Headers
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:47:24 -0500
From: zontals@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Billy Schweiger)
Subject: running hot?
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
In line with the recent posts on running hot:
I have a 79 fj40 with a weber 32/36, downey headers, and some igition
upgrades, otherwise the engine is stock. I have finally gotten the carb set
up nice (had to modify the air injection rail) and everything is running
great... BUT, am not sure if I am going to have overheating problems. I
just have the stock temperature gauge and it seems to stay in the normal
range, even in stop and go city traffic. However, since I have had the
engine upgrades there seems to be a LOT of heat produced that I did not
notice before. I have not overheated, but my hood gets hot to the touch
and there has been a noticeable increase in heat from the transmission
housing, etc. Do I need to worry about this? Should I install a gauge with
degrees on it? What are the least involved modifications that I can do to
improve cooling? As far as I know, my cooling system is working fine. Do I
need an oil cooler? Or do i just live with it?
Any help would be appreciated!
billy schweiger
zontals@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 14:45:50 -0700
From: Chase Gregory
Subject: running hot?
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
Billy Schweiger wrote:
>
> In line with the recent posts on running hot:
>
> I have a 79 fj40 with a weber 32/36, downey headers,
headers...hmmm...lightweight, thin, surface area a la grande'....
> ...I
> just have the stock temperature gauge and it seems to stay in the normal
> range, even in stop and go city traffic. However, since I have had the
> engine upgrades there seems to be a LOT of heat produced that I did not
> notice before. I have not overheated, but my hood gets hot to the touch
> and there has been a noticeable increase in heat from the transmission
> housing, etc.
Your header throws off much more heat than the stock manifold. Very common
to notice an increase in radiant heat. Even a very significant increase.
Check your temp w/ a candy thermometer if your really doubtful about the
guages accuracy.
If it is in fact running hot then make sure your timing is correct and your
carb float/mixture is correct since they've been changed (or need to be)
with your upgrades.
>
> Do I need to worry about this? Should I install a gauge with
> degrees on it? What are the least involved modifications that I can do to
> improve cooling? As far as I know, my cooling system is working fine. Do I
> need an oil cooler? Or do i just live with it?
>
Would'nt do any of this till I was sure I had a problem...
Again, headers throw off a LOT of heat...
- --
Chase Gregory
Project Architect
TMA Incorporated International
http://www.surfsouth.com/~tma_inc
'83 FJ60, '69 FJ40
TLCA #3071, ORD, TLCAL
____________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:50:23 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tim Jackson (CS)"
Subject: 2" exhaust for 85' 4-runner
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
PGM
You may want to consider 2-1/4" or 2-1/2" exhaust especially if
engine modifications are apart of your future. Toyota 4-cyl's will
develop HP if they are built to FLOW.
As for the Tri-Y......I have owned a N.W.O.R. Tri-Y and a Downey
4-into-1. Personally I would not buy either one. I am currently running
a ceramic coated 4-into-1 type from L.C. Engineering. The performance
benefits were the best of the three. The ceramic coating has its benefits
as well: less heat under the hood(more HP), non-corrosive, and it looks
sharp! In any case, the 4-into-1's that I have owned have ALWAYS
outperformed the Tri-Y's in both low-end torque and high-end HP. Yes I
know that L.C. is a little overpriced, BUT you get what you pay for.
As for the pre-shaped exhaust kits.....
N.W.O.R or Downey has kits. But, if you as picky as me you may want to
have a local shop to do it for you. Going this route will allow you to
have a word in where the pluming goes as well as save a few bucks.
Remember, the least number of severe bends in your pluming means better
flow.
Hope this helps.
AJ
83' 4x4
180-200hp 22R
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:16:22 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: 2" exhaust for 85' 4-runner
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
AJ wrote:
>As for the Tri-Y......I have owned a N.W.O.R. Tri-Y and a Downey
>4-into-1. Personally I would not buy either one. I am currently running
>a ceramic coated 4-into-1 type from L.C. Engineering. The performance
>benefits were the best of the three. The ceramic coating has its benefits
>as well: less heat under the hood(more HP), non-corrosive, and it looks
>sharp! In any case, the 4-into-1's that I have owned have ALWAYS
>outperformed the Tri-Y's in both low-end torque and high-end HP. Yes I
>know that L.C. is a little overpriced, BUT you get what you pay for.
Excellent information.
Did you have all three of these headers on the same engine ? With
the same engine/truck mods ??
I might look into buying a L.C. header if it's that much better
than NWOR's tri-y, I definitely noticed a considerable increase in
power with it, especially in 5th gear. I can pull hills without downshifting
that I never could before. But even with that header, on my
cross country trek to California last summer, I was getting passed by
18-wheelers going uphill in the high elevations, no substitute for
cubes ...
>N.W.O.R or Downey has kits. But, if you as picky as me you may want to
>have a local shop to do it for you. Going this route will allow you to
>have a word in where the pluming goes as well as save a few bucks.
>Remember, the least number of severe bends in your pluming means better
>flow.
I'll agree with this, those kits are way overpriced for what it costs
to drive down to the local muffler shop and have them put a couple of
bends in some pipe for you. Around here a piece of 7' 2.5" aluminized
pipe runs about $15 , a 7' piece of 3" tubing runs about $20 for
comparison with the kits and how much they cost ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 09:23:45 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Performance boost
Rick
You asked how a 22RE engine "sounds" with headers..
I actually ran headers with the stock exhaust at one time. A co worker ran a
Borla first and then headers. I now have a Borla ..
To be honest - it gets a tad loud at 4500 rpm. But there's nothing that
brings a smile as much as jamming down an underpass that has a curve and
holding it in a lower gear - the echo is way cool.
Don't use thermo tec - it works so well that
1 - it melts most headers
2 - it melts most cat converters
3 - it works REAL well in cooling the engine compartment
Personally, I'm considering running a Supertrapp on the "tip" to take the
edge off on long road trips... but I also suffer from tiniutus (hearing
loss) so my ears are sensitive to the extra noise.
At idle - it only offers a hint of extra burble.
At redline the roar will bring a smile to any race fan - even though it does
not have that V8 bellow, it certainly has an even hum.
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:00:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Performance boost
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> > LC Engineering Headers. I've gone through 2 and I'm on my third.
> > I just installed a friends and I would DEFINATELY reccoment them
>
> I've thought about this, but I'm not sure I want to monkey with headers. I
> may give it a go this summer though. What does the four-cyl. sound like
> with the L.C. headers?
I just started this list last night, so I guess I missed what this was
about. I've never heard/seen the L.C. headers, but we've got a set of
Downey headers on a friends p/u. We ran it like this (on an '86 w/ a 22R)
Downey 4-to-1 to a long (2-1/2" or 3" diameter, I forget) pipe, and from
there, bolted on the '1-to-2' adapter into a Rancho dual 'glass-pak' type
exhaust. (no cat).
It sounds...okay. It's very loud, and pretty blatty. I like the sound,
but it doesn't have the same smooth 'Kawasaki on steroids' sound as you
get running stock manifold/cat w/ a Rancho. It's more of a cross between
a Kawasaki and an 'old datsun' type of sound. Not bad, but just not very
mellow either. We're thinking about swapping the glass paks for a set of
'turbo' mufflers of some sort.
