New Smog Laws
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:35:23 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Tacomas
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Steve Capuano wrote:
>Yesterday the local offroad shop quoted me:
>$1500 for a ProComp 4" lift
>$650 to install
>Outrageous, don't you think!!
Well, if you look at a Tacoma closely, in comparison with literally ANY
other truck, you'll see that it is more like a car than a truck underneath.
The only place where it shows it's truck heritage is the body-on-frame
construction. Although a very nice truck, one look prompted me to keep my
solid-axle Toy. As far as new Toyota trucks go, I would rather go to the
trouble of importing a foreign-market pickup than to be stuck with the
limited choices that Toyota USA offers me.
Also, if your truck is a '96 or '97 USA model, it has the OBD-2 computer,
which prevents you from changing tire size (except within about 5%), or
axle ratio, except with whatever the vehicle came with stock. It prevents
you by not running after you change the part - and registering the change
as smog equipment tampering when you have your truck smogged. The lesson?
Choose your original equipment carefully - it's what you're stuck with for
the long haul.
- Nick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 97 10:28:03 -0600
From: "Eric P. Madsen"
Subject: Tacomas
To: "Toy4x4 List"
>Well, if you look at a Tacoma closely, in comparison with literally ANY
>other truck, you'll see that it is more like a car than a truck underneath.
>The only place where it shows it's truck heritage is the body-on-frame
>construction. Although a very nice truck, one look prompted me to keep my
>solid-axle Toy. As far as new Toyota trucks go, I would rather go to the
>trouble of importing a foreign-market pickup than to be stuck with the
>limited choices that Toyota USA offers me.
How is it possible to import a foreign-market Toyota? It would be nice
to have a new solid axle Toyota, and maybe a diesel.
>Also, if your truck is a '96 or '97 USA model, it has the OBD-2 computer,
>which prevents you from changing tire size (except within about 5%), or
>axle ratio, except with whatever the vehicle came with stock.
Has this been proven?
eric
Eric P. Madsen (madsener@etca1.den.mmc.com)
Electronics Packaging Analysis, Lockheed Martin Astronautics/Denver
TLCA member #3728 / 94 Toy 4x4 Xtra-Cab SR5
"A fur trapper who was strictly from commercial . . ." - FZ
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:02:42 -0600
From: Steve Capuano
Subject: obd-2 computer
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
"Also, if your truck is a '96 or '97 USA model, it has the OBD-2 computer,
"which prevents you from changing tire size (except within about 5%), or
"axle ratio, except with whatever the vehicle came with stock. It prevents
"you by not running after you change the part - and registering the change
"as smog equipment tampering when you have your truck smogged. The lesson?
"Choose your original equipment carefully - it's what you're stuck with for
"the long haul.
" - Nick
Nick, Please tell me more about this heresy. How does it know about tire
size, and why would that be smog tampering. I understand vaguely that if
you increase tire size say from 31 to 33 or so and you change axle ratio
from say 4.10 to 5.29 you retain stock performance. If my statement is
valid then how does the computer know??
Where is this obd-2 located and can it be replaced or remapped to ignore mods?
I suddenly feel like a big floppy eared donkey for buying a 4x4 that I can't
lift put, big tires on, etc.!!!!!
Steve C.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:34:38 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Tacomas
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In response to my rant against Toyota USA's slim pickin's, Eric P. Madsen
(madsener@etca1.den.mmc.com) wrote:
>How is it possible to import a foreign-market Toyota? It would be nice to
>have a new solid axle Toyota, and maybe a diesel.
To which Bruce Burden replied:
>Unless the diesel has been qualified under EPA rules, lots 'o luck on that
>one. You can do it, but it will also have to meet all applicable Federal
>standards as well. Some of those you may have to have added. In short, I
>think it will cost a whole lot more than it is worth.
Having actually checked into this, here's what I have gotten from officials
at various sources:
If you want a foreign-market (non-USA, non-Canadian) Toyota pickup, Toyota
Gibraltar Stockings, Ltd., of - you guessed it - Gibraltar, keeps
approximately 40 of each model in stock at any given time. They have Land
Cruiser pickups, Land Cruiser Wagons, and Land Cruiser Hardtops (all 70
series - all diesel), standard-cab pickups, and double-cab pickups. Your
choice of left- or right-hand drive. Pickups come with the 4-cylinder
2779cc Diesel, 5-speed, vinyl bench seats, manual hubs, any color you want
as long as it's white, front and rear leaf springs (solid axles), halogen
headlights, 112.2" wheelbase, and a cool roll-bar/cab protector affair
welded to the bed. Options include Anti-theft package; Bull Bar; Electric
winch; Pintle Hook; Roll Cage; Communications Equipment; "Mul-T-Lock" Car
Transmission Lock; Anti Personnel Mine Protection; Anti-Vehicle Mine
Protection;. Full Ballistic Protection; Ambulance Conversions. Body style
is like the '89-95 cabs, with what looks like a '79-83 bed. These can be
delivered anywhere in the world EXCEPT for the US and Canada, so Mexico is
kosher (not really, but in a manner of speaking).
If you were to have one delivered in Mexico, for instance, you could leave
it unregistered and apply directly to a state such as California, which has
exempted its smog laws from Diesel motors, for license and registration. By
bypassing the feds, you leave the crash-testing and EPA testing behind. Not
that motorcycles have anything to do with car laws, but I recently licensed
for the street a full-blown Dakar Rally race bike (not an imposter BMW).
All that was required by the DMV was a "statement of fact," certifying that
this vehicle met all state and CHP standards for brakes, lights, safety
equipment, etc. They didn't even need to see the vehicle. Paid my money,
and voila'! License plate.
I know that the government, DMV, etc., is far harsher on cars/trucks than
on motorcycles. However, the EPA allow (or did allow, as of 1996) each US
citizen a one-time vehicle importation. This is how you buy your
German-market BMW, Porsche, etc., take European delivery, and bring it back
to the States without having to have it smogged. The EPA requires you to
own the car before you bring it over, so you must take delivery overseas
(or in Mexico). They will issue you a one-vehicle smog exemption, which is
legal in all states. The vehicle (unless it is a Diesel) must pass a
certain (low) emissions level, based on model year and displacement.
Diesels, by nature of their emissions (more dirt than gases), do not have
to pass an emissions test. If you are in the military and stationed
overseas, there is, I believe, a one-a-year limit on vehicles imported this
way.
Also, I have heard that buying a Canadian-spec vehicle was incredibly easy
for people living in the Northern climes of the US (N. Dakota, etc.). I
know that our Canuck friends get the 70 series Cruisers, though I haven't
seen any strange pickups up there that stand out in my mind.
Regarding the OBD-II computer: I have heard from friends that work for CARB
(California Air Resource Board) and for Toyota at NUMMI (all Tacoma
production), that the OBD-II will react to tampering of factory settings by
shutting down, and storing and reporting the tampering. This includes
engine rpm to vehicle speed settings. I suppose any change in tire size
would mandate a ring-and-pinion change to VERY closely approximate stock
settings, although that's an expensive proposition to simply suppose.
