Springs
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: '83 Toyota 4x Suspension Questions
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Date: 25 Jun 1996 17:22:12 GMT
> reitter@ix.netcom.com (John Reitter) writes:
> Help me stop my teeth from CHATTERING!!!???
>
> I current have a 1983 Toyota 4x4 pickup with a Rancho 3" suspension,
> BFG 33x12.5 tires on 12x10 steel rims. Needless to say (for anyone
> who has or had an older Toyota pickup), the ride is VERY stiff. The
> shocks, BTW, are Rancho 5132's.
>
> I am looking to change the truck somehow to get a better ride on-road
> (95% of all of my driving). I will consider changing the rims
> (aluminum?) or the shocks if any of these will improve the ride.
> However, I want to keep the tire size and the 3" lift that I
> currently have.
>
> Suggestions anyone?
Yep....
First changing to alum rims will not help the ride one bit. Change to a
softer shock, like the 9000's with it set on one or two, and I know you
wanted to keep the rancho springs, but they are really stiff - this is
where most of the problem lies! I ended up scrapping mine and going to
a superlift / softride suspension (4 new springs - dont go add-a-leaves!!
- you'll be back saking the same ??'s in a cuple of weeks!) I am
extremely happy with the ride now, and the wife also mentioned that it
is 100% better riding than before. If you sell the rancho springs to an
unsuspecting customer you can re-coup some of the cost too..
- Brian
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: '83 Toyota 4x Suspension Questions
From: ryna10@email.sps.mot.com (Jay Kopycinski)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 00:25:26 GMT
Toss the RS500s and buy the light valved (multi-shock application)
RS9000s for your Toy. It will make quite a difference.
Which lift are you running?
Rancho? stiff and no travel
Downey? soft but sags quickly
NWOR? stiff and poor leaf design
or.....???
-----------------------------------------------
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
Arizona Lo-Rangers ASA4WDC UFWDA
Fun Country Fourwheelers SWFWDA TLCA
-----------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: '85 Toyota--Can I make it ride softer?
From: ryna10@email.sps.mot.com (Jay Kopycinski)
Date: 30 Jul 1996 15:42:53 GMT
In article <4tj3td$2a6@niner.apsc.com>, mbaltzly@apsc.com (Michael Baltzly)
wrote:
> I have a 1985 Toyota 4x4 longbed truck that I bought new and have
> driven for 189,000 miles. I am still completely satisfied with
> everything about the truck, but I am getting a lot of complaints from
> my girlfriend about the harsh ride. Is there any way that I can make
> this truck ride BETTER than new? Here is some information that may be
> pertinant to the ride quality:
>
> * Original springs, slightly sagged in front
> * Rancho RS5000 shocks and stabilizer
> * Original rubber bushings in decent shape
> * Steel-frame shell (250lbs?)
> * Warn M5000 in brushguard mount (100lbs?)
> * 7" aluminum wheels
> * 31/10.50 Goodyear Wrangler RT/S tires, 28psi
>
> None of my changes were intended to change the ride quality, and none
> have affected it. I am thinking of trying the "soft ride" springs
> that NorthWest Offroad sells but I want to see if anyone has a better
> idea.
>
I have some of the 3.5" NWOR springs. They are the typical mass-produced,
thick-leaf, too harsh springs. They are very stiff. The Downey springs are
much better but tend to sag after about two years.
The biggest change in your case would come from tossing the RS5000s and
installing something with lighter dampening. The RS5000s are way over
damped for the light Toyota unless you're into jumping the truck.
-----------------------------------------------
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
Arizona Lo-Rangers ASA4WDC UFWDA
Fun Country Fourwheelers SWFWDA TLCA
-----------------------------------------------
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: '85 Toyota--Can I make it ride softer?
From: brucer@dublin.hw.stratus.com (Bruce Rioux)
Date: 30 Jul 1996 18:06:56 GMT
There's hope for a "better than new" ride, but I don't think you'll ever
make it comparable to an 89-94 truck.
I put NWOR's 2" softride suspension system with Doetch-Tech shocks on
my '84 4Runner, and it definitely improved the ride over the stock sagging
springs and RS-5000's that it had. But the ride was still far from
a friends stock '86 4Runner with the IFS.
Definitely get rid of the RS-5000's, as they seem to be valved too stiff
for the road. The Doetch-Tech's have softer valving, so they ride better
on the road, but you'll prob'ly bottom out faster off-road. You might
wanna look at the RS-9000's, 'cause you can change the valving to match
your needs.
If you plan to do the spring installation yourself, email me for a couple
helpful hints, 'cause a couple of the bolts are a bitch to remove.
FYI: I just recently upgraded my ride quality by replacing my '84 with
a '94 V6 SR5 4Runner! What a difference!
Good luck,
-BruceR
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Bruce Rioux Internet: brucer@hw.stratus.com
Stratus Computer, Inc. Phone: (508)460-2549
Marlboro, MA 01752
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:36:36 -0700
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: 4Runner Suspension Lift
To: TLCAL@TLCA.ORG
Scott says :
>Any knowledge about the
>different kits would be appreciated.
>
>About the kits I do have a couple of questions:
>
>- -Ease and time to install?
>- -I've gotten the feeling that lifting with blocks for the rear isn't the
>best way to go. Is this correct? What are my options?
>- -Will re-gearing be necessary, or is that an option for more power?
>
>I appreciate you bearing with me,
I say :
This is exactly what these lists are for. Informing those who are, as yet,
un-informed.
You didn't say what year vehicle you have. Axles come in 3 flavors, solid,
ifs, coil. Solids are easy and cheap, ifs is expensive and hard, don't know
about coils (on rear axle on 1990's and up) .
Solid axle : replacement springs are the best way to go. Downey is cheap
but you get what you pay for (they sag quickly). I have
ProComps on my front axle
blocks are cheapest and easiest, never sag, but are hard on
the springs. NEVER PUT BLOCKS ON FRONT AXLES. I have blocks
in my rear axle and just did all of the Rubicon with no
problems.
Add-a-leafs are cheap and easy, but are hard on the springs
and result in a hard ride. If you do this, go with the 'long'
leaves. Ride is better and easy on the old spring pack.
ifs Lots of companies make lifts. Stay away from the
10-inch-travel kit from Downey, it breaks easily.
You can also just add a new torsion bar to get
about 1.5" of lift, but you need 3" for 33" tires.
Truck will be gutless with 33" tires, without re-gearing the differentials.
Go with at least 4.88's. Will need to replace all shocks, regardless of
method of lift.
Good luck.
################################################################
Rick Murray 84 Toyota 4Runner SR5
CA4WDC stock 22R motor ; 3" ProComp Lift
Rancho Cordova, Ca. 8" steel rims; 33" BFG M/Ts
www.gvn.net/~rmurray/ 4.88 gears; Marlin TCase ; TRD posi
################################################################
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
Keith wrote:
>
> I need some opinions on lift kits. (OME is WAY out of my price range)
> I am trying to get 2"-3" of lift and correct the sag('77 FJ-40)
> I can re-arch the factory springs or buy an aftermarket lift(Rugged
> Trail,Rancho,Skyjacker,etc.)for about the same price.What are the pro's and
> con's
> Thanks again,
> Keith
Keith,
I have nothing but great words to say about the Skyjacker Softride lift kits.
I'm running their 4" lift kit and it is extremely comfortable in my '76. I
injured my back during my military days and needed something that would not
beat me to death.
I drove my Cruiser to Moab and back this past May and didn't require
hospitalization.
It works for me.
- --
Park Owens '76 FJ-40 '88 FJ-62 TLCA 2569
powens@silver.sdsmt.edu Dakota Territory Cruisers
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 00:15:44 -0400
From: Ruth Capen
Subject: lift kits
To: NightLight (The Administrator)
Rugged Trail is now Warn Black Diamond. Unless they are totally
re-engineered don't waste your money on them. I have the Rugged Trail
springs. They came as *3* leaf packs and had absolutely no articulation.
An IFS truck would have a better RTI than I did with those springs. With
only 2 leaves, however....
David Lawrence
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 15:09:09 -0500
From: Michael Greenway
Subject: NWOR Springs
To: tlcal@tlca.org
Ross Raymond Fahlen wrote:
>I have a few questions about Toy Truck Springs. Does anyone have
>NWOR 3.5 inch springs on their 79-84 truck? If so have found them to
>be as stiff as I have? I have them with Rancho 9000's set on one and
>they are way too stiff for my taste.
Yes, I have had the same experience with NWOR 3.5" lift springs. It was
almost unbearable. I finally broke one of the front springs (cracked at the
center bolt). I replaced them with 5" Skyjacker Softrides. They cost twice
as much and I think they are worth it. Nice ride and they articulate well.
The NWOR springs were so stiff that I would get a rear wheel to lift 2 or
3 feet off the ground. It made for some good pictures and the pucker
feeling all the time. Also NWOR said that they would not warrent the
spring because they said it was because the u-bolts were loose. NOT!
Later...
Michael Greenway TLCA #3000
76 FJ40, 81 Mini, 86 4-Runner (1st two with Marlins)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:03:15 -0600
From: "Jay Kopycinski-RYNA10"
Subject: NWOR springs?
To: "TLCAL@tlca.org%azbcsm1"
Subject: Time: 10:16 AM
OFFICE MEMO NWOR springs? Date: 11/4/96
amigo@azstarnet.com (Scott Rowin) wrote:
> Looking at a suspension upgrade (still) for a '88 4-Runner. I
>was looking at NWOR's system 2, which includes the nice torsion bar
>upgrade to 26mm (I'm running 31" tires).
Depends if you want more lift, a stiffer ride up front, etc. as far
as whether to change the front torsions or not.
>I'm mainly concerned with how the
>rear springs with 2" lift ride & wear. A lot of comments that theres many
>brands sagging out in 2 years or so, I'm wondering if NWOR's is on that list
>for sagging? Also how do they ride -- ROUGH was heck, or smooth and
controlled?
I currently run the 3.5" NWOR springs up front and they are really
stiff for the rock-crawling I do. I think they might work well in
mud, but not in a situation where you want good articulation.
I run Downey 3" springs on the rear and have found that they sag out after
about two years. They do offer a pretty decent ride as they are stock
spring rate.
>I may just opt for OMEs, but want to hear comments about
>NWOR's suspension stuff.
No experience with the OME stuff. When I ordered my NWOR springs
they sent me a defective one and I had to pay both forward and return
shipping to get it replaced. Their customer service is less than great.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 20:28:54 -0800
From: Ross Raymond Fahlen (by way of Gary Bjork
Subject: TLCAL Digest V1 #103
To: tlcal@tlca.org
Dear Scott,
I have NWOR springson my truck and do not like them at all. they are too
stiff and they do not articulate very well. I have ridden in another
vehicle with OME and they are much better than any other that I have
ridden on in that vehicle. I have spoken to one of the representatives
from OME in Seattle and he told me the benefits of these springs. Good
Luck, Ross
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:26:31 -0600
From: "Jay Kopycinski-RYNA10"
Subject: Toy Truck Springs
To: "TLCAL@tlca.org%azbcsm1"
Subject: Time: 9:48 AM
OFFICE MEMO Toy Truck Springs Date: 11/4/96
Ross Raymond Fahlen wrote:
>I have a few questions about Toy Truck Springs. Does anyone have NWOR
>3.5 inch springs on their 79-84 truck? If so have found them to be a
>stiff as I have? I have them with Rancho 9000's set on one and they are
way too stiff for my taste.
I have them up front with soft-valved 9000s and they are way too stiff.
I have a few ideas for a new setup and would like to get some feedback if
possible. #1 I want to maybe try a new spring brand like OME or National
or Alcan. I don't really care that much about price I just want
something that will work.
I was going to go with National, but figured after spending $400+
on front springs I probably still wouldn't be satisfied. I'm currently
working on some ideas for some hybrid spring packs of my own making.
(BTW......my main type wheeling is rock-crawling)
>My next idea is to take a stock flat spring
>and build sort of a box that gets welded to the frame that the spring
>mounts on (like a dropped spring hanger). Even if I put another cross
>member between the hangers would it twist the frame too much at high
>speeds on the freeway?
I've seen this done. It was 2" high and seemed to work well. Combined
with a 2" longer shackle, you get a 2" lift and get to retain a flatter
spring for softness and articulation. What you don't get with this
setup is an increase in front clearance and approach angle.
>I also want to cut out the fender wells and weld on an extended shock mount
>then mount longer shocks. Any feedback that anyone has would be helpful
I've done this so I now can run 14" travel front shocks.
It is the way to go if you don't mind cutting a small
hole in the fenderwell.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 12:28:44 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: suggestion: springs or shackles?
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
Jonathan Albrecht wrote:
>Kind of in a tough situation -- looking to raise the rear on my '88
>4 Runner. My next option is just to reshackle, raise the rear that
>2" or so to ride better (and level).
(snip)
>>
>> The biggest shackles you can buy only lift about 1.25". I used Downey's
>> longest shackles, and they only gave me 1" lift. (snip)
First of all they do make longer shackles. I don't remember the brand.
If you like I'll find out for you. I bought them from 4 Wheel Parts
Wholesalers in San Jose. I have them on my 4Runner right now. I used
a shackle 3" longer than stock, and ended up with a 2 1/2" lift. Just
a bit higher than I wanted, but it looks good.
I recently (2 weeks ago) raised the back of my '88 4Runner with a
shackle lift. I am VERY happy with it. It only cost me $23, the
price for the shackles. And they were a very high quality shackle.
I invested another $25 or so, and changed all the bushings in the
rear springs to poly. I would also recommend doing this to your
'Runner, it significantly reduces body roll.
I don't have time to write more at this moment, but if you'd like
more info on this e-mail me direct. Also, if you decide to change
over to the poly bushings, definately e-mail me, I'll give you some
time saving tips and hopefully you won't have the trial 'n error
hassel I went through.
