IFS Lifts
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:06:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Taco susp. lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> I think maybe I could get my grandfather to build one for a lot
> cheaper...is this a viable lift or just a poorman's lift kit?
> TIA
> Steve C.
> capuano@hypercon.com
That's pretty funny that some people call toyota's 'taco's' One of my
friend's has a toyota that I dubbed the 'Taco Toy', but it had to do more
with it's color and heritage than anything else...(plus the tranny fluid
smelled spicy like hot sauce)
Well, back to the lift idea... I think I would have to put this lift more
in the 'poor man's' lift kit category. It looks like a well made lift
(but I do kinda wonder how strong that collar mounted on the shock would
be), but it's basically the same concept as 'cranking' up the t-bars on
the older IFS toyota's. There is nothing wrong with it, but keep in mind
that
a) you WILL need to get an alignment after each adjustment (camber changes
a lot during travel)
b) you will have more wear on the cv joints and boots
c) you will NOT have any more travel
d) the higher you crank it, the stiffer your suspension will be. This
incidently has nothing to do with 'pre-loading' the springs...that's just
a pile of crap that somebody came up with either to explain why the ride
is stiffer, or to make money selling aftermarket HD torsion bars that you
probably don't need (probably the later)
Cranking up the torsion bar simply put's the a-arms at a great angle
(stock is roughly parallel to the ground). The greater angle gives a
shorter moment arm => it requires more force to compress the suspesion.
Think of it this way: if you are trying to remove a really stuck bolt,
it's much easier if you have a 2' long breaker bar than a 6" long socket
wrench.
In affect, cranking up the torsion bars actually put's less load on the
bars than in the stock position.
With the Tacoma's (that have coil springs), this isn't quite as noticeable
(because the springs mount a ways out on the a-arm), but the principal is
still the same.
Also, in regards to point 'c', a stock (torsion bar IFS) toy only has
around 4.5" of travel--total! If you crank up your suspension 2", you
leave yourself with about 1/2" to 0" of downtravel. If you use this
method to mount bigger tires, then you can lose a lot of total travel (or
risk having the tires take a big chunk out of your fender).
With the tacoma's, this isn't as bad, seems like thhey have like 6.5" of
suspension travel or so...anybody remember for sure?
As I see it, cranking the torsion bars (or effectively lengthening the
springs on the Tacoma's) gives you a few advantages: Increased ground
clearance, increased weight carying capacity (if you need it for a winch
or whatever), and a stiffer suspension w/ more uptravel, which is nice if
you like to 'pre-run', and tend to bottom your suspension.
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 01:24:58 -0600
From: Steven Benson
Subject: Rancho Lift/IFS
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
A few people in my club, as well as myself, have run the Rancho IFS lift
and loved it. The lift is somewhat adjustable and should work just fine
for 33's. The Rancho lift can also be used with Downey parts to get some
extreme articulation as well.
As for other IFS lifts, one of our club members just ran the Pro-Comp
IFS lift and I like the looks of it as well. The ride seems a little
softer than the Rancho and has some beefier components such as an
additional support from the frame to the lowered front a-arm hanger,
nice.
Kevin Water wrote:
Just wondered if any of you Toyota nuts out there have installed a
Rancho ifs lift kit and if it was any good? I want a lift to handle
33,s without any rub at full lock and am concerned about reliability
since I am a high mileage driver. ( I don't want to have to align the
front end all the time) I also am thinking about a lock right for the
front end and was wondering if this would adversely affect highway
driving with the front hubs locked in.
______________________________________________
Steven Benson
'85 Toy X-Cab | MNTOYX4 | MN4WDA | TLCA #4835
http://www.off-road.com/~MNTOYX4
mailto:toyx4@winternet.com
-
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:07:19 -0500
From: "Peter"
Subject: PRO COMP
To:
Anyone have experience with Procomp lift for Solid axle Toys?
I currently have a skyjacker (not Soft-ride) And springs are sagging way
too much!!!!
Any info would be appreciated~!!!!!!!
Pete
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:11:36 -0800 (PST)
From: TOM ROMPIES
Subject: rancho and pro comp lifts
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
The question was asked about the rancho ifs lifts. I have installed one on
my friends '91 extra cab v6. We ordered it from Downey with the rear
springs. The install was o.k. but the directions left a little to be
desired. As for all the parts matching up they did a good job only once did
we have o grind a little.
As for performance we are not to happy, I posted a question earlier about
this but no reply ever I guess we can try again and see. Once the kit was
in we noticed the drive shafts binding and the front end lifting when in
4wheel going forward, when we reveresed the truck would lower. This we
cured after three alingments and some adjusting of the t bars. After
several months we noticed that the steering wheel was vibrating an awfull
lot so we balanced the tires. no good, I should mention that the vibration
was in 4wheel high only. We looked it over and had no clue, so we took it
to bear frame and axle in denver. They had no idea what it was and they are
a autherized rancho dealer and repair center. Since they could not fix it
they called in a rancho employee who was supposed to be an expert. They
fidled with it for two days no luck so they decided to raise the front dif
back to its org. location since it seemed that the drive shafts were
binding. They drove the truck and pronounced it quired. NOT, as we drove
it of the lott and hit 4wheel high it came right back, that is were we are
at right now. A gentleman from CA E-mailed me about their long travel kits
thinking that this may work but we have not tried it yet. We keep trying to
call rancho but the line is always busy. so in closing our opion of the
RANCO kit is not to great.
As for my own truck, I installed the Pro Comp 4" lift on it and I am very
happy with it. again install was pretty straight forward for the front end
some grinding was required for the rear a-arm supports but it all fit well.
I am running the rancho t bars in it and the ride is excellent. As for the
rear, this kit went on a '91 4runner, again install was easy. My only
problem was with the rear coils, Pro Comp list a 4" lift which we all know
might get you 3.5" but when I bought the kit I told them that 4" was very
important to me and that I carry a heavy load. No problem they said, wel,
their coils are now sitting in my basement and I have custom coils from
national spring, a horror story on its own, in the back now. The coils in
it now give me the 4" lift I was looking for initionaly but they are wound
at 240# spring rate so I lost all axle articulation. I called them and had
them make some new ones, they just came in this week and i have not had a
chance to install them but the specs for these are 5.5" of true lift and a
spring rate of 170#. We will see how these fare. The Pro Comp coils did
very good off road axle articulation was great but not the lift. If I had
to suggest a system from my own expiernces I would say Pro Comp. Now if I
only knew if the long travel kit in CA will fit I would be set. Got to go
going wheeling with the RISING SUN guys sunday so I have to prep my truck.
I ope that this helps you in anyway, good luck.
"TASTE DEATH/LIVE LIFE"
Tom Rompies "T"
TOM ROMPIES
E-mail romps@earthlink.net
--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 23:40:46 -0500 (EST)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Suspension lifts
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-03-03 20:41:12 EST, you write:
> I have a 93 4 Runner with the ProComp stage II. If the goal of you lift is
> just to clear the tires you might want the rancho lift (2.5") the 4" of
> the pro comp is a little too tall and I think my truck looks a little
> funny with the front higher than the back. The "Free" shocks that come
> with the kit are very soft, I switched to the RS9000's. I also used larger
> torsion bars up front. The kit comes with a drop brackett for the brake
> lines but new longer steel braided lines would be better.
>
> > and install 33BFG mud terrains. Has anyone out there had experience with
> any
> > of the top manufacturers of susp. lifts? ie Trailmaster,superlift,Pro
comp.
>
> > and what is the difference between a stage 1 and stage 2 susp.lift? If I
> go
> > with a 4" susp. lift will it affect anything else on my truck?ie
> > brakelines,steering. I use my truck as my daily driver but am thinking
> that I
>
I put the 4" stage I on my 90 Toy truck. It came with rear 3.5" blocks, and
it is still sitting level after a year. I put on 33" buckshots first on 8"
rims, and the never rubbed (but they came close). With the 33" swamper
radials now there does look like room for more.
Another thing- Pro Comp leaves out the fact that 33" tires and their blocks
will rub the wheel well near the cab on the rear. I had to cut mine(first
time cutting my baby-almost cried) but it is not noticable looking at the
truck. On the front, you do need the room to clear the tires at full travel.
Hope this helps.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:31:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Suspension lifts
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On Mon, 3 Mar 1997 HIKEREX@aol.com wrote:
> I own a 95 Toyota X-tra cab. This is my first toy and first 4x4. I have
> learned alot from all of you on the TLCA mailing list and hope that you can
> answer a few of my many questions. I should also tell you I'm not a mechanic
> so please stick to laymens terms. I want to install a 4 inch suspension lift
> and install 33BFG mud terrains. Has anyone out there had experience with any
> of the top manufacturers of susp. lifts? ie Trailmaster,superlift,Pro comp.
Here's what I know (and this is assuming you've got a the 'older' style
torsion bar suspension--not Tacoma)
Last summer a friend and I installed the Superlift (standard) 3.5-5.5"
adjustable lift. This lift (btw) gives the same 4" as the Trailmaster and
Pro-comp.
The installation was a big deal, but not really hard. We got the lift at
5:00pm Friday, and worked until 3:30am.
On saturday we worked from about 10:00 am until 12:00 midnight. On
Sunday, we stared around 10:00 or 11:00 and had it sitting outside the
garage by 6:00 at night. Boy was I ever tired at work the next day!
Installation didn't take many special tools, and was pretty strait
forward. Most of it is just unbolting and bolting stuff on and off. You
will need to do some cutting on part of a bracket (the front passenger
side lower wishbone mount), and this can be done with a grinder or a
hacksaw. It's real minor, so you can still return the truck back to stock
later on (don't know how important this is to you).
Also, the tie rod ends need to be pressed out of the 'knuckle' brackets
and then pressed back into the bracket that come with the kit. My
friend's Uncle was able to do this for us, but any decent shop should be
able to do it for a few bucks (took them like 30 minutes to drive there,
set it up, do it, and return back)
Otherwise, it's pretty strait forward. Our particular Superlift kit was
messed up (the lower drop brackets weren't drilled out properly), so we
choose (bad idea!) to modify them so that they would work. Anyway, it's
been a big ordeal getting the eccentric cam slots the right size so that
the alignment shop could get his truck aligned. We still haven't finished
it. I don't know why, but we haven't tried calling Superlift about
this....probably need to do that pretty soon.
Anyway, asside from that major PITA flaw, it seems to be a decent kit.
The Superlift kit also has some other things that are better than other
kits (IMO). The lower drop brackets are one piece. Other kit's use a
three piece bracket for the rear part of the wishbones, and re-use the
front crossmember along with there too bracket for the front.
The Superlift kit comes with a big HD skidplate. It also comes with new
Stainless Steel brake lines for the front end too. (The rear brake line
had to be lowered).
Here's what I know about the others:
The Superlift Superlink (really expensive) also replaces the upper a-arm,
and has some kind of cam action for the t-bar, which gives you two
different spring rates. Might give more travel too, not sure. But it
costs like 1400 versus the Standard kit which is 700 (the one we got).
The Trailmaster kit. I've heard from a reliable source that the
components (particularilly the lower whishbone drop down brackets) are
much beefier than the Pro-Comp. I spoke to several people who have had
Pro-Comp or Trailmaster. A few people have had alignment problems with
the trailmaster. I haven't talked to anyone who has had problems with the
Pro-Comp. You can not use your stock skid plate (might be able to modify
it though, not sure)
The Pro-Comp, Stage I. This kit looks very similar to the Trailmaster
kit. There may be one difference, but this thing may only be available on
the Stage II. That is that the drop down brackets have braces that run
from the brackets to the bump stops. You *want* these. So, check out the
kit's in person. The brackets will have these strange looking braces that
run out from the brackets, and this will really help to maintain your
alignment. This kit usually goes for $560, and does allow you to use your
stock skid plate.
Stage II also includes a lower a-arm/crossmember brace and heavier duty
knuckle drop down extensions. It also allows you to use Pro-Comps monster
$200 skid plate. I don't know if you can use the stock skid plate.
Rancho 3" This kit is the only one (except *maybe* the Superlift
Superlink) that add's suspension travel. I think it add's like 3" or so.
That's a lot, considering that your stock truck only has about 4.5". This
kit is also the only one (besides the Superlift Superlink) that replaces
your upper A-arm too. At least 'on paper' this looks like the best lift,
because it is made of HD, thick material, and gives extra travel, and is
about the same price as the others (around 600-700, I think). But, I've
heard of several cases where people had problems with this kit.
And the Downey/Rancho 3". I don't personally like this, because you can't
run your hubs locked or 4wd at highway speeds. Also, I beleive that the
modifications that give you the 10-11" of travel (as Downey advertised)
can be added to the Rancho kit too. You many want to check into this
though.