- Nick
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 23:40:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Kemasa
Subject: Tacomas
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org, nickkrest@batnet.com
How does the vehicle know the speed? Is there a separate wheel to
determine the speed? No. Is there a sensor which detects the ground
speed? No. The answer? It doesn't really. It know what it thinks is
the speed is based on the output of the transmission. It knows nothing
of the tire size or the front and rear diff. gears. If what was said
was true then if you got in a slippery condition you would be flagged
for smog tampering.
It sounds to me that someone is trying to scare people or they don't
have a clue of how things work.
Kemasa.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:41:34 -0600
From: Steve Capuano
Subject: obd-ii
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Look what I found when I searched for OBD-II on YAHOO
For Immediate Release
For more information, contact:
Gary D. McCoy, 847/228-1310
Tyler J. Wilson, 202/408-9550
CARB Proposes Deleting OBD II Anti-Tampering Provisions
WASHINGTON, D.C. - July 31, 1996 -- Seven automotive aftermarket
associations testified in support of California Air Resources Board
(CARB) staff proposals to eliminate anti- tampering requirements
from its On-Board Diagnostics (OBD) II regulations. The aftermarket
groups argue that the anti-tampering provisions will require vehicle
manufacturers to unfairly restrict the independent automotive parts
and service industry's access to all OBD systems.
At a July 24 meeting in El Monte, Calif., the aftermarket groups
declared that CARB's decision to scrap anti-tampering provisions
"is appropriate given that concerns over electronic tampering have
been exaggerated and have never been supported by real-world data. It
continues to be our position that Clean Air Act intended that these
systems be kept free of the types of security measures CARB has
previously required."
The aftermarket's attempt to remove the anti-tampering provisions is
severely tempered by concerns that CARB will permit car companies to
equip their vehicles with anti-tampering measures of their own design.
"By leaving anti-tampering to each manufacturer's discretion, CARB
would turn a blind eye to system designs and features which would
lock the aftermarket out from the opportunity to design OBD-compatible
products and to provide vehicle service," warned the aftermarket groups.
CARB was commended by the independent aftermarket for other proposals
which will "go far towards achieving an OBD approach within which the
aftermarket can compete." Specifically, the aftermarket associations
issued support for:
A generic platform for reprogramming which will reduce the need for
service entities to obtain manufacturers specific tools.
Reprogramming is critical because car companies provide new car
dealers with the ability to download new programs onto generic
computer chips in order to correct many emissions and driveability
related problems. In short, independents need this same capability
to remain competitive. A requirement that vehicle producers make
service information available in a standardized electronic format.
Such action would permit independent technicians to quickly locate
service information through the use of computers.
A mandate that car companies make vital information available to
independent scan tool manufacturers. This information is necessary
to ensure that independent technicians have access to enhanced
diagnostic capabilities similar to those used by the new car dealers.
The aftermarket groups further called for CARB to mandate a standardized
protocol for both the storage of vehicle identification numbers (VIN) and
the most up-to-date vehicle configuration information. The inclusion of a
repair history chart within the on-board computer will alert state
emission inspectors to unlawful acts of tampering, and simplify the job of
the service technician by providing an accurate service record for each
individual vehicle. The aftermarket reminded CARB of its support of the
work being done by a special committee of the Society for Automotive
Engineers designated to develop just such an approach. Additionally, the
associations emphasized that any program should allow for the use of
CARB-approved aftermarket calibrations.
Aftermarket groups participating in the testimony included:
Auto International Association (AIA),
Automotive Parts and Accessories Association (APAA),
Automotive Parts Rebuilders Association (APRA),
Automotive Service Industry Association (ASIA),
Automotive Warehouse Distributors Association (AWDA),
Motor Equipment Manufacturers Association (MEMA), and
Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA).
ASIA is a Chicago-area based, not-for-profit trade association serving the
needs of its member companies representing the full spectrum of the motor
vehicle aftermarket.ASIA's mission is to provide industry leadership, be
a respected industry voice, and enhance the ability of member companies
to effectively serve their marketplace.
____________________________________________________________________________
This is from SEMA:
On-Board Diagnostics
On-board diagnostic systems, referred to as "OBD" and "OBD-II" are
sophisticated computer-controlled monitoring systems in new cars and
light-duty trucks. They are designed to monitor the vehicle's compliance
with emissions standards.
Which cars are affected?
Vehicle manufacturers are required to phase in OBD-II systems on 1994
and 1995 model-year vehicles, with full compliance on 1996 and later
model-year vehicles.
What does it mean to me, an owner?
It means you can't do much of anything to your car; you might not be
able to even change spark plugs, as an example. OBD systems are being
designed to include an electronic lock on the vehicle electronic control
module (that's another way of saying computer!). There are other
"write-protect" features, meaning the computer contents can't be changed.
What's the downside?
You're stuck. Need a repair? Take your new car (or light truck) back to
the dealer. You can't fix it yourself, and an independent garage can't
make any adjustments, repairs or modifications as the system is now
designed. The new-car dealer has to "plug in" your vehicle, and electronic
equipment will "read" the vehicle computer. Uh. Sorry. It'll read the
"electronic control module."
And now, the truth about all this!
Hobbyists are devastated now that they understand that no changes or
modifications can be made without causing a malfunction indicator
light to come on. (Be the first to know that the warning light is
called a "MIL" for "malfunction indicator light." You can be "one up"
on your fellow car-club members at the next meeting.) The Clean Air Act
preserves your rights to make a choice about where you have your car
serviced or repaired. It is in the interest of the public's freedom that
the Clean Air Act makes that provision. You're supposed to have the right
to choose between the new-car dealer and an independent repair garage
for service.
This all sounds dangerous. Is it?
It's government regulation unlike anything we've ever heard about or
seen in motor vehicles in the past. OBD-II appears to give new-car
dealers a monopoly. OBD-II may eliminate your ability to install
performance products, certain wheels and tires, suspension components
and ground-effects kits due to additional engine loading, vibration or
aerodynamic effects. The items listed here could cause the MIL to
illuminate. And here's the scariest part: Antitampering requirements,
as a part of the OBD-II regulations, may make legitimate computer
reprogramming impossible.
The bottom line, please!
The vehicle owner loses the freedom to purchase replacement parts where
he or she chooses - parts will have to come from the new-car dealer, and
the prices could be much higher than the corner parts store, as everyone
knows. Further, forget add-on performance gear and related modifications.
As the OBD-II regs now stand, you won't be able to do much of anything to
improve performance. Even an updated "look" to "your ride" may be in
question, since upgraded tires and wheels might illuminate the MIL, as
could ground-effects pieces and other add-ons.
- ----------------------------------------
AutoInc.
Have You Heard About OBD III?
With the recent approval of regulations governing on-board diagnostics
(OBD) information availability, the Automotive Service Association
(ASA) has been pleased with the cooperation of the U.S. Environmental
Protection Agency (EPA) in the development of information transfer to
repairers. ASA was a strong advocate of independent service shop owners
and technicians having access to the same information accessible to new
car dealers. The EPA protected these rights in its draft information
availability rule and in the final rule published last summer.
