20R Head on a 22R Block
>Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:50:36 -0700
>From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
>Subject: Where did my 20R come from?
>To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
>Jason Lee Arnold wrote:
>
>>I bought an '82 Toyota pickup truck back in july. I noticed that
>>the stock engine was a 22R, but mine is a 20R. I can't find any trucks
>>with a 20R engine. Does anyone out there know where my engine might have
>>come from? Help!
>
>Jason -
>
>Don't you worry. Ten bucks says that that's a 20R head on a 22R motor,
>which is the hot setup for 4-bangers. The heads are identical, except that
>for '81 Toyota changed the intake port design, and not for the better. The
>20R had a straight shot at the valve from the intake manifold; the 22R's
>air charge has to go around a big 'ol lump to get to the valve. The
>difference can be 1-2 mpg and 5-6 hp. The surest way is to check the serial
>number on the engine. If it's a 22R block, keep your motor like it is. If
>it's not, your engine was sourced from a 1980 or earlier pickup (which was
>originally sourced from a forklift).
>
>If it's smog legality you're worried about, get a "22R" sticker for your
>valve cover from the dealer, or a 22R valve cover from the boneyard for
>$10.
>
>In summary, you don't have a problem.
>
>Good luck,
>
> - Nick
>
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Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 09:31:46 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Subject: Re: 20R Head Swap
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Cc: barney@flowpoint.com
>1. Smog test in California - does this affect the emissions enough to cause
>a problem with smog tests?
Don't know. We had only visuals, and If you keep all the EGR & other stuff
hooked up it shouldn't affect the emmissions negatively.
>2. High Octane gas - does this swap require the use of 89 or 92 octane gas?
>I'm using 87 octane in my stock 22R with no pinging, and wonder about the
I only took .020 off the head when milling and I *HAD* to run 89 oct. all the
time, but if I was towing my 3k lb boat I usually put in 90-92 oct. On the
upside though *IF* I would ever keep my foot out of it I really got fairly good
mileage (around 20mpg - 35" tires, etc...), but I had a tendancy to use all the
power I have - espically running around with a stock 22R for so long.
>3. Cost of the conversion - is it worth putting in oversize valves or other
>upgrades while getting the head setup?
If any of the valve seats look bad - do it... I got my machine shop to cut the
seats for the 22R valves after they discovered a bad seat... They were glad to
do it, and I only paid for a set of valves ($10-11 exh, $7-8 intake each.)
Otherwise I probably wouldn't have gone to the OS valves.
>4. Power - is the whole project going to be worth it when it's over?
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!! I loved it... If you're doing this - swap the cam at a
minimum... It really needs more cam once you have the compression!
- Brian
__________________
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X-Sender: nickkres@mailhost.batnet.com
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 11:46:36 -0700
To: barney@flowpoint.com
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Barney -
>It sounds like a few of you out there have done the 20R head swap onto a
>22R carburated engine. I've been considering this a have a couple questions.
>1. Smog test in California - does this affect the emissions enough to cause
>a problem with smog tests?
>2. High Octane gas - does this swap require the use of 89 or 92 octane gas?
>I'm using 87 octane in my stock 22R with no pinging, and wonder about the
>added $.10-.20 per gallon for the higher compresion.
>3. Cost of the conversion - is it worth putting in oversize valves or other
>upgrades while getting the head setup?
>4. Power - is the whole project going to be worth it when it's over?
I haven't done the swap to my truck, but have done it on a couple others'.
The 20R head is the same as a 22R head with the benefit of:
1) When Toyota designed the 22R, they decided to improve the low-end
throttle response. One way they did this was to put a big elbow in the
intake port of the head. This is good for torque, bad for peak horsepower.
I know you drive your truck from Santa Cruz every day. A 20R head will give
you more peak horsepower (as much as 10-12 hp with a properly flowed head).
I would call L.C. ENGINEERING, 1880-B Commander Drive, Lake Havasu City, AZ
86403
520-505-2501. All they do is Toyota motors. They'll give you the straight
skinny. As for smog legality, I think a 20R head will have better test
results than a 22R, but I wouldn't tell the state I had done the
conversion.
Good luck,
- Nick
____________
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 96 14:15:25 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Subject: Re: 20R Head Swap
To: barney@flowpoint.com (Barney McNamara)
If you go with a mild cam, and a slight cut off the head, it shouldn't need more
than mid-grade. Not too much to pay for a 25+hp improvement...
- what year was your 22R?
- Brian
-----------------------------
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Subject: Re: 20R Head Swap
To: barney@flowpoint.com (Barney McNamara)
Te best year for blocks is post-85, the best year for pistons is PRE-85... Just
wondering.... If you have dome top pistons then you have a pre-85 block...
- Brian
-----------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:40:10 -0500
From: Toy4x4s@aol.com
Subject: Prob w/87 4Runner
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Eric,
One thing I didn't mention... Was you will probably have to have the head
surfaced. This is what I learned from my machine shop guy when I took my
rough surfaced head in... "Your head bolts may have come loose _just a
smidgen_ and it caused a bit of vibration, caused the head gasket to unseat
at the cylinder to water jacket place... Also the slight vibration puts
little pits in the head, and makes for a rough mating surface. " When we
removed the head it was obvious where the breach was, but then you saw all
these pits and stuff in the aluminum on the head. So thats why I took it
in... after it was surfaced it looked beautiful again. Cost is anywhere from
20-30 bucks...
June Bennett
TLCA 2942
Rising Sun 4WD club of Co.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 97 10:01:15 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Subject: 22R Block Assembly
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>Okay, I've just finished assembling the bottom end on my 22R motor, and
>have noticed a definite difference between it and the motor I am
>replacing. Looking at my old motor, at no point in the pistons
>reciprocating cycle does the outer edge of the piston break the plane of
>the block. My new motor has the pistons sticking about a half inch out
>of the bores at TDC. Any idea what's up? My only guess is that the
>machinist got the wrong pistons with a different pin height. It is an 85
>motor, whereas my previous motor was an 84, but that shouldn't be any
>difference, right?
Well , you did know that the blocks in '85 were 2MM shorter didn't you ;-)??
(actually 8/84 changeover) and in '84 they used a domed (donut) top piston
and in '85 the piston was a flat-top? If you use pre-85 pistons (donut
top) on a 85-up block and a 20R head, you will yeild a much higher
compression. somewhere around 11.5:1! The block is the same bore, and the
crank stroke is exactly the same, but the deck heights are 2MM off of the
81-84 deck heights. The domed pistons WILL NOT work on an 85-up head....
If you need more specifics, drop me a note...
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 11:13:14 -0600
From: Steven Benson
Subject: 22R Block Assembly
To: Michael Henry
Your going to get accurate replys from others on the list but here is my
two cents worth.
This same thing happened to my roomate when he took a friends 84 block
for rebuild. His truck was an 85. After the machine work was completed
they found the same problem. It seems as though some 85 motors had an
oddball deck height and internals to go with it. From what I have heard
this was only for the 85 models.
Needless to say I have a newly machined 84 block sitting in the garage.
I would be very interested in trading this block for yours. All the
machine work has been completed by a very reputable shop here in
Minnesota.
Would you or anyone else on the list with an 85 block be interested in
a trade?
Anyone interested in taking it off my hands for the cost of the machine
work?
______________________________________________
Steven Benson
'85 Toy X-Cab | MNTOYX4 | MN4WDA | TLCA #4835
http://www.off-road.com/~MNTOYX4
mailto:toyx4@winternet.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 30 Jan 1997 08:52:29 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Some questions
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:24 AM
OFFICE MEMO Some questions Date: 1/30/97
rorden@jps.net (Sterling Rorden) wrote:
>3) When my 20R engine finally dies (I have been waiting 7 years) how
>much trouble will it be to put a 22R into it? (will the hood close?
etc.)
The block and head sizes are pretty much the same. The22R will fit
just fine.
