cscotti@econophone.com
Subject: RE: Waterproofing My 4Runner - Battery
Brian Wiencek wrote
> 2. Batteries and exposed wires under hood?
> Get a marine case for the battery and silicone any cables.
I'd skip the marine case - it's usually just a vented plastic box - won't
slow water down much. I would use a sealed battery in order to prevent
the acid from mixing with 'swamp water' when you're underwater. Keep the
connections clean & corrosion free, and put some grease or vaselene on
them to prevent water from corroding them so quickly.
I am setting up a dual optima battery(1 yellow, 1 redtop) setup with an
isolator solenoid that will allow me to isolate it from the cab in winching
operations. It will also be connected to the ignition so that it will
isolate the battery when the vehicle is off as to prevent battery drain from
1 battery trying to charge the other.
I am going to try and seal off all the connections as well as possible and
the batteries are drycells so water cant hurt them but I was worried about
the battery terminals themselves. Couldn't it short it out if the whole
area gets wet enough?
Chris Scotti
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