I once heard a 20R w/ a header (don't know what type, I think it was a 4:1
though) w/ some kind of Turbo muffler (like Dynomax, for instance). It
sounded really good--pretty much the same as running the manifold/cat w/ a
Rancho.
Performance: I've noticed big gains when we swapped the Rancho dual
exhaust for the stock exhaust (still running manifold and cat). It
seriously changes the attitude of the truck. I'm not certain just how
much more power the truck makes, but it feels a lot faster. Part of that
probably has to do with the sound though.
On the truck that got the header, I'm not really sure how much it helped.
We started w/ a stock truck (with a *very* plugged cat--it sounded almost
stock with *no* muffler on) that had an exhaust (in great shape) off of a
later model truck ('90). Initially, we replaced the manifold/cat w/ the
downey header (but still used the stock muffler). This made a *big*
difference, but as far as I know, it might have had more to do with
removing the (plugged) cat than installing the header. BTW, it sounded
almost same as stock (if you were wondering). Then, later we bolted up
the Rancho exhaust, which made a little bit of difference, but not
anywhere near as much as we had noticed with previous trucks.
> I had a K&N on my road cycle years ago! I should have thought of that.
> Can you tell me more about the difference between the "stock box" and the
> "cone"?
The 'cones' or other kits that let you use K&N's sure are a lot of cash.
Are they really worth it? I didn't notice hardly any difference when I
swapped in a 'drop-in' replacement K&N in my 22R. It did get dirty a lot
faster though, so I guess it worked better.
I just can't see myself spending 200 bucks on an air filter...
> Thanks a lot for taking the time to respond to my post.
sure,
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:40:32 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Headers for 22R-E
I ve used LC headers and find that they are pretty good (certianly they have
improved over the years).
There was a post a few weeks ago that said LC (4 into 1 but w/ LONG primaries)
was better than Downey (and spoke from personal experience).
Also - its not he tri-y vs 4-1 issue - its acually brand x vs brand y. Headers
are a "tuning" device - there is no inherent design advantage if R&D is
invested.
In other words - if you were designing a header, the belief is that a tri-y is
better top and a 4-1 is better low. BUT they can be made to do either.
I have a "connector" pipe coated at Jett Hott (Bridegport PA is just 5 miles
from work) While it looke pretty durn good for an exhaust pipe exposed to
salt - it does now have a tad of red rust on the "flanges". Probably it
was not prepped enough before coating. It also has been a few years - so
dont read that this is a crappy product.
LC coats everything now - so you dont need to deal with any of that stuff -
just bolt on and go.
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:16:08 +0000
From: *************** P A U L N G U Y E N *****
Subject: downey header
To: TOYOTA LIST
thanks for all the info about headers. i think i'm gonna purchase a
downey header for my four cyl. 93 std cab. i noticed all the prices are
around 200 dollars. well, my next question is, will it be easy to
install myself? i took a peek under the hood and it doesn't seem very
involved at all. has anyone else purchased a downey header and installed
it themselves? does it come with all the req'd parts? is it just a
matter of unbolting the stock manifold and fastening the header?
thanks for any info!
-paul
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 23:18:23 +0500
From: Scott Hollister
Subject: downey header
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
At 07:16 PM 3/13/97 +0000, you wrote:
>thanks for all the info about headers. i think i'm gonna purchase a
>downey header for my four cyl. 93 std cab. i noticed all the prices are
>around 200 dollars. well, my next question is, will it be easy to
>install myself? i took a peek under the hood and it doesn't seem very
>involved at all. has anyone else purchased a downey header and installed
>it themselves? does it come with all the req'd parts? is it just a
>matter of unbolting the stock manifold and fastening the header?
>thanks for any info!
>
> -paul
I have installed a Downey header in my 84. I was lucky, and the manifold
bolts came right out. The header is then a simple replacement. The hardest
part was cutting the connector pipe with a hacksaw. Shoudn't give you any
problem.
Good luck->
Scott Hollister
shollist@vt.edu
84 xtracab 33's EZ Locker, Onboard Air,
Dual Batteries, Front Axle Forward 1" 5.29's.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:46:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: downey header (a bit long)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> thanks for all the info about headers. i think i'm gonna purchase a
> downey header for my four cyl. 93 std cab. i noticed all the prices are
> around 200 dollars. well, my next question is, will it be easy to
> install myself? i took a peek under the hood and it doesn't seem very
> involved at all. has anyone else purchased a downey header and installed
> it themselves? does it come with all the req'd parts? is it just a
> matter of unbolting the stock manifold and fastening the header?
> thanks for any info!
First question: why the Downey? That's what we went with (didn't know
about any other brands at the time), and while it seems fine...I'm just
curious why you picked it over the others.
Installation: This was on a 1986 California 22R (IFS) Toyota p/u that had
a 3" body lift, and was otherwise (as far as this is concerned) stock.
This is with the Downey header.
First thing was to unbolt the the air filter assembly, the heat shield,
and unbolt the cat from the exhaust. (We chose to bi-pass the cat) Next,
we needed to un bolt the O2 sensor, and the bolts holding the hot air
return line (to the carb). We chose to keep this on the header.
As a side note, removing the two bolts holding the cat to the exhaust was
really, really hard. It took about 3 hours to do that, becuase we spent
so much time drilling and cutting. It's not very fun. Later we decided
to unbolt the cat from the manifold downpipe, and those two bolts came out
really easy. Strange, but that's how it was.
With all of the stuff out of the way, we unbolted the manifold from the
block. Once that was done, all you have to do is pull the mess
out...easier said than done. Even with the 3" body lift there really
isn't enough room to pull out the header/downpipe/cat all at once. We had
to unbolt a heat shield or two (I think) and just kept wiggling it around
and eventually it did come out. I don't really remember (this was a long
time ago) but the part that made it hard may have been that the cat was
hitting the floor. Even on a stock truck, if you put the truck up on
ramps you may be able to pull out the manifold/cat easier. If you plan to
do this, then get it up on the ramps *before* you pull the manifold. I
don't know if it's hard on anything to run the engine w/out the manifold,
but I can gaurantee that it will be *really* loud. Alternativley you
could probably just jack up the front of the truck with a floor jack.
Also, there was one other problem with the removal. The hot air injector
deal is bolted on in such a way that it's difficult to remove and install.
As I recal, a bit of swearing and some force did the job.
Installation is very similar to the removal. You may want to hit the side
of the head/block with a steel brush to clean it up, and then you just
need to put it together. I don't remember if we put sealant on one or
both sides of the exhaust gasket...I'm thinking both sides, but I'm not
sure. It did say in the instructions, I think. We used some orange
permatex high temp sealant. Then you just need to put it on, and torque
it down--also you need to put on the hot air return lines at this time too
(if you decide to use them, also the EFI's don't have them, I think).
Once it was on, I went home, and we just let it sit (so the high temp
stuff would dry). We did start it up (just header, no down pipe, cat or
anything else) and it is incredibly loud. Imagine a rusty, worn out old
datsun. x 100000. It was one of the louder/crappier things I've heard..
Then we had to put on the rest of the stuff. We decided not to use the
cat, and just had to cut the down-pipe to fit. Pretty easy. Bolt it on
w/ u-bolts, and bolt on the adapter on the other end, and then you're
done. You can put some of the heat shields back on if you want. We
didn't use the O2 sensor, or the heat riser. Also, the stock heat shield
can't be bolted up either.