>Can I put my 20R head on a 22R block?
Yes, but only on certain 22Rs without serious machining......and.......
there are other compression factors involved. I'm sure someone
more familiar with the swap can elaborate.
>Are the 22R carburator, intake and exhaust manifolds larger?
They are different.
>Should I consider fuel injection?
>(I live in California and want to be able to pass smog checks)
Swapping to an EFI engine should be legal in CA if you retain all
the EFI engine smog parts. The swap is a fair amount of work
because you must swap the harness and install the ECM and such.
Best to find someone who has done this swap and get more detail.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:53:06 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Some Questions
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Sterling Rorden wrote:
"3) When my 20R engine finally dies (I have been
waiting 7 years) how much trouble will it be to
put a 22R into it? (will the hood close? etc.)
Can I put my 20R head on a 22R block? Are the
22R carburator, intake and exhaust manifolds larger?
Should I consider fuel injection? (I live in
California and want to be able to pass smog checks)"
A 22R would bolt right in with no modifications. The 20R head is the hot
ticket to free horsepower on a 22R block - use the 20R manifolds. Your best
bet is to call L.C. ENGINEERING 1880-B Commander Drive Lake Havasu City, AZ
86403. 520-505-2501. All they do is hot-rod Toy motors. I wouldn't consider
a fuel injection myself, but maybe somebody else on the list would.
Good luck and have fun in Baja!
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 19:19:00 MST
From: Johnson Alex
Subject: Compression Ratio
To: Toyota Mailing List
John from AOL wrote:
>I was also wondering if shaving the head will lower the compression....
John,
Shaving a cylinder head will increase the compression ratio. This is
because you are making the combustion chamber smaller, and therefore ramming
the air/fuel mixture into a smaller space. Compression ratio = volume
uncompressed over volume compressed.
You can calculate the change in compression ratio, but you need to know the
dimensions of the combustion chamber in your cylinder head (usually measured
in cc's) as well as the bore and stroke of the engine, and what kind of
piston top you are using (such as whether the piston is dome shaped and
intrudes into the combustion chamber). From all of this you should be able
to determine the volume of the uncompressed chamber (at bottom dead center)
vs. the volume of the compressed chamber (top dead center) which is the
compression ratio.
Alternatively you could probably measure the volumes by placing a sheet of
plexiglass over the head or engine block and measuring how much water it
takes to fill the chamber.
Increasing your compression ratio isn't always a good idea, since your
engine is more likely to suffer pinging (premature detonation) and you are
putting more force on the engine components. Perhaps one of the more
experienced people here can share some info about the pros and cons...?
I did this (slightly - 0.010" removed) to a 4 cyl Mazda, without really
noticing a difference (this was a computer controlled fuel injected engine
and I was reluctant to shave off much due to the chance of damage, increased
emmisions, or possibly confusing the computer!). I know someone who rebuilt
an engine and replaced the pistons with a dome headed type from a flat
headed type. He didn't realize the increase in compression would be
significant and he had severe detonation problems leading to a destroyed
valve & valve guide, and lots of work on the head!
BTW - I'm certainly not an expert, so like anything on the 'net - take this
with a grain of salt! Engine books are usually available from the bigger
book sellers, I recommend reading one or two carefully before you start
modifying your engine...
-Alex Johnson
'94 Pickup
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 22:56:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Hooky11111@aol.com
Subject: Head shaving cons
To: p26295@gegpo4.geg.mot.com
hi! my name is mike and i read your question on the mailing
list and had some input you may need before you do any shaving. 22R is a
funny motor to beef up, but i've found a reasonable combo.first,be careful
when doing head mods because of the TIMING.when you shave be sure not to take
to much off because the timing chain has to be a certain length to be true
and correct,if not you create slack in the chain even at full extension of
the tensioner.Experience taught me that bit of info after a night of being
stranded for 7 hrs.talk about frustrated! Consult your local machine shop for
more exact details.Take care and e-mail me (hooky11111@aol.com)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:45:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: 1980 20R head on 1986 California 22R
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On Sun, 11 May 1997, James Brink wrote:
> Johnathan,
>
> You'll need some type of intake mainifold for a 20R cylinder head. The
> ports shaped differently from the 22R. You will also need rocker arms
> and shafts as appears you did not get these items with the head.
Would it be possible to re-use the 22r rockers and stuff? I've also
heard it's a good mod to use the 22r vavles. Is that just one set (like
intake or exhaust) or should we get the head re-ground to use all of his
old valves? Keep in mind, were trying to keep cost as low as possible,
but we are going to get the head rebuilt.
One other question, I noticed that on this head (as in, JUST noticed)
there's a crack between the fuel pump boss and the head itself. In
fact, I can see light through it! It came with a warranty, so I can
take it back, it's just that it is kinda a pain cause the place is 90
miles north of here.
Oh, one other thing. I've heard that the compression will be low if we
use this head on an 1986 22r. Is this right? If so, would it really be
worth it to swap in earlier pistons, or will it be 'good enough' if we
just leave the block alone. FWIW, it currently runs good, but uses oil
and lots of gas..
thank you,
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:18:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: 1980 20R head on 1986 California 22R
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Just got back from another afternoon at the junkyards. Got some more
misc. interior grey parts and pieces, a new instrument panel, and.. a
1980 20R head.
Okay, first off, the instrument panel: This is awesome! Forget what I
said about custom mounting a tachometer to the steering column. For
about the same price you can get a totally stock factory instrument
panel with all the goodies on it, and just about everything works. I
checked, all the lights and everything seems to work. The only thing
that doesn't is the oil pressure gauge. What exactly do I need to get
and where do I need to plug it in?
Thanks a lot, Michael, for telling me about this mod, and the names of
places to get it!
Okay, and the other big item: The 20R head. I went out in their pile
and looked through what they had, and ended up getting pretty much a
totally bare 20r head. It's got the valves/springs (still installed),
and the cam shaft bearing caps--that's about it. But it looks in okay
shape, and it's warrantied to be rebuildable, so I guess it's okay.
The question: Now what? The head is off a 1980 toy p/u (20R), and it's
going on a 1986 Calif. 22R (with a header, a Weber, and no emmisions
stuff left, if it matters..). So what needs to be done to make this head
bolt on? Are there any other parts/pieces I need to get to make this
work?
Also, I've asked before, but I lost the messages, what gaskets do I need
for: The valve cover, head gasket, and intake manifold gasket?
I'm wondering if I didn't go in over my head on this one...
Any (and I mean any) opinions, ideas, suggestions, anything, would be
really appreciated! I've never pulled an engine apart before (but
luckilly I know people who have), so I need all the help I can get!
Thanks,
__
Jonathan Albrecht
--------------------
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:44:28 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: 1980 20R head on 1986 California 22R
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Johnathan,
You'll need some type of intake mainifold for a 20R cylinder head. The
ports shaped differently from the 22R. You will also need rocker arms
and shafts as appears you did not get these items with the head.
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 May 97 07:37:02 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
To: albr9619@uidaho.edu
Subject: RE: 1980 20R head on 1986 California 22R
>>>>YOU WROTE:
The question: Now what? The head is off a 1980 toy p/u (20R), and it's
going on a 1986 Calif. 22R (with a header, a Weber, and no emmisions
stuff left, if it matters..). So what needs to be done to make this head
bolt on? Are there any other parts/pieces I need to get to make this
work?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
OK, BTDT, here's a quickie on how it goes.... get a 22R gasket set called
a 'head set', a 20R intake manifold, a 20R intake manifold gasket, a
timing chain kit (cheap insurance while you're in there).