One area of concern has been the recent discussion surrounding a waiver
of federal preemption to permit California to implement its own OBD
regulations. The serious question for independent repairers has been
whether our rights will be protected as strongly as in the federal
regulations. This is an issue ASA is discussing with regulators and
other members of the aftermarket. ASA will make a decision in the
near future as to a California strategy on the waiver.
As the OBD II (federal OBD uses the same basic technical standards as
California OBD II) debate comes to a close, speculation is already
mounting about an OBD III concept in California. OBD III is being
discussed as a program to minimize the delay between the detection
of an emissions malfunction by the OBD II system and the actual
repair of the vehicle. This includes a reading of stored OBD II
information from in-use vehicles and the direction to owners of vehicles
with fault codes to make immediate repairs. In this concept, faults are
picked up by a monitoring technology and reported to a regulator, and
the vehicle owner is then directed to get further testing and possible
repairs. The debate over controlling vehicle emissions may soon move from
what type of testing facilities and test methods are most effective to
the complete on-board cycle of fault detection, notification and follow-up
testing and repair being discussed in the OBD-III concept.
What types of technology can be used to detect and relay data pertaining to
emissions malfunctions?
Options include roadside readers, local station networks or satellites. The
roadside reader has been tested by the California Air Resources Board
(CARB) since 1994. It is capable of reading eight lanes of bumper-to-bumper
traffic at 100 miles per hour. It can be used from a fixed location with
portable units or a mobile unit. If a fault is detected by a reader unit, it
has the capability of sending the vehicle identification number (VIN) plus
the fault codes to the regulator. (The term regulator is used broadly here
patrol officers, private contractors or others could be involved, depending
on how a program is structured.) The local station network has not been
tested by CARB, but would allow a location and monitoring service.
The satellite system can be used with a cellular phone hookup or location
monitoring technology. The vehicle would receive an alert via a cellular
phone or the monitoring technology. The location, date, time, VIN and OBD
II data would be returned to a satellite beacon.
Several issues surround the OBD III concept. From a regulatory perspective,
all of the technologies used, other than roadside technology, require a
Federal Communications Commission (FCC) license. The possibility of
interference with other signals in the same band is of concern. The issues
of commercial operators, law enforcement, jurisdiction among state agencies,
Intelligent Vehicle Highway Systems, etc., have to be addressed before
OBD III is a reality.
How would an OBD-III program prompt further testing and possible repair?
An OBD-III program could be incorporated into the current inspection and
maintenance (I/M) program. OBD III might also be used to generate an
"out-of-cycle" inspection. Once a fault is detected, a notice could be
mailed to the vehicle owner requiring an out-of-cycle inspection within a
certain number of days or at the next registration or resale, or a citation
would be issued. Penalties might include court appearances or fines related
to vehicle registration.
A roadside pullover might work this way: the monitoring technology detects a
fault, a law enforcement officer stops the vehicle with the fault code, and
a technician working with the officer at the scene verifies that a code is
set. A citation is then issued requiring testing at a test center, with a
time limit for the vehicle owner to do this before a penalty is incurred.
What legal issues arise under OBD III? There seems to be some question as
to the "suspicionless mass surveillance" of private property. There is no
opportunity to confront or rebut the results; no notice that the vehicle
will be tested. Fourth Amendment search and seizure issues tend to arise.
There are obviously technologies and enforcement procedures available to
support the OBD III concept. Do the public health arguments as to
controlling the severity of air pollution override the constitutional
privacy questions involved? What about consent? These are questions that
will undoubtedly arise, and could bring a court challenge.
After several court battles with OBD II, the issues are still unsettled
as to the California waiver. I/M programs are still to be finalized in
several states and the threat of congressional action looms. The
concept of bringing all the issues under one program will certainly be
controversial, but is being discussed as far as a long-term policy.
Independent repairers need to prepare for the next waive of emissions
and information issues as they continue to participate in the current
debate involving the same.
ASA is working with regulators and other members of the aftermarket to
ensure that the independent repairers interests are included as long-term
policies are developed.
- ----Bob Redding is ASA Washington representative. He holds a law degree
from the George Washington University School of Law.
- ----------------
Don't look so good do it!
Steve C.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:21:42 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: obd-ii
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>Look what I found when I searched for OBD-II on YAHOO
I read something similar last night in the new issue of Car and Driver.
On page 44 there is an article concerning SEMA (Specialty Equipment
Market Association) about this same thing. It seems SEMA has a lawsuit
pending against the EPA. "The lawsuit seeks to force the EPA to police
a provision of the Clean Air Act that directs auto manufacturers to
provide diagnostic computer codes from their OBD II anti-pollution
systems to the aftermarket. With out these codes it's difficult for
converters to modify vehicles and still have them conform to OBD II
parameters." -Car and Driver/Feb 1997
Scott
- -- Yea! I finally have my membership number!
Scott A. Wilson/TCLA #5261 __o __o __o __o
Santa Clara, CA _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_
swilson@pacbell.net (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_)
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:23:17 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Smog, OBD-II, Speedometers, and Common Sense
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Our story thus far:
On Friday, January 10, I wrote:
"...If your truck is a '96 or '97 USA model, it has the OBD-2
computer, which prevents you from changing tire size (except within about
5%), or axle ratio, except with whatever the vehicle came with stock. It
prevents you by not running after you change the part - and registering the
change as smog equipment tampering when you have your truck smogged. The
lesson? Choose your original equipment carefully - it's what you're stuck
with for the long haul."
To which Steve Capuano replied:
"Nick, Please tell me more about this heresy. How does it know
about tire size, and why would that be smog tampering. I understand vaguely
that if you increase tire size say from 31 to 33 or so and you change axle
ratio from say 4.10 to 5.29 you retain stock performance. If my statement
is valid then how does the computer know??"
Steve's question is very valid, although his example is incorrect.
An increase from a 31" diameter tire to a 33" diameter tire (true diameter)
is an increase of 6.45% in diameter, while a ring and pinion change from
4.10 to 5.29 lowers the gear by 29.02%. A ring and pinion change to 4.36
would lower the gear more correctly, by 6.34%. But again, it was simply an
off-the-cuff example.
On Saturday, January 11, I added to my original statement:
"Regarding the OBD-II computer: I have heard from friends that work
for CARB (California Air Resource Board) and for Toyota at NUMMI (all
Tacoma production), that the OBD-II will react to tampering of factory
settings by shutting down, and storing and reporting the tampering. This
includes engine rpm to vehicle speed settings. I suppose any change in tire
size would mandate a ring-and-pinion change to VERY closely approximate
stock settings, although that's an expensive proposition to simply
suppose."
I believe this last part addresses Steve's original statement fairly closely.
Also, on Saturday, January 11, Kemasa decided to try
to flame me by writing:
"How does the vehicle know the speed? Is there a separate wheel to
determine the speed? No. Is there a sensor which detects the ground speed?
No. The answer? It doesn't really. It know what it thinks is the speed is
based on the output of the transmission. It knows nothing of the tire size
or the front and rear diff. gears. If what was said was true then if you
got in a slippery condition you would be flagged for smog tampering.