And that's about all there was to it. After a few days he re-torqed the
header, and did that every month or so for awhile after. He hasn't
touched it for a real long time, and it's not leaking or anything so, I
guess we did a good job. Well, it did develope a leak at the 'slip on'
connector to the down pipe. A new u-bolt (the other one broke when he
re-tightend it...I think) fixed that problem.
With the old (clogged) cat removed, but still using the factory exhaust,
we noticed a fair increase in power. I know a lot of it has to do with
the cat, but I'm not sure just how much. With the stock exhaust on it
didn't seem any louder though there was this little sound, like "b-b's
bouncing around" coming from the header. I'm not sure why. A month or so
later we replaced the factory exhaust with the Rancho, and that solved the
'b-b' noise pretty quick (it's really loud with no cat/header!).
Anyway, hope this helps. Also, you can contact Paul (who owns the truck
with the header) at jspdp@acad1.alaska.edu if you want.
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 23:19:58 -0600
From: Steve Capuano
Subject: downey header (a bit long)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I
>don't know if it's hard on anything to run the engine w/out the manifold,
>but I can gaurantee that it will be *really* loud. Alternativley you
>could probably just jack up the front of the truck with a floor jack.
>
>
>
>Jonathan Albrecht
>albr9619@uidaho.edu
>http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
>
>
Bad Idea!!!!!!1
You want some back pressure....imagine this when, someone drags on a
cigarette the tip glows redder. No back pressure and you will suck air
across your exhaust valves and they will glow. Now you have burnt valves.
Please correct me if my info. is not right. This is what I was told.
Steve C.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:36:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: downey header (a bit long)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> I
> >don't know if it's hard on anything to run the engine w/out the manifold,
> >but I can gaurantee that it will be *really* loud. Alternativley you
> >could probably just jack up the front of the truck with a floor jack.
> >
> Bad Idea!!!!!!1
> You want some back pressure....imagine this when, someone drags on a
> cigarette the tip glows redder. No back pressure and you will suck air
> across your exhaust valves and they will glow. Now you have burnt valves.
> Please correct me if my info. is not right. This is what I was told.
> Steve C.
>
yeah I've heard similar things too. But I remember one guy on another
list mentioned that he had to move his samurai around w/ out the manifold,
his main comment being that it didn't seem to have any bottom end torque,
and was real loud. Another guy around here started up his Corola like
that too...so I just figured that it's a bad idea, but won't neccessarilly
do anything. I dunno, I wouldn't try it!
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:08:43 -0500
From: "R. W. 'Butch' Stiles"
Subject: downey header (a bit long)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Steve Capuano wrote:
>
> I
> >don't know if it's hard on anything to run the engine w/out the manifold,
> >but I can gaurantee that it will be *really* loud. Alternativley you
> >could probably just jack up the front of the truck with a floor jack.
> >
> >
> >
> >Jonathan Albrecht
> >albr9619@uidaho.edu
> >http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
> >
> >
>
> Bad Idea!!!!!!1
> You want some back pressure....imagine this when, someone drags on a
> cigarette the tip glows redder. No back pressure and you will suck air
> across your exhaust valves and they will glow. Now you have burnt valves.
> Please correct me if my info. is not right. This is what I was told.
> Steve C.
Steve,
Back pressure is not the issue, contrary to popular belief back
pressure is NOT required for an engine to run. (Look at dragsters)What
you're dealing with is tuning. The engine is being supplied with the
amount of fuel it needs based on the amount of air it can move in and
out of the cylinders. Running it without the exhaust unbalances the
equation and has the effect of leaning out the mixture which causes the
engine to run VERY hot and can burn right thru pistons if left
unchecked, along with the valves and other sundry items. You are correct
that this is a bad idea but the truck could be run long enough to put it
up on some ramps without hurting anything. Ive seen this done, no
problem !
Butch Stiles
rokitman@erols.com
Just as it says, "Rocket Man"
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:44:09 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Header tips
To: " - (052)albr9619 (a) uidaho.edu" ,
Jonathan Albrecht's tips were VERY finely detailed, but I'd thought I'd add
a few tips (having done 4 of them - all IFS and post 88 EFI on 22REs)
First - there are three studs that hold the "down pipe" to the manifold - it is
FAR easier to take this off from the manifold so that taking the exhaust
manifold off the studs is REAL easy.
Remove the heat shield that protects the IFS A Arm - it gets in the way. On the
LC engineering headers - part of the heat sheild has to be "dimpled" a tad
if you wish to retain it.
Drop the sway bar - take it all the way out. It gets in the way of the creeper.
(if you have a lift in your house - you are WAY ahead of me an probably dont
need
these tips anyway)
With the emissiosn cross over pipe - the problem is that there are "studs" on
the pipe that attaches on TOP of the manifold; so that putting everything back
is a pain.
* bend the pipe running near the firewall so that the studs clear. Be careful!
* cut off the studs
* drill and tap the remainder of the studs with the proper threads for the
bolts
that you are going to install (I used 12mmx1.25 x 45mm)
All of this makes putting it back together MUCH easier.
My prefernce is for hte LC Headers - they're the most $$ (~$280), but
thye come pre coated in ceramic - inludign the connector pipe.
My latest one has lasted 3 years an 80K in the rust belt....
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:13:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Toy4x4s@aol.com
Subject: NWOR header
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Just courious why no one has mentioned the NWOR header... That is the one I
am considering whenever I get some bucks and warm weather. I like the way it
connects to the cat. No slip on joint to loosen up... it bolts up. I've
actually seen it in their showroom. It looks nice. I also like the fact that
they have more than one design for diffferent vehicles... Downey is one size
fits all so to speak.
Comments?
June Bennett
TLCA 2942
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:31:59 -0800
From: Eric Johnson
Subject: NWOR header
To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"
On Thursday, March 13, 1997 11:13 PM, Toy4x4s@aol.com wrote:
> Just courious why no one has mentioned the NWOR header... That is the
> one I am considering whenever I get some bucks and warm weather. I like
> the way it connects to the cat. No slip on joint to loosen up... it bolts
> up. I've actually seen it in their showroom. It looks nice. I also like
> the fact that they have more than one design for diffferent vehicles...
> Downey is one size fits all so to speak.
>
> Comments?
I've got one, and their warrantee (i.e. they have one) vs. downey is
what sold me on it. I've had it for maybe 2 years now. I've gone through
a couple header gaskets with it. I'm using a genuine toyota (metal)
gasket now, but that doesn't work well with the headers, so next time I
call NWOR I'll order another $8 NWOR gasket.
I had broken the old tube from between the stock manifold and the cat,
so that was my excuse to buy one :)
The NWOR DOES have a slip fit, mine came with a piece that bolts to your
head, another to you cat, with a slip join between them. Mine is the old
style before they went to the ball joint setup.
Install was a snap... I don't understand the banana scale (anyone want
to educate me?) but I did it before work one morning.
- - ej@blarg.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:57:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: NWOR header
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Just courious why no one has mentioned the NWOR header... That is the one I
> am considering whenever I get some bucks and warm weather. I like the way it
> connects to the cat. No slip on joint to loosen up... it bolts up. I've
Well, it *used* to bolt up, they're more recent add's show a strange ball
joint coupling. It doesn't look like a very good way to seal it up, but
then again, I haven't seen it in person. Does anybody know why this would
be better than their old connectors? I noticed that their new tacoma 4cyl
header uses the old style connector..