The ultimate IMHO (don't know of anyone who has actually tried this) a
Pro-Comp Stage II, with the three piece drop down brackets welded
together. Next, add the Downey/Rancho 10-11" travel kit (diff not
dropped), but only crank up the t-bars an inch or so. That way you can
run it on the highway with the hubs locked/in 4wd. This would give you
lots of strength, and (potentially) even more than 11" of travel (the
Downey kit is limited by the stock upper bump stops). But this is just a
theory of mine...
> and what is the difference between a stage 1 and stage 2 susp.lift? If I go
> with a 4" susp. lift will it affect anything else on my truck?ie
> brakelines,steering. I use my truck as my daily driver but am thinking that I
> would like to install a locker in the rear. Considering that most of my
> driving is highway how would this affect the trucks handling abilities ? And
We went from 33's and a 3" body to about 9" of lift and 36's. Yeah, it
affected the handling! It's not too bad, but not like stock. Also,
unless you really need it, just get a single steering dampner--your truck
handles much better with just one (or better yet, none).
With 33's on 15x10" rims, and only a 4" lift, it should handle/drive fine,
though you will want to lower the gearing if you do any towing or hauling
with your truck. My friend still has stock gearing with 36's..
If you want to talk to the guy who owns this Superlift kit (I installed it
with him), his name's Paul. email is jspdp@acad1.alaska.edu
> since I've got everyone's attention, I have been hearing this funny noise
> (hard to describe) when I come off the clutch a little to fast. could this be
> the clutch slipping? especially on a hill. its not a loud noise and its
> really short, sort of like a kid pretending he is stomping on his brakes.
I dunno. There's one thing I can think of, (as many (or most??) toyota
owners haven't heard had this problem)... are you sure you aren't
squeaking the tires..? ;)
Naw, seriously, I don't know. Can you give any more details?
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:19:00 +1100
From: "Jones, Andrew AL"
Subject: preloading torsion bars
To: "'Toy4x4 List'"
Eric wrote (12/3/97)
>My quarrel is with the idea of 'preloading'
Eric,
There is a little more to the preloading situation than just angles and
statics. After all these analyses assume that the bar is a perfectly
rigid object, where as the torsion bar actually functions by way of its
elastic response to stress and strain (as well as the static loading
analysis mentioned by Jonathan).
In the elastic region a materials response to stress and strain is
linear, ie. load it a certain amount and it bends a certain amount (then
release the load and it bends back). If a member is "preloaded" with to
a certain level of stress then an even greater amount of stress is
required to further bend it. Twisting the torsion bar places it under a
certain level of stress (torsional) the effects of which include:
1. raising the vehicle, if the torsional stress level is sufficient to
overcome some of the downward load of the vehicles weight,
2. increasing the apparent stiffness of the ride, as the persuaded bar
now has greater energy with which to resist and respond to loading (but
the stiffness of the torsion bar itself is a material property and
remains unchanged).
> Seems to me the ONLY way to put additional
>torsion on a given torsion bar is to make it support additional weight.
You are basically correct here, additional weight means additional
stress, and torsion is just another type of stress, "twisting weight" if
you like.
Anyway, I don't feel that I have explained this very clearly - sorry -
but twisting the bar does "preload" it. I hope that this is useful.
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:13:12 -0800
From: Eric Johnson
Subject: preloading torsion bars
To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"
Sorry for beating this horse any further...
Jones, Andrew AL wrote:
> >My quarrel is with the idea of 'preloading'
>
> There is a little more to the preloading situation than just angles and
> statics. After all these analyses assume that the bar is a perfectly
> rigid object, where as the torsion bar actually functions by way of its
> elastic response to stress and strain (as well as the static loading
> analysis mentioned by Jonathan).
I agree - I'm not assuming the bars are rigid :)
> In the elastic region a materials response to stress and strain is
> linear, ie. load it a certain amount and it bends a certain amount (then
> release the load and it bends back). If a member is "preloaded" with to
> a certain level of stress then an even greater amount of stress is
> required to further bend it.
I agree with you this far.
>Twisting the torsion bar places it under a
> certain level of stress (torsional) the effects of which include:
> 1. raising the vehicle, if the torsional stress level is sufficient to
> overcome some of the downward load of the vehicles weight,
But this is only a geometric effect... since the vehicle weighs the same
before and after adjusting the torsion bars, there can't possibly be any
additional torsion on them! (in fact, its a tad less due to the geometry of
the torque arm, but I won't push that point. :) So in the case of our
trucks, if you turn the rear of the bar (where it adjusts) 2 degrees, the
front of the bar turns 2 degrees (assuming the weight of the truck remains
constant). If the front DIDNT twist with the rear, we wouldn't be having
this conversation, because it wouldn't provide lift! The bar isn't any more
twisted (or preloaded) than it was before. If it was (and here, statics
DOES apply), whats supplying the countering torque? The only thing that CAN
supply the countering torque is the weight of the vehicle, which we've
already agreed stays constant. Of course, if we turn it more than a couple
degrees, we have to start worrying about the effective length of the torque
arm... and you don't wanna go there anyways, since the resulting physics
supports my view :)
> 2. increasing the apparent stiffness of the ride, as the persuaded bar
> now has greater energy with which to resist and respond to loading (but
> the stiffness of the torsion bar itself is a material property and
> remains unchanged).
> > Seems to me the ONLY way to put additional
> >torsion on a given torsion bar is to make it support additional weight.
>
> You are basically correct here, additional weight means additional
> stress, and torsion is just another type of stress, "twisting weight" if
> you like.
But you can't get additional stress without additional weight.
> Anyway, I don't feel that I have explained this very clearly - sorry -
> but twisting the bar does "preload" it.
I still respectfully disagree. :)
I would agree with you in this instance: Say we take a stock rig, add a
heavy winch and bumper, then crank the torsion bars to return to original
front height. In this case, the bars ARE handling more stress and are in
fact preloaded, because the bars are twisted more than before (i.e. they
are carrying more weight).
Or for another example - hold a baseball bat or similar object out in front
of you. Hang onto one end, and hold the bat out so the end you are not
holding is one inch above the horizontal. Now twist your arm (the torsion
bar in this case!) so the bat is one inch below horizontal. it requires
exactly the same the same amount of torque in each position (I picked 1
inch above and 1 below so in this case the length of the torque arm would
be the same).
- --
- -- ej@blarg.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:26:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: preloading torsion bars
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> > Seems to me the ONLY way to put additional
> >torsion on a given torsion bar is to make it support additional weight.
>
> You are basically correct here, additional weight means additional
> stress, and torsion is just another type of stress, "twisting weight" if
> you like.
Well, yes *twisting* the bar does pre-load it, but *adjusting* the angle
of the a arms via the torsion bar shouldn't be *twisting* the bar. Just
turning it.
> Anyway, I don't feel that I have explained this very clearly - sorry -
> but twisting the bar does "preload" it. I hope that this is useful.
I'm not sure if I agree with you. If you lift the truck by adjusting the
torsion bars, you aren't actually twisting them more, you are simply
*turning* the entire bar. With the a-arms at an angle, there is *less*
torsional stress on the bar. Because of that, the bar actually is
'un-twisted' a bit when cranked up.
Let's say the bar needs to *twist* 60 degrees to hold the truck level. If
you raise the height of the truck via the t-bar adjustment, then there is
less twisting force required to hold the truck up. So, it may only need to
be twisted 55 degrees to hold up the truck. IE, *less* preload. Right??
I really, really don't want to start any arguements/flame wars, ect. over
this, so please let me know if I'm wrong about any of this. I want to
know the truth!
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:59:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: lift blocks
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>
> If I were to go with lift blocks, they would be iron or steel, not
> aluminum. Aluminum is simply too malleable to center your rear suspension
> around, IMHO.
Probably right. I dunno, we're using a 4" aluminum block with 2.5" longer
shackles and an add-a-leaf. Like I said before--no problems yet!
Also, for those of you that are planning to lift your trucks, I would
really recommend going with new springs all the way around. For instance,
the 4" blocks that came with my friend's Superlift kit were a 100 dollar
option! But we didn't know that when we orderd the kit (they just say,
'the blocks are included in the price', yet the invoice listed them
seperate from the cost of the lift). I've seen Skyjacker 4-5" rears for
around 230 or so. If you don't have the money...fine, but wait until you
do. So far between the blocks, u-bolts, add-a-leafs, and shackles he's
almost spent as much as a new set of rear springs.
have fun,
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:01:46 -0500
From: WartHog
Subject: preloading torsion bars
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Eric Johnson wrote:
>
> Jones, Andrew AL wrote:
> >
> So in the case of our
> trucks, if you turn the rear of the bar (where it adjusts) 2 degrees, the
> front of the bar turns 2 degrees (assuming the weight of the truck remains
> constant).
>
Thru all of this, I havnt seen anyone adress the additional travel. If
you twist the back "2 deg", and the front raises "2 deg", then there is
"2 deg" more travle ( as far as the bar is concerned ), thus more twist
potential. More twist equals more stress on torsion bar.
A heavier bar, installed in the stock position, will raise the vehicle
because it comes to equalibrium with less deflection.
> > > Seems to me the ONLY way to put additional
> > >torsion on a given torsion bar is to make it support additional weight.
> >
Or to crank it up, and then bounce her off the stoppers.
Mark
rheschel@kent.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:34:49 -0500 (EST)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: preloading torsion bars
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I guess I will throw in my 2 cents worth...
In a message dated 97-03-14 09:03:23 EST, Mark writes:
> Thru all of this, I havnt seen anyone adress the additional travel. If
> you twist the back "2 deg", and the front raises "2 deg", then there is
> "2 deg" more travle ( as far as the bar is concerned ), thus more twist
> potential. More twist equals more stress on torsion bar.
I disagree. The bar is still lomited to the same ammount of travel as
before, being dictated by the bumpstops. Also, the bar has a built in range
of movement. By changing the position of the bar, you have changed where
that range of movement is located. if it could drop (bar twist) 3 inches
before, and you crank the bar up 1", the bar will still drop 3", but it will
"bottom" approx. 1" higher than before.
Make sense?
The tortion bar a built to handle a certain ammount of movement in either
direction. This makes sense as any metal bar will twist. I can't see how
twisting one end of the bar changes anything on the other end as far as
force/weight is concerned. The only thing I can figure is that there is a
time while adjusting that you turn one end and the other does not respond
yet. I think that is where the pre-load comes in. Otherwise, as someone
else said, you turn one end and the other end responds accordingly. There
has been no change in weight, so the bar is not being acted on by that.
Question: What if you crank DOWN the tortion bars? does that mena less
pre-load?
Just my thoughts
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 08:18:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: preloading torsion bars
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Question: What if you crank DOWN the tortion bars? does that mena less
> pre-load?
I am running a 4" Pro Comp lift and over sized bars and this is what I
have found. If you crank up the bars then park in such a way as to be
crossed up you will have less travel (static) than if you crank the bars
down. However with the bars cranked down if you lift the front of the
truck with a jack you will find that the wheels will not drop all the way
to the lower bump stop. You cannot use the entire travel (stop to stop) in
low speed (under 5 MPH) the bars just don't move that much. The Max I get
is 6" with the bars cranked down (3/4" below stock) and I lose static
travel as I go up. Parking on the same set of rocks with the bars cranked
up (1.5" over stock with poly stops) I have only a 4" difference as
measured from the hub to the bottem of the fender. I usually run with the
bars down, but when I need more active travel (hi speed driving 30 mph) I
like to crank up the bars a bit so I don't bottem out on the compression
bump stops. I hate IFS...
Christopher A. Geiger Voice 805-893-4044
Technical Operations Manager Fax 805-893-8758
UCSB MicroComputer Laboratory http://home1.gte.net/cgeiger/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:57:01 -0800
From: Eric Johnson
Subject: preloading torsion bars
To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"
WartHog wrote:
> Thru all of this, I havnt seen anyone adress the additional travel. If
> you twist the back "2 deg", and the front raises "2 deg", then there is
> "2 deg" more travle ( as far as the bar is concerned ), thus more twist
> potential. More twist equals more stress on torsion bar.
This I agree with... adjusting the bars, by itself, does not 'preload' the
bar... but since the bar is capable of getting twisted (on compression)
more than before (and less on extension), it may get beyond its 'linear'
zone, and be rougher off-road, during heavy compression (which is rough to
begin with!)
> A heavier bar, installed in the stock position, will raise the vehicle
> because it comes to equalibrium with less deflection.
Agreed. I'm not saying theres not a place for heavier torsion bars, I'm
just saying the reason has nothing to do with preloading (except in the
case where more weight has been added, such as a heavy winch/bumper). Heavy
tire/wheel combinations can bounce around pretty heavily at speed, and
thats another reason for heavier torsion bars.
- --
- -- ej@blarg.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:27:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: preloading torsion bars
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> > So in the case of our
> > trucks, if you turn the rear of the bar (where it adjusts) 2 degrees, the
> > front of the bar turns 2 degrees (assuming the weight of the truck remains
> > constant).