"It sounds to me that someone is trying to scare people or they
don't have a clue of how things work."
I'm assuming that last comment, about "...trying to scare people," and not
having "...a clue of how things work" applies to me.
My friend Kemasa, while asking valid questions, also decides to answer
them. I'd like to answer Kemasa's questions and reply to his statements:
Q: "How does the vehicle know the speed?"
A: Most vehicles are equipped with a device called a speedometer. It
measures the speed of the vehicle relative to ground speed, which remains
static (other than landslides,earthquakes, and the Earth's rotation and
movement through the Universe).
Q: "Is there a separate wheel to determine the speed?"
A: Yes, and no. Yes, in that there is an electronic sensor that determines
wheel speed. It feeds this information into an electronic speedometer,
which tells the driver, the vehicle, and the OBD-II computer the vehicle
speed (which it bases upon a preprogrammed wheel diameter). No, in that it
is, a) not usually a wheel; and b) that it typically uses an existing wheel
assembly, usually the front left.
Q: "Is there a sensor which detects the ground speed?"
A: We've determined previously that the ground doesn't speed, that for our
purposes, it must remain static and the vehicle moves upon the ground. As
far as ground/vehicle speed differentiation, there is a device called
Ground Radar that police forces use to determine a police car's speed and
therefore determine a pursued vehicle's relative speed .
"It know (sic) what it thinks is the speed is based on the output of the
transmission."
Whether or not the vehicle in question uses a wheel-sensor or transmission
output-shaft sensor, tire diameter is always an issue.
"It knows nothing of the tire size or the front and rear diff. gears."
Also wrong. This information is mapped into the computer at the factory,
along with engine size and configuration, transmission type and ratios,
etc. The computer needs all this information to determine if the engine is
running correctly for a given speed, load, etc., and by extension, to
determine if anything needs adjusting to optimize emissions.
"If what was said was true then if you got in a slippery condition you
would be flagged for smog tampering."
The OBD-II computer has a "fuzzy logic" feature that takes into account
things like differential action, clutch use and slippage, slippery traction
conditions, etc. Certain tolerances have been built in to the system. What
the computer will not accept inputs like 30 minutes of steady, top-gear
driving at 45 mph and 5000 engine rpm. It will set off the Malfunction
Inspection Light and record this data, feeding it back to a technician when
repairs or tests are administered.
Listen, the OBD-II Emissions System is very serious stuff. Read what SEMA
(Specialty Equipment Market Association - the association to which
virtually reputable auto aftermarket manufacturer belongs), says about
OBD-II:
"On-board diagnostic systems, referred to as "OBD" and "OBD-II" are
sophisticated computer-controlled monitoring systems in new cars and
light-duty trucks. They are designed to monitor the vehicle's compliance
with emissions standards.
"Which cars are affected?
"Vehicle manufacturers are required to phase in OBD-II systems on
1994 and 1995 model-year vehicles, with full compliance on 1996 and later
model-year vehicles.
"What does it mean to me, an owner?
"It means you can't do much of anything to your car; you might not
be able to even change spark plugs, as an example. OBD systems are being
designed to include an electronic lock on the vehicle electronic control
module (that's another way of saying computer!). There are other
"write-protect" features, meaning the computer contents can't be changed.
"What's the downside?
"You're stuck. Need a repair? Take your new car (or light truck)
back to the dealer. You can't fix it yourself, and an independent garage
can't make any adjustments, repairs or modifications as the system is now
designed. The new-car dealer has to "plug in" your vehicle, and electronic
equipment will "read" the vehicle computer. Uh. Sorry. It'll read the
"electronic control module."
"And now, the truth about all this!
"Hobbyists are devastated now that they understand that no changes
or modifications can be made without causing a malfunction indicator light
to come on. (Be the first to know that the warning light is called a "MIL"
for "malfunction indicator light." You can be "one up" on your fellow
car-club members at the next meeting.) The Clean Air Act preserves your
rights to make a choice about where you have your car serviced or repaired.
It is in the interest of the public's freedom that the Clean Air Act makes
that provision. You're supposed to have the right to choose between the
new-car dealer and an independent repair garage for service.
"This all sounds dangerous. Is it?
"It's government regulation unlike anything we've ever heard about
or seen in motor vehicles in the past. OBD-II appears to give new-car
dealers a monopoly. OBD-II may eliminate your ability to install
performance products, certain wheels and tires, suspension components and
ground-effects kits due to additional engine loading, vibration or
aerodynamic effects. The items listed here could cause the MIL to
illuminate. And here's the scariest part: Anti tampering requirements, as a
part of the OBD-II regulations, may make legitimate computer reprogramming
impossible.
"The bottom line, please!
"The vehicle owner loses the freedom to purchase replacement parts
where he or she chooses - parts will have to come from the new-car dealer,
and the prices could be much higher than the corner parts store, as
everyone knows. Further, forget add-on performance gear and related
modifications. As the OBD-II regs now stand, you won't be able to do much
of anything to improve performance. Even an updated "look" to "your ride"
may be in question, since upgraded tires and wheels might illuminate the
MIL, as could ground-effects pieces and other add-ons."
(From SEMA's web site @ http://www.sema.org)
This is serious stuff, serious enough that SEMA is suing the EPA. This
action seeks to force the EPA to police a provision of the Clean Air Act
that directs auto manufacturers to provide diagnostic computer codes from
their OBD-II anti-pollution systems to the aftermarket. Without these
codes, it's difficult or impossible for converters to modify vehicles and
still have them conform to OBD-II parameters.
Don't believe me? Call aftermarket performance-chip maker Dinan Performance
at 415.962.9401 and ask them why they don't have any chips available for
1996 or 1997 model cars. Call Downey Off-Road Manufacturing at 310.949.9494
and ask them about putting 33" tires on a Tacoma.
The reason for this is that automotive emissions laws are very strict
nowadays. How strict? Let's take a 1966 model versus a 1993 model passenger
car (less than 6000 lbs. GVWR). Let's examine idle hydrocarbons at 1100
rpm. The 1966 car (first year of emissions laws) can emit more than TWELVE
times the emissions than the 1993 car, on average. Now let's assume that
the 1993 car is running average, but the 1966 car is at the upper legal
limit for idle hydrocarbons. The 1966 car now emits more than FORTY-ONE
times the idle HC than does the '93 (Source: California Dept. of Consumer
Affairs, Bureau of Automotive Repair).
So strict that Mazda chose to pull the RX-7 from the US market for the 1996
model year because its limited production, and therefore sales, could not
justify the huge amount of money required to reconfigure the car to pass
the new emissions requirements.
So strict, that last year SAAB ran a demonstration that fed the exhaust
from a 1974 SAAB Sonnet into the intake of a 1996 SAAB 9000. There were so
many unburned gases passed through the exhaust of the Sonnet, that the 9000
ran just fine.
So, what have we learned?