> actually seen it in their showroom. It looks nice. I also like the fact that
> they have more than one design for diffferent vehicles... Downey is one size
> fits all so to speak.
That's kind of what I was thinking...though I haven't looked at the NWOR
catalogue in a while. What different models do they make? I guess I
don't really see why you would need different types of headers when all
the 22r's are basically the same (AFAIK).
But I do like the idea of a lifetime warranty and the thicker guage
material though. How does this header compare to the LC header?
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:53:25 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: NWOR header
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
June wrote:
> Just courious why no one has mentioned the NWOR header... That is the one I
> am considering whenever I get some bucks and warm weather. I like the way it
> connects to the cat. No slip on joint to loosen up... it bolts up. I've
I have the NWOR header and find it works well, though the 'chrome' plating
didn't stay on the tubes up closest to the head very long. I seriously
contemplated having it jet coated when I got but they wanted $85 to take
the chrome off, I thought I could 'drive' it off and I have ...
Besides that, the header works excellently, I can pull long hills in
5th gear that I never could before. Can't say that it helped low-end
torque .... but this is a 4-cyl motor, not much is going to help it
alot short of a welder and two more cylinders ...
One guy a few weeks ago said that he had owned all three headers
(NWOR, Downey, and LC Engin.) and he said the 4-to-1's outperformed
the tri-y's all the way around. And that the LC Engin. was the best of
all but it's quite xpensive. I see a Thorley header and one other
for sale in alot of the go-fast parts catalogs but have never heard
of anyone owning either, they're priced around the same as the others
$199 ...
Be sure to get larger tube exhaust from whereever possible, before and
after the cat, or you'll be negating some of the benefit of the header.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:52:44 +0000
From: "Brian D. Swearingen"
Subject: exhaust
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
First, I have been really enjoying the discussion on torsion
bars....much of what is being said supports my views on them
completely.
Recently, there was discussion regarding different cat-back exhausts
and their qualities. Unfortunately, all of it surrounded the sound
of the exhaust and not the performance. Personally, I want my truck
as quiet as possible, but also would like the added torque that an
aftermarket exhaust can provide. I do a great deal of towing and
light offroading and am looking for recommendations. What worked the
best for your truck, as far as seat of the pants power increases?
Brian D. Swearingen
Menasha, Wisconsin
woody@vbe.com
'74 FJ40...350, 4-speed, 33"s, rearch, EZ-lock/Auburn,
Scout PS, Warn 8274, "IH8MUD"
'69 FJ40...frame and custom body only right now!
'95 Toyota Pickup...2" lift, 32"s
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:58:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: exhaust
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Recently, there was discussion regarding different cat-back exhausts
> and their qualities. Unfortunately, all of it surrounded the sound
> of the exhaust and not the performance. Personally, I want my truck
> as quiet as possible, but also would like the added torque that an
> aftermarket exhaust can provide. I do a great deal of towing and
> light offroading and am looking for recommendations. What worked the
> best for your truck, as far as seat of the pants power increases?
I think the sound really does add to the 'feeling' of power (IMHO). Not
on the highway, or on the trail, but just when driving around on the road
(like most of us do 90% of the time anyway). But on long drives, a loud
exhaust can get pretty tedious. My experience though, is that as long as
you run stock manifold/cat's even the dual glass-pack style Rancho isn't
that bad all. YMMV of course.
I've tried the Rancho (loud) and the Exhaust Tech (quiet). The exhaust
tech was roughly as loud as the stock exhaust. I did notice a bit more
power, and the ability to hold 5th easier. When I switched over to the
Rancho, I didn't notice much more 'actual' power...but my truck sure
seemed a lot more fun to drive (sporty I guess). But don't go with the
exhaust tech, it's cheesy setup, and I don't like the way it exits below
the springs.
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 13:28:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Toy4x4s@aol.com
Subject: NWOR header
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Jonathan says:
<
Subject: NWOR header
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Quoting from my 1995 [NWOR] catalog...
> Custom designed for each year with all emmission fittings and O2 sensor
> located correctly and welded in place. Not a "Brand 'D' " one header fits
> all...
>
> ... quick ans simple installation... This Header Fits!
Quoting from my 1996 Downey catalog:
"Some header suppliers prefer an endless number of header designs for an
endless number of models. Downey prefers to combine designs whenever
possible and/or practical to keep your cost as low as possible. It's not
too difficult to develop a once-szie-fits-all type Header when the Toyota
engeins are one-size-fits-all.
But Downey also says (in the question as to why they use 16gauge versus 14
gauge steel) "14 gauge is significanlty heavier adding significantly more
vehicle weight. The highest performance vehicles are those with the least
amount of excess baggage. 14 gauge needlessly raises the cost to build,
and the freight charges to ship."
Give me a break! Like the weight difference between 14 and 16 gauge
headers is going to make any difference.
As far as I'm concerned you've really got to read everything these guys
say with a big grain of salt, They also say things like (and I believe
NWOR does too):
"When you crank up stock torsion bars to gain lift, they become pre-loaded
and give a very firm ride. When heavy duty barts are cranked up to the
same ride height, they are not preloaded, and the ride is much softer"
Which isn't true for a number of reasons:
The bars (when supporting the weight of the vehicle) are *always*
pre-loaded. No matter what the size/weight rating of the bar.
When you crank up the ride height, there is shorter moment arm, which
means less weight on the bar, and therefor less pre-load
If there is less weight on the bar, adding a heavier duty bar cannot make
the ride softer. What they are saying is like saying that an add-a-leaf
will make your suspension softer because there is less pre-load on the
spring pack. BS!
But I still think I'd get the NWOR header (over the Downey), because it
uses thicker material and has a lifetime warranty. I'm sure if it made
less power than Downey's, Downey would certainly mention that, but they
don't.
There seems to be a lot of conflicting info between these two
catalogs...it's kinda funny to read them side by side.
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:38:05 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Headers - continued...
To: " - (052)Toy4x4s (a) aol.com"
June:
As far as I know there are two "big" players (Downey, NWOR)
One "Niche player ($$) (LC Engineering)
Several "Cheapies" (Hooker etc.)
Homebrews (local muffler shop - "Yeah - I watched I guy make some once")
As I recall - the LC ones cost the most ($280), but are pre -coated in ceramic;
also they do NOT have a slip fitting (latest incantation - and I've installed
4 different version in the same year truck)
LC also has differnt designs fore each differnt setup/ year range
LC also offers different *diameters* for differnce performance requirements
(street vs high rpm)
I like em...
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:26:08 -0800
From: "John J. Mackiewicz"
Subject: Headers - continued...
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I struggled with the Downey/NWOR decision for months and finally
settled on the LC Engineering header (you convinced me Ed). I ordered
it last Thursday so I should get it this week. The guys at LC are very
helpful. This is for my '83 Longbed. Even though they did not advertise
one in the catalog for my model truck they stocked one that would fit
(1.5" w/o O2 fittings). They even called me the next day to tell me the
were sending me a different length connector pipe than the one they
originally told me about. Seems someone new the specifics about my
truck. They also said if I had any problems with the fit they would wave
the $50.00 restock fee!