>
> Thru all of this, I havnt seen anyone adress the additional travel. If
> you twist the back "2 deg", and the front raises "2 deg", then there is
> "2 deg" more travle ( as far as the bar is concerned ), thus more twist
> potential. More twist equals more stress on torsion bar.
>
> A heavier bar, installed in the stock position, will raise the vehicle
> because it comes to equalibrium with less deflection.
I've read this over a few times, and each time I come away thinking you
mean differnt things.
Do you mean that if you have a HD torsion bar, then it won't need to twist
as much to hold up the truck (true, regardless of position), and therefore
doesn't need to twist as far (total) as a stock one would to bottom the
suspension? aha...okay, I get that.
Yeah, I can see how that would be easier on the t-bar, to some extent.
> > > > Seems to me the ONLY way to put additional
> > > >torsion on a given torsion bar is to make it support additional weight.
> > >
>
> Or to crank it up, and then bounce her off the stoppers.
Right, okay, yeah I agree with that. You're basically saying that if you
took a stock bar, and cranked it up, maybe it would twist the bar 30
degrees (to hold the truck up). Then to bottom the suspension, the bar
would need to twist an additional, say 30 degrees, for 60 degrees of
total twisting (durings suspension bottoming). If you took a HD bar,
and put it in with the same lift, then it would only need to twist, say 20
degrees to hold up the truck, and then during bottoming it would still
twist another 30 degrees, and therefor only have to twist a total of 50
degrees.
But this still doesn't mean that the ride would be any softer or
anything--just that maybe it would be easier on the bar.
hmm, hadn't thought about that perspective before.
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:34:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: preloading torsion bars
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>
> The tortion bar a built to handle a certain ammount of movement in either
> direction. This makes sense as any metal bar will twist. I can't see how
> twisting one end of the bar changes anything on the other end as far as
> force/weight is concerned. The only thing I can figure is that there is a
> time while adjusting that you turn one end and the other does not respond
> yet. I think that is where the pre-load comes in. Otherwise, as someone
> else said, you turn one end and the other end responds accordingly. There
> has been no change in weight, so the bar is not being acted on by that.
All pre-loading is, is how much weight the bar must handle to hold up the
truck. Zero preloading is zero twisting of the bar. If the bar must
twist 30 degrees to hold up the truck, then it's pre-loaded by whatever
amount of torque it takes to do that.
> Question: What if you crank DOWN the tortion bars? does that mena less
> pre-load?
Yes, but for the same reason that cranking UP the t-bar means LESS
pre-load. At any angle above or below parallel to the ground, it simply
takes less torque to hold the truck up--the moment arm is shorter. So, it
doesn't matter if you crank it up 1" or crank it down 1"--the pre-load is
the same, and is less than if it's parallel to the ground (which I'm
assuming is the case when stock)
And this is why it's stiffer when you crank up the t-bars. It simply
takes less force to hold up the truck.
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:05:47 -0500
From: WartHog
Subject: preloading torsion bars
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>
> I guess I will throw in my 2 cents worth...
>
> In a message dated 97-03-14 09:03:23 EST, Mark writes:
>
> >
> I disagree. The bar is still lomited to the same ammount of travel as
> before, being dictated by the bumpstops. Also, the bar has a built in range
> of movement. By changing the position of the bar, you have changed where
> that range of movement is located. if it could drop (bar twist) 3 inches
> before, and you crank the bar up 1", the bar will still drop 3", but it will
> "bottom" approx. 1" higher than before.
> Make sense?
>
No
By cranking the bar 1" higher, you have added 1" extra twist before
hitting the stop. I'm no off road mainiac. It takes very little to
bounce my 95 off the stoppers. If I cranked the bar to make the front
sit 1" higher, she would be bouncing off the stops 1" of twist beyond
design. It's the additional twist during the suspension travle that
fatigues the bar prematurely resulting in breakage.
> The only thing I can figure is that there is a
> time while adjusting that you turn one end and the other does not respond
> yet.
Thats called Friction. In a perfect system, In = Out. Friction keeps the
Out from ='ing in.
>
Mark
rheschel@bright.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:02:07 -0500 (EST)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: preloading torsion bars
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-03-14 18:12:54 EST, you write:
I wrote:
> I disagree. The bar is still lomited to the same ammount of travel as
> before, being dictated by the bumpstops. Also, the bar has a built in
> range
> of movement. By changing the position of the bar, you have changed where
> that range of movement is located. if it could drop (bar twist) 3 inches
> before, and you crank the bar up 1", the bar will still drop 3", but it
> will
> "bottom" approx. 1" higher than before.
> Make sense?
>
> No
>
> By cranking the bar 1" higher, you have added 1" extra twist before
> hitting the stop. I'm no off road mainiac. It takes very little to
> bounce my 95 off the stoppers. If I cranked the bar to make the front
> sit 1" higher, she would be bouncing off the stops 1" of twist beyond
> design. It's the additional twist during the suspension travle that
> fatigues the bar prematurely resulting in breakage.
>
I don't see what you are saying. I will say that I was wrong on some things.
In the scenario I gave, compression travel WILL decrease 1". As I said,
with the same weight, the bars have a built in range of movement. Cranking on
the bars changes that range. If this is wrong, some one please tell me
EXACTLY why this is wrong.
I do see that by cranking up the bars, You have increased the distance from
the arm to the upward compression stops. This extra distance would be where
the breakage would occur, because the bar is not being restricted as
designed, and can move further than the bar can take.
So I guess I agree, and disagree.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:26:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: preloading torsion bars
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> > By cranking the bar 1" higher, you have added 1" extra twist before
> > hitting the stop. I'm no off road mainiac. It takes very little to
> > bounce my 95 off the stoppers. If I cranked the bar to make the front
> > sit 1" higher, she would be bouncing off the stops 1" of twist beyond
> > design. It's the additional twist during the suspension travle that
> > fatigues the bar prematurely resulting in breakage.
> >
> I don't see what you are saying. I will say that I was wrong on some things.
> In the scenario I gave, compression travel WILL decrease 1". As I said,
> with the same weight, the bars have a built in range of movement. Cranking on
> the bars changes that range. If this is wrong, some one please tell me
> EXACTLY why this is wrong.
Okay, I think I missed your 'sencario'. But from just reading what you've
written here, I don't agree. I think the bars have a range of movement
that is quite a ways beyond what the stock setup's 4.5" of travel allows.
Otherwise how would they get away with 10"+ travel setups? The bar can
twist a lot farther than it ever does in the stock arrangement--though
this will surely lead to sooner breakage. But that's just like everything
else on your 4x, it's overdesigned to a certain point, and can usually
handle more abuse than it was intended for.
> I do see that by cranking up the bars, You have increased the distance from
> the arm to the upward compression stops. This extra distance would be where
> the breakage would occur, because the bar is not being restricted as
> designed, and can move further than the bar can take.
IMHO, the stock bars can take it. But they might not last as long as a
result of this.
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
-
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:31:44 +0000
From: "Mike Williams"
Subject: Skyjacker Lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On 14 Mar 97 , wgirindra@bbs.fronet.com (Wilkin Girindra) wrote:
............................................... my 81 toy has a
> 6" lift that has been on the truck for about 3 years. These springs
> are extremely stiff and have very little articulation.
> I'm currently looking at the 5" Skyjacker springs for all
> 4 corners. Has anyone had good or bad experience with these
> springs?
Many years ago I ran a 6" brand X suspension kit. When Skyjacker
came out with their early softride system (did not use teflon wear
pads, bolt style clips, and other features) I junked my 6" lift that
used add-a-leafs and blocks for rear lift. I found the new 5"
Skyjacker system gave a better ride, but was still a stiff suspension
(in stock form). Skyjacker has continued to improve their soft-ride
system and it should be an improvement over your 6" system.
IMHO a 5" or 6" suspension is going to ride stiff unless it is
modified to some extent.
Suggest any alternatives. I'm currently running
> 33x12.50 Yokohama Mud Diggers and will stay with 33" tires.
If you don't have a need for a 5" lift, try a 3" lift (in most
instances a 3" lift is not as stiff as a 5" lift). Your 33" tires
and 3" lift will be adequate for most situations (for rock crawling
Jack and Jay have a wealth of experience in this area).
Mike Williams
======+++++++++++++======
mwill@ctos.com
===++++++++++++++===
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:21:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: Crank it up!
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>question. If I am going to do this should I buy heavy duty torsion bars or will
>the stock ones take the extra load?
If you are going off-road buy the larger bars, the smaller ones will just
let you bottem out often.
> hard is it to install new ones?
Not too hard lift up the truck by the frame, remove the torsion adjuster
bolt, slide out the old shaft, slide in the new (tight fix) and install
the adjuster
its a 1 bannana job!
Chris Geiger
http://home1.gte.net/cgeiger/offroad.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:23:34 -0800
From: Eric Johnson
Subject: Crank it up!
To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"
Chad Daniel Zimmer wrote:
> Is cranking up your stock torsion bars a viable solution to increasing
ride
> height or for compensating for heavy accessories like brush gaurds and
winches?
> I plan on adding an ARB/Warn combo and I don't particularly like the idea
of
> driving a snow plow. I can't afford a complete lift so that is out of the
> question. If I am going to do this should I buy heavy duty torsion bars
or will
> the stock ones take the extra load?
I'd give it a try before dropping a bunch of money on new bars...but if you
want lift AND more weight capacity, you might need the heavier duty ones.
>How do you crank the stock ones up and how
> hard is it to install new ones?
You need a pair of 22mm wrenches (I think, might be 24mm) or a wrench and
an adjustable wrench. These are usually torqued pretty tight. At the rear
of of the bar, theres a bolt assembly. Loosen the top bolt, then crank the
bottom bolt around, which will adjust the height. I'd do both sides, (you
can keep the top bolt loose) then bounce the front end around a bit until
it all equalizes, and meaure that you've got it where you want it, then
tighten the top bolt again.
Lets see if I can apply the banana theory that was recently articulated to
me: This couldn't be more than a 1-banana job, right? :)
>Also who makes a good greasable lift shackle
> for the back, particularly one that will increase articulation. Any info
will
> be appriciated.
You shouldn't need to raise the rear to compensate for the weight in the
front... but I think Downey, NWOR, everyone else makes various shackles.
I've got some NWOR non-greasable ones, and they work fine.
- --
- -- ej@blarg.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:59:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Crank it up!
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Is cranking up your stock torsion bars a viable solution to increasing ride
> height or for compensating for heavy accessories like brush gaurds and winches?
It's an okay way to compensate. Though this is place where HD bars would
be a good solution. I really doubt that you need them though.
> I plan on adding an ARB/Warn combo and I don't particularly like the idea of
> driving a snow plow. I can't afford a complete lift so that is out of the
> question. If I am going to do this should I buy heavy duty torsion bars or will
Actually a complete lift won't make do anything for you as far as helping
out with the heavy load up front. In fact, most kits are kinda similar to
adding blocks (or traction lifts) to the rear.
> the stock ones take the extra load? How do you crank the stock ones up and how
> hard is it to install new ones?
I would think the stockers could handle it fine, but I don't know for
sure. Cranking them up is pretty easy. Find the t-bars, and follow them
back to where they mount on the frame. There is a cam-type unit, where
you can adjust the position of the bars. You need to back of the outer
most nut, and then hold the bolt in place while you screw the inner nut up
or down. Going up (tightening) will lift your truck. I think about 20
turns gave about 1.5-2" of lift on my friends truck (though we did lower
it a bit later on). Pretty easy! Though you will need to get an
alignment if you decide to actually raise the ride height.
I haven't removed them, but I'm pretty sure all you would need to do is
get the front frame up on jackstands (no weight on the front tires), and
then lossen the nut/t-bar until it wasn't under any stress. Then I think
the cam assembly can be unbolted...not sure, the manual should show how to
do this.
> Also who makes a good greasable lift shackle
> for the back, particularly one that will increase articulation. Any info will
> be appriciated.
I noticed Downey makes them. They're shackles seem pretty good, but I
haven't tried out the greaseable parts.
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:30:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: Pro-Comp Lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> I just received my Pro-Comp Stage II lift kit for a 1990 pickup. I need
> some insight on how hard this thing will be to install. What can I look
> for as problem spots. Any info will be appreciated.
It took me 20 hours to install the kit myself on my 4Runner. The sway bar
mounts and the compression struts did not fit my truck and the company was
no help. Also the shocks that came with the kit were too soft so I got a
set of RS 9000. The front end needed to be aligned after putting in the
kit. You don't need to cut off the frame to lower the front diff, just
bend the tabs in a little and you can get the diff down, than the tabs
will be there if you ever want to remove the lift.
Chris Geiger http://geiger.mcl.ucsb.edu/offroad.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:53:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Pro-Comp Lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On 2 Apr 1997, Fritzsche, David wrote:
> I just received my Pro-Comp Stage II lift kit for a 1990 pickup. I need
> some insight on how hard this thing will be to install. What can I look
> for as problem spots. Any info will be appreciated.