1) That the new emissions laws in effect throughout the United States (not
just California) are extremely strict;
2) That the OBD-II anti-pollution systems can and will make vehicle
modification difficult, or impossible (enough so to force a lawsuit);
3) That my friend Kemasa might have been referring to himself when he wrote
"It sounds to me that someone...(doesn't) have a clue of how things work."
Sorry to sound so mean-spirited on the list. I always try to give and get
advice and tips in the friendliest, most genial manner possible. If you ask
around, you'll find that I try give advice (and spare parts) away as freely
as my time allows.
What I don't appreciate is someone who decides to pose their own rhetorical
questions, answer them smugly, tersely and without explanation, certain
that they're absolutely correct. That's like someone asking, "What's the
best tire size?" and someone else answering, "31 inches," without asking
what the application is or explaining their answer.
We are all here to discuss and exchange ideas, not to tear into each other.
All the people I've met through the list and TLCA are awesome. I've had
lengthy discussions about all things automotive, gotten and passed along
good advice and taken the bad with a bucket of salt.
All I know about OBD-II is what I've read, and what others have explained
to me Now, what I have read are the laws themselves and other people's
interpretations of those laws. People I've heard from are Ph.D.'s in
Chemistry that work for CARB: project managers at NUMMI, marketing people
from SEMA, aftermarket manufacturers all over the country (but primarily in
California). I've related what I have learned. If you know better, let me
and the rest of us know. But let us know why, where, and how you know. If
what you know contradicts what I say, then let me know about it, but let me
know your sources of information.
Of course, I invite comment.
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:14:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bruce Burden"
Subject: Smog, OBD-II, Speedometers, and Common Sense
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>
> Q: "How does the vehicle know the speed?"
> A: Most vehicles are equipped with a device called a speedometer. It
> measures the speed of the vehicle relative to ground speed, which remains
> static (other than landslides,earthquakes, and the Earth's rotation and
> movement through the Universe).
>
With an electronically controlled automatic transmission,
it is a fairly simple exercise to for the ECU to know the gear
that the vehicle is in, the engine RPM and compare the expected
speeds.
HOWEVER, what Kamsa(?) was saying is that without an independent
reference point, the ECU has no idea what the ACTUAL speed of the
vehicle is. This is no different from the "old days" when changing
the wheel/tire size in a vehicle without the appropriate change of
the speedo drive unit would result in your speedometer reading high/low.
Now, if you increase the tire size, and lower the R&P gear
ratio by the corresponding amount, the OBD-II system should be
clueless as to what happened because it doesn't have an independent
point of reference to measure vehicle speed, and you have preserved
the RPM/vehicle speed relationship. And, as a bonus, your speedo
and odometer will be nearly correct as well.
Now, if you only do one of the above, and you don't know the
codes, then you will not have a accurate speedo/odometer, assuming
it is an electronic unit and not a simple cable drive as in the
"old days". It could also effect the emissions system, since the
computer uses the throttle position sensor, vehcicle speed, RPM,
etc. etc. to determine ignition advance and such like.
Perhaps you should exercise more restraint?
>
> 1996 or 1997 model cars. Call Downey Off-Road Manufacturing at 310.949.9494
> and ask them about putting 33" tires on a Tacoma.
>
I did. The response I got was that there were no reverse
cut gears for the front diff available until later this year.
That is why they haven't released their 3" lift for the Taco
yet. Seems reasonable to me, and not OBD-II related at all.
The reason for forcing the EPA to police the codes requirement
is to keep the vehicle manufactures from freezing the independent
repair and replacement parts manufactures out of the new vehicle
game. If you can't read the codes, how do you know what is
wrong? And if you don't know what the I/O is, how can you offer
replacement parts?
Bruce
- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Burden bruceb@isd.tandem.com Tandem Computers Inc.
512-432-8944 Network Verification 14231 Tandem Blvd.
Auto answer(4 rings) Austin, TX 78726
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 09:45:40 PST
From: barney@flowpoint.com (Barney McNamara)
Subject: Smog, OBD-II, Speedometers, and Common Sense
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
To all,
Thanks Nick and Steve C. for investigating this new OBDII smog control
system. I can vouch for Nick's generous sharing of advice and parts. I
guess I'll stop drooling over those new Tacos - they look great, but the
lack of after market upgrades makes them much less desireable. The one
bright side of all this is that those of us with older trucks should see
an increase in value over the years, as new trucks will not be as off-road
capable as the old ones can be made to be.
____________________________________________________________________
Barney McNamara 83 Toyota Short Bed
( barney@flowpoint.com ) stock 22R motor ; 3" body lift
Santa Cruz, Ca. 8" alloy rims; 31" BFG A/Ts
____________________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:10:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Kemasa
Subject: Smog, OBD-II, Speedometers, and Common Sense
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org, nickkrest@batnet.com
>From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
>...
>Also, on Saturday, January 11, Kemasa decided to try
>to flame me by writing:
No, to point out that you are missing something quite critical.
>...
>I'm assuming that last comment, about "...trying to scare people," and not
>having "...a clue of how things work" applies to me.
The first part applies to all who are trying to scare people in order
to not make changes. The second part does apply to you as the stuff
below proves, I am sorry to say.
>...
>Q: "How does the vehicle know the speed?"
>A: Most vehicles are equipped with a device called a speedometer. It
>measures the speed of the vehicle relative to ground speed, which remains
>static (other than landslides,earthquakes, and the Earth's rotation and
>movement through the Universe).
Sorry, but you are wrong. It measure the output, typically, or the
tranmission. It has been calculated to give a good guess of the
speed of the vehicle. Is there some sort of adjustment as the
tires wear? Nope. If you put the vehicle up on blocks
what speed will it read? Some vehicles, such as at least one
model of the Corvair, measured it from a non-driven wheel,
or so I was told. Also when I had my speedometer tested
the vehicle was not moving relative to the ground, can you
explain that?
>Q: "Is there a separate wheel to determine the speed?"
>A: Yes, and no. Yes, in that there is an electronic sensor that determines
>wheel speed. It feeds this information into an electronic speedometer,
>which tells the driver, the vehicle, and the OBD-II computer the vehicle
>speed (which it bases upon a preprogrammed wheel diameter). No, in that it
>is, a) not usually a wheel; and b) that it typically uses an existing wheel
>assembly, usually the front left.
Which cars made today use the front left wheel? Also if ALL the the tires
are changed then what happens? If I put really large wheels on the car
how does it know this?
"Based on a preprogrammed wheel diameter"? How does it know if this is
changed?
>Q: "Is there a sensor which detects the ground speed?"
>A: We've determined previously that the ground doesn't speed, that for our
>purposes, it must remain static and the vehicle moves upon the ground. As
>far as ground/vehicle speed differentiation, there is a device called
>Ground Radar that police forces use to determine a police car's speed and
>therefore determine a pursued vehicle's relative speed .
Police radar, laser, etc. are all outside measuring devices. You can also
measure off the distance and time it, yet none of these things relate
the information back the the car's computer.
>...
>"It knows nothing of the tire size or the front and rear diff. gears."
>Also wrong. This information is mapped into the computer at the factory,
>along with engine size and configuration, transmission type and ratios,
>etc. The computer needs all this information to determine if the engine is
>running correctly for a given speed, load, etc., and by extension, to
>determine if anything needs adjusting to optimize emissions.