As far as performance/quality I am sold on LC's technical abilities
based on their catalogs and reputation. They KNOW the Toyota 2Xr and
thats the only engine they build. Also I prefered the ceramic coating
over chrome based on the reviews of the other headers (rust). I was
very close with going with the Downey header. I respect their test
data, I have a hard time buying all of NWOR's hype.
I will let you all know how the LC install goes,
john.j.mackiewicz@boeing.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:38:07 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Headers - more $0.02
To: " - (052)Toy4x4 (a) tlca.org"
One thought that occured - the LC headers are one "only" ones claiming to
reuse a stock Yota exhaust gasket (which has metal rings).
WIth respect to the "ball joint" on the NWOR heards. While I do understand
NWOR's argument with respect to "alignment" on a welded flange, I did
NOT notice that issue when installing an LC header on a 90 4Runner.
If the header is welded on a proper jig - that issue is moot.
If the header is welded "free hand" then I do see that the ball joint can
compensate for a poor flange alignment.
As far as cost - you get what you pay for.
LC will also sell flanges and U bends so that you cna make yer own...
I do agree that older (90, 92) LC headers did have "issues", but since the
new owners/move things seem to have gotten better
EWong
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:23:17 -0800
From: Dennis Kaill
Subject: V6 header modification?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On my 93 SR5 V6 it has always seemed odd and inefficient to me the way
the right exhaust pipe will wrap around the rear of the engine to the
left side pipe and connect there. I know Performance Products makes a
kit to separate the two and have them flow into a "Y" arrangement. Has
anybody done this? How did it effect power, mileage, etc.?
A couple of years ago I had a "cat-back" system of larger exh. pipe and
better flow-through muffler put on just behind the cat. converter and it
seemed to add enough torque to be noticeable on hills, so I am
suspicious about the funky stock header system.
TIA
Den
denb@rockisland.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:16:23 +0100
From: Earle Rother
Subject: V6 Headers
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I have installed the Downey Headders in my truck 88 V6 in 1990. I had to
make one special tool - I took a craftsman 12pt 14mm box wrentch and cut
the open end off to make the wrench shorter. I did not use the downey cross
over pipe, mine is all custom welded. The stock rear crossover is a pain
to get out but not impossible - you must lower the rear of the engine/trans
to get it out. It took me a full day to remove the stock stuff and install
the headers. As far as performace - I like it and you can ask Scott Wilson
what he thinks, he drove it a couple weeks ago. I am
thinking of going with a dual exhaust with dual cats and mufflers but I
live in california and I am concerned on how legal it is. (any one have any
comments???) Does any one know if the back pressure will be too low if I do
this?
thanks,
Earle
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:15:10 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: V6 Headers
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I really impressed with Earle's headers. Both of us have '88 V6's. I
have Jacobs wire, Platinum plugs, sythetic oil, and a K&N. Earle had
headers. :) His V6 would kick my V6's butt any day. Even though my
4Runner weighs more than his extra cab p/u, his engine was noticably
stronger. It has much more power all over the band. His could pull
away from a light in 2nd with reasonable speed, piece of cake, mine
takes a bit more clutch to do the same, and it isn't as quick. At
higher RPM his engine still had more power, and it made you (me) not
want to shift, it was so smooth in the upper band.
After driving Earle's truck I really want to get the Downey headers on
my truck, it is offically on the wish list. :) I'm thinking about the
dual exhaust like he is also. I'd probably have it all done custom at
the same time. But alas, I'm still a student, so who knows when it'll
happen.
Scott
- --
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:35:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duckguy@aol.com
Subject: Downey CARB Header install on '88 22RE 4 runner
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Here is the latest chapter in my quest for HP/Torque increase in my '88 22RE
4Runner. Installments to date include K&N Filter charger (noticeable
improvement)
Borla Cat Back exhaust system (more subtle improvement in HP good improvement
in exhaust sound), new Champion truck plugs (replacing split fires, don't
waste your money on the Splits...they give some improvement at first but it
falls off and IMHO not worth the extra $)
Downey install
Quality observations:
- Noticeable ridges in pipes where some sort of tool was used to grip
them. looked like it was done after chroming. worried it may lead to
earlier rust problems.
- Flange was a bit rough on face especially around the edges..used file to
mill it dead flat.
- Catalytic converter connector seems a bit cheesy has slotted ears
instead of bolt holes (O2 sensor is mounted in/on it).
- Header to catalytic converter flange pipe is simple tubing not chromed.
- supplied hardware is common stuff. Cadmium plated mild steel no
stainless or brass.
- No gasket supplied for the catalytic converter flange to catalytic
converter connection or the air injector manifold to air injector manifold
supply pipe. Pick up some of these from the dealer prior to doing the
install.
Installation Observations:
- Recommend warming up the engine and giving all the bolts/studs etc a
good soaking with a quality penetrating oil. All nuts & studs came off easily
this way. Didn't do this with the Borla Cat Back install and had REAL
problems with the Catalytic converter studs!!
- Biggest problem, The Downey header flange thickness although
impressively beefy, is less than the factory manifold flange thickness.
Because the exhaust manifold studs were not threaded far enough in towards
the head, I ended up needing additional thickness of gasket (I used the
Downey supplied header to head gasket PLUS factory gasket PLUS flat washers
and lock washers [not supplied in kit] to raise the nuts high enough on the
studs so that they would clamp down on the flange properly). Note: I don't
know if I'll experience problems with using the two gaskets, but by also
using the factory one, I get the advantage of shielding some of the heat off
of the two center plugs. It sure seems noticeably hotter in the engine bay
with the headers.
- Heed the instructions to use Copper Kote gasket compond on all gaskets
and threaded fasteners to promote sealing, avoid leaks and help insure ease
of removal later.
- Instruction sheet was inaccurate on blocking off O2 port didn't have to
use any block off plates. (Instruction sheet indicated I'd need at least
one).
- Instruction sheet did not mention need to use (supplied) pipe threaded
plug for hole in the center bottom of the exhaust flange
- Must bend rear tab on back of air injector manifold and file some of it
off where it connects to the injector manifold pipe to clear header
pipe/allow manifold to fully seat on the exhaust manifold flange. (be certain
here as it would be easy to get a mis-mount that would leak)
- Had to cut off about 8"in. of supplied header to Catalytic converter
adapter pipe. I assume they include plenty of pipe to accommodate all
installation applications (Long beds?)
- Otherwise, straight forward and easy installation. took me about 2
hours lazing along.
Concerns after installation:
- Heat maintenance? w/o factory heat shield to shield distributor,coil,
heater hoses.
- Increased concern over rust (see quality comment above).
Power/performance observations:
- Power seems to come on better and definite increase in torque between
1500 to 3000 rpm.
- Top end a little disappointing.
- Noticeable increase in exhaust sound. More throaty and sounds good with
the Borla Cat back.
- have not had in long enough for economy observations. Will report later
on these.
Miscellaneous:
- continue to be impressed with Toyota OEM quality. The exhaust header
and pipes removed have plenty of life left in them (after 111,000 miles).
- surmise that the OEM Catalytic Converter is now the "Restrictive"
element in my intake/exhaust plumbing. (anyone care to comment on best
choice of free flow catalytic converter replacement and if it was worth
replacing).