I've been meaning to write up our install of a Superlift kit (pretty
similar to the Pro-comp and Trailmaster)...but I haven't yet. So here's a
'quick' run down of what you will need to do.
Okay, first off, I want to say that you can install this kit without any
air tools or anything like that. You will need a hacksaw or grinder, a
pitman arm puller (or similar type that is very strong), and a regular box
of tools. You'll also need a couple of Jacks (I think you could do it
with just one) and a pair of nice high jackstands.
With any luck your instructions are pretty complete (the Superlift ones
were 'good enough'), and you should read them through at least once,
preferably twice before you do anything. If anybody's helping you out
with the kit, get them to read the instructions too. The install isn't
that hard, but is time consuming. I think we spent about 36 hours on
our's, but others have done it in much, much less time (like 8 hours or
so). I suspect a shop could do it even faster.
Anyway, you need to lift the frame up high enough that the front tires are
off the ground, and then put jackstands under the frame behind the sway
bars. Then pull out the jack, take off the tires, and shocks, and follow
the instructions.
The harder parts (that I remember)
Pulling the upper ball joint out of the knuckle. You will need a puller.
I used a $40 pitman arm puller from Western Auto, and returned it after I
was done with it (probably not the 'right thing to do' but it did work.)
Oh yeah, try asking at the parts counter, because sometimes places like
Western Auto will loan out pullers and tools if you give them some money
for collatoral--Western auto wants 10 dollars for a week, refunded when
you give them back the tool.
Pressing out those ball joints took a huge amount of force, I actually
thought I was going to break the puller, (it was a huge non-adjustable one
too), but the joints do pop out eventually. Also, put something
underneath the hub to catch it when it fall down. I ripped a cv boot wide
open on my friends cause I didn't (it did have a small rip in it already
from running around in 75+ degree weather with 1.5-2" of cranking--hubs
unlocked)
You will also need to press the tie rod ends out of the knuckle, and then
press them into the new ones that come with the lift. One guy I talked to
tried a pickle fork, and ended up destroying his, and bought new
greaseable ones instead. We lucked out, 'cause my friend's uncle had
access to a huge hydraulic press, which did them real easy.
When you drop down the diff you will need to trim off a corner of one of
the old drop down brackets. We used an electric grinder, but you could
use a hacksaw too (though it might be hard to get at it with the diff in
the way).
On the Superlift kit, an edge of the bumpstop needs to be trimmed, for
shock clearance. (though we didn't find that out until we tried that 3'
berm...at 35mph).
Also, if your kit uses different eccentric cams (I don't think it does)
then you will need to press off the old ones, and press the new ones on.
It is possible to beat the old ones off with a hammer, and press the new
ones on by just tightening the eccentric cam bolts when you put them on
the truck. It's easier just to get them pressed when you get the tied
rods done though.
That's all of the major things that I can think of offhand. Remember to
coat everything with some kind of penatrant, remember to re-tighten
everything a few days after you install the lift, and don't forget to
schedule and alignment apointment ahead of time, cause it's pretty hard to
get it back to spech using just a tape measure. One other thing: You may
want to pressure wash the underside before you start work, but be careful!
My friend did a real good job, and ended up destroying his oil pan gasket,
which is a PITA to change.
Hope this helps,
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:57:04 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
To: " - (052)Toy4x4 (a) tlca.org"
Dan Smith was asking about the 10" travel Downey/Rancho combo kit...
Jonathan Albrecht was commenting that the Downey kit cant be used on the highway
in 4WD.
If one looks at the kit - it uses U joints for the inner CVs. While this is
mega cheap
(compared to CVs - either tulip tripod (stock) or rezeppa (outer) design), U
joints
dont like operating at extreme angles contantly.
OK - so Downey was appealing to the masses and trying to keep the prices down.
Looking at a yota half shaft - one realizes that it isnt to hard to
1 - fab a new shaft with splines to match the stock outer CV
2 - make an adapter plate for the inner CV
3 - bolt on yer own rezeppa type CV (hmmm Porche 930?)
So Neil Sullivan has done that. His outfit is West Coast Off Road.
email is --- mmisullivan @ msn.com
His axles cost more than Downey's - but you get back the highway 4WD.
He has a photo ad in the back of 4WD and Sport Utility
Last I heard he was working on a 14" travel kit that used new upper and lower
arms
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 01:17:47 +0000
From: Brendan
Subject: Downey/Rancho 11" travel lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:58:17 -0800 (PST)
> From: Jonathan Albrecht
> Subject: Downey/Rancho 10" travel lift
> To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>
> Here's what I'm wondering: I don't really mind lowering the diff (I've
> only hit mine on something once or twice, and the skidplate took all of
> the beating, not the diff), so would it be possible to use the standard
> Rancho 3" lift kit, minus bump stop extensions, plus downey upper ball
> joints, and plus longer travel shocks. Seems like this would work, and
> since angles are stock, you get 4wd on the highway (which is where I use
> 4wd the most anyway). The only real problem is that you still couldn't
> run larger tires, but you have that same problem with the downey kit
> anyway.
>
> Jonathan Albrecht
> albr9619@uidaho.edu
> http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
I still believe that one will run into the dilemma of breaking
expensive parts. With the bump stop extensions removed, the increased
travel ability will exceed the travel capacity of the stock CV shafts.
Under compression, the tripod joint will smack against the inside of the
tulip joint. And if extension isn't limited, the boot will probably rip
apart and the tripod joint will fall out and/or break. It is the
function of those bumpstops to limit the travel near to that of stock.
I think I like the idea of the Downey/Rancho system (except the Downey
shafts, I think I'd rather have the WCOR shafts), but would like to
actually ride/drive in a vehicle with the setup (to see if it was really
worth it). I also like the idea of keeping the differential in the
stock location. To me this would be advantageous because of increased
clearance and strength (overleveraging). Although I know several guys
around here that run Trailmaster kits that drive pretty wild, and they
haven't had any problems. So why don't you buy the system so you can
tell me how it works? :-)
If you notice any discrepancies, please let me know.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:13:45 -0700
From: "Todd and Terry"
Subject: Trailmaster IFS lift
To:
Well, here's the deal. I have an opportunity to get a 4" Trailmaster IFS
lift for my 87 pickup. The guy wanting to get rid of it wants to swap me
for the items needed to bring his truck back to stock height (shocks, rear
ubolts, steering arm, idler arms, bumpstops). He will give me all the lift
brackets, rear blocks (yuck), steering components and shocks.
My questions are: Does anybody on the list use a Trailmaster lift? Pros
and cons?
Looks pretty easy to install, is it? ( I've done clutches, head gaskets,
timing chains, motor swaps, lockers, etc.) Opinion? good move or bad
move?
Thanks
Todd
87 Toyota 4X4, EZ Lockers F/R, 30-11.50-15 TSL SX's, 15X8 AR 26's,
RS 5000's, Ramsey front bumper, Custom Nerfs, Custom rear bumper,
Custom body by Sierra Nevada.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 08:34:37 -0400
From: Bob Bascom
Subject: Trailmaster IFS lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I have a procomp 4" lift on my '87 4Runner. I think the Pro-comps and
the trail masters are exactly the same. I know a guy who has a procomp
and we can't find the difference. Any way the lift was real easy to
install it took we a little over a day and I am by no means a major
mechanic. My only dislike is the axle wrap I get but my frind is
building me a torque rod. Watch the sway bar drop brackets when i pus
the truck in fourwheel drive after putting in the lift it beat the !@#@#
out of the zirq fitting on the drive shaft so I had to lower the shart a
little more using a couple of washers. Hope that helped sorry about the
length.
Ryan Bascom
bascom@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:56:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Trailmaster IFS lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-04-27 20:17:32 EDT, you write:
>
> Well, here's the deal. I have an opportunity to get a 4" Trailmaster IFS
> lift for my 87 pickup. The guy wanting to get rid of it wants to swap me
> for the items needed to bring his truck back to stock height (shocks, rear
> ubolts, steering arm, idler arms, bumpstops). He will give me all the
lift
> brackets, rear blocks (yuck), steering components and shocks.
> My questions are: Does anybody on the list use a Trailmaster lift? Pros
> and cons?
> Looks pretty easy to install, is it? ( I've done clutches, head gaskets,
> timing chains, motor swaps, lockers, etc.) Opinion? good move or bad
> move?
>
> Thanks
> Todd
> 87 Toyota 4X4, EZ Lockers F/R, 30-11.50-15 TSL SX's, 15X8 AR 26's,
> RS 5000's, Ramsey front bumper, Custom Nerfs, Custom rear bumper,
> Custom body by Sierra Nevada.
>
I have the ProComp, but it should not be too different. You should plan on a
FULL day minimum. It will probably take you all of a weekend. Get a friend
or two to help you "whitewash the fence". Why don't you call the company and
they will probably mail/fax you the complete instructions. I would not
attempt to install it without reading them first, Unless you feel real
adventurous. It can be done without the destructions, but it will be a big
hassle.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:12:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Trailmaster IFS lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Well, here's the deal. I have an opportunity to get a 4" Trailmaster IFS
> lift for my 87 pickup. The guy wanting to get rid of it wants to swap me
> for the items needed to bring his truck back to stock height (shocks, rear
> ubolts, steering arm, idler arms, bumpstops). He will give me all the lift
Actually, the trailmaster kit re-uses the stock steering and idler arms.
It just uses a different bracket at the knuckle, so in effect everything
above the diff (upper a-arm, all steering components) are left alone.
Honestly lifts like this are kinda like a big complicated block
lift, though I think you may gain at least an extra inch or so of
travel, because at least on our Superlift kit (very similar design), the
bump stop extenions were not a full 4" longer, even though the drop down
brackets were more like 5" lower (for a suposedly 4" lift kit, and no,
we never did measure it to see how much lift it really gave).
What you will need to give him, are your steering knuckle adapter things
(that the upper a-arm and steering linkages attach too), your u-bolts,
shocks, and...that's about it. Oh yeah, I should probably say that you
should never re-use u-bolts (even though I always have, YMMV).
> brackets, rear blocks (yuck), steering components and shocks.
> My questions are: Does anybody on the list use a Trailmaster lift? Pros
> and cons?
I don't own one, I talked to someone who's really into Toyota's, and he
swears that it's heavier duty than the pro-comp stage I--which I've
never heard anything bad about. I'm hoping to go for a Rancho 3"
because it give more travel, has more room for stock rims (a trailmaster
*might* have room for stock rims, but it's very tight), and gives a
lower center of gravity.
> Looks pretty easy to install, is it? ( I've done clutches, head gaskets,
> timing chains, motor swaps, lockers, etc.) Opinion? good move or bad
> move?
Yeah, sounds like you can do it. Make sure you have a good jack or two,
a couple of good tall jack stands. You will need to press out the
steering ball joints, and upper A arm ball joints. A pickle fork
wouldn't budge ours, but sometimes it's enough. A pitman arm puller
works great for the upper A-arm ball joint.
Oh, you will also need to trim off or bend out the corner of the old
place that the front A-arm brace used to bolt up to (it hits the diff).
You might also need to trim your bumpstops for shock clearance too, so
be sure to check that out before you go 4xing.
Good luck,
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:25:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: IFS Torsion Bars...
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> 1. My plan was to install the 2" blocks on the rear, per normal install
> 2. Then, (if I can find it /figure it out---and if you can coherently
> describe where and how to, please do) I plan to jack up the torsion bars
> about 1.5" --not 2" considering they probably couldn't handle it, and the
> rear is sagging about .5", so this would level it off.
Sounds okay to me. If you run the hubs locked during the winter you may
only want to go up an 1", but that's just MHO.
> 3. My problem is that I cannot afford to replace the shocks at the same time.
> It does have a good (great riding) set of Monroe GasMagnums (the road sensing
> ones) at the stock length. Can I do this lift using the Monroe (stock sized)
> shocks?
The front will be fine. In fact, longer shocks wouldn't work right (for
the front) anyway, since the bump stops for droop and compression are
still in the same place.
But, I don't know about the rear. I think you could get away with it
(we have on other trucks before), but the best way to find out, would be
to unhook the shock and see if it will extend enough. If you really
need some shocks, my friend back home has some 'Elimintator' (generic)
shocks that came with his 4" rear blocks. I'm sure he'd sell 'em cheap,
but shipping might be a pain from Alaska. I'd check around, I'd bet
someone on this list has some they'd sell cheap.
> Can the torsion bars (stock I assume) handle that type of cranking up? Or
> should I just go w/ a 1" lift (I can trade to get it)?
Yeah, we've run them for +/- a year with 1.5"+ cranking and big 'ol
tires. They're fine. Keep in mind that it will ride stiffer cranked up
(the a-arms get's effectively shorter when you crank it up), but believe
me, then HD torsion bars make it worse--speaking from experience, and
from what I've learned in school. The main advantage to the HD bars, is
that they don't have to twist as much to hold the truck up as the stock
ones, and so they're under less stress. This is good for t-bars, but
harder on the driver/pass! Well, that's assuming your not bottoming out
badly with stock bars.