Ok, so tell me just how the computer knows that the tires are now
a different size? Also why does it have to be loaded in at the
factory, it should be able to figure it out. It is coded into it,
but if it changes it does not know.
AAA tests cars all the time to check the speedometer. The non-driven
wheels are not moving and are stationary (on the ground). This implies
that there are very few cars today that don't use the tranmission.
There are some cars which use sensors in each wheel and can tell
if a tire is going flat, but this is rare and I doubt that even
that system can determine a tire change.
>...
Kemasa.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:38:58 -0600
From: Steve Capuano
Subject: mods and obd-ii----Looks like the end of the world has not
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>Return-Path:
>Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:46:48 -0500 (EST)
>From: BGarner795@aol.com
>To: capuano@hypercon.com
>Subject: Re: mods and obd-ii
>
>In a message dated 97-01-12 17:52:20 EST, you write:
>
><<
> Mr. Garner, I would like to thank you for taking the time to read my
> message and hope you will be able to shed some light on this subject for
> me.
>
> I have a 96 Tacoma 4X4 V6 XTRA Cab and want to lift it and add larger
> tires as well as possibly add a "power" chip. My question is does my
> Texas Toy have the California OBD-II anti-tampering smog 'program' so as
> I cannot modify my truck? If so can this be legally bypassed or
> 're-certified' so I may drive a modified truck. I am very concerned
> that I have purchased a forever stock truck.
>
> Once again thank you.
> Steve C.
> >>
>
>
>To my knowldge it does not have this chip (C.A.R.B. OBDII). But remember
>there is always new technology that can override most systems. If there is a
>new chip, try it.
>
>Brian Garner
>
>
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 14 Jan 1997 08:42:02 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Smog, OBD-II, Speedometers,
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:36 AM
OFFICE MEMO Smog, OBD-II, Speedometers, andM-I Date: 1/14/97
barney@flowpoint.com (Barney McNamara) wrote:
>To all,
>Thanks Nick and Steve C. for investigating this new OBDII smog control
>system. I can vouch for Nick's generous sharing of advice and parts. I
>guess I'll stop drooling over those new Tacos - they look great, but the
>lack of after market upgrades makes them much less desireable. The one
>bright side of all this is that those of us with older trucks should see
>an increase in value over the years, as new trucks will not be as off-road
>capable as the old ones can be made to be.
Actually you can already see this happening with the live axle vs. IFS
trucks. In many cases an '84/'85 truck will sell for more money than
will an '86 (or close) truck.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 09:50:19 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Subject: Smog, OBD-II, Speedometers, and Common Sense
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>> Q: "How does the vehicle know the speed?"
>> A: Most vehicles are equipped with a device called a speedometer. It
>>
> With an electronically controlled automatic transmission,
> it is a fairly simple exercise to for the ECU to know the gear
> that the vehicle is in, the engine RPM and compare the expected
> speeds.
>
> HOWEVER, what Kamsa(?) was saying is that without an independent
> reference point, the ECU has no idea what the ACTUAL speed of the
> vehicle is. This is no different from the "old days" when changing
> the wheel/tire size in a vehicle without the appropriate change of
> the speedo drive unit would result in your speedometer reading high/low.
>
> Now, if you increase the tire size, and lower the R&P gear
> ratio by the corresponding amount, the OBD-II system should be
> clueless as to what happened because it doesn't have an independent
> point of reference to measure vehicle speed, and you have preserved
> the RPM/vehicle speed relationship. And, as a bonus, your speedo
> and odometer will be nearly correct as well.
Ok, let me add my $.02 worth... Most of these trucks are coming with ABS of some
sort right? Well, there is a sensor in the axle that senses AXLE SHAFT speed,
and there's a sensor in the trans that senses transmission output speed. (where
your speedometer is usually connected). While the truck shouldn't be able to
tell if you put 31" tires in place of your 30" tires, it can tell if you
re-gear, since the AXLE speed will be different in relation to the trans
(driveshaft) speed. This is the type of thing that the supporters of OBD2 say
requires a re-calibration of the computer. While this may not be the case right
now, see how simple it can be to check if you've re-geared. One day we might
have to buy a $500 aftermarket computer just to swap r&p's! and lifting a truck
will become a re-engineering expirament
- - Brian
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:36:31 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bruce Burden"
Subject: Smog, OBD-II, Speedometers, and Common Sense
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>
> Ok, let me add my $.02 worth... Most of these trucks are coming with ABS of some
> sort right? Well, there is a sensor in the axle that senses AXLE SHAFT speed,
>
After my previous reply, I thought about ABS sensors.
Yes, you are quite correct that this is a possible "check
point" for the ECU/OBD-II.
However, the solution is simple: don't buy ABS :-)
Given some of the comments on this list, rec.autos.4x4,
etc., I am glad that I don't have ABS on my Taco.
Bruce
- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Burden bruceb@isd.tandem.com Tandem Computers Inc.
512-432-8944 Network Verification 14231 Tandem Blvd.
Auto answer(4 rings) Austin, TX 78726
------------------------------
Date: 14 Jan 97 11:12:09 PST
From: Norman.Goetz@directory.Reed.EDU (Norman Goetz)
Subject: Smog, OBD-II, Speedometers, and Common Sense
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I'm going to jump into this, though I don't know anything more than what's been
posted here.
A lot of arguments about how the computer could detect a tire change, or detect
engine/wheel/transmission speed vs. ground speed. I don't see how it could,
and don't think it matters anyway.
It seems to me that what could happen is that if you increase tire size without
a differential ratio change, the computer may register and record a high
emission level, especially during acceleration or hill climbing in top gear on
the highway, which is outside the limits it expects, due to engine lugging. If
RPM are too low the engine is below the torque peak, and may dump extra fuel
that doesn't burn. _IF_ the testing center then takes the time to access the
computer when you're there, it might detect that warning. I would have a hard
time imagining them taking time to do a computer hookup in the assembly-line
setup here. In Oregon the test is done with the vehicle stationary at high
idle, not on a dynamometer with wheels turning. No way tire size is going to
influence emissions then. And even if they take the time to access the
computer on late model vehicles, the warning point is going to vary a lot and
depend on a lot of factors. What still bothers me though is it seems you can't
tell in advance if a proposed change will trigger a warning.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:29:54 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Smog, OBD-II, Speedometers, and Common Sense
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I just had a thought about these "error codes" the OBD II computer will
be storing whenever it thinks something is wrong. If your really
worried about the smog test people reading the codes, erase them. I
don't know if it will work on this OBD II computer, but every car I've
ever had that has used a similar computer will loose the codes if it
looses power. So....disconnect the battery right before you hand the
car over to the mechanics. Why not, there is nothing illegal about it.
Also, I'd would seriously be surprised if any shop you take it to, to
have it smogged, would actually check the codes. I had a Mazda B2200
two years ago. When it didn't pass smog they did not check the codes.