- --
Scott A. Wilson __o __o __o __o
Santa Clara, CA _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_
swilson@pacbell.net (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:33:39 -0500
From: Toy4x4s@aol.com
Subject: suggestion: springs or shackles?
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
In a message dated 96-11-24 06:45:31 EST, you write:
<< I
eventually went to a Rancho add-a-leaf, and I'm glad I did. Not to hard
to install, the ride seemed fine to me, and my truck had about an extra
inch or so of lift in the rear (I like the look of a slightly raked
truck.) Plus, I have an increased load capacity of about 500lbs. >>
Jonathan/Scott
I have an 88 4Runner V-6 I bought new, with the same saggy butt dilema. In
about 1 year I couldn't stand it so I went the Rancho add-a-leaf route. It
was cool! As Jonathan stated all was well, it had a slight rake, and extra
hauling capacity. I ended up with about 2 or so inches of extra lift (above
"level" height). It was neato... We always took my Runner on vacations and
camping a few times. During the vacations the weight of the 2 kids and all
our stuff for 2 weeks (the rear cargo area was filled level witht the rear
seats) it never sagged. BUT!!! Now the bad part... About 3 years ago I
noticed that I had a broken spring! So immediatly I took it off, brought it
to Denver Spring and wanted them to fix it. Here was the education I got.....
Yeah, for $100 they could fix the broken spring and re-install my stubby
add-a-leaf. But, I'd be back again in the future to have it fixed again and
again... Here's the problem. You have a short add a leaf that is thicker than
all other leafs. So it's not going to bend and flex persay... so when the
spring pack needs to flex, the stubby leaf won't let the pack bend or flex
beyond where the end of the add a leaf starts, so you break the leaf jujst
above the add a leaf at the forward end of the add a leaf. That all sounds
confusing, but i guess if you think about it and visualize it it makes sense.
Well I thought this guy was full of stuffing and all he wanted to do was get
the business for removing both stubby add a leafs and replacing them with a
custom add a leaf that gave me the 2 inches above stock. They wanted $200. I
said just fix the one I brought you and put my leaf back in... Well.....
about a year later my other side broke! So I began to think about what this
guy had told me a bit more in depth... yes, it made sense. Since the other
side had broken in exactly the same spot. So what did I do? I asked my club
members for suggestions. One said that some leaf from some Chevy truck would
fit right in, it's a full sized leaf, and it would give me my lift. The other
option was to check out this club acquaintence that does spring work, and
have him basically do what the first spring guy had explained. So that's what
I did... I had the Rancho's removed, and replaced with a full sized custom
add a leaf that still gave me my lift, soft ride, and hauling capacity. I
didn't go to Denver Spring because they were way more expensive than the
other guy... I ended up paying like $70 to have the 2 leafs made, and have my
stock broken leaf replaced. Yes I'm a happy camper now... The Rancho add a
leafs are the same one that you get with a Rancho 3 in lift kit for a pick up
truck. Since there is virtually no weight continually in a p/up bed these
work fine for p/ups to some extent. We had put these leafs in our 85 p/up way
back in 85. they were just fine until this last summer when we had the full
load of vacation/camping gear in the truck and we did Rubicon. The load
compiled with the rough bumping and what not not only broke the one leaf
above the add a leaf, but it bent the remaining 2 or whatever other leafs!!!
Boy were we ever sagging! But we did the rest of the trail just fine (gotta
love those gears and ARB's!).
So speaking of NWOR's springs..... We bought a set while still on vacation
right from their showroom in Bellingham WA. They seem just fine for us...
They have the yellow urethane bushings, and NWOR reccomends that you use
their bump stops. If you don't, you void your warranty. The springs also have
these greasable hole things (there really is a name for them, but it escapes
me) so the springs don't squeak. That is really annoying when that happens.
Anyhow, we've had those springs on, front and rear since July. We honestly
haven't had a chance to go wheelin' with them, so i don't know what kind of
travel they have, but I don't notice them as being so stiff..... BTW, we also
use the stock shackles on both my Runner and his now totalled truck. we don't
feel as though we need a longer shackle. We should be transferring the
springs from the totalled truck, onto the new 85 4Runner soon... So I'll be
courious how they feel there...
SO BOTTOM LINE!!!
If you go with an add a leaf, make sure it's a full length leaf, NOT a stubby
one. Also consider the new spring pack with the lift you desire... instead of
using an add a leaf.
June Bennett
Rising Sun 4WD Club of Colorado
TLCA 2942
85 & 88 4Runners
72 & 76 FJ 40's
and that crunched up 85 pick up.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:23:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: suggestion: springs or shackles?
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>SO BOTTOM LINE!!! If you go with an add a leaf, make sure it's a full
>length leaf, NOT a stubby one. Also consider the new spring pack with the
>lift you desire... instead of using an add a leaf.
Actually I have heard of this happening, but didn't say anything about it
because I'd never had that problem... I know that downey sell's a
pre-runner add-a-leaf that is long with teflon pads at the ends. Anybody
have any experience with this particular setup? It's tempting because
it's also only about 50 bucks..
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:04:28 -0800
From: "eagle"
Subject: Leaf Spring Sag : (
To:
I have an 84' 4x4 pu, stock 22R, 31" tires; I have had it for 2-3 years
and It has always looked this way so I am not sure what is normal, but the
leafs on the front are actually slightly inverse of what I would think they
should be. The rear leafs look normal to me and the truck sits level, but
the fronts are now bent slightly the other way. What I do not understand is
why the truck sits level if this is abnormal, since the rears do not appear
to have this sag. It also appears to me that the front suspension has only
1 1/2" - 2" of compression travel before it hits rubber.......
Comments, suggestions?
/////(( DUKE ))\\\\\
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:34:34 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Leaf Spring Sag
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Duke wrote:
>I have an 84' 4x4 pu...the leafs on the front are actually slightly
>inverse of what I would think they should be. The rear leafs look
>normal to me and the truck sits level, but the fronts are now bent
>slightly the other way. What I do not understand is why the truck
>sits level if this is abnormal, since the rears do not appear to
>have this sag. It also appears to me that the front suspension has
>only 1 1/2" - 2" of compression travel before it hits rubber.
Completely normal for a set of 13-year old stock springs. They start out
fairly flat, then fatigue and arch backward. Remember, springs are a
disposable commodity. They go a few years and you replace 'em. You wouldn't
keep the same set of shocks on for 13 years would you? Springs do a lot
more. 2" of travel to the bump stop is normal.
I would replace 'em; if you're not in the market for a lift, there are
aftermarket stock-height replacements out there. But you're still in the 2"
travel zone.
Good luck,
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:00:00 +1100
From: "Jones, Andrew AL"
Subject: Leaf Spring Sag
To: "'Toy4x4 List'"
In reply:
What you describe is fairly common for stock springs 2-3 years old and
older. The front leafs are only slightly bowed downwards when new and
soon sag to become "actually slightly inverse of what I would think they
should be". The rear sags as well but as they start off with much more
bow so they don't reverse and its not noticeable in the same way as in
the front (and the truck stays level).
1 1/2 - 2" off the rubber however, does sound a little low, but they are
13 years old. If you are into off-roading on rocky/rough terrain then
you might what to think about new springs or getting yours reset. In my
opinion good suspension travel is very important and second only to
locked diffs in terms of 'go anywhere' four wheel drive ability in rough
terrain. Resetting springs is cheaper and actually gives a pretty good
result, you can also add a helper leaf to increase load capacity and
better resist further sag. However if money's not tight look at one of
the many aftermarket replacement sets with shocks to match.
Hope my opinion is useful,
Andrew.
jones.andrew.al@bhp.com.au
------------------------------
__________________
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:47:24 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: "opposing" shocks on 4Runner
To: " - (052)dwebster (a) sfu.ca"
Daniel Webster
Scott Wilson was right about the reasons for the shocks mouted in "opposition"
- -
The reason is correct - its to help reduce unwanted axle movement - in
particular the tendency for the axle to
1 - rotate up/down (pinion gear cimbs the ring)
2 - rotate left/right (one wheel pushes harder then the other)
This tendency is normally described as axle "tramp" in car parlance (aka
Mustangs and Camaros)
Leaf springs must perform several functions:
1 - provide ride height control
2 - provide up/down axle movement
3 - locate the axle in the up/down, left/right, front/back, and rotational
planes
The problem has been that it cant really do all totally effectively.
There are numerous solutiosn (with additional attendent problems)
Ladder bars (like Rancho's Trac Arms) can locate the axle in the front back
plane very well, but can
1 - limit ground clearance
2 - "fight" the spring for locational position
Panhard rods can locate the axle very well in the left right plane but:
1 - can induce bump steer as the rod swings
2 - may be difficult to do with a long travel suspension
"A" frame trailing rods (like the 4 links on the coil sprung 4Runners)
work well but need lots of space to work really effectively - look
at many race trucks - this is the setup they tend to use with the 1/4
eliptic spring setup.
All of the above are complicated and get expensive.
I believe it was GM that first discovered that simply placing the shocks
(or more appropiately called dampers) in opposite directions in the
front to back planes solved much of the axle tramp problems for basicly
no cost. (on leaf sprung live axles)
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jan 1997 12:44:49 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Questions on 3" lift
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:47 AM
OFFICE MEMO Questions on 3" lift Date: 1/21/97
mstano@okway.okstate.edu (Michael Stano) wrote:
>I need help (again). I have an '84 4x4 long bed. My front springs are
>beginning to droop. Rather than buy new stock-height springs, I am
>consideringa 3" lift. Questions: Since I don't do off-road, and I don't
>want to build a monster, should I stick with stock-height springs?
You have several options.........
All aftermarket lift springs have a spring rate equal to or greater than
stock. Downey springs are claimed to be stock spring rate. Other springs
will make your truck ride rougher on the street.
It sounds like (for your use) a lift serves you no purpose but looks.
So.....you could buy stock-height replacement springs, though I've never
priced these.
You could also ask around to find someone who pulled their stock springs
early in the life of the truck and has had them in storage since then.
Should be able to get those cheap. (Mine have long been used as rebar
in a backyard project.)
You might also check into having your stock springs cold arched to restore
the orginal ride height. The rearch won't last as long, but may work well
in your case.
>If I do a lift, should I get
>a kit with new front springs and rear add-a-leafs, which I know will
>stiffen the ride, or go for new springs front and rear?
Front and rear is better and smoother, but cost over double the price
of a front spring/add-a-leaf kit.
>Which system is best: Rancho, Pro-Comp, Downey, other?
Ranchos are about bottom quality when it comes to aftermarket
springs. They will last quite a while, but are quite stiff.
NWOR springs are about the same.......quite stiff.
Downey makes nice springs.....only problem is that they loose
their ride height after a few years.....nice ride though.
These are the ones I've had personal experience with......FWIW....YMMV.
>If I do a lift, my 215R75 tires will look stupid, so I'll need bigger
>wheels and tires--will switching to 31s or 32s require any gear change
>(I know my speedometer reading will be affected, but that doesn't
>bother me)? Thanks in advance for your advice.
31s with 4.10s aren't too bad. Hills are a drag and you can forget towing
much of anything.......also depends on the condition of your engine. I
definitely would not go to 32s with 4.10s.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jan 1997 12:11:38 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck
Subject: Questions on 3" lift
To: mstano@okway.okstate.edu (Michael Stano)
>> Michael Stano writes:
MS> I need help (again). I have an '84 4x4 long bed. My front
MS> springs are beginning to droop. Rather than buy new stock-height
MS> springs, I am considering a 3" lift. If I do a lift, should I get
MS> a kit with new front springs and rear add-a-leafs, which I know
MS> will stiffen the ride, or go for new springs front and rear?
I have an 85 4Runner with a 3" front springs and rear add-a-leaf. The
stiffness on this is *horrible*!!! When I had monster tires on it
(33x12.5) they soaked up much of the jolting, but I took them off
because without a gear change, the truck sucked with these monsters
on. Now with stock size tires, I want to go back to stock
suspension. And NO, I did not put those tires and suspension on
myself, I bought the truck that way and the large tires had trashed
the differential.
MS> what should installation cost?
What keeps me from going back to stock suspension is that I was quoted
about $900 for new stock front springs, 4 new Rancho 5000's and labor
to install front springs and remove rear helpers and install shocks.
MS> will switching to 31s or 32s require any gear change (I know my
MS> speedometer reading will be affected, but that doesn't bother me)?
IMHO, having large tires without regearing is the fastest way to trash
your truck. You may be able to get by with 31s, but as you get up to
32s and 33s, the possibility of prematurely wearing out your entire
drive train increases.
You say you do not want to go offroad, then why go to all the expense
to be a poser? I can understand someone who gets a suspension lift
and large tires for added clearance to go rock crawling, but other
than this, they are just window dressing and it is your money.
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen@vigra.com
http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:47:09 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Softer ride for an '85?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Mike R. Baltzly wrote:
"I would like to try to get a softer ride
from my '85 longbed...I would like
to get the ride to be at least as soft as
in a '89-'95 truck. I rarely haul anything
heavy. I drive offroad a fair bit but I don't
do any insane, extreme rock crawling. I would
be willing change to a small amount of lift or
any moderate tire size if this would make a
significant improvement in the ride.
"My current setup is:
Original stock springs (now sagged in the front)
RS5000 shocks
31-10.50 Goodyear Wrangler RT/S (28 psi)
Warn M5000 and combo mount (100 lbs?)
Steel-frame shell (200 lbs?)
"RS9000 shocks get a lot of praise, so I will
probably give them a try...NW Offroad has 2"
"soft ride" springs--are these really softer
than stock, or are they just soft compared to
really stiff lift springs?"
I have yet to hear of anyone on this or any other list call ANY springs
from Northwest "Soft," no matter what they are advertised as. I would take
NWOR's salespeople with a grain of salt.
