Coolant Loss
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:14:07 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: New engine ( Matt Silva) overheat problems
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Matt, as far as I know the Toyota thermostats suck. ( I do not know if
you had a stock stat or not at the time). More than likely you warped
you cylinder head(or if you are lucky just blew your head gasket). If
you need a head get one used from junkyard then take to machine shop and
have it checked for cracks, resurface and valve job. I do not think the
price is worth the v-6. Its not just the engine, I have heard that it
would be easier to put in a Chevy 4.3 than it would be to put a Toyota
v-6 into a truck with an original 4 cyl. I have been lucky, I have over
220,000 miles on my truck and I have overheated it a few times without
any problems with the head or gasket. The only thing I can think is I
installed a aftermarket cam and had to retorque the head bolts. That
must have helped a little on not having head problems. Good luck with
whatever you decide.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:27:39 -0500 (EST)
From: BCSTOY@aol.com
Subject: Head gasket
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
If you saw traces of coolant between both cylinders I think is time that
you replace the head gasket. If this is true the temperature gauge may be
running higher and you should experience some coolant loss. The bolts for
pistons 2 and 3 get corroded and lose grip on the head this is what causes
gasket failure in this area.
For the oil leak, next time clean that area of the head gasket that joins
the timing cover and apply grey silicone to it on both sides and set the
12mm bolt under the distributor shaft.
Another area to be concerned with is the area around the tensioner, the
square water passage close to it tends to leak, so is usually a good idea
to empty the water from there by rocking the truck or with paper towels
and when putting the time cover back use silicone on the long 12mm bolt
that's the one that prevents the water passage from dropping water right
into the oil pan.
If you decide to do the gasket make sure you clean the treads for the head
bolt and if head bolts for cylinders 2 and 3 are rusted in the treads
replace them!
Hope these tips help.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:16:49 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: coolant loss question.
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Jonathan Albrecht wrote:
>
> One of my friends from back home asked me a question, and I thought I'd
> pass it on. Oh, this is an '86 22r.
>
> He says that his truck is loosing coolant, and he can see green remains of
> it below his header. He's feeling really bummed about it, and just kinda
> putting off looking into it (he's had a few other prob's lately too).
>
> I asked him if he's noticed any white smoke, and he said no, so I'm not
> really sure if this would be a head gasket or something else entirely,
> like maybe a freeze plug or ??? Anybody have any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> __
> Jonathan Albrecht
> albr9619@uidaho.edu
> http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
Some 22Rs have been prone to corrosion in the cylinder head cooling
passages, usually affecting cylinders 1 or 2 closest to the exhaust
manifold. The easiest way to diagnose this is to pull the exhaust
manifold (or header in Johnanthan's freind's case) and pressurize the
cooling system. If coolant weeps out into or near the exhaust manifold,
that is the problem. Some leaks even occur between the spark plug bosses
and coolant will be present in the small cavaties near the plugs. In
some cases, the leak can be repaired but this requires removal of the
cylinder head. Only a good machine shop familiar with aluminum head
repair should attempt this fix. Cases of this I have seen could have
been prevented with regular coolant flush/fill services--especially
important on aluminum head equipped vehicles.
An external head gasket leak is possible too, but likeley only if the
head was previously removed and not reinstalled properly (proper head
bolt torque sequence, head/block gasket surfaces not prepped, etc.)
Either way, a good place to begin would be the pressure test.
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:11:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: coolant loss question.
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
How do I go about pressurizing the cooling system? Also, do we absolutely
need to remove the header, or is it possible to just remove the lower pipe
(very easy) and watch for coolant dripping out of the bottom of the
header?
> An external head gasket leak is possible too, but likeley only if the
> head was previously removed and not reinstalled properly (proper head
> bolt torque sequence, head/block gasket surfaces not prepped, etc.)
Ok, well here's a bit more history on the motor. When we bought it, it
had been rebuilt. The owner didn't really speak english, so were not
really sure just what all was done to it, but it had some signs of having
something done to it. The hooks for pulling the motor looked used, and
the valves needed an adjustment bad (extremely loose). It was also very
tight (the engine, not the valves)--it doesn't like to rev. My friend
also talked to a previous owner, and he said that it used to burn quarts
per week (which it doesn't do), so I'm pretty sure it's been rebuilt to
some extent. Oh, it had 150,000 on it.