> How does one go about cranking the torsion bars up (please feel free to make
> references to Chilton's--I can't even locate the damn things under the truck.
OK, that's not too hard. Find the upper a-arm. Look at the back end of
it, and you'll see a bar going back parallel to the frame. That's the
t-bar. Follow it back, and you'll find a cam thing-a-ma-jig. You will
see a bolt running through the mess (perpendicular to the ground), with
two nuts on it (btw, it may only look like one nut, but there are two).
So put a wrench on the bolt, and loosen the outer nut. Next, tighten
down the inner nut. When you've got them to the height you want, snug
down that upper bolt. Our's took about 20 some odd turns to get about
1.5" or so. Oh yeah, you should get an alignment after you do this. In
fact, (this may be easier) you could just do the rear lift yourself, and
then take the truck down to the alignment shop, and ask for an
alignment, and ask them to adjust the torsion bars too. Some shop's
will do that without charging extra. Les Schwab didn't charge us
anyway.
> also, it's a relatively stock 87 Toy X-Tra cab longbed EFI Turbo
Wow, an x-cab long box (never seen one of those before!). This is a 4x,
right? Say, how do you like that turbo?
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:14:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: IFS Torsion Bars...
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-05-02 20:13:07 EDT, you write:
> 3. My problem is that I cannot afford to replace the shocks at the same
time.
> It does have a good (great riding) set of Monroe GasMagnums (the road
> sensing
> ones) at the stock length. Can I do this lift using the Monroe (stock
sized)
> shocks?
Whether not you can use the stock shocks depends on how you use your truck.
If you drive it on the street mostly, or you do not go places that require
much articulation, they should be OK - temporarily. As for cost of shocks,
they are not that expensive. You say you cannot afford them, but a pair
should only run you about $40 to $50. Your local parts store usually carries
shocks for lift applications(you will have to ask around).
> Can the torsion bars (stock I assume) handle that type of cranking up? Or
> should I just go w/ a 1" lift (I can trade to get it)?
> How does one go about cranking the torsion bars up (please feel free to
make
> references to Chilton's--I can't even locate the damn things under the
truck.
>
>
> Any help is greatly appreciated!!
> also, it's a relatively stock 87 Toy X-Tra cab longbed EFI Turbo
>
Yes the tortion bars can handle that much lift. I have not really looked at
the adjustments, so I won't try to tell you how to do that.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 18:26:02 EDT
From: jeff4cars@juno.com (Jeffrey Samler D Samler)
Subject: Trailmaster IFS lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Well, here's the deal. I have an opportunity to get a 4" Trailmaster IFS
lift for my 87 pickup. The guy wanting to get rid of it wants to swap me
for the items needed to bring his truck back to stock height (shocks,
rear
ubolts, steering arm, idler arms, bumpstops). He will give me all the
lift
brackets, rear blocks (yuck), steering components and shocks.
My questions are: Does anybody on the list use a Trailmaster lift? Pros
and cons?
Looks pretty easy to install, is it? ( I've done clutches, head gaskets,
timing chains, motor swaps, lockers, etc.) Opinion? good move or bad
move?
I have a 4 in. Trailmaster lift on my truck and I like it a lot. The
ride was very hard at first but after the first few hundred miles it
softened up quite a bit and is perfectly livable now. It also is very
stable going around turns and on the highway, even above 70 mph. The
only negative I have seen, and it might not be the lifts fault is if you
are going slow and you turn the wheel all the way and the suspension has
to flex, it makes a creaking noise sometimes. Does anybody know what
this is? Is it nothing to worry about?
jeff4cars@juno.com 1989 SR5 4X4 V6 Extra Cab PU
Jeff 4 in. Trailmaster lift, 3 in. body lift
35 in. Dunlops with American Racing
Rims, GTS all the way around
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 18:40:34 -0400
From: "R. W. 'Butch' Stiles"
Subject: Trailmaster IFS lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> I have a 4 in. Trailmaster lift on my truck and I like it a lot. The
> ride was very hard at first but after the first few hundred miles it
> softened up quite a bit and is perfectly livable now. It also is very
> stable going around turns and on the highway, even above 70 mph. The
> only negative I have seen, and it might not be the lifts fault is if you
> are going slow and you turn the wheel all the way and the suspension has
> to flex, it makes a creaking noise sometimes. Does anybody know what
> this is? Is it nothing to worry about?
Jeff,
That creaking noise is the steering stops on the knuckle rubbing
against the A-arm as the suspension flexes. You're getting
metal-to-metal contact which a little grease would help to alleviate. It
has nothing whatever to do with your lift.
- --
Butch Stiles
rokitman@erols.com
Just as it says, "Rocket Man"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Trailmaster IFS lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> are going slow and you turn the wheel all the way and the suspension has
> to flex, it makes a creaking noise sometimes. Does anybody know what
> this is? Is it nothing to worry about?
Sounds like you just need to put a dab of grease on the steering stops.
There are two per wheel, right up next to the lower wishbone, on the
knuckle. You can also get new stops from toyota, they're not that
expensive I hear.
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 23:29:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Trailmaster IFS lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-05-03 19:28:30 EDT, you write:
> > are going slow and you turn the wheel all the way and the suspension has
> > to flex, it makes a creaking noise sometimes. Does anybody know what
> > this is? Is it nothing to worry about?
>
> Sounds like you just need to put a dab of grease on the steering stops.
> There are two per wheel, right up next to the lower wishbone, on the
> knuckle. You can also get new stops from toyota, they're not that
> expensive I hear.
> __
> Jonathan Albrecht
It might be worse than that. I looked the other day and found that I had
broken two of those stops off. I guess that explains the creaking even
better...
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 May 97 13:23:28 CST
From: "Brian Gallus"
Subject: Rancho Skid Plate.
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Does anyone know where I can get a new front skid plate that will
work
> with the 3" Rancho IFS lift?
Use the stock one! I have the Rancho kit on my 87 with the stock
plate - it bolts up fine. In fact, there are instructions in the kit
as to how to install the skid plate.
I'll admit, it doesn't look as good as stock. The bottom of the skid
plate now sits lower than the lower a-arm mounts, but you get used to
the appearance.
A custom one that continues underneath the differential would be best!
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 11:10:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Superlift.
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> I have been doing some research on some IFS suspension lifts
> and I seem to like Superlift. I have an 88 4Runner SR5 V6. If anyone
> who has a superlift suspension or that would like to fill me in on the
> pros and cons and what it is like to install it, I would greatly
> appreciate it. Also is there an advantage in getting the superlink
> system or is that just a waste of money and I heard that I have to get
> new wheels if I decide to get the lift.
We've installed the Superlift (standard) kit on my friend's truck. We
picked it over the Pro-Comp stage II, because it has a once piece
crossmembers (front and rear), a skidplate, SS brake lines (front only),
and a big skid plate..for about the same price. I have not seen the
pro-comp stage II in person, so I can't really compare how HD the
brackets are. At any rate, the superlift kit seems to be about the
beefiest one around. But it wasn't without problems. The biggest prob,
was that they drilled the slots for the lower wishbone bolts too small.
Instead of waiting until Monday, calling them up, and getting them to
send replacements (what we definitely should have done), we hand filed
the holes to fit. This is not a very good way to do it, cause it has to
be totally smooth, or else they won't be able to give it an alignment
(in fact, they'll be breaking bolts, and stripping those eccentric cam
washers left and right). We had to pull the lower wishbones, and
re-grind the brackets.. Twice. BTDT.
Otherwise...what else. Oh, well on the bump stop drop downs, a few of
the bolt holes weren't tapped correctly, so we've only got like 2 or 3
bump stops hooked up right now. And the last little annoying bit, is
the way the skidplate attaches. If you use there hardware, you somehow
need to put and hold the nut for the skidplate inside the crossmember.
The only way to do this, is with the lower wishbones removed, but to do
that, you pretty much need to remove the plate. The fix is to drill a
hole through both sides of the crossmember, and then use two long bolts
(which we haven't done yet). And the last problem (not really their
fault) is that you need to grind down the edge of the bump stops for
shock clearance. For some reason, both me and my friend read all the
instructions, but never saw that. A few weeks later we notice this huge
dent in the side of one of his shocks, found that the bump-stop was
hitting, and then saw the little sentence about grinding that down in
the instructions. Bummer.
Over all, it's a decent kit, but FWIW, the alignment shop (Les Schwab)
seems to think superlift is crap, not due to design, but mostly do to
quality control (or lack of it). So, if you want a 4"+ lift, I'd
probably have to recommend the Pro-Comp stage II. One nice thing about
this kit, is even though it doesn't have 1 piece lower crossmembers, it
does have large braces running off of them to the bump-stop mounts,
which makes them quite strong. And besides, I've never heard of someone
having alignment problems with the stage I (which doesn't have these
braces). The Trailmaster, FWIW, is slightly beefier than the stage I,
but very similar (maybe identical??) in design.
About your stock wheels. YMMV! The literature says they won't fit, and
at least by eye-balling it, I'd say the won't. But, some do run stock
wheels, so I guess maybe, in some cases they do fit. Maybe it's just
too close a fit for the company to freely admit that they fit. The
reason that they might not, is because the upper whishbone stays in the
same place as stock, but everything below it gets moved down, including
the wheel. So, with the upper a arm about 4" or so higher (in relation
to the wheel), it's a very close fit. This is why rancho and superlift
superlink can use stock rims (new upper a-arm).
Hope this helps,
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:15:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Superlift.
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Jon, the walking 'cyclopedia of knowledge.
Glad somebody thinks so.. Man, I wish.
> BTW what does BTDT mean.
Been there done that. And I did. Pulling a-arms and grinding 3/16"
steel parts with small wood files sucks.
> What is the best IYHO lift for the Tacoma??
I dunno much about the Tacoma (but that's not gonna stop me from
answering!). I'd say wait for the stage II pro comp. The Trailmaster
has a lot of height, but it looked weird. I haven't seen a picture of
one for a long time, but it seems like they ditch the upper a-arm in
favor of some kind of strut setup (like on a
sidekick/tracker/pathfinder/toyota CAMRY ect) The pro comp looked good.
It looks like it has nice beefy one piece drop down brackets, but it
seems like it uses spacers instead of coils.. which should be fine
anyway.. I dunno, it looks 'fine' to me, but without any experience
whatsoever, I just don't know for sure. Someone (I thought it was you)
mentioned they might have a stage II coming out eventually, and I'd
imagine that would be a good one. I don't know what Rancho and Black
Diamond are doing/going to do, but those might be good too (assuming
they ever make one). Did you see the black diamond lift for...um..I
think it was the new ford (or maybe it was on that chevy that 4wheeler
is building up). It looked real good, and actually had a bracket that
attaches to the lower crossmember, that can be tightened up, kinda like
cables on a bridge or something. It looked pretty tough.
Anway, I'd say, if you want to get something now, probably the Pro-comp,
if you can wait/afford more, get the stage II. YMMV and all that bs
too.
|From what I can tell, the stage I won't increase travel much if any.
But with like what is it.. 7.5"(?) travel you're doing a lot better than
us t-bar IFS guys!
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 May 97 09:01:15 CST
From: "Brian Gallus"
Subject: Superlift vs. Pro-Comp
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
David Wrote:
I have been doing some research on some IFS suspension lifts
and I
seem to like Superlift. I have an 88 4Runner SR5 V6. If anyone who
has a
superlift suspension or that would like to fill me in on the pros and
cons and
what it is like to install it, I would greatly appreciate it. Also is
there an
advantage in getting the superlink system or is that just a waste of
money and I
heard that I have to get new wheels if I decide to get the lift.
************
Don't get the superlink - the difference in price (last I checked) was
more than the cost of some aluminum wheels. If your heart is set on
Superlift, I'd have to recommend stage one, as Jonathan stated.
My .02 though? Go with the Pro-comp stage 2. Bit more expensive, but
the strongest thing I've seen for IFS. I personally run the Rancho
lift, and I really like it, but you realistically will only get 2.5-3"
of lift. A member of the our club has the Pro-Comp kit and it looks,
and from what I hear, rides excellent. Again, it's VERY strong.
I have to disagree with Jonathan on his assessment of Trailmaster.
I've seen a number of trucks with this kit installed and have heard of
some significant problems. The biggest is that the new mounts (lower
a-arm and cross-member) flex too much. I know of a guy (many years
ago) who was always pulling his front driveshaft apart when off
road... The flex in the front end allowed the front wheels to move
forward enough to pull the slip joint apart. I've also heard they are
hard to align and keep aligned.