I think everyone will second the motion that RS5000's are STIFF, STIFF,
STIFF - I lived with 'em for 10 years. RS9000's are great shocks, but you
state that you rarely carry a load. IMHO, an adjustable shock is not in
your future.
I would also run less tire pressure - 26 or maybe 24 lbs.
Methinks you should call Rocky Mountain Off-Road (970) 242-6005. They will
do stock, stiffer, or softer custom springs from 0-4" of lift. I would
recommend Bilstein shocks with no lift. It's pretty evident that you don't
want to lift if it's not necessary.
Good luck,
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 13:32:05 -0800
From: Mike Williams
Subject: Softride For an '85
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Mike, I just switched from an old style Skyjacker 5" lift with double
gas shocks all around to a NWOR 3.5 inch lift with single hydraulic shocks.
The Skyjacker 5" lift was stiff and rode much better with a load in the
bed. After having the Skyjacker lift on my truck for two years, I
decided I wanted a lower softer ride. After looking at many different
suspension systems, I narrowed my decision down to either a 3.5" NWOR
"soft-ride" system or another Skyjacker system (this time 3").
After installing the NWOR "soft-ride" system, I was _greatly_
disappointed. The NWOR system rode as hard and stiff as my old style
Skyjacker System even though it was a lower lift and had single hydraulic
shocks. So IMHO, the NWOR "soft-ride" system rides too hard and for me was a
waste of money.
*Note by old style Skyjacker system I mean the leaf springs did not have
the polyurethane pads on their tips. Also these old style spring packs
were tightly clamped at the ends instead of using loose bolt style
clamps. The new Skyjacker springs incorporate these features and I feel
these are two features that should be looked for in any spring upgrade.
Also you wrote about changing tire size. I feel that this also has an
effect on ride. I run 35" BFG All Terrains and they ride good but I
know my ride quality would improve if I changed to a 32" BFG (smaller).
Mike
'81 SR5
---------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 97 08:23:52 MST
From: chott@aicd.sps.mot.com (Jim Chott)
Subject: softer ride for 85 longbed
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I have had good luck with the Downey 3" springs all the way around using
Doetsch Tech MV-12 shocks. The MV-12's are even softer than Pre-Runners.
It still doesn't ride quite as good as an IFS, but MUCH better than the
stock springs and shocks. This was highlighted when I did a complete
suspension swap last summer from my truck to a 4Runner. The only down
side to Downey springs is that they sag after a couple years use and
need shackles. I still consider mine usable after 4 years and 70k miles
though.
Jim Chott
rzaa80@email.mot.com
1985 4Runner
------------------------------
Date: 3 Feb 1997 09:20:29 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Softer ride for an '85?
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:54 AM
OFFICE MEMO Softer ride for an '85? Date: 2/3/97
nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest) wrote:
>I have yet to hear of anyone on this or any other list call ANY springs
>from Northwest "Soft," no matter what they are advertised as. I would take
>NWOR's salespeople with a grain of salt.
I agree. I have NWOR 3.5" springs and they are way too stiff. And as Nick
mentioned, everyone I have ever talked to that owns NWOR springs also
has told me they are too stiff.
>I think everyone will second the motion that RS5000's are STIFF, STIFF,
>STIFF - I lived with 'em for 10 years. RS9000's are great shocks, but you
>state that you rarely carry a load. IMHO, an adjustable shock is not in
>your future.
The nice thing about the 9000s is that you can chose the dampening you
like. With the 5000s, the rate you get may or may not be right for your
vehicle and other conditions.
>Methinks you should call Rocky Mountain Off-Road (970) 242-6005. They will
>do stock, stiffer, or softer custom springs from 0-4" of lift. I would
>recommend Bilstein shocks with no lift. It's pretty evident that you don't
>want to lift if it's not necessary.
If you want a softer ride, you may want to try swapping in some springs
from a 2WD truck. 2WDs are sprung-under so they have decent arch on the
springs. It's an inexpensive way to go, but you may have to spend some time
playing with them to get what you want.
Curious.....what are their custom springs going for?
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
Date: 03 Feb 1997 10:50:45 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck
Subject: Softride For an '85
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
>> Mike Williams writes:
MW> "Baltzly, Mike R." wrote:
>> I would like to try to get a softer ride from my '85 longbed. I bought
>> the truck new, so I am thoroughly familiar with the normal ride quality
>> of live axle trucks--and I am starting to get tired of it.
MW> Also you wrote about changing tire size. I feel that this also
MW> has an effect on ride. I run 35" BFG All Terrains and they ride
MW> good but I know my ride quality would improve if I changed to a
MW> 32" BFG (smaller).
Well, two people have now said that going to smaller tires will make
the ride softer. I have to disagree. When I bought my `85 4Runner,
it had a 3" lift (who knows what brand, with rear extra leaf and new
front springs) and 33x12.5 tires. I know that these monster tires
were trashing the drive train, so I sold them and got stock size tires
and wheels. Now, the ride is stiffer than ever. The big bouncy tires
that were originally on there, soaked up a lot of the bumps and
softened the ride out a lot.
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen@vigra.com
http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California
-
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:12:29 +0000
From: "Mike Williams"
Subject: Custom Springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Jay wrote:
Curious.....what are their custom springs going for?
In reference to the custom springs built by Rocky Mountain Off-Road.
Rocky Mountain Off-Road is located in Grand Junction, Colorado about
an hours drive from Moab. Rocky Mountain Off-Road is run by a group
of Toyota "fanatics" as they call themselves.
Basically they will create tailor a suspension setup to a buyer's
wants. The price for each spring is approximately $150.00 ($600.00
for four springs). Their 4" softride Toyota setup includes front
springs with 5 leafs and the rears with 7 leafs. Compare this to
other suspension builders.
Besides building suspensions their shop does customs fabrication of
various parts such as bumpers and lightbars.
For more information on the type of work this shop does, there is an
article in November 1996's Four Wheel and Off-Road magazine that
highlights their work. (I don't have that copy in front of me so I
don't know which article it is off hand.)
Anyway Jack and Jay, (if I remember you are going to Moab Easter)
James and his gang will be at Moab Easter weekend and are willing to
discuss ideas and information. I have talked to James and he is very
willing to discuss suspensions, spring rates, shocks, and anything
else.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:27:27 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Custom Springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
"Mike Williams" wrote:
>Basically they will create tailor a suspension setup to a buyer's
>wants. The price for each spring is approximately $150.00 ($600.00
>for four springs). Their 4" softride Toyota setup includes front
>springs with 5 leafs and the rears with 7 leafs. Compare this to
>other suspension builders.
OUCH ! That's pricy ... at the rate soft springs last, they'd have
to come with a liftime warranty ...
>Anyway Jack and Jay, (if I remember you are going to Moab Easter)
>James and his gang will be at Moab Easter weekend and are willing to
>discuss ideas and information. I have talked to James and he is very
>willing to discuss suspensions, spring rates, shocks, and anything
>else.
I can't see forking out $150 per spring but I sure would like
them to tell me their formula for calculating spring rates if
they use a good one. One that use the length, thickness and arch
of each leaf in the spring pack unlike the one I have now that
only takes the total number of leaves, length of the longest
one, and thickness of one leaf. Or if anyone else has a spring
rate formula besides the one in the suspension book by Herb Adams
I would greatly appreciate your sharing it with me ! I tried my
best to talk the folks at National Spring to tell me theirs but
they wouldn't share, imagine that...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
Date: 5 Feb 1997 09:30:15 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Custom Springs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:41 AM
OFFICE MEMO Custom Springs Date: 2/5/97
"Mike Williams" wrote:
>Jay wrote:
>Curious.....what are their custom springs going for?
>In reference to the custom springs built by Rocky Mountain Off-Road.
>
>Rocky Mountain Off-Road is located in Grand Junction, Colorado about
>an hours drive from Moab. Rocky Mountain Off-Road is run by a group
>of Toyota "fanatics" as they call themselves.
>
>Basically they will create tailor a suspension setup to a buyer's
>wants. The price for each spring is approximately $150.00 ($600.00
>for four springs). Their 4" softride Toyota setup includes front
>springs with 5 leafs and the rears with 7 leafs. Compare this to
>other suspension builders.
Sounds pretty reasonable, especially since National wants $450
per pair.
>For more information on the type of work this shop does, there is an
>article in November 1996's Four Wheel and Off-Road magazine that
>highlights their work.
I saw their shop truck and it seemed to have good suspension travel.
However, I noticed it also had a 2 inch body lift, so it looks like
the suspension droop they are getting is not much better than what
you get with most aftermarket springs. Though......big limiting factors
are the driveshaft and draglink travel capabilities.
>Anyway Jack and Jay, (if I remember you are going to Moab Easter)
>James and his gang will be at Moab Easter weekend and are willing to
>discuss ideas and information. I have talked to James and he is very
>willing to discuss suspensions, spring rates, shocks, and anything
>else.
Sounds great. I'd like to know where we might find these guys.
Jay
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:31:38 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Quick Release Sway Bar (IFS)
To: " - (052)swilson (a) pacbell.net"
Scott:
Spending a little unwind time at work had me thinking about Ramps (RTI)
and IFS geometry
An RTI test is designed to measure max "cross", i.e. how far can you get the
front and rear axles cross opposed to each other (and do so w/ jacking each
axle seperately - like one could do with two forklifts).
So - a flexible frame (or even broken) helps for this test :)
Anyway - an IFS does NOT act the same way as a beam (solid) axle does.
Pick up on end of a beam axle, the other end is "forced down" - hence stays
in contact with the ground. (piviot point -- lever geometry)
The sway bar - becasue its rotational pivot axis is bolted to the frame -
effectivle limits the angular difference between the two wheels - and does
so by "boxing" the movement with the end links. Remove the links
(aka disconnects) and that restriction is removed.
Pick up one end of an IFS, the other end "droops down". It is forced to the
ground merely because thats the only pivot point available. As the weight
load increases on that side of the vehicle, the distance it "droops"
is defined not by an angular difference with respect to the other tyre, but
by the spring rate of that wheel. A stiff spring would appear to be better
since:
a) it holds the diff further off the ground.
b) it limits the effective rotation of the frame - making the rear
axle (assuming a solid rear) twist less for a given height up
the ramp.
However - the wheel on the ramp needs a "soft" spring as not to twist the
frame.
So - like NASCAR - you can "cheat" on the test by using a soft spring on
the wheel thats going up the ramp and a stiff one on the wheel in the
ground :) Works in one direction only tho...
Now to the sway bar on an IFS...
The sway bar effectively limits the droop on the opposite side - but this
may be GOOD. It prevents the frame from getting too much "twist"
and potentially improving the RTI....
Anyway - all this sounds good in theory, but I have not tried it...
An additional thought on the spring issue.
In general - you want to run as soft a spring rate as you can w/o
losing roll stiffness - this is more of a racecar issue (read street truck)
However, soft springs bottom out - hence lost control (spring stiffness
is infinity - no movement if on the bump stops).
Some racecars have solved this by welding a tab on to the
middle of the sway bar up against a snubber. (the mounting
brackets need to be mega beefed as well).
Thus if the car experiences roll - the bar acts as a anti sway bar.
but if the car experiences "compression" - i.e. BOTH wheels
attempt to move up, then the bar rotates (as opposed to twisting)
and the tab hits the snubber and then - violia - additional spring
force comes into play.
This gives additional compression capacity - w/o additional rebound
capacity - and ONLY under both wheels experiencing
compression at the same time (unlike hydrulic bump stops)
Hmmm.....
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:29:21 -0600
From: "Larry D Walls"
Subject: Old Man EMU
To: "Toy4x4"
> >Colin Learning wrote:> >
> > "I'm looking for a new set of springs for
> > my 85 Toy. Has anybody had any experience
> > with OME?"
I've got a 1980 Hilux 4x4 that is a Japanese Model (right side steering),
and I put a Rancho 3" lift on it will I was Overseas. The lift was made for
US models but everything fit perfect. I ordered the lift from 4 whl parts
whlse in Cal. US cost was 150$ the same lift and part number in Japan was
1400$ US downtown. I'm changing out the frame now due to rust and the
replacement one is off of a 82 4x4 the only difference is where the torque
rod bolts up, both frames have the bolt holes for the steering box for either side.
The shackle eyelet holes are exactly the same, and the spring lengths are
the same also from what I was told the Aussie & Japan models are the same
so the springs should work.
Larry D Walls
------------------------------
-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:22:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Darrell Creeks
Subject: lift kits
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>From: "Wilbur M. Yegge"
>Subject: Leaf Springs
>To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>I recently purchased the NWOR 3.5 inch lift kit(front springs, rear
>add-a-leafs) which is described as "soft riding".
I would recommend not using add a leafs if you plan to do rock crawling. I
have snapped add a leafs in half and have seen others while on the Rubicon
Trail. I bought my lift through toyota performance out of four wheeler mag.
At the time I bought it there was a life time warranty. My springs are a
little stiff on the street but they flex great on the rocks.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 13 Mar 1997 08:57:00 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: rear springs & bumpstops
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:41 AM
OFFICE MEMO rear springs & bumpstops Date: 3/13/97
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>I was wondering what you would do about the metal piece that goes around the
>springs-and helps center the U bolts-if you were to modify the rear springs.
>Do you simply remove it? It looks like this would leave the U bolt loose.
>Any help would be apppreciated.
I bend mine straight up so the leaves are free to unfold as needed but
do not walk to the side much.
Beware though......doing so makes the packs even more supple and axle
wrap will result if you don't use a good torque rod.
I also discovered a new problem after I replaced my front NWOR (junk)
springs with some hybrids I built. I left the pack clamps open. I remove
my torque rod on the trail for more articulation and found this let my
axle "roll" a bit much under certain conditions.
There's a picture on my web page of me cleaning up the splines on
my front driveshaft after my front axle "rolled" forward some and
the driveshaft came apart.