It was up to me to check the codes and fix the problem. (of course they
would have been happy to for a whole lot of $$$)
Anyway, I checked the error codes myself. It told me EGR valve. I took
it off, cleaned the TONS of carbon build up out of it, put it back on,
and it passed smog. No big deal.
Scott
TLCA #5261
------------------------------
Date: 14 Jan 97 12:36:06 PST
From: Norman.Goetz@directory.Reed.EDU (Norman Goetz)
Subject: Smog, OBD-II, Speedometers, and Common Sense
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
- --- You wrote:
I just had a thought about these "error codes" the OBD II computer will
be storing whenever it thinks something is wrong. If your really
worried about the smog test people reading the codes, erase them. I
don't know if it will work on this OBD II computer, but every car I've
ever had that has used a similar computer will loose the codes if it
looses power. So....disconnect the battery right before you hand the
car over to the mechanics. Why not, there is nothing illegal about it.
- --- end of quoted material ---
Interesting thought. Or, do a battery interrupt about a week before taking it
to DEQ and give it time to reaquire some operating parameters for keeping
emissions low.
This might not work if the computer has its own NiCad which is recharged by the
main battery and holds memory through battery "swaps".
-----------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:21:01 -0700
From: Jim Brink
Subject: Re: OBD-2
Norman Goetz wrote:
>
> --- Scott Muir wrote:
> Anyone wanna comment on their
> experiences with this???
> --- end of quote ---
>
> I have a '97 Tacoma which came with 31" tires. I have switched to 32" without
> the truck stopping dead, but I also haven't checked the odometer on the
> measured 5-mile check points or queried the computer codes to see if it's
> unhappy. I've been driving 4% slower on the speedo ...
You can't interrogate an OBD-II equipped vehicle without a special
serial scan tool. From what I have seen, tire and wheel swaps are not
affected by OBD-II, and the same goes for aftermarket engine equipment
including headers and exhaust.
- --
Jim Brink, Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 1986 Toyota Std. Bed 4WD
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 19:14:17 -0700
From: Nick.Krest@nickkrest.batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Re: OBD-2
Scott Muir wrote:
"I don't recall this being resolved, but
I take it since all has been quiet on it
for about a year, that this isn't an
issue."
In California, several cool (for us regular folk) things have happened in
the last 15 months to cripple the onerous threat of OBD-2:
- The citizens (and therefore, their elected officials) got p.o.'d
at CARB's attempt to exert complete control over their vehicles and their
lives. This effectively cancelled the "treadmill" smog test, where the
vehicle would be running with its drive wheels on rollers. Big tires could
have potentially honked this up big-time. The test is still a tailpipe-only
thing. In addition, a 25-year rule was put proposed (not sure if it is yet
effective), where vehicles more than 25 years old were exempted from the
smog laws. The Gross Polluter thing has sort of died as well. In
California, which has no public-transit systems to speak of, if you take
away a person's vehicle, you take away their livelihood. And NO ONE that
holds public office wants to open that can of worms.
- The logistics of the thing kind of crushed all the Big
Brother-style testing CARB was proposing. Proposed state-run-only smog test
stations, died a quick death, when the realization that running 15,000,000
cars a year thru a 60-90 minute procedure added up almost exponentially
(within a week of beginning this program, the state-run Referee Stations
had a three-month backlog). I checked with CARB in the 818, and they said
it would be illegal to tamper with any system that would affect the
emissions. But they also admitted that since their plan has sort of
crumbled under public and legislative pressure, there is no way they could
implement any sort of procedure to check for error codes.
I have yet to meet someone who has bought a Tacoma and run 35" or larger
tires with stock gearing. This is the sort of thing that would have, in
theory, brought on the error codes. It was never a question of the math,
more a question of the load vs. speed issue. Would a severely slipping
clutch have brought the same panic on? I don't know, and would prefer not
to.
In California, as before, you still go to a local gas station and get
hooked up to pretty much the same test machines. The only difference is now
the test results are transmitted electronically to the DMV. All of the
shops do "pre-testing", which means they run the machine without turning on
the modem.
So I guess it's all a moot point at this period in time; a stalemate
between myself and Ken Sandberg. I, for one, am glad that we DIDN'T find
out whether or not I was correct on all this. I would prefer to be
incorrect.
I guess it just goes to show that the power of public opinion CAN have an
effect on government.
- Nick
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 22:38:24 -0700
From: Jim Brink
Subject: Re: OBD-2
Scott Muir wrote:
>
> Jim Brink wrote:
> >You can't interrogate an OBD-II equipped vehicle without a special
> >serial scan tool. From what I have seen, tire and wheel swaps are not
> >affected by OBD-II, and the same goes for aftermarket engine equipment
> >including headers and exhaust.
>
> The big threat that I guess never realized was the computer would shut the truck
> down for whatever reason. Have you ever seen this? and if so, under what
> conditions?
I've only seen this in the event of a sensor or component failure. The
OBD system will effectively go into a "limp home" mode, so as to prevent
damage to the engine, usually from detonation. This function isn't
specific to OBD-II however, just incorporated into the vehicle's
programming strategy.
California is indeed going to go to a loaded-mode (chassis dynamometer)
emission test. It just merely is postponed until the first of June. This
testing is required in the enhanced areas like L.A., Orange, and a
handful of Counties in the Northern part of the State. These will be run
by independent shops though. There are "test only" stations around as
well but these too are independently operated. There will be only a few
centralized emission test facilities. These will test a pre-selected
group (I think it is 15% of the representative "fleet" of vehicles on
the road) of cars and light trucks through an appointment process. This
is more or less a control procedure to test the new system.
In the event of a vehicle having large tires on a loaded mode test, the
smog technician would probably refer the owner to a referee station for
testing. Large tires and dynos do not mix. Just ask one of my techs. who
found out the hard way last week :-)
- --
Jim Brink, Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 1986 Toyota Std. Bed 4WD
Manhattan Beach, CA 32x11.50/15 BFG M/Ts
ToyTech@Off-Road.com
************************************************************************
TLCA - Friends of the Mojave Road (FOMR) - CA4WDC
Visit http://www.off-road.com Putting Off-Road, Online!
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:44:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kemasa
Subject: Re: OBD-2
I asked a friend about this, who is in the car business and this
is he response:
Wishful thinking. The dynos are installed. They were to begin
May 1, but software problems pushed the program back again.
It'll probably begin within a couple of weeks.
This guy is dreaming. The minimum cost for the new smog dyno
and computer is $35,000. They are gonna go on line, believe
me.
He also said that all-wheel drive cars would have to go to the referee
station. I suspect that will add to the backlog.
In case no one has noticed, the results have been sent electronically
for quite some time. So that is nothing new nor anything that is
changing now.
GOOD shops do pre-testing, not all of them do that though. I know
people who had problems because a lack of pre-testing. Make sure
that when you bring your car in that they pre-test it!!! Don't
assume it!!!
>From: Nick.Krest@nickkrest.batnet.com (Nick Krest)
>Subject: Re: OBD-2
>...