You can use your valve cover, cam, etc - but NOT the intake without
extensive mods (weld & port re-shape). Get the 20R intake, and while
it's off gasket match the head & intake. If you've got to do a valve
job, then consider having the seats cut for oversize (22R valves) I'd
recommend shaving .030 or .040 off the head. As for cam, I'd look at
a little more agressive grind... I used the TRD cam in mine, and it
was OK, but the engine ran out of steam at 5300... needed a cam good
for about 6500. Oh yeah - valve springs - there is a cheap dual setup
that can be made from like chevy outers, and pontiac?? inners? I'll
get the part numbers if you're interested.
The distributor will hit the accessory bracket, so a little bit of
grinding will be necessary. If the head does NOT have a fuel pump boss
in it you'lll need a small electric pump. The front of the head is
lacking a mounting point for an accessory, but it can be faked with
a bolt & nut - you'll see once you look real close at the front.
The weber bolts right up like the 22R, but I went a step further, and
disabled the carb pre-heat (under the carb - small alum plate), and
opened up the passage to the same size as my Downey carb adapter & blended
the transition from vertical to horizontal - probably 6 hrs on the die
grinder in the intake alone (porting & polishing) - got me one of the
Summit racing kits for porting - like $32 - worked real well once I had
the approximate shape done with a burr.
Un...that's about it, it goes on like a factory head, and OH YEAH!!!
you've got an '86.... check the piston dome volume... might have to
swap to pre-84 pistons... I actually think you don't gain compression
if you don't ... I'll have to look up in my reference stuff.... I'll
get back to you on that.
anyways if you need any more info, let me know... I know this was
un-organized, but I've got to go, and thought I'd at least share some
ideas...
- Brian
--------------------
Date: Mon, 12 May 97 15:38:35 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
To: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: RE: 1980 20R head on 1986 California 22R (long reply!)
>Okay, thanks for all the info.
No Problem...
>About the fuel pump: That mounts on the pass. side, near the very front
>of the head, right?
YEP.....
> I just looked at the 20r head, and it's got the
>place to mount the pump...BUT there's a crack between the fuel pump
>'boss' and the head itself. Is this gonna be a problem?
is the crack on the spacer that goes between the aluminum of the head & the
fuel pump (it's about 1/4" thick? If so it's $3 at an import part shop
(Beck-Arney? brand) or like $5-6 at toyota (or use the old one) IF it's
on the aluminum you can try the following in order of preference:
- Get a new head
- have a welder weld up the crack & send the parts shop the bill ;-)
- Clean the head real well (hot tank) and use that 2-part metal repair from
Loctite
- Use a standard 2-part epoxy (iffy fix)
>What else.. Oh, about all the other stuff you mentioned (cam, intake,
>HD valve springs, ect) is all that really necessary?
Not really, but for the time spent doing this, I'd recommend a cam...it
will make the most of the improvements you're about to make.
>Anyway would it be wise/would it work well just to simply pull everything
>off the 22r head, and drop it on this one (same cam, rockers, ect) and
>call it good?
Yes, the parts from the 22R will work just fine...
>About the valve job: do they need to have the 22r valves on hand to do
>it?
YES ! the valves will need to be ground in and lapped for proper sealing
between them & the head. If you don't want the downtime, then go with
the stock 20R valves, but if you've got a burnt valve or seat, have the
shop order the 22R pieces & install them..that's how I ended up doing mine
- I had 2 slightly burnt/bent valves in the 20R head, so I asked about the
22R stuff, and he was thrilled - he had never tried this, and it worked
excellent - he was able to cut the seat out further, and get a perfect
seal when they were done. The valves ran like $7 each. (one of the
exhaust seats looked questionable, and might have had to be replaced
otherwise)
>I do plan to have the head rebuilt (it's pretty nasty looking as-is) and
>magnifluxed to make sure it's okay. What all should we have done? I'm
>guessing, the valve seats, and getting it shaved down a little.. but
>what else *needs* to be done? How much should we expect to pay?
OK, have the head 'tanked' (cleaned) ~$15. 3-angle valve job ~$50
without extra parts if any are damaged. Milling .030-.060 ~$15-25
>The timing chain was done about 15,000 miles ago (right before he bought
>it) is there a sure way to check if we really need to do it again?
It's probably fine.. check for wear on the right (passenger's side) guide
(Left as looking from the front) if it's got deep grooves, replace it if
not leave it.
>About the intake, would it be a good idea to get an offenhauser, or are
>we better off staying with a stock (20R) intake manifold, and carb
>adapter?
OH BOY... now you're opening up a can of worms... initially I was going
to get the OFFY intake and a Holley 390 4bbl... I had heard all the stories,
and decided that most were hype for the respective companies way to do
things... well long story, but the offy was on backorder from the MFGR for
6 MONTHS!!! (I called offy directly and talked to them about this & they
confirmed they weren't planning another production run until they got
enough orders.) Well, being real bummed out, I decided I'd talk to a
lot of others about the manifold & carbs, and got a hold of a toyota "expert"
who actually raced and used both (all?), and he said a well prepped stock
intake will flow as well as a prepped offy, but for ultimate HP (NOT
TORQUE!) he insisted on side drafts! Well, I ordered a 40MM synchronous
downdraft from 4WPW (Downey kit - cheaper than downey- go figure???) Well,
I got the adapter, and noticed that it was a big open chamber, and the
intake has 2 small ports.. I went to work with the grinder, and took out
the 'bridge' , and made the 20R intake match the adapter exactly, and then
I radiused the transition from vertical to horizontal, and ported & lightly
polished the runners (100-120 grit surface), and finally gasket matched the
intake & head. IF I did it again (which is a real good possibility, since
I'm on the lookout for a 4runner with blown or no motor) I'd do the same
setup.. I think the porting made the most difference in the intake.
>Yeah sure.. what all will this gain us (the dual valve springs)?
Well, it gains you a little bit highter seat pressure, and a bigger resistance
to valve float at higher RPM's... If you're not going for a better than stock
cam it won't gain you a darn thing.
>Is that missing acc. mount for the A/C pump or power steering? We don't
>have A/C.
as I recall it's for the idler pulley on the a/c...so you're probably going
to be OK.
>Oh yeah, how much 'emmisions' type stuff should we hang onto? When we
>did the weber, we just ended up tying off all the old vaccuum hoses. Not
>a very good method, eh? (well, we also plugged them all with bolts
>too). When we do the head, we really want to get rid of all those hoses
>and junk, but what emmissions type things should we keep? Right now the
>only thing we've got is the carb pre-heater. Anything else? What about
>the EGR stuff? Also, there are a few lines running back to the gas
>tank. We just used the one that used to plug into the carb, and tied
>off all the rest. Should we have done something else with them?
Well, I got rid of *all* the vacuum lines underhood on mine (check on my
web page it might have a shot of the right side... www.off-road.com/~toyota
OR www.kcnet.com/~bwiencek/cars.htm - can't remember which) Anyways the
2 other lines from the tank are for the charcoal filter (mine disappeared
during my V-8 swap - wonder how that happened?) you can plug the lines as
long as you expect some vacuum in the tank (run the stock filler cap - it's
got a one-way valve in it. - otherwise leave it - it doesn't hurt anything -
simply keeps fuel vapors from the atmosphere.) The rest of the lines you
won't use, so simply take all the Hoses, VSV's & VSS's out - (bolted to the
fender) The only thing you really need to have hooked up is the vacuum
advance on the distributor & the PCV valve. The EGR won't hurt full throttle,
and a working EGR lowers the engines part-throttle octane requirements. -
leave it connected unless you really have something against it?
>> if you don't ... I'll have to look up in my reference stuff.... I'll
>> get back to you on that.
>
>Please check!
OK, here's what I now know after a little checking... the piston domes are
24.7 cc for the pre-84 engines, and 0 (no dome, no dish - flat top) for
the post 84.8 engines... The 20R head volume is 55cc, the volume they
recommend for the street is 52-53cc, which corresponds to a cut of around
0.80-.1 to maintain the correct cam centerline to crank centerline... I'm
attaching a little spec sheet I dug up... SO what does this mean - deck it
and slap it on. Also check to make sure the oil passage lines up on the 22R
head gasket, I think I remember that they are slightly off... it only means
that you have to elongate the hole on the head to match the gasket
(& block)- not a big deal.
>Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. Sorry about all my
>inexperienced engine questions. Like I said, I don't know much about
>them, but luckilly some people I know do.
No problem.. I too had to learn from the wisdom & mistakes of others... if
it's one thing I know is that if someone has already done it, I really don't
want to re-invent the wheel.
Any more questions? I know you'll be real impressed after you do it, it
really wakes up the 22R - I always felt it could use a little more cam than
I had to reach it's full potental.
- Brian
--------------------
Date: Tue, 13 May 97 09:29:24 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
To: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: RE: 1980 20R head on 1986 California 22R (long reply!)
>Cool. I just took another look. The spacer is beat, but the crack I
>saw was between the spacer and block. Since everything is solid dirt
>color, at first I thought it was all one piece.
Real typical of the spacers to crack....
>Jim Brink also mentioned I should get the "rocker arms and shafts" off a
>20R head. I'm not sure what the 'shafts' are (are they those things
>that the rockers pivot on?) Anyway, do I need to? I leave at the end
>of the week, so I need to get stuff ASAP if I do!
Well, I used the 22R stuff, since they are interchangeable, and my
cam was already broken in with the rockers (yes shafts, followers,
etc - whatever you want to call 'em) that were on the 22R head - I didn't
want to create a wierd wear pattern.... If you really want a set of 20R
stuff, I think I still have a cam, and rocker arm shafts from a 20R
>Okay, I guess we'll do what ever his $$$ allow. That other guy...um,
>what's his name, well he had the NWOR supercharger (for sale). If I can
>get that for a good price, we might just do that instead. Which would
>you do?
Well, that's a tough call... with the little quirks that he had, and not
being able to keep it from pinging, I would probably pass until I could
build a low compression engine...then at that point I'd go for a turbo.
The toyota engines do run fairly good compression stock, and you really
need 8.0:1 or less for a boosted engine.
>So essentially, I need to get the 20 intake, eh? Any good suggestions
>for plugging of the old vaccum bolt holes?
Yep, get the 20R intake - it's a must do, unless you're real good at
aluminum welding, surfacing, tapping for studs, etc... your ports are
square, the 20R is round...and they don't even line up. For plugging
the vacuum holes, I simply went to the local parts store, and got a
couple of vacuum caps, then used 'zip ties' to make sure they didn't
go anywhere. There's not nearly the number of ports on a 20R head to
plug (2?)... and one I used a 1/4" brass plug - the threads are real
close to the metric one, so I just tapped the threads, and stuffed
the plug in.
>How big of a deal was it (really) to grind off that center piece
>(bridge) on the intake, and to port and polish everything? What did you
>use, sand paper? (seriously, I don't know!)
It was no big deal to do. Get yourself a 'burr' for your drill (or dremel
tool, or as I used an air die-grinder) It's a round little metal file
thingy that comes in various shapes, and can be had at the local ACE / true
value hardware store for around $1.49-1.99 I got 2, one pointed, and the
other a cylinder. I also ordered the porting/polishing kit from summit
racing (part # SUM-G1060, $28.99 for electric drills, *OR* SAI-260001,
$33.99 - for high speed grinders) They are really neat little sandpaper
rolls that make short work of doing the porting... and I had enough left
over to probably do another 2 manifolds (4-cyl's at least.) Do the big
rough grinding with the burr, and shape & smooth with the sandpaper
rolls.... oh yeah, to figure out how far you need to go, get some black
spray paint, spray the area to port, let dry 10-15 minutes, and use a nail
or an awl to scratch the outline of the part to be matched. (ie. Carb
adapter, intake gasket, etc.) It's really fairly simple.. all this can
be done prior to pulling any parts off, just go get some gaskets for the
outlines.
>
>Okay, so just get .8-.1 MILLIMETER shaved off the head, and all will be
>cool? Do we need to worry about the timing chain not having enough
>tension? Oh yeah, what kind of compression should he have then? 10:1?
Um.. the shaving of .075 to .100 INCH! should get the crank to cam
centerlines matched up exactly with that of the 22R head. - thus the cam
timing should be spot on... I guess someone could MIC the heads and compare
the 2 measurements, but you can go like .030-.045 lower than the old
centerline and still maintain acceptable cam timing (like .145 TOTAL off
the head) This should give about .65:1 more compression...around 10:1 is
a good guess...
>Which cam did you finally go with?
TRD (Toyota Racing Development - don't make cams anymore) If I did it again
I'd look at the LC engineering cam forst, or the NWOR cam for use with
"higher compression, carb and header" (that's the description in their
catalog.) This assumes the truck is geared properly, since the power will
be coming on around 2200-2500 RPM.
>Oh yeah, and how do you like your 305? Are you glad you went auto vs.
>NV4500?
Well, the NV4500 would have been nice, but I really like the 700R4. it's a
slick installation, and the low 1st, and .70 OD makes it a great match for
the trucks gearing (5.29's and 35's) I 'raced' a bronco last night (he had
what sounded like a 351 with some mods), and took him up to 75 then we backed
off... If my carb linkage was adjusted properly, I think I would have dusted
him completely. - I'm only getting like 60% throttle travel.. need to make
up a better linkage adapter.
- Brian
-------------------
Date: Tue, 13 May 97 16:58:33 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
To: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: RE: 1980 20R head on 1986 California 22R (long reply!)
Well, get the earlier round style for performance reasons... the intake
for mine, I paid $15 - it even had the carb, but it was junk anyways.
The heads externally were real similar with the difference being if it
had an electric or mechanical fuel pump in the car/truck. Either works,
and I found mine without the fuel pump attachment and ran a $35 electric
pump under the truck, so it really doesn't make that big of a
difference.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
- Brian
P.S. when you're done send pics for the reader's truck page - also
include your new ride!
--------------------
On Tue, 13 May 1997, Jonathan Albrecht wrote:
>
>Okay, well thanks for all that info! Sure is a lot! Anyway, I think I
>know what needs to be done, and this friday I'll go get an intake
>manifold. How much should I expect to pay? I paid 65 for the head
>FWIW, I thought it wasn't too bad since I spent 400-450 on the one for
>my last truck (fully remanufactured w/ complete valvetrain).
>
>Oh yeah, I noticed that some of the 20r heads there looked different.
>If you look at the one I got, the 'dish' or whatever you call it (where
>it's got the valves and stuff) is a oval-ish shape, where as some of
>them had a round shape. I noticed in that attachment (I just skimmed
>it) something about the older heads beeing the preferable ones, but no
>mention of whether they had fuel pump or PS brackets..
>
>Anyway, thanks a lot for all the info! Really is great to have a place
>to get unbiased (or at least not biased towards making a sale) info like
>this for FREE.
>
>__
>Jonathan Albrecht
-----------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 08:16:29 -0500
From: "Michael Greenway"
Subject: 20R head swap
To: gerbrandt@sk.sympatico.ca
You Wrote:
I'm new to this group but I was doing some reading on some old digests
about swapping the 20R head onto the 22R block. I'm curious what this
does to the peak torque. I have to change my valve seals and was
thinking of doing this to get cheap power and save time. I also have
another question about carbs. I had my heart set on Mikuni 44 side
drafts, but heard they're only good for hp. What's the best carb setup
for torque?
I have a 81 and have done same thing. The 20R flows some 10% better and
has smaller combustion chamber which raises the compression ratio some.
Use the 22R head gasket, cams are interchangeable, I would use the 22R
rockers. and you will need a 20R intake and gasket. The ports are round
on 20R. You can have the 22R valves put into the 20R head if you want
but I feel is unnecessary unless you want to build a screamer. For low
end torque I would use a 38mm weber, Mid-range cam, header, and a heavy
flywheel.