Another learning experience ;-)
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:56:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel Richard Webster
Subject: Long spring and shackles
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I'm directing this towards Jay in regards to his longer spring conversion
on this list in the hope that others may also comment.
Are there differences in the location of the stock spring mounts between
4Runners and the pick up? By the photos of the conversion, it seems to me
that your stock spring mount was located on the frame where it was at an
angle to the ground, and on my 4Runner it seems to be located further
forward, on the horizontal part of the frame.
4Runner Pickup
__-- __--
________-- ________--*
*
Am I vaguely correct in this diagram?
I have yet to go measure my springs, but am assuming that they are the
same length as the pickup's. If I moved my spring mount further forward,
would the spring collide with the frame? If that could happen, would it
be possible to move the rear shackle back, achieving the same result, but
flipping the springs around front-to-back?
Also, at what point would the angle of a shock become too small to
effectively damper? By using simple Pythagorean geometry, that the
greater the angle from the vertical, the less the shock needs to extend to
allow larger vertical travel by the spring/axle, so how much angle is too
much? I assume that this question could be solved using vectors, but I do
not know where to start.
Any help is appreciated.
Daniel Webster
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:27:07 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Long spring and shackles
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
>Are there differences in the location of the stock spring mounts between
>4Runners and the pick up? By the photos of the conversion, it seems to me
>that your stock spring mount was located on the frame where it was at an
>angle to the ground, and on my 4Runner it seems to be located further
>forward, on the horizontal part of the frame.
>Am I vaguely correct in this diagram?
I believe you are correct. I know that when I put those springs on my
truck it moved the mount down to the angled part of the frame almost to
the point where it became flat. Or almost the width of the spring hanger.
>I have yet to go measure my springs, but am assuming that they are the
>same length as the pickup's. If I moved my spring mount further forward,
>would the spring collide with the frame? If that could happen, would it
>be possible to move the rear shackle back, achieving the same result, but
>flipping the springs around front-to-back?
I can't say for sure but just by comparing the lift springs I see for sale,
the 4runners and pickups have the same springs. It's been my observation
that the first 3-4 inches of the spring does not move very much in comparison
with the rest of the spring. I would probably go on and move the
mount forward where it needs to be and put a rubber bumper on
the corner of the frame if a problem arose. You can't really flip the
mazda springs front to rear because there is only 1/2" difference between
the ends, It's 25" to one end from the center hole and 25.5" to the
other end from the center hole. What you really need to be concerned with
is keeping the tire centered in the wheel well, It's TOUGH drilling a hole
in spring steel to move the location of the axle, I've done it to my front
springs but it cost me 4 good drill bits ... If you were to move the
rear shackle mounting point rearward, you'd be negating alot of the
droop gained by switching to the longer spring which was having more
spring in front of the axle to actually droop away. A toy spring is
biased length wise to the rear heavily. A mazda spring is nearly centered.
This creates the ability for more droop.
>Also, at what point would the angle of a shock become too small to
>effectively damper? By using simple Pythagorean geometry, that the
>greater the angle from the vertical, the less the shock needs to extend to
>allow larger vertical travel by the spring/axle, so how much angle is too
>much? I assume that this question could be solved using vectors, but I do
>not know where to start.
I've seen a chart somewhere that went into great detail about this, basically
you can just imagine the direction that the axle would travel and see if
a bump would effectively move the shock enough to get any travel out of
it. I have another friend who has greatly studied shock mounting and the
angles of shock effectivity I could give you his address if You like.
I've been trying to get him to join this list, he's got a 88 or 89 PU
with a 302/NV4500 in it ... For some reason < 30 degrees comes to mind.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 21 Mar 1997 11:33:10 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Long spring and shackles
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:16 AM
OFFICE MEMO Long spring and shackles Date: 3/21/97
Daniel Richard Webster wrote:
>I'm directing this towards Jay in regards to his longer spring conversion
>on this list in the hope that others may also comment.
>Are there differences in the location of the stock spring mounts between
>4Runners and the pick up?
I'm not quite sure without looking at a 4Runner.
>By the photos of the conversion, it seems to me
>that your stock spring mount was located on the frame where it was at an
>angle to the ground
Yes, this is definitely true.
>4Runner Pickup
> __-- __--
>________-- ________--*
> *
>Am I vaguely correct in this diagram?
For the truck, yes. 4Runner.....?
>I have yet to go measure my springs, but am assuming that they are the
>same length as the pickup's.
Yes.
>If I moved my spring mount further forward,
>would the spring collide with the frame?
Would depend on how close they are and your upward travel. Remember
that the spring will not move near as much at a point say 6" from the
front mount as it will move at the bump stop.
>If that could happen, would it
>be possible to move the rear shackle back, achieving the same result, but
>flipping the springs around front-to-back?
Jack went into the length differences of the two springs and how the
center hole location is positioned on each. Moving the rear shackle
backward to accomodate the extra length would not really work well.
Also.....moving the front mount forward also moves it down......part of
our gain in lift height.....which we need because the springs used are
much flatter.
>Also, at what point would the angle of a shock become too small to
>effectively damper?
A shock is most effective (provides most dampening) when stood straight
up (vertical) for a vertical acting force. We'll call this 90 degrees from
horzontal.
Now......we have to assume the suspension travels straight up and down
as it cycles. This is not exactly true, but let's assume it for now.
As we proceed to lay the shock down at some angle, our dampening rate
is effectively reduced. Get ready for trig...........
We can figure our dampening rate as:
Maximium rate * sine of the angle to horizontal
So.....if we set up our shocks for 60 degrees to horizontal, our effective
rate will then be about 87% the max rate (vertical). The farther you lay
down, the lighter the rate gets. However, depending on where your shock
mounts are located (distance from centerline of axle, etc.), you do start
to get some dampening of axle wrap. This is a small effect though.
The angle is too great when the dampening rate (vertically) diminshes
to the point where it is not sufficient to control the truck. The lighter
the valving on the shock, the quicker you will run out of dampening as
you start laying the shock over.
>By using simple Pythagorean geometry, that the
>greater the angle from the vertical, the less the shock needs to extend to
>allow larger vertical travel by the spring/axle, so how much angle is too
>much?
Yes, if the shock is at an angle, you can have axle travel that exceeds
the rod travel of the shock.
Several other points........
On Toys where one shock lays forward and one backward there are
some differences in how these two shocks behave as they move thru
their range of travel.
The one leaning backward (top toward rear of truck) actually needs a
bit more travel (than the one leaning forward) under droop due to the
axle moving forward under droop.
The one leaning forward may need to be able to compress a bit more
under compression due to the axle moving forward under compression.
And last......then I'll shut up.......on a forward leaning shock. Depending
on lean angle and spring geometry, it is possible for there to be a point
in the droop travel where the axle is moving forward and the shock is
being extended, that dampening goes to near zero. This would also
occur at the same point with the axle moving in compression. What
would happen at this instant in time is the the shock length would not
be changing, but the axle would still be moving horizonatally and
vertically. Usually not a big deal......but a thought anyhow.
Hope this helps......if not, scroll on and thanks for letting my babble.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:39:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel Richard Webster
Subject: Long springs & shocks (2)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Thanks for the reply, Jack.
After reading it, I went back to Jay's article and did some more thinking.
Will it be necessary to cut off the stock mount? If I left it on, would
it interfere with any side-side movement of the spring, or shouldn't the
spring be moving like that anyway? As for the lift achieved by such a
conversion, it seems to me that you guys achieved lift by moving the mount
down, and with longer shackles. Since the 4Runner's mount is already on
the flat part of the frame, no lift would be achieved by moving it
forward, and I think that fender rubbing problems might exist at
compression, even if I used longer shackles.
I'm going to go home and measure the length of the spring, to see if they
are the same as the pickup's, if they're not, I'll have to figure out
another way to give it a lift and more travel. (I was recently found to be
with two tires off the ground, and with no lockers, I was not happy).
Also, in reference to the shock, you hinted at 30 degrees being the limit.
Would that be from the vertical, or from the horizontal?
Thanks alot guys,
Daniel Webster
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:33:03 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Lift springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
David wrote:
>Ok, I tried calling several places today and just ended up getting
>frustrated. I have the rear 4" blocks on my truck and I have come to the
>conclusion: they suck! Not just a little, a whole lot! So, I am trying to
>find out about replacing them with some lift springs. I have been trying to
>keep up with the different posts on these things, but I guess they got lost
>in my head. I don't have a problem with putting something together myself,
>but this is my daily driver. It has to me a minimal of downtime. I would
>also like to talk to anyone who has getten rear springs instead of blocks
>with their lift on IFS truck. Info on add-a-lifts also welcome.
Depending upon your use and how much lift you want, for the money you
can't go wrong with running a set of mazda springs. They're ultra
soft and give lots of droop. Though this softness does not come
without a price, which in this case is the need to run a traction
bar to prevent kinking the soft springs. If you read Jay's article
on Off-Road.com, which can be gotten to from:
http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota/toyota.html
You can do it like Jay did and leave the original pair of spring mounts.
This would give you virtually no down time, If you were prepared to do the
swap when the time came.
Jay also mixed/matched some Downey springs he had lying around. I didn't
have any Downey springs so I bought two pairs of Mazda springs and
mixed/matched and cut leaves to make some nice springs packs. They work
great for the $90 I have in the springs and the $50 I have in a new set of
spring mounts. I chose
to remove the old spring mounts before welding on the new mounts, this took
about 1.5 hrs per side, which is why I suggest using the same method Jay did
if this is your only mode of transportation.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 21:27:09 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Suspension Travel
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Someone already mentioned that up travel for most stock trucks is
about 2 inches (it then hits the bumb stops).
I have also wondered on the percentage of droop to compression. If you
think you will be doing high speed with jumps I think you want more
droop.
I will let everyone know what type of answer I get from National
Springs. I will be contacting them next week on the correct procedures
to follow to have them build me some custom springs. If clearances on
my truck work (1985 x-cab) I plan on haveing about 7 inches of droop and
compression. I do not no the clearance problems for the front end (any
help Jack or Jay) I plan on having the front center bolt 2 inches
forward with about 5 inches over stock lift.
Known item that need attention. Drag link will need to be shortend and
I will have to find something for a torque rod (some type of collapsible
rod using splines or machined fit inner&outer rod.)
I will post my findings once I talk with National. If anyone could come
up with any questions that I might ask please let me know.
Jack or Jay, did either one of you talk with Don Carter (I think) in
Moab. He had a blue 1985 truck with red scallops(sp). I guess he has a
National Spring lift. I saw him down there but at the time I did not
know about his suspension. His truck is in the June 1996 4Wheel and
Sport Utility.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 09:49:10 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Suspension Travel
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Jay, thanks for the info. I would not have thought about the drag link
binding. I do have aftermarket drag link and steering arm. And I have
broke 3 steering arms so far also.
One thing on the Torque rod though. I have it in my mind that when
braking or axle wrap you will be putting a force on the Torque rod that
would try to bend it not push or pull it. So wouldn't a splined rod
still do what it is supposed to??
Jay, how much droop do you get before your drag link binds? Do you have
steering arm with ball on top?
One of my plans will probably put a single main leaf in each corner with
some spacer leaves (to take up space under main leaf) then with jack in
each corner start jacking up and down trying to find all the problems
before having the springs made. Very long process.
I also hear that custom springs cost between 180-200 each. I think
worth the price if I could get a softer ride. More travel would just be
an extra benefit.
National custom springs normally have about 10 leaves. Would having
more leaves help with axle wrap even though spring rate is soft. People
I know with nationals say yes (it is also one of the question I have for
them).
Any other info, question, ideas on custom spings would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 13:30:14 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: SUSPENSION TRAVEL
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Darrell Creeks wrote:
> I have an '83, I get 9" up and 9" down. (articulation that is)
The afore mentioned 2" was measured between the bump stop on the
top of the springs and the bump stop on the frame. Your measurements
must be from the tire to the fenderwell, which is not really an
accurate method of comparison. I was on an RTI ramp a few weeks
ago and my rear suspension at full droop was measured to be 11-3/4"
between the spring bumpstop and the frame bumpstop.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 23:40:28 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Suspension Travel
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Tony wrote:
>Jay, thanks for the info. I would not have thought about the drag link
>binding. I do have aftermarket drag link and steering arm. And I have
>broke 3 steering arms so far also.
I think you've mentioned that you have steering arms with the ball on
top. Jay and I have discussed this several times at length, and each
time have concluded that the ball being on top of the steering arm and
the way the draglink is designed actually lessens the degree of angle
it can rotate through before force is put on the steering arm. Which
results in it breaking. YMMV ...
>One thing on the Torque rod though. I have it in my mind that when
>braking or axle wrap you will be putting a force on the Torque rod that
>would try to bend it not push or pull it. So wouldn't a splined rod
>still do what it is supposed to??
Nope. It's not trying to bend it at all. Picture the axle housing trying
to rotate fore and aft under the forces of acceleration and braking.
>One of my plans will probably put a single main leaf in each corner with
>some spacer leaves (to take up space under main leaf) then with jack in
>each corner start jacking up and down trying to find all the problems
>before having the springs made. Very long process.
That is a very long and costly process, National is not exactly a
peach of a company to do business with, I wish you luck. Unfortunately
most people I've heard of buying springs from them were never completely
satisfied seeing how they spent nearly $1000 for a set of springs ...
>I also hear that custom springs cost between 180-200 each. I think
>worth the price if I could get a softer ride. More travel would just be
>an extra benefit.
A soft ride is easily achieved by buying brand 'X' springs and
adding/removing leaves from the packs. Which YOU can do and save
yourself hundreds of dollars!
>National custom springs normally have about 10 leaves. Would having
>more leaves help with axle wrap even though spring rate is soft. People
>I know with nationals say yes (it is also one of the question I have for
>them).
