Motor Swaps

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Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:51:44 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: 36" Swampers
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

Jay Kopycinski  wrote:

        "One caution when doing this is that you may find
        the stock gears more appropriate after swapping in
        a V6 or V8. It might be worth your while to
        carefully plan ahead at this point to help ensure
        you don't have to swap gears twice. Also, 5.29s
        will be weaker then numerically lower ratio sets."

Absolutely. No argument whatsoever from me, especially where Jay advises to
"...carefully plan ahead at this point..." And I also realize that people
who want a bigger motor, WANT A BIGGER MOTOR. But there are a few reasons I
would recommend a ring & pinion swap before a motor swap:

1) People are almost always surprised by how usable a properly geared
off-road vehicle is. At least they are in my truck. Hey, my pickup used to
have 3.90's with 32.5" tall tires. I KNOW what improperly geared means. If
you are running 36" tires with 4.10's, you've essentially given away 4th
and 5th gear, and first is so tall that it's about what 2nd was originally.
We've beaten proper final-drive to death here, but I think we're all pretty
much agreed that it's fairly essential, no matter what motor you have. The
variable is what motor/trans you have (or desire). I would not run 5.29's
with a V6, but I would not run 4.10's either (probably 4.56's - it depends
on a number of variables, not the least of which is: what are you going to
use the truck for?).

2) I have done about 2 dozen motor swaps since I was 15. These have been in
all matter of vehicles, including a built Olds 455 in a fully-framed VW
single-cab Type II (we used a Toronado transaxle to make it mid-engined),
Chevy 302 in a Porsche 914, Pontiac Ram Air IV 400 in a Chevy LUV pickup
(nightmare!), and a tunnel-rammed Chevy Rat motor in a '59 Bugeye Sprite
(we did this just to see how outrageous we could be).

IMHO, motor swaps are fun, but a person should be aware of all the
consequences of a motor swap. These include investing a great deal of money
to do the swap properly (50-100% above your original estimate), double the
time you originally estimated, and innumerable trips to junkyards, dealers,
and auto-parts stores for small parts, no matter how carefully you plan.
Even if you buy a swap kit from Downey, Northwest, etc., it is still a
chore. The huge variety of motors and configurations of motors from
domestic manufacturers (esp. GM) make it virtually impossible to predict
how quickly the project will finish.

A person should be equipped to do fabrication work on-site, or be
financially able to farm this work out. A person should have dedicated (to
the end) help, from at least one, or preferably more, people. A person
should have an understanding and patient spouse, significant other, family,
parents. A person should carefully plan as much as possible to have ALL the
parts on-site before turning a wrench, because "Next-Day Air" can quickly
become "Backordered for 60 Days."

Downey, Northwest, Advance Adapters, et. al., give you the tools
(instructions and adapters) to bring you 90% of the way there; the question
remains: Do you have the other 10%?

If I were to do a motor swap into a Toyota Pickup: if it were a V6, it
would be a Chevy 4.3 Vortec from a Chevy S-10 (the 190-195 hp one) backed
by the S-10's 5-speed; if it were a V8, it would be a small-block Ford
(because of size considerations) backed by a C-6 and a Ford 9", or the new
Chevy V8's, such as BTB is now using in their LandCruiser swaps (because of
tractability and linearity).

3) Related to #2: Motor swaps ALWAYS produce more engineering challenges.
For instance, beefing up springs, trans, rear-ends, axles, brakes, etc.
This equates to more time and more money.

4) I am wary of over-motoring on off-road vehicles. Controlled power in
delicate or dangerous situations is best, IMHO. I believe the 22R and 22RE
are probably the best off-road motors ever produced because of their linear
power and rock-solid reliability. I have had enough hot-rodded motors leave
me stranded to avoid their use off-road.

I am in awe of projects like Miss Mouse. I admire the dedication people
have to realize their dream vehicle. And, let's face it, a V8 pickup is
pretty cool. But my truck gets used pretty much every day (it would have to
in order to have the 350,000 miles it currently does). I can't afford to
have it up on jack stands for a month or two. Question: would you rather be
wrenching or wheeling? I already know what my answer is.

However, since it has come out that the truck in question has a motor that
is low on compression, leaking oil, and is generally beat, now is the time
to swap, if you're going to do it. There are a lot of people on the list
who have swapped motors; I would expect them to encourage and inform those
would ponder a swap for themselves. So let's hear it, men and women! Tell
this (and other) proposed swappers what your personal experience is. That's
what we're here for, after all.

Good luck,

 - Nick

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Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:34:30 -0500 (EST)
From: BCSTOY@aol.com
Subject: 36" Swampers
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

Here agaain are my two cents worth.

Just like Nick I have been doing swaps for about say 10 years, but mostly on
japanese cars and trucks (nissan, toyotas, subarus and hondas). And the most
efficient way for me has always been stock for stock. The vehicle must be
able to pass any emission test and be reliable to drive anywhere and by 
anybody, so if I sell the truck later, the person can go to the store and 
order the parts without any problem. The problem I have with home made mutant 
trucks is that they
cannot be sold to somebody, plus the fact that the vehicle is no longer
original. Features such as reliability for off and on road driving are lost 
and the vehicle becomes expensive to maintain. 

All my trucks (6) are stock but with motors that are newer than the bodies.
It is true that 4 cyl are underpower when going uphill, but none has ever 
quit on my.

So moral of the story, it depends on what you want the truck to be
a mutant 4wd or a true reliable 4x4 toy.

