Oil Additives

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:46:44 -0500
From: El Manalo 
Subject: Dura Lube question....
To: toy4x4@Tlca.org

Has anyone out there tried this stuff and is it any good?????
Advantages/Disadvantages as well as noticeable improvements? I think
a lot of us may be wondering this, those infomercials are almost too good
to be true. Any one try any of the 'super' lubricants?
My friend and I are tempted to buy some and perform the same
'experiments' that they show to show-off this products' friction fighting
abilities. NOT IN MY CAR AND CERTAINLY NOT IN HIS, AT LEAST NOT
YET!!!    I WANT TO TRY SOME OF THE 'OUT-OF-ENGINE' experiments
that they show on TV and see if it's really true. I wonder if this may
cause sludge build up in the future? Anyone please feel free to comment.

Thanks all.
El.

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:47:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Dura Lube question....
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

In a message dated 97-05-14 16:10:29 EDT, you write:

> Has anyone out there tried this stuff and is it any good?????
>  Advantages/Disadvantages as well as noticeable improvements? 

I got some stuff called SFR - Superior Friction Reduction.  It is like 130
bucks a gallon(friend bought a half a gallon for me - I try almost anything
that is free).  The guy who gave the demonstration said that Dura Lube
actually got their stuff from SFR, something about scientists getting pissed
and splitting up.  Anyway, they make a lot of claims.  Nothing different in
my 22RE, but my sister's 94 Camaro (V6) and my friend's 93 Ford Ranger (V6)
started running a LOT cooler.  I dunno. make your own conclusions.  By the
way, that half gallon, if used in one car only, would last 3 years worth of
applications, so the price does not seem so bad.

David
DRM033@aol.com

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:21:04 -0400
From: Ed Ruf 
Subject: Snake Oil.... Yikes.Re: Dura Lube question....
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

On 02:46 PM 5/14/97 -0500, El Manalo wrote:
>Has anyone out there tried this stuff and is it any good?????
>Advantages/Disadvantages as well as noticeable improvements? I think
>a lot of us may be wondering this, those infomercials are almost too good
>to be true. Any one try any of the 'super' lubricants?

Since I started the dead horse issue this morning, then got caught up in a
fire drill at work ( I'm still working on the reply(s)), I'll take this.
let it stay on the parts store or info warehouse shelves. I won't start a
debate on the technical side, I'll someone else dig THAT horse up. If it
were this good why wouldn't the auto manufacturers use it or spec it to
reduce warranty claims. Seems wholesale the stuff might go for a buck or so
a bottle. Pretty cheap insurance IF it worked.  I'm not just talking about
major blow up repairs, but emissions certifications.

Ed

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:11:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht 
Subject: Dura Lube question....
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

About Durablube..
> Has anyone out there tried this stuff and is it any good?????
> Advantages/Disadvantages as well as noticeable improvements? I think

My friend put a bottle in his oil burning gas eating power lacking 22r,
and didn't notice a darn thing--and it's supposedly was a fresh rebuild
too.  So far (10,000-15,000 miles later) it hasn't improved much.

Here's what I've heard that scares me about some of these additives. 
They use PTFE (very tiny teflon flakes) and supposedly these can clog
oil passages... leading to oil starvation.  Something like that.  I
dunno, I read about it on the offroad list a year or two ago, but that
seemed to be what a few of the posters were getting at. 

So, in essense (my understanding) it does protect better than normal
oil, but it can also starve some parts of oil (or lead to it).  I know
there are some products out there now that don't use PTFE, and maybe
they are different/better.  I don't know.

One argument I've heard (and I thought it was a good one) is that motor
oil companies already put additives in the oil.  If there was some magic
'engine rebuild in a can' then they'd probably put that in there too.  I
mean, it seems like if it really did help, they would use it in the
motor oil.  Right?  So IMHO, if your truck doesn't burn/leak it, use
synthetic, if it does use a high quality dino motor oil, and change it often.
Some people argue that motor oil will last way, way longer then 3000
miles--especially synthetic.  But what about all the dirt and crud that
get's in your oil?  So some people say that as long as you change the
oil filter every 3 or 4000 miles, you can run the same oil in there..
But there's one other thing that a high quality oil, and regular filter
changing doesn't take care of:  That's all the microscopic 'stuff' that
get's in the oil, like gas and moisture.  

This is a bit crude, but my dad always said that changing the oil is
like taking a piss--it's a chance to dump all the toxins out of your
motor.  I think he's right.