You should get close to 140 HP. For max HP, notch the pistons, use hi
lift cam, and side drafts (200 HP). LC Engineering can provide all
the parts and help you need to do what you want. I plan on doing the
Stroker crank they offer. With my 1mm over bored block it will displace
2.6 liters (2.5 without). I don't have LC's phone number handy but they
advertise in many off-road mags.
I am not affiliated with LC, Blah, Blah, Blah, they just have neat stuff.
Good luck
Michael Greenway TLCA #3000
76 FJ40, 81 mini, 86 4-Runner
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:38:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: 22r, 20r head and What year is this motor??
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Last week, we finally got around to another project we've been putting
off for the last 8 months or so.. putting a 20r head on a 22r block.
From what I've heard, the 20r head flows better than a 22r head. The
disadvantage being that it has smaller valves, and is an older head
(last made as far as I know, in 1980).
Since he kinda needed a valve job anyway, and definately need a new head
gasket.. we figured this was a great time to do the swap (we had the 22r
valves put on the 20r head while we were at it btw). By the time I'd
gotten back home (for thanksgiving), my friend had already pulled the
old head, and sent it off to the shop, along with the 1980 20r head I
picked up last spring. The first BIG stumbling block: his motor
wasn't what we thought it was. When you do an upgrade like this, you
gotta do tons and tons of research (Brian W. has been a huge help for
us--thanks!), but you also gotta use common sense, not only look at the
textbook specs, but at what you actually have! We had everything
figured out, but had done everything assuming he had the stock 1986 22r.
The 22r engines after '84 btw, had single timing chains, flat top
pistons, smaller head volumes, and lower deck heights among other things
(compared to mid '84 and earlier 22r's). I double checked with my bud
over the phone that he did have the single timing chain and flat top
pistons. And once I was sure of that, I gave him the numbers, and he
took it to the machine shop.
Well, I get home.. and guess what? Domed pistons and a double timing
chain! Uh oh.
Very, very luckilly the shop was about 1 day from doing the actual
milling, so we didn't loose out on this. I did the numbers a few times,
and verified them with what brian did on his '84 motor. Then I talked
with the machine shop guy for a half hour about this (wouldn't you know
it.. he's my sister's boyfriend), and I think we cut off the right
amount. I'll post my numbers and stuff when I'm feeling more awake, in
case anybodies interested. (thanks to the dang airlines I got maybe an
hour of sleep last night),
But for now, here's the big quetion on my mind: what motor does he
have? Okay, here's what I know for absolute certain:
It's in an '86 truck (irrelevant)
It has a dual timing chain
It has domed pistons
It has a 22r head
It's somewhere between a 1970's 20r and a 1984 22r
I measured the bore with a really wasted micrometer deal, and got 92mm
(+- about 3mm), which is right in line with 22r spechs. But, it could
very well have been a 89mm (20r) or over 92mm (overbore piston). That
gauge was trash..
The engine is of an unknown mileage, but appears to have a new timing
chain--at least it looks brand new. It also has an aftermarket oil pan
(8 quart, yipee).. so I figure it's had a little bit of work, but I'm
not sure how much. Since many places sell you the dual timing chain
even if you have a motor after they switched to singles (around '82 I
think), it could very well be a '83 or '84 motor.
The cyinders look okay. There are some light vertical grooves in them,
but nothing massive. There is a spot of rust in one of them though :-O
Otherwise.. well, the pistons are nicely blackened on top, but I don't
think it's anything to worry about.
Anyway, the final thing.. is the serial number. The only one we could
find, was the one located below the exhaust side (of the head), about 4"
up from the oil pan. It reads 11411-350 then in superscripts, next to
the 350, is a 20.
Sorry this was so darn long winded.. but if anyone has even a remote
clue what year this may be, or where to look it up, I'd be greatful.
Thanks!
btw, if we ever get this thing running, I'll let you all know if and how
well it works. Should have a few picts on the web page too. (if he ever
gets the roll developed).
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:44:26 -0700
From: Rob Boyle
Subject: 22r, 20r head and What year is this motor??
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Have you had a look in the engine info for toyotas section on
off-road.com. I think you could tell for sure if you got a better
micrometer. sounds like it will be a nice setup.
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 20:38:39 -0800
From: James Brink
Subject: 22r, 20r head and What year is this motor??
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Jonathan Albrecht wrote:
> But for now, here's the big quetion on my mind: what motor does he
> have? Okay, here's what I know for absolute certain:
>
> It's in an '86 truck (irrelevant)
> It has a dual timing chain
> It has domed pistons
> It has a 22r head
> It's somewhere between a 1970's 20r and a 1984 22r
Sounds to me like an 8/84 and prior manufactured engine...
Does it have square or round exhaust ports?
> Anyway, the final thing.. is the serial number. The only one we could
> find, was the one located below the exhaust side (of the head), about 4"
> up from the oil pan. It reads 11411-350 then in superscripts, next to
> the 350, is a 20.
Looking at these numbers it is definitely from an '84 truck (the block
at least is).
- --
Jim Brink--Toyota/ASE Certified Technician '86 Std. Bed 22R
Manhattan Beach, CA 32x11.50/15 BFG M/Ts
brinkjm@earthlink.net
************************************************************************
TLCA# 6184/ Friends of the Mojave Road (FOMR)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:29:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: new cam, old rockers
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
My friend back home just called me up wanting advice.. and I don't know
what to tell him.
Right now he's in the middle of putting his rebuilt 20r head on his old
'84 22r. The head has been rebuilt (new (22r) valves as it needed, and
that sort of stuff), but he's re-using most of the old 22r valvetrain,
including the rockers.
Anyway he just got his new Downey midrange cam, and he's not sure if he
should re-use the old rockers or not. I told him that I've heard of a
few people doing this.. but.. I don't know. The guy who's helping him
put the truck back together says that you should never, ever re-use old
rockers with a new cam (this guy builds 500-700hp motors in his spare
time. I figure he knows what he's talking about). But then again, new
rockers are around 200 bucks. I guess he *does* have the money.. but..
you know, 200 bucks is 200 bucks.
What do you think, should he re-use them?
Also, does anyone know of cheaper source? (besides downey offroad).
The cam came with a tube of break in lube, should he put this on just
the lobes, or on the bearing surface (or whatever you call it) also?
Oh yeah, one more question. He needs to clean up the top of the block
(get rid of the old gasket material). He's got a wire wheel deal, and
plans to just to use that, but he doesn't know what to put in the holes
to keep all the debris from getting in the oil and coolant passages.
Any ideas?
Thanks a lot! Also, if you can, please respond to albr9619@uidaho.edu
cause I'm in digest mode.
thanks,
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:37:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: REBUILD
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> I've heard that if you have a 22r you can put a 20r head on and use
> the 22r valves but what about the pistons? I am looking for some
> headers and
snip
> My limit is about 1,500 what should I do? What would you do?
Yeah, you can do that with the 20r head (in fact, that's what we're
doing with my friend's '86). Since you have flat top pistons (the 20r's
had dome) you'll need to shave a bunch off the head to get compression
up to stock or better. Doing the 22r valves is a good idea. But
overall, it is kinda a spendy deal. I'd heard of people doing the whole
thing (head and rebuild of the head) for.. I was thinking like 150
dollars or so. But for us it was a bit more. The head was 75, the 20r
intake was 25 (you need both), the gaskets (22r head and exhaust gasket,
20r intake) were around 40 bucks, and the machine work on the head was
close to 275 dollars. If you get a cam too (we ordered a downey mid
range) that's another about 200 after shipping. If you decided to
replace the rocker arms then that's another 200 or so.. Anyway, it
really add's up. I haven't talked to my friend doing the swap for a
week or two, so I don't know how it's going. I'll let you guys know how
this turns out.