Yes, having more 'mass' in the pack will help slightly with axle wrap.
>Any other info, question, ideas on custom spings would be greatly
>appreciated. Thanks
Personally, I'd never spend $1000 for a set of springs ... I'd buy brand
'X' springs and mix match leaves until I found what *I* wanted, not
what National Spring *thought* I wanted ...
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 15:36:37 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Explorer Pro Comp
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Colin Learning wrote:
>
> Has anyone had any experience with the 3 or 4 inch front Pro Comp leaf
> springs. I'm just curious as to how the ride ride is.
My buddy has the 3" springs on his 85 p/u. He likes 'em a lot. I've
only ridden in the truck once, but I don't remember the ride as being to
stiff, they seemed pretty cool. His main reason for buying them was
price. I think he paid $100 for the pair at 4WPW.
Scott
- --
Scott A. Wilson __o __o __o __o
Santa Clara, CA _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_
swilson@pacbell.net (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_)
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:17:02 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Suspension (on hold)
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>Thanks Jack and Jay for your input on possible upgrade to National
>Springs. I am putting them of for a while.
No problem!
>I decided to call Marlin instead and order my dual x-fer case.
Cool !
>Marlin also knows Don Carter (person I mentioned who had some National
>Springs made) I will be trying to get in touch with him to find out how
>he likes them and if he thinks they are worth it.
This is just *MY* opinion but no matter what Marlin says about that guys
truck, I've seen his pics in the mags. You'll never have as much wheel
travel as I currently have going back with a set of springs that are
stock toyota length. I really hate to keep pushing swapping to the longer
mazda springs but it's just really simple mathematics.
The longer 2WD mazda springs are 5 or 6" longer (can't remember exactly
how much) but most importantly by moving the forward spring mount
forward to put the center pin of the spring pack at the middle of the
wheel well, you've given yourself the opportunity for much more droop
by adding the 5-6" to the front end of the spring.
I'm not really trying to brag but if the pics of that truck with the
$1000 National Springs is the best that suspension can do then I'm
beating him by a fair amount with my junk yard special mazda springs.
And I'm currently working on adding a buggy leaf in the rear for even more
drooping ability.
Like I said, these are just *MY* opinions based on my experiences from
playing with various springs and spring packs. If you're looking for
something that you can just bolt in then maybe the mazda springs aren't
for you, it's a fair bit of work adding the new mounts and building the
spring packs, etc. but it sure is CHEAP in comparison with a set of
National Springs ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 10 Apr 1997 15:03:41 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Suspension Travel
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 2:47 PM
OFFICE MEMO Suspension Travel Date: 4/10/97
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>Jay, thanks for the info. I would not have thought about the drag link
>binding. I do have aftermarket drag link and steering arm. And I have
>broke 3 steering arms so far also.
Sounds like you may be traveling far enough to put it in a bind and
causing it to break. I know mine flexes in the narrow portion. I can
see where the paint has flaked a bit in that area.
>One thing on the Torque rod though. I have it in my mind that when
>braking or axle wrap you will be putting a force on the Torque rod that
>would try to bend it not push or pull it. So wouldn't a splined rod
>still do what it is supposed to??
No it pushes and pulls as Jack described.
>Jay, how much droop do you get before your drag link binds?
Not exactly sure and yours will vary based on the springs you
are using, axle (re)location, draglink shape and adjustment,
steering arm, etc. You'll have to check yours to see where it
binds.
>Do you have steering arm with ball on top?
No.
>One of my plans will probably put a single main leaf in each corner with
>some spacer leaves (to take up space under main leaf) then with jack in
>each corner start jacking up and down trying to find all the problems
>before having the springs made. Very long process.
Yes, but a good idea. I did this on the rear when I was prototyping
the Mazda spring swap.
>I also hear that custom springs cost between 180-200 each. I think
>worth the price if I could get a softer ride. More travel would just be
>an extra benefit.
National quoted me $900 not including u-bolts, bushings, etc. I started
to order the fronts but realized that I might be paying $450 for springs
that still were not what I wanted. I went searching for other ways......
hence the Mazda swap.
>National custom springs normally have about 10 leaves. Would having
>more leaves help with axle wrap even though spring rate is soft. People
>I know with nationals say yes (it is also one of the question I have for
>them).
Yes, the will serve to make the spring more progressive and reduce
axle wrap a bit.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:35:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Rear droop
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> A while back I saw a discussion about a pretty common rear end sag
> on 4Runners/pickups. Now that I'm interested, I haven't seen a word
> in months.
I wouldn't recommend those 'helper' springs as they are expensive and
don't give much lift, rather they just seem to make it ride rougher.
Add-a-leafs are a different story, as they can definatley give you some
lift, but the short ones can be hard on springs (or so I've heard) I never
had any problems with mine, but then again I only ran them for a year.
The general consensus (that I gathered anyway) is that if you only need
some lift, like say an inch or so, then longer shackles are the best thing
to do--easiest, cheapest, don't effect the ride, and they can increase
travel some.
If you need more lift (like I did) you might consider a .5-1" block with
longer shackles, or a 'long' add-a-leaf. I've only seen one that's
designed to work without removing any other leaves, but it was 140
bucks...not cheap. There are probably cheaper ones out there.
If you need even more lift, probably the best solution is a set of 2"
springs.
as usual, YMMV
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:58:32 -0600
From: rob and karen boyle
Subject: shackles and procomp 85 4RUNNER
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
thank you for your responce, Jay Kopycinski. I had allready made the lift
shackles before I got your responce. Mine are close to what you suggested.
I used 2''x 5/16 stock w/ braces and holes at 6.5 '' on center. 3/4 bolts
fit tite in the new energy bushings. the truck sits dead level. (thats pro
comp 4'' lift up front, black diamond add a leafs in back) the draw back I
noticed is reduced departure angle.
the Pro Comp lift was a breeze to install. I think a torch and a welder made
it go much faster. removing the old springs seemed impossible, until we
heated them up enough to melt the old bushings. the new springs went right
on. another time saver was welding on the new bump stop extenders, rather
then drilling and bolting.I was also able to save time on the brake line
relocate. the kit gives you little pieces of angle iron to bolt on a little
lower than the stock mounting point. to save the hassle of loosening those
brake line fittings i sawsalled them off and remounted them lower with a
little weld. the ride is great with the new lift, tracks straight as an
arrow. not to hard a ride, certainly better than those stock front springs
always bottoming out on the bump stops. toyota's rule
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:03:06 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: To Poly or not to Poly
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
spadams@FORTLEWIS.EDU wrote:
also what is the general consensus on poly bushing, do they
> hold up as the ads say they do?
I've had great luck, as have many people I've talked to, with poly
urethane. Poly bushings on leaf springs absorb much more shock than
rubber, and leave you with a smoother ride. It's much firmer than
rubber, so if you want to improve your ON-road handling poly on the
anti-sway bar is the way to go. (this may hinder you off road though,
which is why I remove my anti-sway bar when I know I'll be going
off-road) I have not noticed any loss of articulation from the poly on
my leaf springs, in fact I consider them one of the best improvements I
have done to my truck.
Scott
- --
*****************************************************
Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
88 4Runner SR5 V6
Santa Clara, CA
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:34:40 -0400
From: "T. Ryan"
Subject: NWOR heavy duty replacement springs
To: "Toy ota"
While we're on the subject of sagging rear springs i wanted to say that i
put the nwor heavy duty replacement springs on my 84 4runner
because my truck had 209k and a lot of the original leaves were broken in
the front and rear. Toyota wanted outrageous money for factory replacement
springs and i didn't really want to lift the truck
i just wanted to make it able to pass CT inspection(nazis!)
Anyway, the nwor parts are well made and a good value but they
really are heavy duty. The only time my truck rides nearly as smooth as an
ifs truck is when i have about five people in it. I have the springs on all
four corners and they raised the truck about an inch.
When i put my soft top on it becomes even stiffer! Since it's ususally me
driving alone and on the highway i was wondering if i might be able to
remove a leaf or the overload leaf to make the truck ride better. Any ideas
anyone?
I think on my next 4runner i will just replace a couple of the main leaves
on the pack. I found a shop that builds springs for big trucks but can cut
you replacement leaves in any rate you want for about $35 a leave.
T. Ryan
84 4Runner
Bristol, CT
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 2 May 1997 08:23:03 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: NWOR heavy duty replacement
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:03 AM
OFFICE MEMO NWOR heavy duty replacement springs Date: 5/2/97
"T. Ryan" wrote:
snip
>Since it's ususally me driving alone and on the highway i was
>wondering if i might be able to remove a leaf or the overload
leaf to make the truck ride better. Any ideas anyone?
Yes, you could try removing the overload leaf and it should
soften things up. Expect to lose 1/2 to 1" of lift when you
remove it. Also, you may experience an increase in spring
wrap......and......if the pack is sprung lightly enough, could have
spring kinking problems. It sounds like your pack is plenty
stiff enough though.
Another possibility would be to remove the bottom spring
leaf and leave the load leaf in place. You might have to
experiment a bit.
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 23:37:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Rear Springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
A while back , somebody mentioned something about Chevy add-a-leaves working
on an 86 & up truck in the rear if you cut them a little. Well, a friend
just gave me a set of 3" leaves for a 95 Chevy. I think the width is right,
but the doo need to be cut down for sure. I have another spare set of Toy
springs, and thought I would try to put together some springs to get rid of
my blocks. Also, I remember either Jack or Jay used Rancho leaves in their
Mazda spring swap. Any help you can give would be appreciated.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 23:46:31 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Rear Springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
>A while back , somebody mentioned something about Chevy add-a-leaves working
>on an 86 & up truck in the rear if you cut them a little. Well, a friend
>just gave me a set of 3" leaves for a 95 Chevy. I think the width is right,
>but the doo need to be cut down for sure. I have another spare set of Toy
>springs, and thought I would try to put together some springs to get rid of
>my blocks. Also, I remember either Jack or Jay used Rancho leaves in their
>Mazda spring swap. Any help you can give would be appreciated.
Nope, I didn't use any Rancho springs in my swap, my packs are all Mazda
leaves. I'm sure you could cut one of the leaves down and use it to
gain the lift back from removing your blocks but I don't think you'd
be very happy with their articulation. All the Rancho packs I've
seen used .280" or .300" thick leaves which don't have the habit of
flexing real well when there's lots of leaves in the pack.
What makes the Downey rear springs flex well is that the leaves are
much thinner than a stock toyota pack or most aftermarket packs.
Anyways, I'm getting sidetracked, to answer your question. Yes, you
can do that. Here's what I'd try, if the Rancho leaves have a fair bit
of arch to them I'd remove the stock overload leaf from your pack
if you haven't already (it greatly limits compression). Then I'd cut one
of the Rancho leaves down to about 26-28" in length and have it be
the bottom leaf in your pack. Just for comparison, the lower leaf
in my rear springs are 24" long but are .240" thick, by making your
lowest leaf (the most important leaf in controlling ride height,
assuming the leaves are either all the same thickness or get thinner
from top to bottom) a bit longer than mine, you should gain a bit of
height from it and still maintain some flexibility. This is assuming
you're not wanting to gain 4" or more from an add-a-leaf and
expect it to flex at all ... Just don't cut the leaves with a torch !
You can always make the leaves shorter but you can't make them longer,
if it isn't quite the ride height you're looking for (after bolting
them up and riding them to let them settle for a few days) pull them
back off and cut an 1" off each end, this will make the pack sit
higher, but less flexibility does come with this added height.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 23:49:44 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Rear Springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I wrote:
>You can always make the leaves shorter but you can't make them longer,
>if it isn't quite the ride height you're looking for (after bolting
>them up and riding them to let them settle for a few days) pull them
>back off and cut an 1" off each end, this will make the pack sit
>higher, but less flexibility does come with this added height.
Oh yeah, don't forget to taper the end of whatever leaves you end up
cutting or they'll cut into the upper/(possibly lower too, depending
upon compression ability) leaves in the pack. You can't exactly do
the fancy diamond cut thing at home but a few hits with a grinder
will do the job.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:27:24 -0400
From: WartHog
Subject: Rear Springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>
> A while back , somebody mentioned something about Chevy add-a-leaves working
> on an 86 & up truck in the rear if you cut them a little. Well, a friend
> just gave me a set of 3" leaves for a 95 Chevy.
This is one of the things I have been resisting answering to.
If the spring is the same width, and the arch ( radius ) is the same ,
then you should be able to add them ( one on each side and in the same
position ).
You wanna make baby sit higher and be tighter than "stock"?
Go to a bone yard and finds a spring pak that is of the same width as
the Toy, then take them home and stick em in. add leaves from the top
down and make sure they are, on both ends, shorter than the ones above,
and longer than the ones below. The free radius may matter little, as
its the radius when clamped that matters, not the rad when laying on the
ground and released.
Therein lies the rub: My experience in spring work has been limited ( so
to say ) to mustangs. Mu best set up had Chrystler full sized wagon
springs in her ( three leafe instead of the stock four leave ). Baby
would hook up on the launch as well as carry a load.
Untill the Toy is out of warrenty, I cant play with her much. But, do I
love the way the spring wrap plays. Shw wraps to push down to push me
forward. When I do get to play with her mechanics more, this is a trait
I wish to retain.
Quit looking for the "absolute answer". It dont exist.
Its too late, and I got to get up too early.
More coherience later.
Mark
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 5 May 1997 09:40:54 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Mazda rear spring conversio
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:39 AM
OFFICE MEMO Mazda rear spring conversion Date: 5/5/97
A number of people have asked me about details of the Mazda rear
spring conversion. I now know of at least four people who have
completed the swap and two others gathering parts to do it. I
found a couple of photos that show my rear axle articulation
before and after the spring swap so I put them up on the web
for anyone who might be interested.