__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:16:51 -0400
From: Ed Ruf 
Subject: Dura Lube question....
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

On 05:11 PM 5/14/97 -0700, Jonathan Albrecht wrote:
>So, in essense (my understanding) it does protect better than normal
>oil, but it can also starve some parts of oil (or lead to it).  I know
>there are some products out there now that don't use PTFE, and maybe
>they are different/better.  I don't know.
>

Ok, remember I'm a DSE. Now where somewhat in my field of specialty.  There
are actually two types of lubrication which are important to the life of
the engine. The first is due to the residual film upon startup. The second
is the hydrodynamic lubrication of the journal bearings and film lube of
the cylinder walls, cam lobes, etc., of the running engine.  The h-d
lubication of the bearings of a running engine is a totally different
situation than the film lube upon startup or of the cylinder walls. The
demands on the lube are much different between these two situations. 

So, the real question is the Duralube test indicative of what's most
important to YOUR engine, as it's used. Everyone's situation is different,
extreme northern cold starts, southwest desert 3 hour runs in summer, short
trips, long highway drives on daily drivers.  So, your best lube is going
to be a compromise. You need to address YOUR specific needs. The mass
marketing of infomercials does NOT do this. 

That's all I'm going to say for the rest of this thread.

Ed

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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:37:25 -0700
From: Randy Ring 
Subject: Dura Lube/oil additives
To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'" 

Dura Lube/oil additives:

I tried a product once.  It was a $5,000 mistake.  It's called RESTORE.
It's an oil additive.  It's a thick blue substance.  I put a can in a
Toyota Supra.  The engine had lots of miles on it and I was planning on
selling the vehicle.  According to my mechanic, the oil galleys are too
small to properly lubricate the two overhead cams (factory design flaw).
 RESTORE actually "plugged" the holes and reduced the oil flow to the
cam bearings causing them to seize.  I would NOT recommend using this
product in anything, unless you know someone you REALLY don't like.
That's my experience, hope it helps.

Thanks,
Randy "Gnarls" Ring
85 Toy Std. cab, 22R
Randy_Ring@environ.com

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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:01:09 -0700
From: Scott Wilson 
Subject: Dura Lube/oil additives
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

I had a similar (not as bad) experience with a oil additive for engines
with some miles on 'em.  The one I tried was called Smoke Stop, it is
the same thing as this Restore.  They're designed for engines with miles
on them.  The idea is that the piston rings on old motors are worn down
so they let some oil slip by.  The additives (in their pure form) are
VERY thick.  Supposedly they mix with the oil and simply thicken up the
oil.  It doesn't always work this way, especially since you have to pour
it in up by the valves.  The result in my Mazda engine was a valve that
would stick when ever I ran it on the freeway.  I sold the vehicle
before the next oil change, so I don't know if the problem was resolved
or not.  

Its best to stay away from oil thickening additives.

Scott
- -- 
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:52:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: legar@haverford.edu
Subject: Oil and oil additives
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

I would stick with the 5W-30 - we have had good luck with it and from my
understnding new designes and research have found that thin oils lubricate
better than thick oils - thats why some manual trannys have ATF in them
rather than 90w. Just my limited knolege


As a testominal to toyota quality - I know someone with 3 Toyotas which have
survived any number of insults from "mechanic in a bottle" engine treatments
- - one has 180,000 on it. Not that I would recomend useing these products -
just goes to show what a Toyota can take - mind you these vehicles just have
oil and timeing belt changes - no other fluid changes for the life of the
vehicle - just tires, brakes and struts - plugs every 75,000 or so if he
does not strip the threads the first time - if so he just leaves them in for
life. I can't figure the guy out - he is paranoid about dealers breaking his
car - but then he had problemes with the local dealer that might warrent it.

Leo 

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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:42:19 -0700
From: Randy Ring 
Subject: Oil Additives & Synthetics
To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'" 

My opinion from my research and personal experience:

There is no evidence, proof, or published studies that documents that 
the use of oil additive or synthetic oils do anything to enhance 
performance or extended the "life" of the mechanical components that 
they are claimed to lubricate in practical applications.  Why?  One 
published study: Consumer Reports Aug 1996.

No oil company, no manufacturer of engines or automobiles endorses their 
use.  In fact, in some cases, the manufacturer states in writing that 
they will VOID your warranty if you use them.
Why?

This are many documented and published research studies that state that 
the use of PTFE (Dupont's Teflon) will, in fact, cause pre-mature wear 
on the metal surfaces and components that are supposed to be protected 
and lubricated.

Dupont engineers, many years ago, when they invented "Teflon" stated 
that the use of PTFE in engine oil for lubrication was NOT recommended.  
There was a law suit, and Dupont basically could not "restrain trade" 
(tell someone what to do with their product after they bought it), and 
therefore, by law, were forced to sell it to companies (the ones that 
now want you to transfer funds from your checking account to theirs 
based upon "testimonials" and other Hollywood Hype) that later marketed 
PTFE as a "miracle lubricant" oil additive.