>In California, several cool (for us regular folk) things have happened in
>the last 15 months to cripple the onerous threat of OBD-2:
>
> - The citizens (and therefore, their elected officials) got p.o.'d
>at CARB's attempt to exert complete control over their vehicles and their
>lives. This effectively cancelled the "treadmill" smog test, where the
>vehicle would be running with its drive wheels on rollers. Big tires could
>have potentially honked this up big-time. The test is still a tailpipe-only
>thing. In addition, a 25-year rule was put proposed (not sure if it is yet
>effective), where vehicles more than 25 years old were exempted from the
>smog laws. The Gross Polluter thing has sort of died as well. In
>California, which has no public-transit systems to speak of, if you take
>away a person's vehicle, you take away their livelihood. And NO ONE that
>holds public office wants to open that can of worms.
>...
>In California, as before, you still go to a local gas station and get
>hooked up to pretty much the same test machines. The only difference is now
>the test results are transmitted electronically to the DMV. All of the
>shops do "pre-testing", which means they run the machine without turning on
>the modem.
>
>So I guess it's all a moot point at this period in time; a stalemate
>between myself and Ken Sandberg. I, for one, am glad that we DIDN'T find
>out whether or not I was correct on all this. I would prefer to be
>incorrect.
>...
Stalemate? I stated before that the car can not tell that there are
larger tires since there is nothing which really determines the true
speed of the vehicle. The speedometer works from the transmission, not
the road. Yes, it is possible that the vehicle could detect *something*
from the speed and the load, but how does it know that it is because
of tires vs. going up a steep hill?
I was not aware of a stalemate, I just responded to the concept of a
magic computer which "knows" the true speed of the vehicle and can
tell if the tires have been changed without having an independent
means of determining the real speed.
Kemasa.
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 04 May 98 10:43:53 PDT
From: Norman.Goetz@directory.reed.edu (Norman Goetz)
Subject: Re: OBD-2
- --- You wrote:
- The citizens (and therefore, their elected officials) got p.o.'d
at CARB's attempt to exert complete control over their vehicles and their
lives. This effectively cancelled the "treadmill" smog test, where the
vehicle would be running with its drive wheels on rollers. Big tires could
have potentially honked this up big-time. The test is still a tailpipe-only
thing.
- --- snip ---
I checked with CARB in the 818, and they said
it would be illegal to tamper with any system that would affect the
emissions. But they also admitted that since their plan has sort of
crumbled under public and legislative pressure, there is no way they could
implement any sort of procedure to check for error codes.
- --- end of quote ---
Thanks for the long explanation. They are going to add some sort of treadmill
testing in the state-run Oregon DEQ test centers, but publicity about it sounds
like it will not take that much longer than the tailpipe tests.
But you point out that the potential problem with error codes was not that the
computer would turn off the ignition, but that the DEQ test centers would read
the error codes on every car and not pass ones showing emissions-related
errors, which might be due to over-stock size tires on 4X4s. The logistics of
checking error codes are operable here too, and I don't hear anything about
building new test centers to handle a longer procedure. Some Portland TV
station is running a story this week about the new testing, and advance
advertizing for the story hints that it is just an additional cost with no
benefit.
Norman
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 17:17:55 -0700
From: Jim Brink
Subject: Re: OBD2
Scott Muir wrote:
>
> Thanks Nick, Jim and others who responded. I guess my only other question is,
> what is the latest year of truck you can get where you can still talk to the
> computer without needing a freakin' mainframe? Or am I misinformed and the OBD2
> will talk to commoners?
Last year for Toyota trucks was 1995. Tacomas are all OBD-II. In order
to retrieve information from an OBD-II ECU, you will need a special scan
tool. One good thing about all of this (from a repair standpoint) is
that OBD-II systems are alike in operation (depending on vehicle) and
utilize common language so that one manufacturer's equipment will work
on the other's system.
>
> Also, are you california people the only ones that were 'blessed' with this?
Federal EPA and Clean Air Act rules state that all passenger cars
produced after 1996 be OBD-II equipped.
- --
Jim Brink, Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 1986 Toyota Std. Bed 4WD
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:16:39 -0700
From: Jim Brink
Subject: Re: OBD-2
Norman Goetz wrote:
>
> I checked with CARB in the 818, and they said
> it would be illegal to tamper with any system that would affect the
> emissions. But they also admitted that since their plan has sort of
> crumbled under public and legislative pressure, there is no way they could
> implement any sort of procedure to check for error codes.
You no doubt talked to someone from CARB at a VERY low level :-) No
upper-level managment-type would ever admit to this! Actually, the plan
to implement error code and on-board diagnostics is being discussed now.
This type of test would replace the exhaust-gas test on newer vehicles,
with the logic that the on-board system being as advanced as it is,
would detect and identify an emission defect.
>
> Thanks for the long explanation. They are going to add some sort of
> treadmill testing in the state-run Oregon DEQ test centers, but
> publicity about it sounds like it will not take that much longer
> than the tailpipe tests.
It doesn't. It is a very short test. In fact, if a particular vehicle
passes a certian portion of the test, the rest of the sequence is
cancelled. The dynamometer is very efficent in producing results.
>
> But you point out that the potential problem with error codes was not
> that the computer would turn off the ignition, but that the DEQ test
> centers would read the error codes on every car and not pass ones
> showing emissions-related errors, which might be due to over-stock
> size tires on 4X4s. The logistics of checking error codes are
> operable here too, and I don't hear anything about building new test
> centers to handle a longer procedure. Some Portland TV station is
> running a story this week about the new testing, and advance
> advertizing for the story hints that it is just an additional cost
> with no benefit.
The cost and time to check error codes is almost a moot issue. It takes
less time to scan an OBD system for error codes than it does to process
the paperwork for the entire inspection. As of now, OBD-II systems do
not monitor vehicle speed, be it wheel or axle speed. OBD-II systems
monitor emission-specific parameters such as: Misfire monitoring,
catalyst efficency, EVAP purge, EGR, etc.
- --
Jim Brink, Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 1986 Toyota Std. Bed 4WD
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:21:18 -0700
From: Jim Brink
Subject: Re: OBD-2
Kemasa wrote:
>
> I asked a friend about this, who is in the car business and this
> is he response:
>
> Wishful thinking. The dynos are installed. They were to begin
> May 1, but software problems pushed the program back again.
> It'll probably begin within a couple of weeks.
>
> This guy is dreaming. The minimum cost for the new smog dyno
> and computer is $35,000. They are gonna go on line, believe
> me.
>
> He also said that all-wheel drive cars would have to go to the referee
> station. I suspect that will add to the backlog.
The referee stations really have it together. I doubt there will be any
backlog.
>
> In case no one has noticed, the results have been sent electronically
> for quite some time. So that is nothing new nor anything that is
> changing now.
>
> GOOD shops do pre-testing, not all of them do that though. I know
> people who had problems because a lack of pre-testing. Make sure
> that when you bring your car in that they pre-test it!!! Don't
> assume it!!!
Shops also have to be aware on pre-conditioning (warm-up) procedures for
certian cars. Ever seen a car go through meltdown in a shop stall? Not
pretty :-).
- --
Jim Brink, Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 1986 Toyota Std. Bed 4WD
------------------------------
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