BKG
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 11:34:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Superlift vs. Pro-Comp
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> My .02 though? Go with the Pro-comp stage 2. Bit more expensive, but
> the strongest thing I've seen for IFS. I personally run the Rancho
> lift, and I really like it, but you realistically will only get 2.5-3"
> of lift. A member of the our club has the Pro-Comp kit and it looks,
> and from what I hear, rides excellent. Again, it's VERY strong.
If lift height isn't a concern (ie, you don't care if it's 2" or 4" or
whatever) which seems like the better kit to you? Pro-Comp stage II or
Rancho? Which looks heavier duty? I just ordered the Rancho cause I
want more wheel travel. Also, I'm trying to keep the 'ol C of G as low
as possible (I've got one of those 'top heavy' 4runners), and I like
the stock rims and want to be able to run them in the winter.
> I have to disagree with Jonathan on his assessment of Trailmaster.
> I've seen a number of trucks with this kit installed and have heard of
> some significant problems. The biggest is that the new mounts (lower
> a-arm and cross-member) flex too much. I know of a guy (many years
You know, I've heard the same thing--but only once. Another guy has the
trailmaster and he swears it's better than the pro-comp (stage I)..so I
dunno. Pro-comp is probably better though.
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 May 97 10:48:26 CST
From: "Brian Gallus"
Subject: Rancho vs Procomp
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Jonathan Wrote:
If lift height isn't a concern (ie, you don't care if it's 2" or 4" or
whatever) which seems like the better kit to you? Pro-Comp stage II
or
Rancho? Which looks heavier duty? I just ordered the Rancho cause I
want more wheel travel. Also, I'm trying to keep the 'ol C of G as
low
as possible (I've got one of those 'top heavy' 4runners), and I like
the stock rims and want to be able to run them in the winter.
*********
I have a Runner too!
To be honest, I really can't answer that question - I don't know if
the Pro-Comp lift allows the use of stock wheels.
I REALLY like my Rancho kit. I'm running Rancho front with Downey TBs
and Downey rear springs with stock overload. RS 9000's front and rear
with NO sway bar (more later). I have a 2" body lift with 33*12.5
tires on 3.5" offset 15*8 wheels. Oh, also have 2" longer shackles in
rear to level the truck.
My recommendation would be the Rancho front with the Downey springs,
longer shackles and RS9000's for the 3" lift. I have the 2" lift
shocks and wish that I had kept the 3" (lift) shocks (sent to me by
mistake).
Works great on and off road - well, as good off-road as can be
expected with IFS. Travel is a bit more than stock (I'm NOT running
the 33" tire kit from Rancho) but I don't know if it's really the 8"
advertised.
I've heard the PC is relatively easy to install, as was the Rancho. I
like the ability to return my truck to stock if need be - This is the
second truck this kit has been on - Took it off of my 86 in January
when I bought the 87.
Hope that helps!
bkg
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 03:00:55 -0400
From: Bob Bascom
Subject: Rancho vs Procomp
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
You can use the stock wheels and 31 10.5 tires with the procomp any
wider tires and you will rub the upper A- Arms. For wider tires you
have to get a different offset. I have the stage one on my '87 4Runner
it went in real easy and I like it alot
Ryan Bascom
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Christmas in May
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Well, I came back from the local pick and pull only to find a pile of
big boxes in my room. YES!! This is only the first of three big
orders, but anyway.. (I'm happy)
Okay, one of the big dollar things that I just got was the Rancho IFS 3"
suspension kit. I looked through the instructions and parts, and here
are some of my initial impressions:
It's heavy. The box weighs about 118 pounds.
Overall build quality of components looks okay, parts are about 1/4"
thick, and powder coated red. The rest of them are zink coated
goldish--except for the rear brace/truss which is black.
The lift actually works a bit differently than I thought it did (or at
least I think it does--please correct me if I'm wrong here!)
It looks as though the lower whishbones aren't actually lowered at all.
Instead, they lower the differential, and replace the upper a-arms. The
braces under the a-arm mounts are just that; they don't lower the lower
a-arms. I'm not real hot about this idea of running the lower wishbones
(stock) at such high angle..but I guess it should work fine. I was
hoping to crank in a bit over 3" (I ordered 4-5" rear springs)..but I
may just end up with a bunch of rake.. Oh well, better than sag..I
guess!
Another thing I wasn't exactly aware of--this kit still only allows for
31" tires (or at least that's what the instructions say). They do sell
a kit that lowers the bump stops, so you can use 33's. I think I'll
just go for a body lift instead. Maybe 2". Hey Scott, are you going to
hang onto yours? I do know someone back home who's going to ditch his
2" body lift, so I'll probably just take that one (he wants me to help
make 39.5" boggers fit/work!!) Overall, the kit looks pretty good, but
keep in mind that if you want to run wide 33's with it, you can't get
the full advertised (7.5"?) of wheel travel.
I'm also trying to decide what to do with the rear add-a-leafs. I'm
either going to use them along with another friends 4" block to help fit
the 40's on that one guy's truck, or I might sell them to a friend with
an FJ-55. Oh yeah, the FJ-55 has 2.75" wide rear springs, would it be
safe to use these add-a-leafs on it? They're about 2.5" wide.
Or I might just sell them. I'm not sure how much to ask.. They're in
the Washington/Idaho area if you're interested.
Oh yeah, the rest of the stuff looks cool too, I can't wait to learn how
to set up diff's! (I think).
Later!
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:01:28 +0000
From: Dylan Keon & Karen Levy
Subject: IFS bump stop spacing
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Hi everyone,
Can anyone tell me about how much room I should have between my bump
stops and control arms? I have an 86 4WD pickup with no suspension
mods, and 30x9.5x15 Bridgestones on 15x8 rims. Right now I have about
1" of space between the lower arms and bump stops, and <1" between the
upper arms and bump stops, and it seems like that gives me very minimal
travel. Is this normal for stock? Just curious.
Thanks,
Dylan Keon, KA8PFC
1986 22RE 4WD SR5 longbed, 172K
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 13:39:58 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: IFS bump stop spacing
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Dylan Keon & Karen Levy wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Can anyone tell me about how much room I should have between my bump
> stops and control arms? I have an 86 4WD pickup with no suspension
> mods, and 30x9.5x15 Bridgestones on 15x8 rims. Right now I have about
> 1" of space between the lower arms and bump stops, and <1" between the
> upper arms and bump stops, and it seems like that gives me very minimal
> travel. Is this normal for stock? Just curious.
It's pretty normal, but you can gain 2-3 more inches more travel if you
go to a low profile poly urethane bumpstop. You'll need 3 pair
($2-4/pair) Eric Jonson and I (as well as others) have been using them
on out IFS trucks for a long while now, with no problems.
Scott
- --
*****************************************************
Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
88 4Runner SR5 V6
Santa Clara, CA
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:48:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: IFS bump stop spacing
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> 1" of space between the lower arms and bump stops, and <1" between the
> travel. Is this normal for stock? Just curious.
Yep, I think it is. That's what mine look like too. Keep in mind that
a stock IFS doesn't have much travel anyway, and these bump stops are
mounted way inboard of the a-arm, so 1" of travel up by the bump stop
may be as much as a few inches out by the wheel.
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 May 97 09:17:52 CST
From: "Brian Gallus"
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Overall build quality of components looks okay, parts are about 1/4"
thick, and powder coated red. The rest of them are zink coated
goldish--except for the rear brace/truss which is black.
least I think it does--please correct me if I'm wrong here!)
It looks as though the lower whishbones aren't actually lowered at all.
Instead, they lower the differential, and replace the upper a-arms.
The braces under the a-arm mounts are just that; they don't lower the
lower a-arms. I'm not real hot about this idea of running the lower
wishbones (stock) at such high angle..but I guess it should work fine.
I was hoping to crank in a bit over 3" (I ordered 4-5" rear springs)..
but I may just end up with a bunch of rake.. Oh well, better than
sag..I guess!
I think I'll just go for a body lift instead. Maybe 2".
Jonathan,
Quality of the kit is pretty good. I've been fairly impressed with
mine. You are correct, the lower A-arms are not lowered. This does
make it a bit easier to install (unless you change to Poly bushings in
the lower arms.. ugh!) and in my opinion, a bit stronger. Don't worry
about running the arms at a sever angle, it's really less than you
might think - remember, stock (on a high mile truck) a-arms are almost
parallel to the ground.. ok, at least on my 86 they are.
Anyway, The upper a-arms are longer than stock, and mount closer
inward on the frame. This allows for the lift w/o having to use a
spindle spacer. It also accounts for the extra wheel travel and the
need for thicker Torsion Bars - I hope you ordered those too!!! Best
money you could spend. The fulcrum point changes because of the
length of the a-arms so you will need to do some good cranking to get
the lift you desire out of the stock TBs. The thicker (I have downey)
make the truck ride better than my stock 86.
Go with the 2" body lift and skip the 33" tire kit! I have the same
setup and love it. Did you buy RS9000's??? Remove the sway bar, set
the 9000's on *3* and enjoy the ride.
For cranking in more lift, you will need to purchase 'low profile'
upper snubbers. I personally don't recommend the 'real low' ones
becaues the upper a-arm *MAY* hit the frame before the snubbers. I
run Downey's middle thickness set with a thick washer underneath. If
the rear sits too high, remove one of the leafs to level it... I have
a friend who did something similar to his SkyJacker springs (front)
and seems to like it.
Hmmm.. My rear a-arm brace is gray... Matches the color of the truck,
but the thing REALLY gets in the way of an oil change - Anyone know a
good way to redirect the drain plug???
Hope this helps.
BKG
Incidentally, my email address is changing - BrianGallus@Dynamark.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:36:10 -7 GMT
From: "Leo G. Divinagracia III"
Subject: dropping diff = more severe driveline angle???
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
okay, since dropping the front diff - on an IFS lift - doesn't do anything
to the transfer case, doesn't that mean the angle between the two gets
more severe? i mean take pro-lift's 4" lift, the drop brackets i see are
a big difference. does the driveline have enough 'play' to take this much?
i was planning on doing the torsion bar lift where the diff stays where it
is.
(ditto for the rear axle...)
- -----------------------
Leo G. Divinagracia III
ldivinag@csuhayward.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 23:15:41 -0400
From: Ed Ruf
Subject: dropping diff = more severe driveline angle???
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On 05:36 PM 5/9/97 GMT, Leo G. Divinagracia III wrote:
>okay, since dropping the front diff - on an IFS lift - doesn't do anything
>to the transfer case, doesn't that mean the angle between the two gets
>more severe? i mean take pro-lift's 4" lift, the drop brackets i see are
>a big difference. does the driveline have enough 'play' to take this much?
It's been a while since I put the Rancho kit in my PU, so his my be wrong.
But I thought it was a compromise between the angles on the U-joints in the
driveshaft(s) and the angle on the C-V joints in the front axles. With the
C-V joints being the more fragile of the mix.
Ed Ruf (egruf@visi.net) or for Scramjet related ??? (e.g.ruf@larc.nasa.gov)
1986 Toy 4x4 SR5 PU@122K, 3.5" Rcho susp.+RS-7ks,31x10.5 BFG-A/T,K&N
1987 Toyota SR5 4Runner @ 118K, KYB GasSprings, 30.5x9.50 Cooper Disc.
1982 Honda XL600R Thunderin' Thumper
1986 Yamaha FJ-1200SC @ 15K
2 yr old, 110#, pure bred white GSD, Kaiser Klaus III, AKC# DL569628/04
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: dropping diff = more severe driveline angle???
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> okay, since dropping the front diff - on an IFS lift - doesn't do
> anything to the transfer case, doesn't that mean the angle between the
> two gets more severe? i mean take pro-lift's 4" lift, the drop
> brackets i see are a big difference. does the driveline have enough
> 'play' to take this much?
There is actually a slip joint in the front driveshaft. It didn't give
us any problems on my friends '86 w/ the 4" Superlift kit.
> i was planning on doing the torsion bar lift where the diff stays
> where it is.
FWIW, and IMHO, I think the front driveshaft is better suited for
running at higher (than stock) angles than the cv joints..
> (ditto for the rear axle...)
Good luck on the rear! ..You plan to use gear reduction hubs or
something? ;)
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:21:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: HIKEREX@aol.com
Subject: Trailmaster susp. lift
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Just finished installing Trailmasters 4" suspension lift. It took all night
with the help of a good friend and lots of coffee. I thought I would mention
a few things in case anyone out there is interested in installing one
themselves. Its a very rugged kit. My biggest problem was the instruction
manual. Thank god for photos. Maybe my friend and I were a little tired but I
could'nt understand half of what they were telling me to do and very few
pictures corresponded to the photos next to the instruction captions. I say
captions because thats what they amounted to. Next to a photo would be a set
of instructions, one of the longest consisting of 40 words and that was a big
caption! Some of the photos could have been better. If you do not have a lift
they tell you to start with the rear springs first. I did and it was pretty
simple. once I started on the front end things started getting confusing. I
did a few things out of sequence to make it easier for me due to the fact I
was laying on a concrete floor and didn't have alot of room. Overall I am
impressed with the looks of my Tall Toy. It sits level and sports 33"BFG all
terrains. I hope to test it out soon. I'll let you know how it holds up. I am
in the process of having a mechanic install 4:88 ring and pinion gears along
with a lock right in the rear diff. I've heard to many horror stories to try
the gears myself. Besides I need to work on my reading comprehension! Any
questions E-mail me directly.