The engine runs very well. Excellent starting/idling/running, no pinging,
no sputtering, and no 'putting' while it idles (very smooth idle). But,
it has lousy power, get's 13mpg (even with 31's), and uses about a quart
of oil per 1000 miles. Also, interestingly, it doesn't ping regardless of
timing position or gas quality. I've cranked the timing all the way both
ways, and no matter what, it always runs the same, get's lousy mileage,
and doesn't ping.
I don't know if this helps any (for diagnosing the coolant loss problem),
anyway, FWIW..
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:00:39 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: coolant loss question.
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
You need a cooling system/radiator cap pressure tester. It is a
pump-type device with an adapter that fits the radiator opening like a
rad. cap. You then apply the desired pressure with the pump and inspect
the suspected areas for leakage.
If the leak is actually in the exhaust port, it would take a long time
to drip out of the collector. Removal is the best way to tell for sure.
> Ok, well here's a bit more history on the motor. When we bought it, it
> had been rebuilt. The owner didn't really speak english, so were not
> really sure just what all was done to it, but it had some signs of having
> something done to it. The hooks for pulling the motor looked used, and
> the valves needed an adjustment bad (extremely loose). It was also very
> tight (the engine, not the valves)--it doesn't like to rev. My friend
> also talked to a previous owner, and he said that it used to burn quarts
> per week (which it doesn't do), so I'm pretty sure it's been rebuilt to
> some extent. Oh, it had 150,000 on it.
>
> The engine runs very well. Excellent starting/idling/running, no pinging,
> no sputtering, and no 'putting' while it idles (very smooth idle). But,
> it has lousy power, get's 13mpg (even with 31's), and uses about a quart
> of oil per 1000 miles. Also, interestingly, it doesn't ping regardless of
> timing position or gas quality. I've cranked the timing all the way both
> ways, and no matter what, it always runs the same, get's lousy mileage,
> and doesn't ping.
>
> I don't know if this helps any (for diagnosing the coolant loss problem),
> anyway, FWIW..
Certianly, if the motor was recently rebuilt, it would not want to (nor
would you want to) rev it too high. Also, fuel economy will be poor
until the motor is completely broken-in. Oil usage will also be high
until the rings seat in their bores.
Depending on who rebuilt the motor, the possibilities could be endless
as to where the coolant leak has originated.
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 08:54:09 -0700
From: "Todd and Terry"
Subject: coolant loss question
To:
I just had the same problem with coolant loss, you could see it on the side
of the block, below the exhaust manifold between 3 and 4 cylinder. It was
my head gasket. Just got it done 2 days ago.
Todd
87 Toyota 4X4, EZ Lockers F/R, 30-11.50-15 TSL SX's, 15X8 AR 26's,
RS 5000's, Ramsey F bumper, Custom Nerfs, Custom rear bumper,
Custom body by Sierra Nevada.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:08:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: BCSTOY@aol.com
Subject: coolant loss question.
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Here I go into this:
First on how to pressurize the system, you may not need the pump if you
use your air compressor set it at about 30-40 psi and pressurize the
system at the neck of the radiator. But of course the pump is more
convenient.
Second, if the engine was rebuilt, sometimes machine shops leave the
head in the hot tank very long and because aluminum is a very soft
material it weakens the water passages around the combustion chamber.
I had to replace a head on an 85 toy because of this. The interesting
thing is that the truck showed no signs of white smoke and it kept
running for a while until the problem became really bad.
You need to do an engine compression test, it should show low readings
for the pistons where water is leaking. And again the signs for head
gasket leak apply, that is check you engine oil for traces of coolant
(chocolate-like). If the engine has this problem, the idle will
eventually deteriorate, and it will refuse to start.
On the other hand, may be we are overblowing it, remember that the heater
hoses and plumbing run around the exhaust and if the people that you
bought the truck neglected the cooling system may be the pipes are
corroded, so whoever is looking at this truck must first check for the
obvious. heater hoses leaks, rusted pipes, leaking coolant plugs, and
after that evaluate if the repair is somewhere in the head.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:28:37 -0700
From: "Todd and Terry"
Subject: coolant loss question
To:
I just had the same problem with coolant loss, you could see it on the
side of the block, below the exhaust manifold between 3 and 4 cylinder.
It was my head gasket. Just got it done 2 days ago.
Jonathon Albrecht
You Wrote
> Did you notice any other problems, like white smoke from the exhaust? or
> was it just leaking?