Email with questions or comments and recommendations for next step in the
quest. My hunch is a cam is the next logical step in the evolution of added
power.
Regards
Bob "the Duck" Lancaster
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:03:19 +0200
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Downey CARB Header install on '88 22RE 4 runner
To:
> - Noticeable ridges in pipes where some sort of tool was used to grip
>them. looked like it was done after chroming. worried it may lead to
>earlier rust problems.
No offense intended, but you're kidding yourself if you think the chrome
on that header will stay with it for any length of time. If you don't
want it to rust, get it Jet Hot coated ! You're probably asking why
won't the chrome stay?? Here's how you'll know yourself, get driving down
the highway at 60-70 mph and pull over REAL quick and stop, jerk open
the hood and see what color your header is ? If you stopped fast enough,
it'll be glowing orange ! Most header chrome won't live through that
for very long, mine is quite rusted now ....
- jack
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:42:53 -0500
From: Jody Young
Subject: Headers on!
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
After nine days of "shipping" from California, my Downey header finally
came in for my 94 Xtracab 22RE.
Very easy job, but a bitch to keep the o2 sensor mounting from leaking.
(finally had to buy some high temp 1/16" gasket material, cut them to
shape, and double up on them)
Exhaust manifold nuts came off easily, probably because I soaked them
the night before, and probably because I only have 26,000 miles.
Put on a free flow cat at the same time, but I was expecting more "umph"
out of the two. I've already got a K&N, so of course, the next step
will be a high-flow muffler.
I think I'll go with the Dynomax cat-back system. Someone emailed me
and said that Summit Racing had them for about $80. Catalog should be
here in a couple of days, so I'll know for sure.
It seems that at highway speed (75mph) my rpm's have gone down about
300-400 (or more), but I have my factory tires on now. My Swampers
usually go on about Sept. for hunting season and that's why I wanted a
bit more power out of my truck.
Just wanted to inform so those who are thinking about a header will know
that it really is an easy, do-it-yourself job.(on the 4 cyl)
Jody
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:16:31 -0400
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Cracked header = running "rich" (EFI only)
To: " - (052)Toy4x4(a)tlca.org"
Rob Boyle asked:
Ed, I was wondering how a crack in the header puts more gas down there?
could you explain how this happens?
First - this applies to the EFI engines only.
Second - the crack was HUGE. I had wrapped the header in Thermo Tec.
That stuff is great - but further inquiry after the incident indicates
that it works almost TOO well - it tends to melt - literally -
the headers after about a season of use.
In my case, the crack appears to have started where the seam
was in the tubing. The split was about 2 inches long and
was wide enough to push a stack of 3 pennies into the tube.
You really didnt "hear" the hole because the ThermoTech worked
so well at holding everything in the tubes.
For the EFI - some hints that it ran rich -
one was increased gas consumption (from 20mpg to 12 mpg
is a definate change)
increased heat from the cat (hmmm melting)
This happened in the winter so it was not as noticible.
What happens is the crack lets air into the exhaust. This air is
seem by the 02 sensor as a lean condition and it dumps
more fuel in to counter act the lean. Thats my theory anyway.
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 17:51:30 -0700
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: headers
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Steve Capuano wrote:
>
> At 09:36 PM 9/1/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >Steve,
> >
> >How do you like your headers? How much trouble did you have?
> >Are they worth the price? What kind of power increase did you get?
> >Very interested if they are worth it....
>
> Power: I lost a little low end, but gained mucho on top end.
Strange, I got the opposite effect with my Doug Thorley header... I got
the top end back and then some with the 2.5" exhaust and flowmaster
muffler. Mine were a breeze to install but I have an 83 4cyl
- --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brandon Miller email: sac78483@saclink.csus.edu
Sacramento, CA millerb@gaia.ecs.csus.edu
url: http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb/4x.html
1983 Toyota LB locked F&R, 5.29:1 gears, roll cage, etc. etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 19:35:49 -0500
From: dinoc@express-news.net
Subject: Bilstein, KYB (header)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Sorry. I didn't mean to be incomplete in my response. I have a 1987
4Runner with a 22RE, four-cylinder engine.
I installed a Hookman Header about three years ago, but was not
impressed with the quality of the material. The flange that connected to the
exhaust port was not heavy metal, and I feared it would suffer heat stress,
warping, etc. Additionally, the flange where the header met with exhaust
pipe kept blowing out gaskets. I must have gone through four or five gaskets
before I scrapped the header and reverted to the stock exhaust manifold. The
Hookman Header was relatively quiet, except when the gasket was blown
underneath the cab.
I installed that header myself in about 30 minutes. After having
some friends at a muffler shop remove the tailpipe from the stock exhaust
manifold, I removed the manifold and stock gasket, and installed the
Hooker-supplied gasket and header. I went back to the muffler shop and they
hooked up the tailpipe. The job took about 30-45 minutes. There was no pesky
crossover pipe to deal with like those of you with the better-powered
six-cylinder engines. The job on my 4Runner was quite simple.
The Downey header was an easy choice because the catalog described
the connection to the tailpipe as a slip-on flange. In other words, one pipe
went into another. I had a muffler shop do it because I didn't want to have
a muffler shop remove the tailpipe, do home and install the new header, and
then drive back to the muffler shop to reconnect the piping. The NWOR header
likes just as appealing because of its connection to the tailpipe. However,
I can't address its effectiveness since I've never driven a truck that has one.
I was reluctant to mess with the piping this time around because its
bolts were tightened with a pneumatic drill.
Dino Chiecchi '87 4Runner, 22RE
San Antonio, TX 31X11.50 Firestone ATX
K&N filtercharger
Bilstein shocks
Downey header
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:14:08 -0800
From: "Raymond Kumar"
Subject: downey header
To: "Toyota 4x4 Digest"
I use Downey headers both at work and on my 85 4runner and have found them
to be the best header available for the 4 cylinder engines,noise is usually
minimal except when a leak occurs which is common with the gasket
provided(an irritating flutter) our shop has found used the stoch toyota
gasket is a better alternative.
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 19:29:06 -0500
From: Bob Bascom
Subject: Downy Header
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
When I put there header on my 4runner I had a leak where the header and
the bent downpipe merge. I put in a second clamp and it cured up. i too
had the strange smell at first but it went away. mine isnt really any
louder than stock.
Ryan Bascom
'87 4runner
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:10:39 -0500
From: Rob Ditusa
Subject: Downy Header
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I put the Downey header and complete exhaust system (with the
Dynomax Super Turbo muffler) on my 20R, and noticed a substantial
increase in power. Initially, there was a funky burning-type smell, but it
disappeared pretty fast. Once the header turned blue, the smell was
gone.
I would double check for leaks, as you shouldn't hear a "leak-type"
sound, you should just hear a difference under acceleration, more of a
deeper rumble.
I'm satisfied with the system, except the "one size fits all years" is a
bunch of crap!!!!! I had to do some serious modifications to the pipes, to
clear the rear axle, left rear shock, and had to remove the left rear mud
flap. I called Downey while underneath my truck and they acted like I
was a retard, like I wasn't understandind the whole picture. They
(Kenney) were nice enough, but told me, of course, that they never
heard of any problems like I was having!!!!
RD
1980 LB
>>> Mark 11/02/97 12:12pm >>>
To anyone else who has a Downy Header on their 4 cyl.