You can find them at:
http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota/images/comp.jpg
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:58:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Mazda rear spring conversio
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
After looking at this, I an kinda suprised. I don't mean to brag, but I am
pretty sure the 4" blocks on the rear of my truck allow more droop than that.
Once I stuck a stick straight across the bottom lip of the fender in the
rear, and the tire was a good inch or more below that. As for compression, I
did not change the bump stops at all, and my 33's will go as far as you can
get the tire in the wheel well, and not rub. I need to measure so I can give
specific measurements.
Anyway, point being: if this is all the Mazda spring conversion allows, I
will have to pass. I guess blocks are not all that bad...
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 5 May 1997 09:39:33 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Rear Springs
To: "Chris Reeves" ,
Subject: Time: 9:36 AM
OFFICE MEMO Rear Springs Date: 5/5/97
Chris Reeves wrote:
>> ... Just don't cut the leaves with a torch !
>Is there a big problem with this? My only other options are a grinder
>or a hacksaw.
I've used a chop saw and a metal cutting blade in my table saw. If you have
portable circular saw, pick up a 6-7" metal blade and use that combo.
>I picked up my Mazda springs last week, one 4 leaf pack
>and one 5 leaf pack.
Hmmmmm....all the ones I've seen were 3 leaf plus the overload.
What year were these from?
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 21:54:15 -0400
From: "R. W. 'Butch' Stiles"
Subject: Rear Springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Chris Reeves wrote:
>
> > ... Just don't cut the leaves with a torch !
>
> Is there a big problem with this? My only other options are a grinder =
> or a hacksaw. I picked up my Mazda springs last week, one 4 leaf pack =
> and one 5 leaf pack. The spring hangers should be in by Wednesday. =
> They were $26 a piece.
>
> chris reeves
Chris,
If you don't need any spring in your springs then you can have at them
with a torch. Remember, these things are specially heat treated
to make them springs in the first place, going after them with a torch
will remove that tempering and make them useless.
- --
Butch Stiles
rokitman@erols.com
Just as it says, "Rocket Man"
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:58:56 -0700
From: "Allen Jensen"
Subject: Sagging 4Runner solution
To:
After griping long enough about my 4Runner's rear end dragging, I came
across a set of Downey 1.5" lift replacement springs. A friend and I
installed them this weekend and what a difference it makes (Well, I was
just the assistant). Turned out my truck was sagging at least 1/2" below
normal, because the 1.5" lift springs brought the back end up 2.25". Then
we turned the front torsion bars up an inch to match. what a difference.
The truck rides smoother than with the stock springs, doesn't bottom out
anymore, and looks great. Now I can hardly wait to get Thumper into the
hills. Thanks Chris for the help!!
Allen Jensen
Southern California
aj@oc-net.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:25:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: OEM spring sag
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-05-06 13:54:23 EDT, you write:
> Mark:
> >While crawling under my truck yesterday I noticed a very slight upward
> >pointing V in the front leaf springs, right behind the axle, is this a
> >bad thing? How much arch are the stock springs (front) suposed to have
> >to them? (mine are arched !up! about 1/2")
>
> I'm not sure if it's a -bad- thing, but it is common. My springs curve up
> as do many of the solid-axle trucks I've looked at.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Barney McNamara
Mark, If the V in your spring is like an actual bend in the spring, you have
a kinked spring. The spring sometimes do sag, but the metal should have
curves in it, not angular bends. Either way, sagging or kinked,l sounds like
you should get some new springs.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:45:08 -0600
From: "ARTHUR RUMPF"
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #167
To:
> In a message dated 97-05-04 20:50:56 EDT, you write:
>
> >
> > > ... Just don't cut the leaves with a torch !
> >
> > Is there a big problem with this? My only other options are a grinder
> > or a hacksaw.
> > chris reeves
The torch will take the temper out of the spring in the area of the cut. A
chop saw works well, even better if you keep the cutting line cool with a
small stream of water from a spray bottle. If the area ahead of the cut
gets too hot (turns blue) it can cause the metal to harden further and slow
down the cutting substantially. Spring steel is weird stuff. I was drilling
out a center hole for a larger center bolt in a leaf once and got it too
hot. The bit stopped dead and wouldn't drill any farther. Had to start over
with a new leaf. :-(
Art
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 08:18:04 -0700
From: wgirindra@bbs.fronet.com (Wilkin Girindra)
Subject: Buggy Springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Just saw the post regarding the buggy springs. A friend of mine
has had the buggy springs on the back of his Toyota for about
5 months now, and I will be doing it in the next week or so.
I'm not sure if I would do it on the front of a Toyota but
on the back it is one of the most impressive modifications one
can do.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:12:29 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Mazda rear spring conversion
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Jay wrote:
> http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota/images/comp.jpg
>
> _______________________________________
> Jay Kopycinski
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>
>After looking at this, I an kinda suprised. I don't mean to brag, but I am
>pretty sure the 4" blocks on the rear of my truck allow more droop than that.
>Once I stuck a stick straight across the bottom lip of the fender in the
>rear, and the tire was a good inch or more below that. As for compression, I
>did not change the bump stops at all, and my 33's will go as far as you can
>get the tire in the wheel well, and not rub. I need to measure so I can give
>specific measurements.
>Anyway, point being: if this is all the Mazda spring conversion allows, I
>will have to pass. I guess blocks are not all that bad...
I find it very hard to believe you have that much droop/compression ability
that requires as little force to be put on the springs to cause them to
do so with stock springs. I think you are deceived by the angle of the photo's
of Jay's truck crossing the Golden Crack. Here is a much closer shot of
my truck with my suspension drooped out some, it will droop more, but is
not shown in this photo.:
http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota/images/moabj6.jpg
Even at that point it will pass your stick test with ease.
Granted that stock springs do run very flat and that is what makes a good
drooping/compressing spring is it's ability to easily flex in both directions
which a spring with lots of arch (i.e. lift) cannot do easily.
- jack
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:22:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Mazda rear spring conversion
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-05-07 15:13:13 EDT, Jack wrote:
> I find it very hard to believe you have that much droop/compression ability
> that requires as little force to be put on the springs to cause them to
> do so with stock springs. I think you are deceived by the angle of the
photo's
> of Jay's truck crossing the Golden Crack. Here is a much closer shot of
> my truck with my suspension drooped out some, it will droop more, but is
> not shown in this photo.:
> http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota/images/moabj6.jpg
> Even at that point it will pass your stick test with ease.
>
> Granted that stock springs do run very flat and that is what makes a good
> drooping/compressing spring is it's ability to easily flex in both
> directions
> which a spring with lots of arch (i.e. lift) cannot do easily.
>
> - jack
I think I was misunderstood. I did not mean to say that Jay's articulation
was lacking in any way. On the contrary, it obviously has me beat by a few
inches. My point was actually two-fold. First, I was simply stating how
much travel I have, and the stick test was the best measurement I could give
off hand. Second, I have been complaining about the blocks on the rear of my
truck, and have wanted to change to something else. I had figured that this
spring swap would make a significant difference. I guess I underestimated my
truck, and overestimated the swap. I was trying to say that the cost, time,
and work that would go into the swap would only gain about 2" more droop, and
this does not seem worth it to me. I think I could get this much from the
buggy leaf setup, and use parts I have around the house.
I guess I need to get a picture or two of my truck at full droop/compression
and scan them. Then I can get some opinions other than my own. Jack, I will
say that the droop on my truck is about where yours is at the site you
mentioned. That was just playing on a little mound, the best place I could
find yesterday. That is with stock springs, stock shackles, overload leaf in
place, and 3.5" blocks.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:41:47 -0700
From: wgirindra@bbs.fronet.com (Wilkin Girindra)
Subject: Buggy Spring
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Hello Jay here are some answers to the buggy spring. I have been chatting
with Jack about the buggy springs for about a month now. Soon I will have
pictures of the buggy springs and 1/2 doors that I can send you (friend just
bought a scanner). Sorry Jack that the pics have taken so long.
Anyways here is how my buddy did the buggy springs.
1.First you have to find a pair of Toy springs and take
the main leafs out of both packs and cut them just past
the center bolt. That is the length you will need. He has
a 1983 shortbox and I have a 1981 shortbox.
2. He took his box off and drilled straight down through the
frame. I'm not sure about this way. On the early toys the
frame has some sort of internal bracing that makes drilling
straight through very difficult so he had to cut open the frame
on the inside. By the way the drilling is right above the axle on
the frame. This puts the shackle close to stock area in the back.
2 Grade 5 bolts with sleeves where used for the mounting of the
buggy spring. One centering pin was also used. The spring is
mounted under a sandwich plate and voila you have a buggy spring.
I've heard of another way, Rocky Mountain Off Road Specialities in Colorado
is mounting the spring with U-bolts around the frame and a centering pin.
I might be wrong but I'm a bit uncomfortable with this method in terms
of the clamping on the frame. I'm not going this route.
I'm going to mount the buggy spring a third way by welding a mount to
the frame. When I have pics I will scan them and send them to you.
As far as problems or difficulties. Off road it works awesome.
Droop is excellent.On road there is no problem if you drive reasonably.
If any other questions feel free to e-mail me directly. The 1/2 door design is
very cool and functional.
Wil
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 8 May 1997 16:02:00 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Buggy Spring
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:40 PM
OFFICE MEMO Buggy Spring Date: 5/8/97
wgirindra@bbs.fronet.com (Wilkin Girindra) wrote:
>Hello Jay here are some answers to the buggy spring. I have been chatting
>with Jack about the buggy springs for about a month now. Soon I will have
>pictures of the buggy springs and 1/2 doors that I can send you (friend just
>bought a scanner). Sorry Jack that the pics have taken so long.
snip instructions for mounting buggy spring
>As far as problems or difficulties. Off road it works awesome.
>Droop is excellent.On road there is no problem if you drive reasonably.
Wil......thanks for the feedback. I have a couple more questions for you.
First how do you get the frame-to-tire clearance for so much articulation?
My current rear suspension has the capability of about 2" more droop that
I cannot currently use in articulation because the tire in compression hits
the frame rail.
Also, if you use just the main leaf for the buggy spring and make it fairly
long, how do you keep it from coming into use prior to the leaf pack fully
stretching out?
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 00:03:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Buggy Spring
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-05-08 21:35:23 EDT, Jay Kopycinski wrote :
> First how do you get the frame-to-tire clearance for so much articulation?
> My current rear suspension has the capability of about 2" more droop that
> I cannot currently use in articulation because the tire in compression
hits
> the frame rail.
I was thinking about this too. The only solutions I see are 1.) wider axles,
or changing to wheels that have more backspacing. Well< I guess you could
get real crazy and re-route the frame inward....
> Also, if you use just the main leaf for the buggy spring and make it
fairly
> long, how do you keep it from coming into use prior to the leaf pack fully
> stretching out?
>
I don't see where this is a factor. Is there a problem when the spring comes
into action?. I was thinking of using some sort of stopper to limit the
buggy spring from getting to close to the frame. This was so it could not
sag, and would make sure that at rest, there would be no difference that the
stock hanger.
This brings out my other question: Is there a problem with lateral forces? I
feel that this is the main concern safety wise. Whoever mentioned a special
locating hanger, that sounds the best. that way you could somehow brace it
to keep it lined up with the frame. For some reason, I think that 2 bolts
and one centering pin is not enough.
David
DRM0332aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:30:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Buggy Spring
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> I don't see where this is a factor. Is there a problem when the spring comes
> into action?. I was thinking of using some sort of stopper to limit the
> buggy spring from getting to close to the frame. This was so it could not
> sag, and would make sure that at rest, there would be no difference that the
> stock hanger.
>
> This brings out my other question: Is there a problem with lateral forces? I
> feel that this is the main concern safety wise. Whoever mentioned a special
> locating hanger, that sounds the best. that way you could somehow brace it
> to keep it lined up with the frame. For some reason, I think that 2 bolts
> and one centering pin is not enough.
Here's a thought: Try welding on two small pieces of metal on either
side of the buggy spring. The idea is just to have it hang down enoug
to keep the buggy spring from moving side to side at rest, but not so
much that it limits side to side movement when the suspension is fully
drooped. Also, if you made the braces hang down enough, you could run a
bolt through these two places, but directly below the buggy leaf to keep
it from moving downwards (when you're on road).
Well, it's a thought, anyway.
What I'm curious about though, is how much a buggy leaf might affect
spring/axle wrap. It seems as if you had the buggy leaf effectively
pushing down on the shackle, it'd be more likely to allow spring/axle
wrap. To those who have done it, what's it really like (real world)?
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 9 May 1997 09:02:53 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Buggy Spring
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:23 AM
OFFICE MEMO Buggy Spring Date: 5/9/97
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>Hey everyone, I have not seen the article about these springs but
>reading the mail it sounds like your putting a small single spring above
>your rear spring that your shackle bolts to. When your spring droops to
>its limits the single spring starts to bend allowing more droop.
That's correct. There's an article in the June 4-Wheel & Off-Road showing
the M.O.R.E. buggy spring kit for a Wrangler.
>If I am right Jay might want to check around with some hard core jeepers
>down in arizona. Last year some Arizona big boys where up at Moab jeep
>safari with them installed. Worked real well. Jay, if you ask around
>you will probably find someone local down there with them. A guy I know
>at the local Toyota dealer hear has a friend with them on his toy. I
>will try and contact him to get his installation procedures.
I think you're thinking of Shannon Campbell who lives here in Gilbert.
He used a buggy spring on the front axle of the Jeep he used to own.
He won the Fourwheeler Tough Truck contest with it last year.
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>I was thinking about this too. The only solutions I see are 1.) wider axles,
>or changing to wheels that have more backspacing. Well< I guess you could
>get real crazy and re-route the frame inward....
I currently have tire clearance problems that are limiting my available
travel in the rear. I may go to the IFS truck wider rear axle but will have
to cut my fenders to keep the tires from hitting. Changing the frame may
be a little extreme.