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Date: 30 Jan 1997 08:39:10 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski" 
Subject: 36" Swampers and engine swa
To: "Toyota 4x4 List" 

                      Subject:                              Time:  8:29 AM
  OFFICE MEMO         36" Swampers and engine swaps         Date:  1/30/97

Nick wrote an excellent response on the ins and outs of
engine swaps and provided great detail on some of the 
unforeseen problems. I don't have as much experience 
as him when it comes to swapping (have done 3), but
completely agree with him that it is not something to
be casually considered.

Cost and time expenditures will always exceed your
expectations, as will the number of trips to places
to buy all the pieces you need. His comment about 
having a patient spouse is VERY insightful.

My Chevy V6 has been in for over 5 years and has
taken me wheeling lots of places without breakdown.
When I planned it, I took steps to ensure that the swap
was going to be as reliable as the 22R I removed from
the truck. If I had felt it wouldn't be as reliable,I wouldn't 
have done the swap.

I have seen many reliable, well-executed swaps, but
many more poorly done ones with owners who probably
regretted doing it. Heed Nick's comments carefully if
you are thinking about an engine swap.

The results can be very rewarding, but it is a lot of
work to do it right.

Jay Kopycinski    '85 Toylet  (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:13:13 -0700
From: James Brink 
Subject: V6 in a California Toyota 4x4
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

In most cases, the California Air Resources Board and the Bureau of
Automotive Repair approve engine swaps provided they are done right. The
rule is the engine must be of the same year or newer than the vehicle it
is being installed in. The new engine must also contain at least the
original emissions control systems (CAT/PCV/EGR/O2 Sensors, etc). When
registering a vehicle of this variety, the owner must apply to the BAR
to get the vehicle inspected by a Referee Station. The referee station
will perform a visual and tailpipe inspection, identify that the proper
emissions systems are fitted and the vehicle passes the tailpipe test
for the year of the installed engine. If all goes well, the owner will
receive approval for the swap and will be sent a new vehicle emissions
control indentification (VECI) label to affix under the hood for future
inspections.

If the seller of this truck in question is honest, the vehicle will have
been properly smogged (seller's responsibility in CA) and certified. If
the deal seems kinda fishy, I would steer clear of it. If the improper
parts were installed, it could become a real headache to sort out.

Good Luck.

- -- 
Jim Brink				1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician		135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net			32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
					Stock 4.10 gears
					Rear Lock-Right (TRD)

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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:32:58 -0600
From: daves8@juno.com (DAVE SCHOENBERG)
To: toy4x4@tlca.org

From: daves8
To: Jay_Kopycinski@latgqmg.sps.mot.com
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:30:18 -0600
Subject: Re: Pot stirring
Message-ID: <19970711.193019.12358.0.daves8@juno.com>

Jay,  I think is an answer to something you had posted, although I am
brand new to this list and may have misinterpreted.



Saw your question about the 4.3 Turbo.  I installed a 3.8 Buick Turbo 
in my '81 4x4 and almost ruined the truck!  Engine ran very hot, got 
lousy gas mileage and had no bottom-end torque. This was after 
rebuilding it twice and installing a Kenne Bell turbo cam as well as a 
water-cooled center section. The truck would overheat below 20 mph and 
over 55 mph- obviously no good for four-wheeling or anything else.  I 
used several different flex fans as well as two different electric 
fans.  Also built a brand-new 3-row radiator which I used all through 
this. 

My engine did have a carburetor (Quadrajet) and I have no doubt that 
the EFI on the 4.3 would be much better.  The Buick was not a good 
choice.  

My conclusion of the Buick Turbo V-6 was that the engine compartment 
of the Toy is too small to dissipate the heat generated by the turbo.  
I think the non-turbo 4.3 would be an excellent choice.  If they had 
been more available several years ago, I would have used a 4.3 instead 
of the 3.8.  Don't the later 4.3's have balance shafts?  These might 
be the smoothest engines available.

Also, lots of vibration with the 3.8.  I had it balanced as 
recommended by the company I bought the adapter kit from and it was 
still very rough.

I ended up pulling the 3.8 and installing a complete 
22RE/trans/transfer from an '86 truck and have been ungodly happy ever 
since.  Only bad part was staring at all the wires for a while until I 
got up the guts to start splicing.

Whatever you do, when you set the engine in the truck set it as far 
back as you can to give the most clearance from the radiator.  You 
REALLY need a good fan.  Also, you may need to install a body lift in 
order to set the engine back.  I ended up with very little clearance 
in front of mine and that is something I would change if I were doing 
it now.

Good luck and plan on spending twice as much as you think!

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Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:03:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brian Wiencek 
Subject: Re: putting a new 20R in

> How difficult is putting a new 20R in an '80 pick-up?  It doesn't seem like
> it would be hard at all.  I have been checking around and the cheapest I've
> found is $700...just to put it in.  It seems like it's the easiest thing in
> the world...just take the carb off this one and put it on that one...etc.
> Why so much?  Is there a cheaper place near Colorado Springs?  The guy that
> has the engine says he'll warrantee the engine if a reputable person puts it
> in.

Having done a couple of engine swaps I would estimate 8-10 hours for your
first time, and about 6 once you get better at it.  This assumes that
you're cleaning things up along the way, doing little maintenance things
while the engine is out, etc.  If you're going for raw speed, then 2
people could probably do it in about 2.5-3 hrs for a long-block in an '80.
What you might try to do is simply pull the manifold (intake &
exhaust) bolts, pull the manifolds away from the engine, pull off the a/c
compressor & wire it to the fender, unplug the alternator, and then remove
the trans-bolts, and the motor mount bolts, pull the engine, swap the
accessories/brackets, then put 'er back in - that's about the only way to
do it while doing minimal work.

- - Brian


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