How much more noise did you get from the engine compartment? I just
put mine on, and it almost sounds like it has a leak when the engine
is being loaded, and is very noticable from inside, otherwise it doesn't
sound much differnt. I just figured this was the headers sound, but
I'm geting a seroiusly nasty smell in cab now. Could this be a little
grease it the pipes, or what? I used copper permatex on all the gaskets
(700 degree stuff) so I don't think I sould have a leak, I could just be
retarded though. Any past expirence welcome.
ps I have noticed a little more power around 2500 rpm's so I think the
darn thing is actualy working.
thanks
Mark Kitlinski
'85 Xtra cab
Kitlinski@worldnet.att.net
http://www.geocities.com/baja/dunes/2580/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 09:38:21 -0800
From: Mark Hansen
Subject: Downey header
To: "Toyota 4x4 list"
Mark,
A header is by nature a little louder than the stock exhaust manifold.
The stock manifold is thick cast iron, the header is thin rolled steel,
you WILL hear more noise. If the noise you are hearing sounds like it is
coming from one cylinder only, then a gasket may be the problem. If,
however, the noise is steady, that is the nature of a header. The NWOR
header I installed on my last truck provided me with a nice crackling
noise as the engine fired. I kind of liked it.
A couple of words of advice from my experience. First, use the Red
Permatex gasket goop, it works! Second, the nut/stud at the bottom rear
of the exhaust manifold will typically back out and you'll end up blowing
the gasket there. Toyota now uses bolts instead of a threaded stud with
a nut to hold the exhaust manifold on. I STRONGLY recommend at least
replacing the lower rear stud with the bolt. After I did that, no more
exhaust gasket problems.
I think that either gasket should work, just make sure you use the
appropriate gasket goop, torque the header down evenly, and replace those
studs with bolts.
Happy horsepower!
Mark H.
'87 4Runner
San Jose, CA
- ----------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:54:33 -0800
From: Michael Henry
Subject: Why headers melt when wrapped
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Just a note on this: all the engineering knowledge in the world is nice
but I have had quite a bit of real world experience with header wraps.
On one of my own cars (Datsun 240Z) I have had the header wrap on it for
over 10 years now with absolutely no problems. It keeps the interior of
the engine compartment cooler and takes away the boominess of the header.
As far as improved exhaust scavenging goes, well, I don't really think it
makes a significant difference. But the two above advantages are enough
for me. I have been involved in amateur racing for some years and of all
the people I have encountered who run header wrap, none have ever melted
a header.
Michael Henry
Forestville, CA
henry@sonic.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:24:42 -0500
From: Ed Ruf
Subject: Why headers melt when wrapped
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On 07:54 AM 11/11/97 -0800, Michael Henry wrote:
>
>Just a note on this: all the engineering knowledge in the world is
nice but I have had quite a bit of real world experience with header
wraps. On one of my own cars (Datsun 240Z) I have had the header
wrap on it for over 10 years now with absolutely no problems. It
keeps the interior of the engine compartment cooler and takes away
the boominess of the header. As far as improved exhaust scavenging
goes, well, I don't really think it makes a significant difference.
But the two above advantages are enough for me. I have been involved
in amateur racing for some years and of all the people I have
encountered who run header wrap, none have ever melted a header.
Point taken. I to had a similar experience crewing for a SCCA GT-1 in
SoCal back in the mid/late '80's. The point I was trying to make was
how it could happen.
Depends on what you mean by a significant increase. We saw maybe a 1%
(~5-6HP) increase on the dyno, that appeared statistically
significant. Considering for the most part the gain is free, why not
take it. Alos in our case it wasn't so much under hood temps, but
driver foot temps that were important. It's not unheard of for it to
be 120+ in the shade at Willow Springs in the summer.
Ed
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:09:36 -0500
From: Ed Ruf
Subject: Why headers melt when wrapped (wasBorla not loud)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On 11:24 PM 11/10/97 -0500, Bill Miranda wrote:
>3. Why would it melt a good header? Headers are wrapped for improved
>exhaust scavenging. If Borlas (as they allege) are thicker than normal
>stainless,.. I believe your engine would be a lovely pool of metal and
>assorted parts before your headers melted.
Simple heat transfer calculation. The exhaust gases enter the header
at a fixed temperature. Normally, the header temperature is just a
heat balance between the hot exhaust gas side, small temperature
gradient in the wall thickness and the cool outside. This can be
thought of as three resistors in series of various values. The
greatest resistance is the loss of heat from the outside.
By wrapping the header you have added an two additional very large
resistors in series. So you greatly reduce the heat loss, which is
what you'd want to do to keep the exhaust velocity high (your
improved scavenging). The problem is that the temperature of the
header has been increased too.
In this electrical analog, the voltage is the analog of temperature.
The exhaust gas and ambient under hood temps are approximately
constant. So in the analog, the applied voltage is fixed. The temp
drop is equal to the voltage drop for each resistor.
(Fixed pitch font required for circuit diagram)
___ ___ V1 (T1 = tgas)
| |
| |
/ /
\ \
\ R1 \ Gas to inner wall
/ /
| |
| |
_|_ _|_ V2 (Twall_inner)
| |
| |
/ /
\ \
\ R2 \ Wall thickness
/ /
| |
| |
_|_ _|_ V3 (Twall_outer)
| |
| |
/ /
\ R3 \ R3'
\ Outer wall to air \ Outer wall to wrap
/ /
| |
| |
_|_ V4 (T air) _|_ V4 (Twrap_inner)
|
/
\
\ R4
/ Wrap thickness
|
|
_|_ V5 (Twrap_outer)
|
/
\
\ R5
/ Wrap to air
|
|
_|_ V6 (T air)
R2 is almost neglige. R3' and R4 are much larger than all else. R3'
because of poor contact between the tap and the header, which is
actually good for insulation. R4 because the thermal conductivity of
the tape is small, it's a ceramic fiber woven tape. The material
conductivity is small and the fibers contact is less than if it were
all one solid piece.
The result is by adding the tape the temp of the header goes up. The
current in the above analogs is equivalent to the heat loss.
Ed
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:22:05 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: header melt
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
header melt....is that like tuna melt - or turdmostadt melt :)
anywho - yes I did melt a header. Or perhaps I should clarify that.
The ThermoTech was arapped around an LC ceramic coated header -
back when LC owned the place.
At that time - I didnt know better, and had the header to cat pipe
"streatched" a bit so that it would fit together. Of course, it
was streatched a bit too much - so I never got a real good seal there.
This "leak" is in FRONT of the O2 sensor - so that means that the
EFI just "added" more gas - ran rich.
Second - the header did not "melt" so much as it "split" open
along a line (I guess the tubing had a seam) for about 5" or so.
the center of the seam split spread apart about 1/4-1/2 inch.
Actually - from inside the engine compartment - it was not
noticible - thats how well the thermotec worked.
Anyway - after that - I stopped wrapping the header.
The second one died of a broken weld on the "extra"
O2 fitting.
The third is slowly rusting and has drooped enough to
hit the sway bar (which is slowly denting the pimary pipe)
mind you - the all have lasted about 75K miles - which as I
understand is a common issue with headers - they
dont last as long as cast iron.
just trying to set the "melt" record straight...