>> Also, if you use just the main leaf for the buggy spring and make it
>> long, how do you keep it from coming into use prior to the leaf pack fully
>> stretching out?
>I don't see where this is a factor. Is there a problem when the spring comes
>into action?. I was thinking of using some sort of stopper to limit the
>buggy spring from getting to close to the frame. This was so it could not
>sag, and would make sure that at rest, there would be no difference that the
>stock hanger.
Yeah, the stopper is a good idea.
What happens if you have the buggy spring start working too early.....I
think you lose the progressive nature of your leaf spring system which
is one advantage of a leaf system over many of the coil systems.
>This brings out my other question: Is there a problem with lateral forces? I
>feel that this is the main concern safety wise. Whoever mentioned a special
>locating hanger, that sounds the best. that way you could somehow brace it
>to keep it lined up with the frame. For some reason, I think that 2 bolts
>and one centering pin is not enough.
Most all buggy spring setups I have seen use a panhard or similar locating
bar to keep the axle from shifting to the side too much.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 9 May 1997 15:49:29 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: 3 inch springs, Downey or N
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:38 PM
OFFICE MEMO 3 inch springs, Downey or Northwest? Date: 5/9/97
Dr. Karl Bellve wrote:
>I am about to buy 3 inch springs for my 1985 4Runner. I had Northwest
>Off Road 2 inch spring system (rear add a leaf) on my old 1985 4Runner. I
>broke a leaf in the front and one of the rear add a leafs driving in deep
>sand on Assategue (MD). I am now going to get the 3 inch springs for my
>new truck either from Downey or Northwest. I think I am leaning towards
>Downey because they are NHK springs and seemed to be reinforced better.
>Anyone have opinions on this?
The NWOR ones are very stiff. They use only three thick leaves. They are
cheap though. The Downey ones are better but will sag out over time.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 22:06:25 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: 3 inch springs, Downey or Northwest?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Dr. Karl Bellve wrote:
"I am about to buy 3 inch springs for my
1985 4Runner...I am now going to get the
3 inch springs for my new truck either
from Downey or Northwest. I think I am
leaning towards Downey because they are
NHK springs and seemed to be reinforced
better."
If your choice is only Downey or NWOR, I would go Downey.
Reasons:
1. I have Downey 3" front springs in my truck now. I like 'em a lot. I
think they're a great spring for the price, and I think the Downey people
run the operation pretty fairly (aberrations aside).
2. NWOR seems to be run by a bunch of charlatans. I've never heard a good
word spoken or written about them. Maybe if we don't give them our
business, they will either wise up or go out of business.
However, if my choice was wide-open, I think I would go with the Alcan
springs from Rocky Mountain Off-Road. Pricey at three hundred frogskins a
pair, but quality built to your specs. Five-leaf fronts and seven-leaf
rears, military-wrap spring eyes, greasable teflon inserts, urethane
bushings, and your choice of lift heights - anything from 0" - 4".
- Nick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:31:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: 3 inch springs, Downey or Northwest?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> sand on Assategue (MD). I am now going to get the 3 inch springs for my
> new truck either from Downey or Northwest. I think I am leaning towards
> Downey because they are NHK springs and seemed to be reinforced better.
> Anyone have opinions on this?
I was kinda curious too.. and I couldn't really decide (between Downey
and Skyjacker--I'd heard a few random negative things about the NWOR),
and I went Skyjacker. Really, the only reason was because I sorta
wanted more than 3" of lift (I ordered the 4" rear springs). I'll let
you know how they do when I get them on.
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:16:59 +0000
From: "Mike Williams"
Subject: 3 inch springs, Downey or Northwest
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Dr. Karl Bellve wrote:
>
> "I am about to buy 3 inch springs for my
> 1985 4Runner...I am now going to get the
> 3 inch springs for my new truck either
> from Downey or Northwest. I think I am
> leaning towards Downey because they are
> NHK springs and seemed to be reinforced
> better."
>
I have to agree with both Jay and Nick - NWOR has stiff springs. I
switched from an old style 5" Skyjacker lift (tightly clamped, no
polyurethane pads) to a NWOR "soft-ride" system. IMHO I just wasted
my money; I didn't gain anything but a lower truck and a stiffer
ride.
Nick wrote:
> 2. NWOR seems to be run by a bunch of charlatans. I've never heard a good
> word spoken or written about them. Maybe if we don't give them our
> business, they will either wise up or go out of business.
I have been sorely disappointed in the (lack of) customer service
that NWOR provides its customers. I think NWOR should change its
motto to "The bitterness of poor customer service remains long after
the sweetness of low price is forgotten"
As has been stated before everything that NWOR sells can be bought
elsewhere.
Nick also wrote:
> However, if my choice was wide-open, I think I would go with the Alcan
> springs from Rocky Mountain Off-Road. Pricey at three hundred frogskins a
> pair, but quality built to your specs. Five-leaf fronts and seven-leaf
> rears, military-wrap spring eyes, greasable teflon inserts, urethane
> bushings, and your choice of lift heights - anything from 0" - 4".
I am seriously considering buying springs from Rocky Mountain
Off-Road in Grand Junction, Colorado later this summer. I have
talked to James (who is one of the owners) before, and he is very
willing to discuss suspension needs and does build custom springs to
fit any Toyota owners needs. I would recommend giving them a call at
either (970) 242-6005 or 1-800-524-6005.
Hope this helps.
Mike Williams
======+++++++++++++======
mwill@ctos.com
===++++++++++++++===
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:33:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Dr. Karl Bellve"
Subject: 3 inch springs, Downey or Northwest?
To: Nick Krest
On Fri, 9 May 1997, Nick Krest wrote:
> However, if my choice was wide-open, I think I would go with the Alcan
> springs from Rocky Mountain Off-Road. Pricey at three hundred frogskins a
> pair, but quality built to your specs. Five-leaf fronts and seven-leaf
> rears, military-wrap spring eyes, greasable teflon inserts, urethane
> bushings, and your choice of lift heights - anything from 0" - 4".
Phone or address? Or better yet, a URL?
Dr. Karl Bellve
Biomedical Imaging Group
University of Massachusetts
WWW : http://molmed.ummed.edu/~kdb/
Email: kdb@molmed.ummed.edu
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:50:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Darrell Creeks
Subject: buggy springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I recently made a pair of extension shackels that automatically would extend
with tire droop. the problem I had was super duper axle wrap. When I would
start from a stop sign the shackles would fully extend then slam closed. I
would think the buggy springs would have the same affect. Thanks to Jay's
web site I learned how to make a ladder bar that will work in the rocks. I
get to test it next friday. I'm going to the Rubicon with a bunch of j**ps.
I also cant wait to try my new marlin case.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 12 May 1997 10:56:13 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Mazda leafs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 10:53 AM
OFFICE MEMO Mazda leafs Date: 5/12/97
JMAX71@aol.com wrote:
>I missed some of the disscussion on the mazda leafs stuff.
>My question is.....is the mazda main leaf longer than a stock toy rear leaf
>(79-85), if so how much.
>Thanks for the info!
The Mazda rear main leaf is about 5 inches longer than the stock
Toy live axle rear main leaf. This is where a lot of the travel and
ride improvements come from.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:43:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: 3 inch springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On Mon, 12 May 1997, phil callahan wrote:
> I've read the recent NWOR/Downey spring posts and it
> appears the Downey is the more desirable of the two.
> But, given the Downey charactieristic of sagging, has
> anyone had any experience with the newer 3 inch
> Skyjacker suspension for a live axle toy? My '83
> does double-duty hauling hay/feed so I must compromise
> flexibility with the need to tote a heavy load over rough
> roads. Thanks
Well my 4" skyjacker springs just got in today! They look pretty much
like I expected: 3 main leafs, with a load leaf too. The main leafs
have teflon pads in between them, and the springs came with shims (3-5
degree something like that) bolted too them. These do NOT have the
military wraps like the Downey ones FWIW.
Anyway, I'll let you all know how I like them once I get them on. We'll
be putting a set (of rear springs) on an 1986 toyota p/u and a 1987
4Runner. BTW, the 4runner uses p/u springs, so expect it to sit a
little lower.
Oh yeah, one other thing I forgot to mention. Skyjacker doesn't really
include much with the springs. If you're expecting a big box of parts
with them--don't! I got a set of poly bushings (four) and the shim
that's mounted to the spring. That's it. No brake line bracket, or
proportioning valve bracket, no U-bolts, bump stops, grease for the poly
bushings...none of that stuff. (okay with me because I knew about that
before hand and ordered the stuff that I'd need).
I did get instructions and a sticker too. Oh yeah, FWIW, it looks as
though the full kit's (for solid axle trucks) don't include any of the
steering fix stuff, but the instructions do mention that you should get
them.
The best price I found was National Tire and Wheel, and they sent
everything (four springs) in one week for 120 bucks (shipping) plus $465
(springs). If you think that's expensive, you should see what it costs
to ship those buggers to AK.
Also, FWIW and everything: Friday the 8th I placed all my orders (4WPW,
Downey, National Tire and Wheel), and everything got here nice and
quick, in good shape, and as I expected it to be. Now we just gotta put
it all on!
Later,
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:19:49 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: add-a-leaf
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
penny wrote:
my truck (an 82 toy 4x4 L.B. w/3in.body
> lift and 35 inch general grabber m/ts) My problem is,during extreme
> compression my passenger side front tire makes contact with the body will
> these add-a-leafs give me the extra couple inches i need? at $43.99 it
> seems like a cheap solution to this problem. what about a shackle lift up
> front?
That's just what I was gonna suggest.
>which is better?
Personally I think the shackle lift is a better idea. The add-a-leaf is
going to stiffen up your spring, you won't get as good articulation
compared to the springs as they are now. Another plus is the ease of
installation. You won't have to mess with the spring pack, just slap on
the shackles.
is changing front shocks mandatory with both of these ideas?
Depends on how much travel you have out of your current shocks. When I
did a shackle lift on the rear of my 88 4Runner I found out (in my
garage) that my travel was now restricted by the shock, so I had to go
buy longer shocks. The stock length shocks didn't have enough extension
for the 2"s of lift the shackles gave me.
Hope this helps...
Scott
- --
*****************************************************
Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
88 4Runner SR5 V6
Santa Clara, CA
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:43:14 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: add-a-leaf
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Penny wrote:
>this ad says get 2"-2 1/2" of lift for sagging front ends caused by snow
>plows or winches. I have neither. my truck (an 82 toy 4x4 L.B. w/3in.body
>lift and 35 inch general grabber m/ts) My problem is,during extreme
>compression my passenger side front tire makes contact with the body will
>these add-a-leafs give me the extra couple inches i need? at $43.99 it
>seems like a cheap solution to this problem. what about a shackle lift up
>front? which is better? is changing front shocks mandatory with both of
>these ideas? any info or opinions??? please e-mail me (im not on real time
>mode) purnrgy@quancon.com thanx in advance ...
What you're really looking for is taller bumpstops, your problem is caused
by the springs compressing so much that the tire is hitting the inside of
the fender well upon compression. My truck does this. I have trimmed
some metal from the inside of the fender which stopped alot of it but
it still rubs during extreme compression.
Neither extended shackles or new shocks will stop the problem if your springs
are soft enough. An add-a-leaf would most likely stop it because it would make
the spring pack so stiff that it wouldn't be able to compress that much, at
the cost of wheel travel. Extended bump stops are what you're looking for.
A note though, I'd look into exactly what the tire is rubbing on. Wheel
travel is what everyone else is fighting for and you're looking at giving it
up because of an occasional fender rubbing.
- jack
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 13 May 1997 15:55:35 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: add-a-leaf
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:47 PM
OFFICE MEMO add-a-leaf Date: 5/13/97
"penny" wrote:
>this ad says get 2"-2 1/2" of lift for sagging front ends caused by snow
>plows or winches. I have neither. my truck (an 82 toy 4x4 L.B. w/3in.body
>lift and 35 inch general grabber m/ts) My problem is,during extreme
>compression my passenger side front tire makes contact with the body will
>these add-a-leafs give me the extra couple inches i need? at $43.99 it
>seems like a cheap solution to this problem. what about a shackle lift up
>front?
One further note about swapping to longer shackles up front. You may
find that tire rubbing on the rear edge of the front fender actually
increases. When you add the shackle, you are doing nothing to limit
the upward travel and are also changing the spring travel arc slightly.
This may cause the tire to travel backward slightly more, thus making
the tire rub more.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:34:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: add-a-leaf
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> One further note about swapping to longer shackles up front. You may
> find that tire rubbing on the rear edge of the front fender actually
> increases. When you add the shackle, you are doing nothing to limit
> the upward travel and are also changing the spring travel arc slightly.
> This may cause the tire to travel backward slightly more, thus making
> the tire rub more.
Since this is pretty much a flat spring, wouldn't the axle tend to move
forward?
Just IMHO, but maybe instead of trying to lift your truck more (with
add-a-leafs or shackles) maybe you should try some fender trimming and
larger bump stops. With the bump stops in the same spot, more lift will
only give you more travel--but what you need to do is keep your tires
out of the fenders--so use longer bump stops and/or fender trimming.
Then, when you can afford to 'do it right' (IE, higher lift leaf
springs) you won't be doing anything twice (like shocks for instance).
The nice thing about the shackles though, is that at least you can
re-use those when/if you lift it. Not true of slightly longer shocks,
and add-a-leafs (usually).
Good luck with whatever you do.
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:25:19 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: 'buggie springs'
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Met another Toy fan with buggie springs. He has a 1982 with stock
springs in the rear.
He used a stock Toyota main leaf cut down (off center so it would take
one spring for each side). he measured the eye to center bolt, then
measured from the eye (top shackle mount) back the lenght of the
previous measurement and drilled a hole in the frame for the centering
bolt (top and bottom of frame). He then used u-bolts to hold the spring
to the frame using the bottom centering hole. The upper bracket (might
be a stock upper spring bracket). used the top hole to keep it centered.