_______
Jonathan Albrecht __. /_/__|__\__
albr9619@uidaho.edu __/__|\___ |_.--.__,--;
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619 :--.__|.--.|,---- ~'(__)'`(__)
`'`'`''`'`'`''``'`'`'`'`''`'`'``'`
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:04:12 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: REBUILD
To:
>Yeah, you can do that with the 20r head (in fact, that's what we're
>doing with my friend's '86). Since you have flat top pistons (the 20r's
>had dome) you'll need to shave a bunch off the head to get compression
>up to stock or better. Doing the 22r valves is a good idea. But
Don't go and cut on the head that much, you'll probably never get the timing
to work right, just swap in a set of dome top pistons...
- jack
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:16:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Lot's of stuff over break and the 20R head works!!
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Well schools going again, and I'm back (whoopy do). Over the past
month or so we managed to get a few things done and working and when I
get a chance I'll go into a bit more depth.. but anyway..
And the big mod: 20R head on a 1984 22r block.
I'll definately go into specifics later when I get the chance, but for a
basic run down...
Most any 20r head will fit, ours was a 1980 model, but the older ones (I
think around '75-'77ish) are better flowing
You don't need to do anything to the head, but since we wanted the most
power from this, we had 22r valves fitted, put in a downey cam, and had
the head shaved a bit to give about a 10:1 compression ratio. We also
re-used the 22r aluminum rockers and valve springs.
Otherwise, it turned out to be very straight forward, with no
modifications neccesary, except for using a 20r intake manifold and the
20r intake manifold gasket.
One thing about the 20r manifold (or this particular one anyway), is
that it does have less vaccuum fittings than the 22r one did.. it also
lacks the heater deal that snakes over from the exhaust manifold.
Neither thing was that big a deal for us, since he has a weber.. and
even though the truck does live in alaska, it doesn't get all that cold
where we live.
Here's what we noticed: More power, but not a massive increase. Kinda
similar to bolting on a weber or a good exhaust system. This was a bit
of a disapointment, cause I'd have expected similar results from either
the 10:1 compression ratio or the cam.. but considering that we had all
that, plus a fully rebuilt head--and the better flowing 20r head at
that, plus a new, non-leaking head gasket.. well, I guess I was
expecting more power.
But don't get me wrong, it does well. It goes great right off the line
to 4000rpm no problem. It holds 4th pretty well, and can do 5th if
you're going over 65 on the flat with a mild tail wind. Not bad for 36"
swampers and stock gearing! In comparison, my newer EFI 4runner with
35" bfg's feels like I'm driving in sand when I'm on the highway.
Oh yeah, in addition to the 20r head stuff, he's also running a 38mm
(380cfm, I think.. or maybe it's 390) weber, monster K&N, downey header,
downey 2.5" dynomax exhaust w/out cat, and some nice looking spark plug
wires.
You've really got to try out his motor side-by-side with a stock one to
appreciate what all this has done for it. The most noticeable thing by
far is the throttle response. In short, it's amazing. When idling in
neutral, you can step on the gas, and the tach whips up to 5000rpm just
about as quickly as you push on the gas. It's as though the needle is
hooked directly to the gas pedal. Pretty cool, though it can be a PITA
if you're trying to 'gently' speed up the motor. Kinda like a hair
trigger throttle. Strangly it slows down just as quickly. It can do
800-5000-800 rpm in the same time it takes to push in and let go of the
pedal. I don't know why.. it's done this (the slowing down part) ever
since he bought the truck.
Overall, he's got a good motor, and when/if we ever do the bottom end
with new pistons, it should be quite the little ripper. But it's still
not a v8. It's got good power, it's peppy, and it's well matched to the
drivetrain, but believe me, it's no v8... So far we've got a good $1600
in the motor, and once the gears are in, that'll be another $1000 or so.
Granted $2600 isn't quite enough to swap in a v8, but it's close, and
I'm sure a few have done it for a lot less...
_______
Jonathan Albrecht __. /_/__|__\__
albr9619@uidaho.edu __/__|\___ |_.--.__,--;
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619 :--.__|.--.|,---- ~'(__)'`(__)
`'`'`''`'`'`''``'`'`'`'`''`'`'``'`
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:26:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: which gasket?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> I am taking the head off a 20r motor to put on my 22r, and putting a
> spare 22r head back on the 20r. which headgaskets should i use for
> this ? will the 20r be a "double dog" with the 22r head on it? and
> aproximately how much h.p. will the 22r get from this swap
> w/header/weber? do i use the 20r cam also? Jimmy 82Toy4x4 L.B.
> http://www.geocities.com/baja/6397/
Use the 22r gasket on the 22r block w/ 20r head. Only differece in
gaskets is that you will need to use the 20r gasket between the 20r
intake and 20r head. Otherwise, treat everything as though you were
putting a 22r head on the 22r engine.
On my friend's truck (we just did this swap about 2 months ago) we have
a downey header, 2.5" exhaust, 38/38 weber, downey mid range cam, and
20r head that's been shaved for 10:1 compression, and hogged out to use
the 22r valves (which are larger than the 20r ones) we also re-used
*all* of the 22r valvetrain, and I'd recomend it, as the 22r has the
lighter rocker arms too.
Putting the 22r head on the 20r will give it a slightly bigger set of
valves and slightly less compresion.. so yeah it'll be slower.. I'd
guess it would work okay though ..? This is assuming you have a '84 or
older 22r though. If the head is off a later model, it'll proably hit
the pistons on the 20r.
Anyway, on my friend's, I'd say he has probably 135hp or so from all of
this (just a guestimate, but I think it's reasonable). Overall, he has
good power, and can occaisonally hit 5th gear too. If you drove his
truck, but had never driven a toyota before, you probably wouldn't even
realize that the gear's were still 4.10's (he has 36x12.50" radial
swampers). In other words, yeah it helped, but I'd say that the head
didn't really have any more effect than the header, the exhaust, the
cam, the higher compression, etc. would have on it's own. Each thing
maybe only gives you a real world 2-10hp, but add it all up, and you've
got a pretty decent motor. REALLY revy too, though it falls flat on
it's face at about 4250 or so.. needs more cam (or something..different
cam timing?) if you ask me.. and yeah, he's still got plenty of low end.
No, the power won't pin you in your seat, but it will give you enough
power to keep up with the econo car in the next lane (at least off the
light.. well, I assume that old Tercel was racing us!).
Also, with the 10:1, 89 octane (or whatever the 'middle' stuff is) is
pretty much mandatory.
If you've got any questions about the swap, ask me.. I owe it to Brian
for talking me through the swap!
_______
Jonathan Albrecht __. /_/__|__\__
albr9619@uidaho.edu __/__|\___ |_.--.__,--;
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619 :--.__|.--.|,---- ~'(__)'`(__)
`'`'`''`'`'`''``'`'`'`'`''`'`'``'`
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 11:45:06 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Subject: which gasket?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
For the 20R head on the 22R, use a 22R gasket, use the 20R intake & gasket,
use either one's exhaust gasket (same), use the 22R cam & followers (better).
For the 22R head on the 20R - it's going to lower compression and loose
performance, If you're going to do it, I think you'll need to run the 22r
head gasket (anyone know if there will be 'holes' in the chamber from this
swap? i.e head gasket bigger than bore - creating dead space?) I've only
gone the 20R head on the 22R not backwards.
- - brian
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:29:48 -0800
From: Jim Brink
Subject: 22R Headgasket Replacement
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Eli Madden wrote:
>
> Hi folks, me again.
> I was wondering what people recommend for gasket cement on
> headgasket of a 22R.....and any other tips for installing one.
Use black or grey RTV only on the forward portion of the gasket where it
seals the timing cover.
Removal and installation of the head is much easier with the manifolds
installed as it gives you and an assistant something to hold on to.
Having a third person around helps to wiggle the timing chain up through
the head during installation.
An engine hoist makes it a one-person job.