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:06:40 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Downey 4 Cyl. Header Install--Suggestion/Tips?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org, dfbooth01@worldnet.att.net
>> David Booth asks:
>> I'm going to help my brother install a
>> Downey header in his 1989 4 cyl.
>> Automatic 4Runner this Saturday.
>> He's going to hook it up to the stock
>> catalytic converter with an adapter
>> for now, and then replace the rest
>> of the exhaust system later. It looks
>> like a fairly straight forward
>> job, but I'd like to hear any tips
>> or suggestions someone may have.
Im more used to using LC Engineering headers, but
these tips may apply.
Also I have a 22RE with a 5speed manual on an 89 Gen1 body.
Ive found that the best bolt combo is to use
stainless steel bolts (in 1/2 or 7/32 size)
with all metal lock nuts (aka "ovalated").
These will NOT come loose (and are just as
hard to undo when the time comes).
The OEM cat gaskets tend to work better. The
OEM Cat and pipes have a male/female type fit,
but the gaskets work well with the aftermarket
"flat" flanges as well.
Dont bother trying to get the O2 sensor off
of the tail pipe. Ive found it much easier
to disconnect the O2 sensor (on mine the
connector is under the seat) and work
on the bolts on the ground.
Get a few extra studs for the exhaust side
as well as the requiste taps. They are either
8mm x 1.25 pitch or
10mm x 1.25 pitch (Im pretty sure they are the 10mm)
The OEM studs have a "shoulder" that sometimes
casues headers to "hang up". A reamer might be
handy here (as well as a plastic faced hammer!)
On non Kalifornia models - there is an "air injector"
manifold that is "above" the exhaust manifold.
This bolts tot he manifold using the same studs
as the manifold. It also bolts to a cross over
pipe using "fixed" studs. Its a bear to get out
because you cant move it "back" because the
crossover studs hang up, and you cant move
it sideways becuase the exhaust studs hang up
and you cant take the exhaust studs out becuase
theres not enuff thread to get two nuts on the
stud.
Remove the pipe by *carefully* bending the
crossover pipe just enuff to get the manifold
out.
NOW - fix this harassment permanently!
Cut off the two studs on the manifold.
File them down nice and flat.
Use a center punch and a drill to drill
and tap appropriate bolt holes (I used 8mm x 1.25,
but thats to keep the threads on the truck
fairly consistant). Now this manifold will go in
*much* easier as there are no studs to hang up, and
you simply bolt the manifold back together.
(You will of course need to have bolts that
match the threads you just cut).
While at the dealer getting some OEM Catalytic
gaskers, get the three gaskets you will need for the
crossover manifold (if you have it) Two go up
against the manifold and one is for the crossover
connection.
Oh - it helps to drop the sway bar from the frame
(you dont need to take it all the way off)
Also, somtimes the "heat shield" that covers
the back side of the upper A Arm gets in the way.
If the Downey header is stil using the
"slip fit" type connectors, the DynoMax type of
"band" clamp may seal better than the U bolt type.
Racer Wholesale has em for $7 (1-800-886-7223)
It probably the best bang fer buck mod that
can be made on the 22RE!
EWong
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 09:50:56 -0800
From: Mark Hansen
Subject: Downey 4 Cyl. Header Install--Suggestion/Tips?
To: "Toyota 4x4 list" ,
Dave,
I have two suggestions for you.
1. Soak the header studs/nuts overnight with some penetrating oil to
encourage them to come off.
2. Buy new exhaust header bolts from Toyota.
I had a continual problem with the header nut nearest the firewall coming
loose. I went to a Toyota dealer who told me they had stopped using the
stud and nut arrangement and gone to a bolt instead. I installed the
bolt and never again had to re-tighten it.
Other than that, install and enjoy! Use the right gasket sealer if it is
recommended. The NWOR (satan company) header I installed recommended the
Red Permatex gasket goop.
Mark
'87 4Runner
- ----------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:06:16 PST
From: "Mitch Housh"
Subject: Hedman Headers
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Folks this ia a Warning.
I needed a new header for my 1984 Toy X-Cab SR-5 4X4. I looked all over
Oklahoma City,OK but found out I had to "special order" it. I found that
a automotive speed shop here could order from Hedman so I E-mailed
Hedman to find out more info and they told me all parts,reducer, and
gaskets were included. They also stated that it would not bolt up to the
stock exaust and that slight exaust modifications would be necessary.
That was all fine as I can use my torch to modify it. So I placed my
order and a week later the header arrived. I was very disappointed to
find out that after I cut my old exaust system in half to remove my old
header, the new one would not fit. The 4th cylinder tube comes straight
out to where the heater hose is at. I could modify the metal tube which
routes the water for my heater but I would rather keep the stock
system. Well I'm about 2 weeks into trying to get Hedman to send a
return authorization to my vendor so I can try to get most of my money
back but so far I still have a Hedman header and no money for a header
that fits correctly.
I'm trying to contact Downey so I can find out if they have a plain
steel header since I don't want a chrome header and I only want to pay
close to $100 for a new header.
So to all of you that have a Toyota P/U and want a header that fits for
it.....
DON'T BUY FROM "HEDMAN HEDDERS"
DON'T BUY FROM "HEDMAN HEDDERS"
DON'T BUY FROM "HEDMAN HEDDERS"
DON'T BUY FROM "HEDMAN HEDDERS"
They have lied to me and they will to you!!! So beware!!!
Mitch Housh
Yukon,OK
1984 Toyota X-Cab SR-5 4X4 22R
mdhoush@hotmail.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:53:06 MDT -0600
From: ggibb@msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: RE: HEADDER PROBLEM SOLVED
Those of you having a hell of a time with NWOR headders, may have spent
$300 for nothing, but the rest of you may learn from their misfortune. I
Bought headders from the doug thourly company in 89' the headders fit fine
And performed well for 8 years at which time one of the tubes cracked. I got
On the horn with doug thourley and they sent me a new set no questions
Asked. Cost me $4.75 for shipping, and the new headder came with all the
Gaskets etc. Needed, they fit perfectly too. Doug thorely makes a great
Product and is an excellent company that stands behind it's product. My
Advice is to avoid the hassel with nwor when ever possible and in this case
Doug thorely makes an excellent tri y headder that fits, works, and they
Stand behind.
Geoff gibb
Bozeman, mt
85' 22r with doug thorely headders
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:15:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Frederick Vachss
Subject: Re: 4 cyl. headers
I just installed the Downey header on my '86 4Runner (old exhaust manifold
was cracked - why not?). No particular problems with the install, but
I wasn't too terribly impressed with Downey's manufacturing quality either.
They no longer weld the top quarter or so of the header tubes on the outside
of the manifold flange to facilitate clearance of smog plumbing. This means
that they rely completely on the inner weld for sealing. This may work, I
guess, and certainly showed no leaks right away, but I wonder about the
longevity of the unit.
As far as the results are concerned maybe I was expecting too much, but
I didn't feel any dramatic change in seat of the pants acceleration, nor
did I notice any significant increase in exhaust noise. And yes, I pulled
my cat for inspection during the installation and found it unclogged - at
least I could see light through all but one or two of the little honeycomb
cells. The remainder of the exhaust system is stock.
Fred Vachss
'86 4 Runner, 280K miles/700 miles on engine #2.
------------------------------
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