One study done by Briggs & Stratton Corporation, took two engines off 
the assembly line and ran them both for 16 hours, each with regular oil. 
 They drained the engines and put regular oil in one and "Snake Oil" 
(containing PTFE) in the other.  They ran them for 16 hours.  Then they 
drain the oil out of both engines and ran them without oil for 16 hours. 
 Both engines ran fine on NO OIL. They then disassembled both engines 
and examined all components for wear or other damage.  The engine with 
the Snake Oil suffered more wear and metal damage than the one without 
the Snake Oil.

Major oil companies are some of the largest and most wealthy in the 
world.  They hire the best and most knowledge engineers and scientist 
there are.  If they determined that "oil additives" like PTFE would make 
your engine last longer, wouldn't it make sense that they would be 
putting in their formulation to market a better product?

Sometimes slicker is not always better.  Example, asked your local auto 
transmission expert if they recommend the use of automatic transmission 
"additives".  In fact, my transmission mechanic recommends the use of 
thinner oil (Castrol GTX 50 wt motor oil) to make my 5 speed syncros 
"lock up" sooner for smoother shifting.

When I was into sand rails, many guys ran 40 wt motor oil in the VW 
transaxles for better shifting and less drag.

There's more to this subject... And the debate and BS goes on....

That's my experience, hope it helps.
Randy Ring
1985 Toy P/U
Randy_Ring@environ.com

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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:47:38 -0400
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: synthetic gear oil???
To: "        -         (052)Toy4x4 (a) tlca.org" 

Jonathan:

I've used
  Redline synthetic
  Castrol synthetic
  Valvoline synthetic
  Mobile 1
  Competetion Engineering (weird blue stuff thats "sticky", rated 75-150)
  assorted non synth gear oils.

Personally the only difference (other than the blue stuff) is that some smell
worse than others. The rumor is that the worse it smells, the better it is.

I like the synth for the winter so my gearbox doesnt feel like cement
in the morning.

All the synth stuff runs about $7 per qt around here.

EWong

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Date: Thu, 22 May 97 08:57 PDT
From: Robert.Elsemore@ncal.kaiperm.org
Subject: synthetic gear oil???
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org, albr9619@uidaho.edu

Jonathan,

Not sure about Syntech, but you would want to use GL-5 grade
gear oil in your diffs and t-case.  If your tranny is a manual,
you would want to use GL-4 grade so that the synchros will work
well.  If you tranny is an auto...I don't know...synthetic ATF?

- -Rob E. 

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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:31:54 -0500
From: Todd Hornsby 
Subject: Oil Additives & Synthetics
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

Generally I agreee with what your saying and find no fault in the Consumer
Reports magazine you mentioned. Matter of fact I liked and agreed with the
article. I think lumping snake oil additives in with synthetic motor oils
is a stretch however.

At 12:42 PM 5/22/97 -0700, you wrote:
>There is no evidence, proof, or published studies that documents that 
>the use of oil additive or synthetic oils do anything to enhance 
>performance or extended the "life" of the mechanical components that 
>they are claimed to lubricate in practical applications.  Why?  One 

You'll get some email on the above I'm sure.

>No oil company, no manufacturer of engines or automobiles endorses their 
 ^^^^ not true     ^^^^ not true  
   
>use.  In fact, in some cases, the manufacturer states in writing that 
>they will VOID your warranty if you use them.

First let's divide oil additives (which I personally consider 'snake oil')
from synthetic oil. There's a BIG difference IMHO. I don't go in for that
additive stuff and you're right: one would be hard put to prove this stuff
does anything close to what it claims. As to synthetic oil you will
certainly have NO problem completey substituting it for standard dino oil.
And there is plenty of proof (based on API tests and consumer Reports
mentions this if memory serves) that synthetic oil does indeed perform much
better at EXTREME temperature ranges than dino. Most common synthetic oils
(mobil 1) don't have the PTFE stuff as far as I know nor do the premium
specialty brands like Redline. Personally I dont' put synth in my cars
(except for one) though I occasionally throw a qt. in with a fresh oil
change. For the average motorists needs, synth. oil may be overkill or not
worth the added expense which is pretty much what consumer reports said (I
think?).

You're wrong about manufacturers voiding warranties and such however:
Chevrolet who manufactures both engines and automobiles has been selling
new Corvettes with the venerable 350 for a number of years with the factory
fill being synthetic Mobil1. As far as I know usage of any dino or
synthetic oil that meets minimal API ratings stipulated by the manufacturer
will not void any warranty on any vehicle (remember I'm not talking the
additive junk). I do remember a time some years back when some
manufacturers were claiming it would void warranty but in all honesty I
haven't heard this one in quite a while. The only exception to the
synthetic rule I know of is the Mazda rotary engine (and there is a
workaround here too). I believe there are other manufacturers going to
synth factory fill as well. 