- --
Jim Brink, Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 1986 Toyota Std. Bed 4WD
Manhattan Beach, CA 32x11.50/15 BFG M/Ts
ToyTech@Off-Road.com
************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:26:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: 20r and weber tweaking
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Okay here's the truck--'84 22r w/ 20r head, 38mm weber, big exhuast,
ect. It runs great when it's warmed up, but lately has been real
temperamental when you first start it up.
I don't know anything about webers (we just bolted it on, and got a shop
teacher to adjust it), but is there a fast idle/cold idle adjustment?
Right now, it only starts when you don't give it gas.. two cranks and it
fires to life (even in 10 degree weather) and holds a perfect
900-1000rpm for about 30 seconds then it get's really cranky. It starts
slowing way down, and idling really lumpy. Then it dies. So you gas it
and hold it. After a few minutes, you can ease off the gas, and
sometimes it'll hold a lumpy idle, other times it'll just die again.
Once the truck is warmed up (without any kind of carb or intake heaters
it does take a good ten minutes or more) it holds a perfect idle. Any
ideas how to get to fast idle when we start it, and hold this fast idle
until the carb is actually warmed up?
Also, once it's actually warmed up, sometimes it's hard to start. More
often then not it starts better without pushing the gas in first, but
sometimes you have to really pump it a lot to get it started. Over all,
it's kinda acting up.. any ideas? I'd assume the carb is still in
decent shape and clean, as it's only about 2years old.. but I dunno.
It's always been a bit temperamental when the weather isn't perfect.
Another thing I was wondering about was valve float. How do you know if
you have it? His truck has an aftermarket cam (downey says it's good
fro 1500-5000 or 5500 or something) and I'd think that between that and
the 20r head it'd actually want to rev up to 5000+.. But when you drive
it, it seams to peak around 3500-4000, and power drops off big time
after 4000. By 4500 the poor motor is screaming bloody murder and
starting to really slow down. That's as high as we've taken it (in
gear). Amazingly, it still has excellent bottom end grunt, and always
has. Any ideas why this is? Any ideas about getting it to rev higher?
_______
Jonathan Albrecht __. /_/__|__\__
albr9619@uidaho.edu __/__|\___ |_.--.__,--;
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619 :--.__|.--.|,---- ~'(__)'`(__)
`'`'`''`'`'`''``'`'`'`'`''`'`'``'`
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:20:34 -0800
From: "Michael Henry"
Subject: 20r and weber tweaking
To:
>Another thing I was wondering about was valve float. How do you know if
>you have it? His truck has an aftermarket cam (downey says it's good
>fro 1500-5000 or 5500 or something) and I'd think that between that and
>the 20r head it'd actually want to rev up to 5000+.. But when you drive
>it, it seams to peak around 3500-4000, and power drops off big time
>after 4000. By 4500 the poor motor is screaming bloody murder and
>starting to really slow down. That's as high as we've taken it (in
>gear). Amazingly, it still has excellent bottom end grunt, and always
>has. Any ideas why this is? Any ideas about getting it to rev higher?
Well, my 22R with the Downey cam does pretty much the same thing. I've
revved it to over 5,000 but it is definitely not happy there. Natural shift
point is somewhere around 3,600. Near as I can tell it boosts the midrange
and retains the low end at the expense of high RPM smoothness and power. I
also have found that the Weber I am running doesn't really want to breathe
well at the high RPMs. It definitely shouldn't be valve float. Depending
on what valve springs he is running, they could be stacking somewhat but I
also really doubt that. Seems to me that it is just the nature of the
Downey cam.
Michael Henry
Forestville, CA
henry@sonic.net
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 16:29:00 -0500
From: Rosenberger Bud
Subject: Cam timing-was: 20r and weber tweaking (
To: "mail@UUCP {Toy4x4@tlca.org}"
I have pasted in 2 former posts about cam timing from this and another
list that may help.
Jonathan Albrecht wrote:
>I don't know anything about webers (we just bolted it on, and got a shop
>teacher to adjust it), but is there a fast idle/cold idle adjustment?
I have a book on Webers at home and I'll look at it and see if I can
help. The exact number would be helpful. I'm assuming it has an
electric choke.
>Another thing I was wondering about was valve float. How do you know if
>you have it?
You'll know! You don't! Basically there you are minding your own
business at between 5-9000 rpm (depending on the engine) and it all goes
mushy. Power loss and it sounds terrible. Especially if you have an
interference engine! Ouch!
His truck has an aftermarket cam (downey says it's good
fro 1500-5000 or 5500 or something) and I'd think that between that and
the 20r head it'd actually want to rev up to 5000+.. But when you drive
it, it seams to peak around 3500-4000, and power drops off big time
after 4000. By 4500 the poor motor is screaming bloody murder and
starting to really slow down. That's as high as we've taken it (in
gear). Amazingly, it still has excellent bottom end grunt, and always
has. Any ideas why this is? Any ideas about getting it to rev higher?
Did you install an adjustable cam sprocket? I think you are retarded (
your timing not you! :))) Actually, it is advanced but that wasn't as
funny!
Hope this helps!
Bud
--------------------------
Jim Brink Wrote:
A little-known secret amongst 22R builers is adjustment of the CAM (not
ignition) timing. For better overall performance, advancing the cam
timing approx. 3 degrees seems to be the magic number. I've found some
22Rs off as much as 3 degrees retarded from the factory--thus explaining
why some run better than others. I understand LC Engineering has a
really nice adjustable cam sprocket with a variable-adjustable keyway.
It costs about $95.00. Supposedly Toysport has them too. Last time I
checked, TRD was out of stock and did not have an ETA on when more would
be in. The others I have played with just have slots for 0 degrees
(stock) or 3 degrees adv. or ret. A friend of mine from Australia who
owns an auto repair and dyno. shop made up mine on a jig he built just
for this purpose. Seems Australians want more power out of the're 22Rs
as well. I do not know the actual horsepower/torque increases but
seat-of-the-pants driveability is noticeably improved. Remember, for
every gain, you loose something else. Advancing the cam will give you
better low-end response, hurting the top-end and vice-versa. I have not
really played with this modification with aftermarket
headers/exhaust/carburation, etc. so I can't really speak for which
combination works best. Thats your job!
-----------------------
Christopher P. Myer wrote:
>Jeff asked about my procedure for degreeing the cam on the 2xR, so I
>figured that this might be useful for others on this list. He wanted
>to know if the wheel could stay mounted on the engine. Unfortunately, it
>doesn't stay mounted, and it is a little bit of a pain in the butt to
>install. It is, however, very important to know when the valves are
>opening and closing, so it's worth the pain.
>
>Based on your exact setup (what accessories you have and whatnot) your
>installation may be a bit different, but here's the basic rundown:
>
>Put the timing mark on TDC (or close to it) and make sure that the dowel
>in the cam timing gear is 12:00. If it's not at 12:00, it will be at
>6:00 and you'll need to turn the crank another full revolution. Always
>keep in mind that the cam turns once for each two turns of the crank.
>
>Remove:
> Fan shroud
> Fan
> Crank Pulley (this may turn the engine off of TDC a bit, but
> that's not a big deal at this point. Just try to get it
> close.)
>
>Install the timing wheel on the end of the crank. Note that these are
>made for wimpy little crank pulley bolts (or for the 3-bolt setup of
>most domestic applications) so you'll usually have to bore out the
>center of the timing wheel the first time you use it. At this point
>you'll have to check clearances. You want to ensure that the timing
>wheel isn't hitting anything. You may have to remove accessories, add
>washers, etc. to ensure that this works. Confession: I didn't want
>to pulley the crank pulley off, so I had to build a big round spacer
>out of 3/4" plywood. This was a lame way to do things, but it worked.
>Go ahead and tighten the degree wheel down well.
>
>Get a piece of really stiff wire (like coat hanger wire) and cut a
>piece off that is about 3" long. Put a loop in one end. You're going
>to find an appropriate bolt (one of the bolts in the water pump is
>usually good) and bolt this wire to the block. Put two 90 degree bends
>in the wire so that the end points at 0 degrees on the timing wheel.