Nope, it was just leaking. It would only do it when I had driven less than
ten miles and parked. I just didn't want to wait till it got worse and I
was in the middle of no where.
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 07:49:13 -0400
From: Ed Ruf
Subject: 22R Burning Coolant
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On 11:06 AM 6/13/97 -0700, Michael Henry wrote:
>
>Hello all,
>
>I'm hoping somebody can help me find a way out of my own personal hell.
>I have an 84 XtraCab which about 10 months ago, started burning coolant
>at a rapid pace. So, I pulled the head and replaced the head gasket. No
>good. So I pulled the head and had the head pressure checked and the
>gasket surfaces trued. Everything checked out okay. My friend had just
>finished up machine work on a 22R block (magnafluxed, bored, balanced,
>etc.) so I bought his block thinking that maybe mine was cracked. Well,
>I finally got it all together last Friday and started it up and... it is
>still burning coolant. So I figured it must be leaking past the intake
>manifold either internally or at the gasket surface. Got a new intake
>manifold and had the gasket surface trued up. Got it all together this
>morning and... still burning coolant. To the best of my knowledge, I
>have now replaced or inspected just about every component which could be
>related to this problem, even the front cover. Anybody out there ever
>had a problem like this or even heard of one? Even if it was on a
>different kind of motor, I would appreciate hearing about it. At this
>point, the only thing I can think of is to have it towed to a shop and
>let them try to figure it out. Of course, I've already sunk so much
>money into this thing that I would rather not. Any help would be greatly
>appreciated.
I know you've had it apart, but will ask an obvious question. Since the
engine has so many miles on it, the timing chain didn't wear through the
cover into a water passage and you DID use sealant on the through bolts for
the cover?
Ed
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:08:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: CN495@aol.com
Subject: 22R Burning Coolant
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
That wouldnt make it burn antifreeze though it would just get into the oil
unless it is blowing by the rings. Just my opinion. I'm sitting here trying
to think of somewhere that the coolant could come into the cylinder. You
might want to get a coolant pressure tester and see if that helps you
determine where itis coming from.
Chris
CN495@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:19:56 -0400
From: Ed Ruf
Subject: 22R Burning Coolant
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On 11:08 AM 6/14/97 -0400, CN495@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-06-14 07:52:26 EDT, you write:
><<
> I know you've had it apart, but will ask an obvious question. Since the
> engine has so many miles on it, the timing chain didn't wear through the
> cover into a water passage and you DID use sealant on the through bolts for
> the cover?<<
>
>That wouldnt make it burn antifreeze though it would just get into the oil
>unless it is blowing by the rings. Just my opinion.
There is other path. If water is in the oil, under normal operating
conditions the oil temp could get high enough such that the coolant vapor
pressure is such enough gets pulled through the PCV system into the intake
manifold then through the engine. I agree you ought to see coolant in the
oil though.
>I'm sitting here trying
>to think of somewhere that the coolant could come into the cylinder. You
>might want to get a coolant pressure tester and see if that helps you
>determine where itis coming from.
Same here. How about a crack in the head between a coolant passage and the
EGR valve passage?
Ed
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:34:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Henry
Subject: 22R Burning Coolant
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Ed Ruf wrote:
> I know you've had it apart, but will ask an obvious question. Since the
> engine has so many miles on it, the timing chain didn't wear through the
> cover into a water passage and you DID use sealant on the through bolts for
> the cover?
>
> Ed
Well, actually, the motor has no miles on it now, it's essentially a new
motor. I'm sure about the timing chain cover, it was gone over by the
machine shop and fully checked out, but I'm wondering about the through
bolts. As I recall, the Haynes manual only points to one bolt as
requiring sealant on it. Is there more than one? I'm crossing my
fingers and hoping this might be the problem.
Thanks,
Michael Henry
Forestville, CA
henry@sonic.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:37:54 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: 22R Burning Coolant
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I've seen a rash of 22Rs with slight coolant leaks in the cylinder head
between #1 and 2 cylinders near the exhaust manifold. A buddy of mine
who works in a machine shop has also seen this problem quite a bit. In
fact, I was a victim of this with my 2WD truck (201,+ miles). Although
you said the head was pressure tested, was it really??? The best way to
check for this is to pull the exhaust manifold and pressure test the
cooling system through the radiator...with a proper pressure tester, not
the 75psi trick someone suggested earlier. If this is the problem,
coolant will seep into the exhaust passages. The problem usually arises
in one of the coolant passages that surround the combustion chamber in
the cylinder head. If the damage is not too extensive and you have
access to a reputible machine shop, the leak can be repaired. The moral
of the story...Change coolant every two years or 30,000 miles, more
often under severe conditons.