Semper-Fi
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:54:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Rancho 3"/Skyjacker 4"
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Finally, we got the lift installed on my '87 4Runner (IFS). I went with
a 3" Rancho front, and Skyjacker 4" lift rear springs, along with
RS9000's, pro-comp SS brake lines, and the rancho incab controller (for
the shocks).
The Rancho Front: Initially, I was just going to order the Rancho front
lift only (from Downey), but as it turns out, the full kit from 4WPW was
actually cheaper! So I've got some extra parts left over.. Installing
the kit wasn't really hard, but it did take some time---about a
week--though I wasn't working on it all the time. Just after work, and
on the weekends. You could say we took our time putting it on. This
lift is really different from others (like my friends Superlift) because
instead of basically dropping down the bottom half of the front
suspension, it replaces the upper a-arms and mounts, drops the diff, and
makes minor changes to the steering linkages. So in effect, it's a
whole lot like cranking up the t-bars 3" or so. The lower wishbones are
not dropped. According to rancho, this kit gives around 7.5" of travel
(versusu 4.5" stock), though I only measured about 3.5"! Of course
when I measured it, I wasn't able to compress the bump stops at all, so
I suspect there is maybe 6.5" of travel available--possibly even more.
Though it does make me wonder if the travel gain is really all that more
than say a Pro-comp (or similar) lift kit.
Another thing that's kinda interesting, is that I *had* to run the stock
bump stops. (instead of the low profile ones I bought seperate) If I
didn't, the upper a-arms hit the frame during extension. How Downey
get's 10"+ travel by using rancho a- arms and modified upper ball-joints
is beyond me--the frame limits movement before the ball joints do. I
dunno.
The installation itself wasn't too bad, but like I said before, it was
time consuming. We didn't really need any special tools, beyond a
pickel fork, but a good tranny jack would have been nice. Re-installing
the front diff was a major PITA!! Oh yeah, a couple of really good
drill bits, and a grinder makes life easier too (you have to remove part
of the old lower skidplate bracket).
Out back I went with a set of Skyjacker 4" rear springs. I had thought
about getting 2" rear springs, but I was afraid that on my 4runner they
might only give 1.5" of actual lift....and since I didn't want a
'saggin 'runner, I went for the 4"er's...which actually gave 5.5" of
lift!! So yeah, it's raked...and yeah, my headlights are only good for
about 20' in front of me...but it's starting to settle! I think it'll
look real nice if it settles another 1/2" or so. But if not...oh well,
I can always crank up the front even more (I've already got around 3.5"
up front). Overall, I like the springs. The ride is fine, and they
handle fine too. I haven't gotten a chance to see how well they flex,
but I've heard they do okay. The only real prob, is that I've got a bit
of rear u-joint vibration. It's not that bad, but I do notice it.
The RS9000's are fine, and they worked as I expected them too, no
problems/complaints there...though the incab controller is a bit...I
don't know what to call it... Well, I haven't actually installed it,
but I tried out the air-pump. It's a bit noisy (as expected I guess).
The air lines and such are all plastic (or nylon, as Rancho says), and
look like they'll work okay...but they don't look like they're worth 120
bucks or whatever it all cost. I'll let you know how it works when I
get it installed. I think I'll keep the knobs in the glove box just in
case..
Overall, everything works together pretty well, and I'm pretty happy
with how it turned out. I would like to hear to some actualy numbers
about front wheel travel of stock versus Rancho, versus, say, Pro-Comp
though. If you aren't totally interested in travel, or if you want more
lift, I'd probably have to to recommend the Pro-Comp Stage II over the
Rancho.
Oh yeah, two other things I used/added: Pro-Comp SS brake lines. These
are DOT legal and everything, and worked fine. Like my friend's
Superlift ones, they don't fit in the factory clips, so they kinda
'hang' there. Also, like the Superlift ones, the front brake lines are
way too long. Granted they're intended for a 4-5.5" lift, but these are
just way too long. They need to lop about 4-6" off of these! Same
thing with the Superlift ones (which incidentally look/fit absolutely
identically).
And the final mod (like I'm ever gonna finish): Rancho Dual exhaust.
Since we'd swapped on the Dynomax on my friend's truck (the rancho was
too loud with his header/no cat combination), he had the Rancho laying
around, so I put it on my truck too. Since it's for a pickup, I had to
remove the lower plastic panel on rear (the exhaust routes above the
spring), but otherwise it fit without problems. Sound is good, though a
bit more 'datsun-y' than my last truck. I dunno why...but anyway, it's
still cool, and like before it really makes the truck 'come alive'. I
know part of it has to do with the sound, but it just makes the truck
want to rev. Since putting it on, my shift point jumped another 1000rpm
(to 4000), and power seems better (especially between 3 or 4 grand) but
my mpg also went down.. Well, what can I say, I like that raspy snarl
that it gives when you gas it out of corners!
Oh yeah, and as usual if you have any comments/questions try to remember
to also send them to albr9619@uidaho.edu, because I'm not on the list
right now (slow computer).
later,
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:46:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Trailmaster Articulation
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-06-02 16:32:51 EDT, you write:
<< What kind of negative effects should I expect if I modify the bump stop
extensions to allow for a couple more inches of up travel? Is there more
here than what meets the eye? As it stands right now I only have about 3"
and it does not appear to be enough. I would appreciate any input.
Thanks in advance.
>>
Several things to consider. The trave at the bump stops is not the entire
amount your tire will travel. I considered shortening the spacers for the
bumpstops that came with my ProComp lift (I think that part is the same as
yours), but I am still figuring it out. I would really look into how much
more travel the CV joints can take. I am sure the lift manufacturers hade
good reasons for replicating the stock travel limitations. I would say just
go with the low profile bumpstops that several places offer. If you still
want more, I am considering cutting and rewelding the spacers to get a *wee*
bit more compression. I will be doing this very conservatively, as more
travel is not wirth serious parts breakage.
Also, The travel in my truck is mainly coming from the rear, and I try to get
the most out of it.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 11:26:04 -0500
From: "Brian J. Schmidt"
Subject: Trailmaster Articulation
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
The main thing you have to remember...most IFS kits raise a vehicle...not
provide more suspension travel...by modifing the bumpstops to provide
better articulation...you run the risk of overextending th front half
shafts...not to mention puting the CV joints at precarious angles...just a
word to the wise...be happy with what you have or redo it with the
Downey/Rancho "11 travel kit...only about $1800 for the whole ball of
wax...or a second choice would be to keep your trailmaster kit and at a
later date add the Downey/Rancho kit...Hope this helps...
Brian
- ------------------------------------
Brian J. Schmidt
4x4 Forum
brians@black-knight.com
http://www.black-knight.com
- -------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 14:32:28 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: Torsion Bars
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Well, I have made the decision to raise my IFS truck a little for better
wheel travel (all of this "articulation talk" has me all excited) and
would like opinions from those who have used the Downey 26MM bars. I
plan to adjust the bars to gain about an inch more of height but wanted
to upgrade to a bigger bar as my wheel/tire combo is fairly heavy
(American racing steel rims/32" BFG A/Ts soon to be M/Ts). I am also
running KYB shocks all all four corners. I really like their resistance
to sway and crosswinds (I have a shell).
Thinking back about ten years, I can remember when "taller was better"
and wheel travel was an after thought. At the time my buddy had an '85
short bed SR5. We added a three inch body and four inch suspension lift
(I belive the springs were Chevrolet leaves). Talk about a stiff ride,
and axle articulation, NO WAY. Of course, at the time we did both lifts
and a tire swap in one weekend in his garage. The only problem was the
truck was too tall to get OUT of the garage Sunday afternoon. A quick
swap back to the OEM tires/rims aired-down to about 5 psi. solved the
problem...Duh.
Sorry for the long posting.
Anyways, thanks in advance for any suggestions/recommendations.
Jim
- --
Jim Brink 1986 Standard Bed 4X4/22R
Toyota/ASE Certified Technician 135,000 Miles
brinkjm@earthlink.net 32" BFG All-Terrain T/As
Stock 4.10 gears
Rear Lock-Right (TRD)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 14:48:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: Torsion Bars
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Well, I have made the decision to raise my IFS truck a little for better
> wheel travel (all of this "articulation talk" has me all excited) and
> would like opinions from those who have used the Downey 26MM bars. I
> plan to adjust the bars to gain about an inch more of height but wanted
The larger bars will limit you static articulation by about 1" but I still
like them better than the stock bars.
Chris Geiger 93 4Runner http://geiger.mcl.ucsb.edu/offroad.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 15:18:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jimmy Tom
Subject: Torsion Bars
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Jim,
I was thinking about upgrading also and this is what I managed to unearth
in my research:
Donahue Racing in Orange County, CA recommended using the Sway-A-Way 300M
bars...super beefy, and great for pre-running. So I goes to me local 4WPW
and had them look up the price. It seems as though "300M" not only means
the diameter -- 30.0mm -- but also the price --$300! Egads!
So I talk to Fabtech racing in Fullerton, CA and they recommend the
Sway-A-Way regular mini-truck bars....26.0 mm. They also use it on their
Class 7s pre-runner (2wd). I think they're in the neighborhood of 170
clams.
Then I visit Downey and they show me some pre-runners in their parking
lot. All had their own w/ about one to two inches cranked in. They said
things remained soft, but then again, I noticed that the truck had Doestch
Tech MV-12's on 'em.
Whew, now that I got that "publish or perish" reserch anxiety out of me, I
think I'll play some more hooky from school and work on the truck.
Jimmy Tom @ hsc.usc.edu
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:28:11 -0700
From: "Michael Medart"
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #236
To:
On my '88 X-Tra Cab I bought and installed the Downey bars and ran
32'' BFG M/T's also. I cranked in about an inch and a half of lift
(and then, of course, had the front end re-aligned). To my utter
horror the truck rode like it had Rancho 9000's set on 5-PLUS! In
other words, terrible. BUT, that only lasted for a couple hundred
miles. All of a sudden they "broke" in and the ride turned out to be
plusher than with the stock bars (which resulted in BETTER
articulation, IMHO). Don't forget to put in a set of low-profile
bumpstops, too.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Michael Medart, Ventura, CA bigblue@anacapa.net
1988 Toyota 4x4 X-Tra Cab V-6, Rancho/Downey
lift , 4.88 gears, Detroit E-Z locker, ARB Air Locker
Rancho RS 9000's w/remote, Con-Ferr shackles/
skid plates and roof rack , 33" BFG Muds. RTI: 651
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:56:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Rancho 3"/Skyjacker 4"--update
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I've had my rancho 3" IFS lift and skyjacker 4" rear springs on my 1987
4runner for about a week or so now, so I thought I'd tell you how it's
doing.
Everything is going fine, and I still like the setup. My rear springs
have sagged a small amount (1/4"?), but my truck still has lots of rake
(somehere around 2.5"). With stock torsion bars, I can get just a
little over 3.5" of lift up front--any more, and the adjustment cam
bottom's against the tube where the parking brake cables go through.
Ride and handling--It's stiffer than it used to be. It's not real bad,
but it definately is stiffer. I've got the RS9000's, so you can adjust
it somewhat, but regardless, it's still a bit stiffer tha before.
Personally, I think it's fine--probably about right, but just thought
I'd mention that. Oh, and that reminds me of something else--my
RS9000's. On my friends totally stock truck, it seemed like the range
of adjustment was larger. For instance, '1' fealt like total mush, '2',
like stock mushy shocks, '3' was about right, '4 was stiff, like
RS5000's, and '5' was just about solid. On mine, it's kinda stiff on
'1' (mostly do to my springs/t-bar settings, though it's not all that
bouncy either), and on five it is stiffer, but it doesn't feel as
incredibly stiff as his did. When they were off the truck adjusting
them made a huge difference (when I moved them by hand). I imagine that
'five' doesn't feel as stiff because my truck's kinda tall (well, not
*that* tall...but...) and 'one' is kinda stiff because the springs are
sorta stiff. I'd still buy them again though (if you're wondering).
Oh...and guess what I did today. It took a bit of convincing, but I
talked my bud into lending me his 36's (in trade for my 30's) for the
afternoon. Heh, heh. Wow. It was pretty cool up on 36's! (swampers
btw). Now a few of you are probably wondering how I managed to cram
those things on my truck with only a few inches of lift, and stock
height bump stops (I'm still waiting for my '33" tire, bumpstop kit from
rancho). Let's just say it was a close fit! I could only turn the
wheel about a turn or less before they would bite into the fenders,
bad--and that's sitting in the garage--not flexed out, and not moving!