>
>Here is where it gets a bit tricky. The pointer we just made has to
>point EXACTLY at 0 degrees. There are two ways to find that:
>
>1.) Remove the head (yes!) and use the dial indicator. This is more
>labor intensive, but it is actually easier and there is less room for
>error. Don't try to find TDC with the dial indicator. Find a point
>that is before and after TDC and use these to extrapolate TDC. Put the
>piston as close to TDC as you can and zero the dial indicator there.
>Turn the crank one way until the piston is down a set amount, say .400",
>and note the reading on the degree wheel. Now turn it the other way
>until it goes past TDC and drops again to .400". Note this reading.
>Say that you get 44 degrees ATDC for one and 36 degrees BTDC for the
>other. TDC is when the marker is pointing to 4 degrees, ie, the
>pointer is off 4 degrees. Turn the crank until the pointer is at 4
>degrees ATDC and then move the marker until it points to 0 degrees.
>Install the head and you're ready to time the cam!
>
>2.) Use a positive stop to identify TDC. Less labor intensive, but
>since you're working "in the dark", you worry that you're doing it
>right (at least I do.) The trick here is to make a positive stop that
>the piston will hit and stop the movement of the engine. You can buy
>these or, if you're a tightwad like me, you can make your own. Simply
>take an old spark plug, bust the guts out of it (this is a pain!) and
>then tap the body of the plug for a bolt. You then screw this down
>into the #1 spark plug hole. The trick here is to run the bolt in to
>a point that will stop the movement of the engine when you turn it over
>by hand. You note that point and reverse the rotation of the engine
>and turn it until it stops again. Note this reading. Say that you get
>44 degrees ATDC for one and 36 degrees BTDC for the other. (Wow, this
>is sounding familiar! See #1 to figure out what to do from here.) A
>free hint here: Remove the cam gear from the cam so that you don't have
>to turn the cam and valve train while finding TDC.
>
>You can also stick the dial indicator down into a spark plug hole, but
>that makes me very nervous, given the extremely shallow angle that the
>spark plug on the 2xR engine intersects the top of the piston. Probably
>an ideal method for a hemi-head engine like a 4AG or 3T.
>
>Some tips for checking the cam timing:
>
>a.) Check the timing on the valve keeper. Try to put the probe of the
>dial indicator such that it is exactly parallel with the stem of the
>valve. Check to ensure that no part of the valve train comes in contact
>with the dial indicator as the valve opens and closes.
>
>b.) Make sure that all of the other valves are completely loosened.
>This way you won't have to push all of the valves as you turn the engine
>over to check the timing.
>
>c.) Most cam timing cards call for the valve lash to be set to exactly
>0 when checking valve timing. Note that this means that your actual
>lift will be a little less than what you measure.
>
>d.) The only thing that can ruin your whole day is if you accidentally
>bump the wire marker you made and move it. Keep that in mind as you
>make the marker and then again as you're turning the cam through its
>rotations.
>
>e.) When installing and removing the cam gear, make sure that the dowel
>on the piston is exactly at 12:00. Putting this gear back on scares
>even experienced mechanics if they haven't installed one on a 2xR
>before. You have to use leverage to pull up on the gear until the
>chain tensioner collapses, giving you enough slack to slip the gear
>onto the end of the cam. I use a crow bar with one of the teeth on
>the hooked end broken off. It takes a lot of force, and it collapses
>with a sudden "pop". To put the gear on the cam, you have to have
>the two timed PRECISELY! If it doesn't slip right on, you need to
>turn the cam and/or crank until they are lined up correctly. (Ok, so
>that's one hand on the pry bar, one on the gear, one turning the cam,
>one finger checking alignment inside the cam gear. A very understanding
>spouse or significant other is invaluable at this point.)
>
>Dilemma of the procedure: To what do I fasten my nifty magnetic base of
>my dial indicator? Heh, if you find something good, let me know so I
>can use it! Since the head is aluminum, that doesn't work. If you
>have a header, you can usually use the base of the header to check the
>exhaust side. On the intake side, I loosened my intake manifold bolts,
>slipped a big heavy carpenter's square in the opening between the
>manifold and the head, and then tightened the bolts back down well
>enough to hold the square firmly. This was kind of lame but I made it
>work well enough.
>
>I hope this is helpful. I also hope that somebody saves this,
>corrects any oversights, and posts it on a web site somewhere (hint
>hint!)
>
>Christopher P. Myer
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:38:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: 20R Head Swap
> machine shop said there's not enough metal in the valve seats to do
> the swap. He said I'd probably have to change the seats and that
> would be expensive. Is he just yankin my crank or is this for real?
We put '84 22r valves in a '80 20r head. Our machine shop was a bit
worried about hitting cooling or oil passages, but he didn't have any
problems.. In his words, he just 'hogged' the head out until they fit.
> I also checked on oversized valves for the 20R. No parts stores can
> get them and both Downey and NWOR quit carrying them. Something to do
> with needing shims and crappy machining. Can anyone out there help?
Just use the entire 22r valvetrain.. we did and had no problems.. and
I'd say our machinest was if anything, a little on the unexperienced
side. Also see about getting the head shaved down a bit to give ~10:1
compression (stock on the 22r head is about 9:1 I think). Our machine
shop didn't have a displacement measuring setup, so I just used a set of
calipers and little guestimating. Sorry I can't remember how much we
had shaved off, but depending upon wether your heads have been shaved
before, the numbers may be different anyway.
Good luck!
_______
Jonathan Albrecht __. /_/__|__\__
albr9619@uidaho.edu __/__|\___ |_.--.__,--;
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619 :--.__|.--.|,---- ~'(__)'`(__)
`'`'`''`'`'`''``'`'`'`'`''`'`'``'`
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:46:35 -0800
From: "Devin Noel"
Subject: RE: 22R Engines
> > This is my original post
> >
> > Is there any other models that use the 22R
> > I'm having trouble finding parts sometimes.
> >
> > This somehow got changed to the 20R
>
> Well, since the 20R is the predecessor to the 22R a lot of parts
> (accessories) interchange and some can be used to improve performance of
> one another. Note how one person said "R Series" - this is the way Toyota
> designates an engine "family" that all share common design fundamentals.
>
> Now to answer your question -
>
> 22R's were in:
> '81-85 (or was that 84) Celica's
> '81-94 Pickups, 4Runners
>
> This is second hand info... Possibly some
> '78-81 Celica GT's may have had the 22R (although I think it was a 20R)
>
> One question - WHAT specific parts are you having trouble finding? There
> are a LOT of accessories and other parts that are shared between models of
> engines & models of cars...
I am about to complete a 20R head swap on to a 22R engine. Major
differences & similarities I know of:
Intake manifolds are completely different.
Carb's are different, and are ported differently.
Exhaust manifolds are compatible.
Heads are interchangeable except for the intake (they flow differently, but
will bolt up).
20R has a double roller timing chain, most 22R's have single.
Cam's are the same.
Throttle linkages are different (turned out to be a big problem for me, as a
used 20R truck throttle linkage does note exist, and car linkages are
different).
Pistons have a different crown.
Other accessories such as AC, power steering, alternators etc usually are
interchangeable.
Devin Noel
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:55:39 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian Wiencek
Subject: RE: 22R Engines
> I am about to complete a 20R head swap on to a 22R engine. Major
> differences & similarities I know of:
>
> Pistons have a different crown.
OK this is technically right, but the bigger factor is the bore size - a
20R has a bore of 88.5mm and a 22R has a bore of 92mm The 22R is also
offered in a "domed" or "donut" piston and a flat-top piston. For the 20R
head swap you NEED to use the '81-84 22R pistons to achive the higher
compression that you desire, and NOT the flat-top '85-up piston.
- - Brian
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