Otherwise I'd be curious to know of a current make/model that voids
warranty based on usage of synth oil. I do not recollect my '88 Toyota
owners manual mentioning that I should not use synth. oil. I think all it
says is that I must use an oil that meets or exceeds some API
classification or other and maybe gave some viscosity recommendations. This
certainly doesn't rule out synthetics.

As for oil companies: Mobil is a big oil company and I'm sure they're
advocates of synthetic oil.  :)


>Major oil companies are some of the largest and most wealthy in the 
>world.  They hire the best and most knowledge engineers and scientist 
>there are.  If they determined that "oil additives" like PTFE would make 

In fact there are lots of 'additives' in dino oils too that have allowed
them to provide such excellent lubrication properties these days. Todays
dino oils are better than yesterdays dino oil and in many respects have
narrowed the gap with synthetics.

>Sometimes slicker is not always better.

Yep as evidenced by the difference between GL4 and GL5. Depends on
application as to what is desirable I suppose.

>Example, asked your local auto =
>transmission expert if they recommend the use of automatic transmission 
>"additives".  In fact, my transmission mechanic recommends the use of 
>thinner oil (Castrol GTX 50 wt motor oil) to make my 5 speed syncros 
>"lock up" sooner for smoother shifting.

I used the same stuff in a 5 speed I rebuilt a long time ago. It worked I
guess. Nowadays I would only use GL4 at a GL4/5 combo for a manual tranny.
And for that matter since it's rarely changed, the price diff between dino
and synth gear oil is hardly worth considering. (IMHO price difference
plays a much bigger role w/ respect to motor oils.)

Let me make an analogy between dino oil and synth oil that many on this
list in colder climates can corroborate. At about 10 below zero (F) I
equate my dino oil filled (75W90) 5speed shifting to trying to stir a
bottle of peanut butter. AFter replacing with Redline MT90 (synthetic
75W90) and at the same temperature right out of the garage (not warmed up)
shifting is more like stirring a glass of chocolate milk.

Interesting post. A lot of the same info has been circulating in
rec.autos.tech for a while now.

Saludos,
Todd
________________________________________________________________________
- -Todd Hornsby (San Antonio, TX)              http://www.texas.net/~toddh
- -toddh@texas.net                    alt: thornsby@alumni.cs.colorado.edu

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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:53:49 -0700
From: "Michael Medart" 
Subject: Oil decisions
To: "Toyota 4x4 (TLCA)" 

>came to Poland and was filled with synthetic 5W50. I'm not sure it was good
>idea. What oil would be better to my engine? Should I stay on synthetic or
>fill it with mineral one?
>I asked about it few weeks ago and noone answered me!!!

>Thanks
>Tomek

I personally would go with the sythetic, Tomek.  Been using Mobil1 in
engines, trannies, differentials, and gearboxes since 1984 and have had 
nothing but excellent results.

The motor oil variant costs more than petroleum, but I go a 5000 miles 
with the Mobil1 instead of 3000 (don't know how many kilometers that 
is...) because the sythetic just dosen't break down like the petroleum 
does.  Also use them in my quads (4-wheeled ATV's) because they sit in 
the garage for sometimes months at a time between rides and regular oil 
will break down a lot quicker from the condensation that's formed inside 
an engine.  Also the sythetic deals with the heat from these air-cooled 
single-cylinder engines better than the dino oils (noticed the difference 
RIGHT away when I changed to synthetic).

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Michael Medart, Ventura, CA bigblue@anacapa.net
1988  Toyota  4x4  X-Tra Cab V-6, Rancho/Downey
lift,  4.88  gears, Detroit E-Z locker, ARB Air Locker
Rancho  RS  9000's  w/remote,  Con-Fer  shackles/
skid plates and roof rack,  33" BFG Muds.  RTI: 651
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:35:05 -0500
From: Todd Hornsby 
Subject: synthetic gear oil???
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org

At 09:47 AM 5/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I like the synth for the winter so my gearbox doesnt feel like cement
>in the morning.

That's my favorite reason for the synth stuff too!

I think the original post mentioend Castrol 'Syntec' gear oil. If I'm not
mistake isn't Syntec a blended oil? IF SO: I have a problem with blended
synth/dino oil. The blended stuff doesn't seem to state just what the ratio
is and therefore it could be just about anything. If this is a 'pure'
synthetic afterall - nevermind.

Saludos,
Todd
________________________________________________________________________
- -Todd Hornsby (San Antonio, TX)              http://www.texas.net/~toddh
- -toddh@texas.net                    alt: thornsby@alumni.cs.colorado.edu

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