Well, they looked so cool, I just had to try it out anyway. I pulled
off my mud flaps, and cranked up the t-bars *all* the way (which was
probably only like a 1/4" more tops before the cam on the pass side
bottomed out). Then, I backed it out of the garage, my friends piled
in, and we were off!! First thing I noticed, was how much they rubbed.
I had to be really careful. Can you say 'wide corners'? It actually
did okay though. And the plastic inner liner made a good warning noise
so I'd know not to turn any farther.
Driving with the 36's was actually kinda backwards from how I was
expecting it to be. Sure I've driven them on my friend's truck, but his
truck is so different, the clutch is so much lighter, and the engine
drives so differntly with the weber/header/big exhaust (real touchy).
Anyway, I was pretty surprised how much it fealt the same as before (and
simlar to my friend's too). Taking off from a stop was fine--heck, I
hardly thought about it even. The only real difference, is that you
stay in first a lot longer. After that, it's pretty much the same, only
you use a gear lower than you usually would (4th is like overdrive with
those tires). But where I noticed the difference was on the highway.
And sure the right gears would help, but I'm not sure how much.
Honestly though, it didn't matter much if I was in 3rd, 4th or
5th--after 45mph it was just plain outta power (that's 45 on the speedo,
actually like 55mph and 60 on the speedo is darn near 75mph). So 1st
and 2nd were fine, 3rd was alright, but once you were going at highway
speeds, it just get's kinda gutless. I found myself once with it
floored in 3rd, and not really accelerating at all. So I put it in 4th,
and let off the gas, and it held the speed. I tried 5th too..but it
would usually slow down after a bit.
So yeah, the 36's were fine, but I'm not sure If I'd want to run
something like that when I go back down south, where I have to drive 90
miles just to get to a decent sized town.
In both offroading and looks though, the 36's were down right
incredible. They dig, and dig and dig! If you're careful, they float
great, and no matter what, they just work great! My truck fealt darn
near unstoppable. All I had to do, was point it in the direction give
it some gas (well, give it all the gas I could) and it'd go there. Heck
even in 2wd it was pretty good. In 2hi it would bog some, and in
4hi...well It'd bog a lot. Now in 4low, it was great. Not low enough
for rocks and that sort of thing, but perfect for blasting around mud
holes and climbing hills. And like I said before, it looked great! The
tires just barely fit under the body, which made them look even bigger.
And wider.
But...they did end up taking a bite out of one of my fenders. At first,
the inner liners would hit the tire first, and I had a real good idea
when to stop turning. But after a while the tire sucked the liners up
and they would just constantly rub on the top half of the tires (reminds
me of when we used to put playing cards in the spokes of our bikes when
I was younger). With them *always* rubbing against the tire it was too
late if I ever heard the 'other' rubbing sound. And yeah, I did hear
it.. It's not too bad, but I did bend up the pass side about 1/2" or
maybe even a whole inch. I dunno, I guess I can bend it back. ;)
And back to reality--I get my 15x10's this week! I'm gonna give some
33's a try (old ones) before I buy anything though. And I still don't
know how much body lift I want to give it...
Also, I just took the last picture in my roll, so those should be
developed by tuesday. Hopefully those pict's will be up by next week or
so (thanks a lot to craig for volunteering his scanner and time!)
Later, (oh yeah if you have any question's ect, please send them to
albr9619@uidaho.edu if you can, thanks)
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:41:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: Used lift for trade? (LONG)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> << I am looking to replace the ProComp 4" stage II lift on my truck with a
> Rancho 2.5" lift. If there is someone out there that has a used Rancho
> could you tell me why?
After running the Rubicon trail last week I learned a few things. I took a
long look under my truck after the trail and found that I had damaged the
front toyota crossmember by hitting it on rocks. I also hit the rear Diff
and put a small scratch on the rear drive shaft. There are also 2 small
scratches on the transfer case skid and some large scratches on my custom
rocker gards (but that is why I made them). The frame of the truck never
touched a rock on the entire trip!. I run the front torsion bars a little
low because the front lift is just too high. If I did not have the lift my
front diff would have been 2" higher because I would have turned up the
bars. The parts I hit on the trail were the parts not lifted by the lift
kit. I do think the lift helped me in a few spots but it's not as
important as I once thought it was and I remember 3 times on the trail
where I wish I was not as tall as I was. Other problems with the lift: my
wife hates getting into the truck with it so high, The front drive shaft
is too low now and has a bit of vibration if used at speeds above 40 MPH
and I am worried about the rear shaft angle and the abuse I am doing the
the U joints. At pismo beach (I do most of my wheeling in sand) I never
need to stop and dig myself out because I am at a loss for traction but at
least once per trip I dig sand because I am worried I have put the truck
in a situation where I am worried that if I go further it may roll over. I
did not have this befor the lift (Scott Wilson saw me do this on our last
trip). Then there is the loss of 2 MPG on the highway just from the lift.
So my plan now is to remove the lift and 33" tires and install a set of
32" BFG muds. I will continue to use the 26MM torsion bars and in the rear
I will use the Downey 1.5" 20% over springs
If you want to run 35" tires than this lift and a 2" body lift is the way
to go. For 33" tires a 2" lift is all you need and for 32" tires you only
need 1.5" of lift.
Some day I may buy me an '85 truck, cut off the frame behind the rear
springs build a custom wood bed in the back just to hold tool boxes and
put a set of 35 tires under it.
PS AJ, are you still using those Downey springs I sold you?
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 30 Jul 1997 19:03:12 -0000
From: abb@engr.uark.edu
Subject: lift
To: SThrill@aol.com
well i have the same truck in xtra cab mode..
you are limited in your choices of lift..
all the lifts on the market for 93 and up are about the same
they all drop the diff and use long spacers to account for the difference
between the control arms. It is called a spindle spacer.
the procomp II lift the one of the heavier duty units onthe market.
i would also check out superlift. they're lift is a little more expensive
but i think it is a better design. ( most of the supports on it are one
peice not bolt together)
what you want is a Rancho lift/downey combo. but you can't use that
since the sir compressor for the a/c was moved and it now in the way
of the rancho control arms.( big mistake by toyota) this lift can
only be used on a 4 cyl.
i hope that this helps. also if you want more ground clearance, look
into HD torsion bars and crank em up and you will gain another couple
of inches.
Aaron Bewley
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:02:18 +0200
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Lift Selection
To:
> So I was wondering if anybody could give a little help in one mans quest to
>get taller. Oh by the way I own a "93 V6. Just to add my two cents, my BFG
>AT's were great and I would still be using all four if some dirtbag wouldn't
>of slashed them.
>
>So what is the best lift for rock crawling. Height, Cost, Quality,
>Installation are all considerations. Thanks for any help offered!
In my opinion, if you're serious about wheeling the best choice is to
loose the IFS. Others will tell you of this or that company that makes 13-14"
travel such and such parts but don't buy the media hype. I had a guy call me
the other night about doing a solid axle conversion who's tried all those
parts and said it was media hype and didn't get anywhere near the travel
the parts were claimed too, and worse than that, almost all of the
supposed high travel parts failed under hard core use. Since others
on this list appear to be friends with the makers of some of these parts
I won't name names .... but it's the straight dope from a guy who's bolted
almost every IFS goody on and tried it out ...
JKR makes a kit now to swap the IFS out for a simple, reliable
solid axle. 300+ people on his waiting list though ... or do it yourself
like I did:
http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/project/projtoy.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:25:25 -0700
From: Nick.Krest@nickkrest.batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: 4WD Shop - B.S. or the Truth
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Douglas Berger <4_your_eyes_only@thepentagon.com> wrote:
"I talked to a local 4WD Shop and he quoted me $750
for a ProComp Stage II Lift for my '91 X-tra Cab.
FWPW charges around $650-$675. Now the
question is - the guy at the shop said "some mail-
order wharehouses don't send you complete kits" and
he said he gets the kits STRAIGHT from Explorer
ProComp who sends him COMPLETE kits."
This is somewhat true. Many (unscrupulous) mail-order warehouses will make
you buy add-ons to complete your lift kit.
However, what stinks in this particular guy's story is the fact that
Explorer is the house brand of 4Wheel Parts Wholesalers. Go ahead, check
the mailing address for Explorer, and look at the main mailing address for
4WPW. They are both the same address in Burbank, CA. This is the reason
that 4WPW trys to sell Explorer for every application - their margin is
huge!
I like 4WPW for what it is - a discount chain. Unfortunately, the retail
stores I've been to have been mostly staffed with guys whose 'wheeling
experience is mostly limited to how high they can lift their new Chevy
dually to impress the chicks. When it comes to real, specialized,
expertise, I'd go with a hard-core, knowledgeable shop.
Good luck,
- Nick
------------------------------
Date: 08 Oct 97 08:29:09 PDT
From: DFritzsc@smtp.cde.ca.gov (Fritzsche, David)
Subject: 4WD Shop - B.S. or the Truth
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I talked to a local 4WD Shop and he quoted me $750 for a ProComp Stage II
Lift for my '91 X-tra Cab. FWPW charges around $650-$675. Now the
questions is - the guy at the shop said "some mail-order warehouses don't
send you complete kits" and he said he gets the kits STRAIGHT from
Explorer ProComp who sends him COMPLETE kits. He said he's had a problem
with people coming in who have bought kits mail-order and been SOL
because they don't have ALL of the parts.
Is this GUY legit in what he's saying?
I bought my Pro-Comp II lift from a place in Colorado (can-not remember
the name right now) and I upgraded on the shocks. My lift kit was shipped
directly from Pro-Comp to me. I received all the parts plus some extra
nuts and bolts. I think I paid about $650.00 + shipping which was cheaper
then anyone else I could find in California even with the shipping
charge. Are you installing this yourself? I did mine by my self, took
about 13 hours. Make sure you follow the directions real well.
David Fritzsche
1990 V-6 Ex-Cab
4" Pro-CompII-4"NWOR rear springs
4:88 gears Tru-Trak Front-ARB rear
Body by Sierra Rocks
Pinstripes by Bushes
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:57:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg S. Francis)
Subject: Good shops, Rancho vs. ProComp
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>I live in the Denver area and would like to know if anyone has any
>recommendations for a couple of good 4x shops.
>In addition, I want to lift my 93' 4Runner. I want a tough kit that
>will increase my travel. It seems like many people these days are going
>with ProComp, however 4" seems like a bit much for my taste. What about
>the Rancho, it has been around for a long time. How does it compare to
>the ProComp (besides the fact that bright red would be really ugly under
>my truck)?
James-
My understanding is that Rancho and Superlift (Superlink) are the only kits
out there that increase travel, aside from a custom kit (Downey, for
example, which is based on the Rancho kit.) I also thought that 4" was a
little much, as I run 32s. For this reason, I installed the Rancho kit
last weekend. I'm still getting used to it, but so far I like it very
much. We'll see how it performs off-road either this weekend or next.
BTW- The kit matches my red truck nicely.
Hope this could help.
- -Greg
Greg S. Francis
University of Texas @ Austin
School of Architecture
gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
TLCA Member #5558
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 21:14:12 -0700
From: Terry & Sandy Johnson
Subject: 4WPW & Pro Comp
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Doug wrote:
> So buying from 4WPW is fine, right? Anyone ever have a
> problem with them and ProComp lifts?
>
> Thanks for the response.
>
> Douglas Berger
My experience has been with the Oakland Ca shop which was last year.
They were helpful and friendly, gave me a great deal on all the mod's I
had done, and I think they did a good job on the installations. Back
then I was new to the more serious 4X4 scene so I had a lot of questions.
I bought the Pro Comp Stage II kit which they of course recommended.
After installation the kit gave me 4" in front but only 3" in the rear.
This is a draw back with the Pro Comp lifts. But 4WPW offered me free
shackles or an add-a-leaf and free installation. I opted for the
shackles to get the other 1" of lift. I haven't had any other problems
with the lift, but as far as comparisons to other lifts I can't really
say as it is the only lift I've had.
Terry Johnson
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:01:32 -0500 (EST)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Trailmaster for 2nd gen 4R
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-11-13 15:07:11 EST, you write:
> I really like the procomp lift i have on my 4runner ('87). I think it is
the
> same as the
> one trailmaster makes. It doesn't give you anymore wheel travel, it just
> boosts you up.
One more thing, you can tweak the ProComp Stage I lift to get a wee but more
travel out of it. It takes some carefull measurements, but you can shorten
the bumpstop extensions that limit compression and gain more up travel (I
made new stronger ones that were shorter). I could probably take off a little
bit more. I guess you could also use lowprofile stoppers instead, but I
wanted to keep the extra cushioning to deal with hard bottoming. I put low
profile ones on the extension stoppers to get more extension. With this, I
gained about 1 inch at the bumpstops. I am not sure what this comes to at
the tire.
Dav