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:44:02 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: 22R Burning Coolant
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Michael,
I just can't, for the life of me, to imagine how coolant from the water
pump/timing cover can find it's way into the combustion chamber. Through
a non-sealed bolt at that. All the sealant does is prevent coolant from
leaking into the chain well/oil pan area.
Did you see my post about checking the coolant vapor with a four-gas
analyzer? With the motor hot, holding the analyzer's tailpipe probe over
the radiator filler neck can detect cobustion gasses in the coolant (HC,
CO, CO2). While it will not pinpoint the leak, it may be able to confirm
coolant is present in the exhaust.
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:32:44 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: Lots of stuff
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Ron,
The coolant loss you describe may be the water pump, pretty common for
your mileage. If the coolant is a dirty as you describe, an inspection,
possibly replacement of the water pump may be a wise idea. A good time
to do this would be during the replacement of the timing belt (60K mile
intervals, BTW). Flush the cooling system, replace the t-stat, check the
fan belts, oil seals, idler and tensioner pulleys and tension spring.
Replace any of these if their condition is in question.
The residue you describe is a characteristic of the red coolant.
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:43:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: BCSTOY@aol.com
Subject: 22R Burning Coolant
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-06-14 12:36:56 EDT, you write:
<< .with a proper pressure tester, not
the 75psi trick someone suggested earlier. >>
just for the record, I recommended a 30-40 psi pressure not 75 psi I would
like to think that this is a typo only. I also replied that the pressure
should not be kept constant and that since is applied only to the neck of
the radiator the pressure actually put in the coolant system is actually
less.
Now, to the real problem:
Burning coolant is usually accompanied by white steem coming out of the tail
pipe. It also results in a chocolate like appearance of the oil. The oil
cap at the valve cover will also show signs of water accumulation.
If the head gasket is letting water in in the combustion chamber that will
show up in a low compression test for the cylinders where the water is
crawling in. This is more common for cylinders (2) and (3). Thus a low
engine compression in adjacent cyl is a good indication of blown head
gasket.
Also when water is leaking it may show at the spark plugs in the morning,
if you pull the plugs you may see traces of water on the tip.
A leaking gasket will also affect the engine performance. The engine may
refuse to idle and may become difficult to start.
A less common source of leak is the chain tensioner area the square water
passage above the tensioner is prone to leak if the long 12mm bolt does
not hold the timing cover very well this water goes unburned right to
the oil pan.
Since the block and the manifold has been replaced I suspect that the
problem may be in assembly. the most likely area for this would where
the manifold joins the head. Or the timing valve cover.
It was never mentioned who did the assembly job and the skill level.
Remember grey rtv will keep water where it belongs and it will look
professional too. Also remember that bolting is usually carried
in a cross pattern.
It was never mentioned what the performance of the engine was after
the job was completed, a description of it may be helpful in order to
isolate the problem.
I assume that you have done some of these "tricks" already.
Good Luck and post the solution of your problem.
F. Ornelas, Ph.D (Texas A&M), Senior Econometrcian American Express
82,83,85,862wd,86, 87 on the works, 854runner
all these trucks have motor swaps 22r stocks.
currently working on a tranny swap on my long bed 834x4.
specialized in japanes swaps (nissan,mazda,toyota,subaru)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:46:39 -0500
From: Steve Capuano
Subject: 22R Burning Coolant
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
At 11:03 AM 6/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-06-14 12:36:56 EDT, you write:
>
><< .with a proper pressure tester, not
> the 75psi trick someone suggested earlier. >>
>
>
I don't quite follow, but I remember this thread and it seems someone
suggested testing your cooling system with compressed air at a pressure
of 75psi. Not a smart thing to do.
Get a proper pressure testing kit from AutoZone. As the statement implies.
Steve Capuano 1996 Tacoma ext cab V6 4X4
capuano@hypercon.com 31x10.50x15 Wrangler RT/S
Rear LockRight K&N filter
NRA lifetime member Dynomax 2.5" cat back Synthetic all around
Downey Headers are next on my list. Oh also a free flow cat!
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