He left the stock upper shackle mount on the vehicle. With the 'buggie
spring' eye basically using it as a stop (gained an inch or so because
of this).
In my opinion so far I do not think it is worth it with using a stock
main leaf. on full droop it would come off the upper shackle mount
about 3-4 inches. So (if I am thinking correctly) it would only drop
the tire around 2 inches, like extended shackles only lift about half
there extended lenght.
He did not have any type of panhard rod for support and his truck was
just as solid (IMHO) as stock for side to side movement.
He will be down in Moab with me Memorial day weekend if anyone is going
to be there and would like to see.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 23 May 1997 09:31:13 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: quarter eliptical springs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:17 AM
OFFICE MEMO quarter eliptical springs Date: 5/23/97
Tony Bartlett wrote:
Subject: quarter eliptical springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
>For those who are interested in quarter eliptical springs (Raymon Fryar)
>let me know any question you might have and I will try and get them
>answered. I know two people with them. One was the first using
>National Springs for there setup and the other is Jeff Beech (had white
>jeep on cover of 4wheel $ sport utility), he used a bunch of leftover
>jeep spring to make his own. I could ask them any question someone
>might have about them.
I saw Jeff Beech's stuff when I was in Moab and saw the mods
he was trying to sell.
I was curious about a few things. First, I wondered what the benefit
is of leaving the quarter elliptic packs non-captive to the axle.........
other than the obvious fact that it looks really cool when the axle
drops forever.
I also noticed that on some trailing arm links he used huge (maybe
1 1/4" rod ends) while other links used much smaller rod ends.
Some of the hardware just did not seem proportional.
>The first mentioned jeep mainly did his for more travel. His rear
>driveshaft might be a foot long and with normal springs was limited to
>about 5 inches of travel (u-joint bind). Using the new setup the axle
>rotates as it moves making the bottom u-joint turn up or down allowing
>more travel before it binds. (I think he has about 10 inches now)
This method seems to be common on J**p rear suspension designs
where the driveshaft is really short. They typically design a
swingarm type rear suspension instead of the normal four-link.
They will install a CV joint at the TC and set the axle rotation
so the pinion-to-driveshaft angle is near zero. The trailing arms
are fairly short and coincide closely with the driveshaft length
so they both travel in an arc.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:01:29 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: quarter eliptical springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Jay Kopycinski" wrote:
>I was curious about a few things. First, I wondered what the benefit
>is of leaving the quarter elliptic packs non-captive to the axle.........
>other than the obvious fact that it looks really cool when the axle
>drops forever.
I'm with Jay, I've put alot of thought into this quarter elliptic thing
and was seriously considering implementing it when someone mentioned to
me of what use all the wheel travel is when there is no "spring pressure"
on the axle to hold the tire on the ground. Because in reality, in a
situation like the spectular wheel travel photo's they show in the 4x4 rags
having the tire droop down incredibly with only the weight of the axle
housing and tire holding it on the ground still would most likely let the
tire spin in a vehicle with an open differential. Though it does look
really cool though...............
- jack
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:23:46 -0700
From: Jack Alford
Subject: RTI
To:
Brandon wrote:
>I am running stock toyota springs with a Trailmaster add a leaf and 2"
>Conn ferr shackles. I removed the overlaod spring and my springs will
>actually bend backwards. I measured nine inches of wheel travel while I
>was on the ramp but when you've got rocks under more than one tire I
>think it uses more of the weight of the truck and gives a little more
>travel. Air pressure could also be a factor?
Yes, generally, the more air pressure you have the less you will score.
Though there is a combination of max pressure in the rear tires and
no pressure in the front tires that will help you score a bit more.
>The shackles sit vertical
>on flat ground, is that bad or good?
Bad. This means the springs can droop even less as compared to having
the shackle back at an angle where the spring can start to droop a bit
and just pull the shackle forward before it starts pulling on the
spring pack. This also makes the on road ride stiffer too.
>I have asked this question before
>but here goes, If I take your idea and put mazda springs on, how do I
>get the downey lower leaf that was specified, and how do I "repack" the
>springs once I pick and choose them. How about if I just use the mazda
>springs stock?
I have done the spring swap you speak of and made my spring packs out
of two pairs of mazda springs combined together. I just can't warn people
enough about this swap, so I'll say it again, if you do this swap and
don't use a traction bar, you'll most likely kink and ruin the springs
in short order. I've got a set of kinked 5" skyjackers at home that
I played with the leaves and had made nice and soft to prove my point.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
Date: 10 Jun 1997 10:55:55 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: RTI
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:13 AM
OFFICE MEMO RTI Date: 6/10/97
Brandon Miller wrote:
>> Were you able to bottom the right rear on the bump stop?
>>
>nope
To increase your ramp score and articulation, you need to modify
the rear suspension so it will bottom when the truck is twisted up.
>> Was the front left bottomed?
>>
>nope, all was clear. What set up do you use on the front?
Same here....the front springs may be too stiff. I'm currently
running some homwbrew Datsun/Downey/Mazda springs up front.
>I am running stock toyota springs with a Trailmaster add a leaf and 2"
>Conn ferr shackles. I removed the overlaod spring and my springs will
>actually bend backwards. I measured nine inches of wheel travel while I
>was on the ramp but when you've got rocks under more than one tire I
>think it uses more of the weight of the truck and gives a little more
>travel.
The short length of the stock springs will be the limit on your
droop (assuming your shocks are plenty long). The add-a-leaf
is most likely your travel limit on compression.
>Air pressure could also be a factor?
This can affect ramp scores.
>The shackles sit vertical on flat ground, is that bad or good?
If they lay back at a bit of an angle, they can serve to reduce the
effective spring rate and make the ride smoother. Vertical shackles
are usually a sign of leaf springs that are too short. When you added
the extra leaf you increased the arch in the stock spring and lost
some of its overall horizontal length. When the shackle lays at an
angle, there is more spring/shackle length available for droop.
>I have asked this question before
>but here goes, If I take your idea and put mazda springs on, how do I
>get the downey lower leaf that was specified, and how do I "repack" the
>springs once I pick and choose them. How about if I just use the mazda
>springs stock?
First.....someone has told me that Skyjacker makes lift springs for
2WD Mazda trucks.....just a thought......don't know rates or heights.
The Mazda packs come with three leaves plus overload leaf. I believe
the extended cab models have four leaves. I used the Downey leaves
as they were arched a bit more to provide a little higher lift. Jack
has done his using all Mazda leaves and then added a 1.5" block.
Just reassemble the packs with a center bolt. I kept the spring
wrap brackets but bent them all straight up to allow the packs
to unfold without resistance.
I use five leaves per pack. Using any less will make the spring
rate too light. This is why buying four Mazda packs may be
necessary to get enough leaves.
I chose the Mazda packs after looking around for a while. I know
someone who is considering swapping to baby Cherokee rear
packs. They are even longer but the swap will require more
work because they are 2.75" wide (I think) so the mounts
and perches have to be modifed accordingly. Toy springs
are 2.25 - 2.375" wide. Also, packs from spring-under
vehicles are arched more than those from spring-over
vehicles.
>> Is the spring/shackle length maxed out under max possible droop?
>>
>I don't think so, I think it is because they are so stiff that the wheel
>just comes off of the ground. I don't think the RTI method is all that
>great though because I have had my shocks nearly maxed out (about 1/4"
>to go) in the rocks but my tire came off with a good 1 1/2"-2" of shock
>showing. I could not find anything that was limiting the travel so I am
>assuming it just the stiffness of the springs.
>> Is the front steering arm going into bind?
>>
>Good question, I have never heard of this and I didn't even look. How
>do you correct this, crossover steering?
Mine will bind and I currently run limit straps to prevent it. Crossover
steering is about the only way you're gonna be able to get rid of it.
The stock draglink setup is just too short for high travel movement.
Hope this helps give you a few ideas. Anybody else have some
experience to add?
I'd also love to hear from anyone else who has done some type
of spring swap or custom steering mods.
Hope I didn't ramble too long............
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:46:36 -0700
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Suspension mods
To:
Charles wrote:
> I would like to know if anyone uses an extended front shock mount
>with their lift and if so what manufacturer (custom?)? How long of a
>shock are you able to run with this mount?
I have custom mounts front and rear and run Rancho 9012's, the longest
standard production shock available (approx. 14" of shock rod).
My mounts are made mainly from the front shock mounts on a 2WD Ford
F-350 which bolt to the frame in that application. One note though,
my shocks stick through my fenders in the engine compartment, a worthy
price to my pay in my opinion but a lot of people won't cut on their trucks.
>Is anyone running a Skyjacker lift and if so how do you like it?
I have 5" skyjackers in the front and with a leaf removed, they are
very supple springs, which I run with 2" longer than stock shackles.
I do have to run my RS9000's on 5 to control body sway and just keep
the truck in control in general, a sway bar might help that some though.
I had them in the rear also but playing with leaves produces a very soft
spring pack which kinked under heavy gas without the use of a traction
bar. I'd probably buy them again ... Skyjacker sells alot more
springs than they list in their ads, if I wanted 4" of lift, I'd
buy a set of 5" springs and play with the leaves some. That would give
you a good set of soft springs at your desired ride height fairly easily.
> I have been playing with some custom brackets to lower the front
>spring hangars and shackles for a 2" lift on my truck. But i'm interested
>in lifting my truck a bit more to clear 35" tires and get as much
>articulation as possible.
This is an excellent idea in my opinion, especially if you're talking about
the front springs. On the front I'd mount the front hangers to a piece of
2x3 box tubing and weld that to the front crossmember where the old hangers
were.
In the rear I'd probably mount the spring hanger to a solid piece of 2"
stock and brace it up both sides of the frame quite well. I'd also run
a piece of 1/4" plate from a few inches in front of the lowered mount
to make a sort of "ramp" so that should you ever have the truck resting
on the frame on rocks or whatever that it would have a tendency to
slide over your new mounts instead of just hanging on them.
Take care to do things equally to the front and rear of the spring to
keep the pinion angle the same.
In my opinion, this is an excellent idea as it allows you to use
a much flatter spring and still have lift enough to clear big
tires, since flatter springs will always flex better than springs with
more arch.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
Date: 10 Jun 1997 09:14:24 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Suspension mods
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:18 AM
OFFICE MEMO Suspension mods Date: 6/10/97
Charles wrote:
>I would like to know if anyone uses an extended front shock mount
>with their lift and if so what manufacturer (custom?)?
I (as several others I know) am using Ford 3/4 ton mounts on
the front. Mine are welded onto the lower portion of the stock
mount, but Jack has his welded directly to the frame.
>How long of a shock are you able to run with this mount?
9012, the longest Rancho makes......about 19" compressed, 33" open.
>I have been playing with some custom brackets to lower the front
>spring hangars and shackles for a 2" lift on my truck. But i'm interested
>in lifting my truck a bit more to clear 35" tires and get as much
>articulation as possible.
I'd like to see some of your ideas on these front mounts!
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:20:40 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Squeak, Squeak, SQUEAK!
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Steve Capuano wrote:
>
> >James,
> >
> >If you find the cure for the squeak, squeak, I'd be very interested in
> >knowing how. My 95.5 Tacoma's rear leafs squeak pretty bad and can be
> >heard easily. It seems to be coming from the front mount area. I've
> >tried spraying wd-40 and it does help a little for a short amount of
> >time.
> >
> Well, I can't cure it yet..tho me thinks that poly bushings may help.
>
> I think Scott Wilson has em...any input Scott or other poly believers?
Well, the squeak is most likely the bushings in the leaves. To stop it
your gonna have to pull them and grease them up. Not with standard
grease though, you need to get the stuff that is for poly bushings (it
doesn't evaporate). I don't know where to buy the stuff though, it
comes with the pack when you buy poly bushings, that's all I've ever
needed.
But, like Steve mentioned above...poly. If your gonna be going all the
way down to the bushings to fix the squeak, why not replace them at the
same time. You should know that poly tends to squeek more than rubber,
but with the right precautions it shouldn't squeek. I won't do the
whole poly spiel right now because I did a page with the whole spiel.
Check it out at
http://petra.austinc.edu/mcontrer/scott/shkllift.htm
Pay special attention to the advice on prepping the bushings so they
won't squeak.
Scott
- --
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:23:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: SKeene8194@aol.com
Subject: Removing Stock Load Leafs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-06-11 18:31:35 EDT, you write:
<< In my endless search for the softest ride I have decided to remove my
stock load leafs on my 92 Std. bed. I was wondering what I should do with
that extra 1/2'' of space that will be left over from removing the last
leaf (The perch "sandwiches" the leaf pack between the bump stop mount and
the spring perch....removal of a leaf or two leaves a space in the
"sandwich"). I guess I could cut the load leafs for and aft to make a
spacer, but I'm running out of sawzall blades quick. Does anybody have
any other suggestions? Thanks a bunch.
>>
Some people do cut the load leaf and use it as a spacer, and some have 1/2"
Spacers mad up. But remember, the load leaf serves as an anti-spring wrap
limiter.
So once its removed you will possibly need to install a track bar or some
other device
to prevend Spring wrap. But yes, the load leaf is a big limiter of spring
compression.
anybody with good articulation has gotten rid of that thing.
Steve Keene
skeene8194@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:07:43 +0200
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Suspension mods
To:
Charles wrote:
>I don't mind the idea of cutting my fenders but i have no idea where to
start!
>would you mind sending me some pics of your install??? you mention that the
>mounts bolt to the frame in the ford, did you have to weld them in the toy?
Different applications, there's really no way not to weld them on.
>Which leaf did you remove? how much lift do you have without this leaf?
>Did you gain much articulation?
I lost about an 1" of lift and yes the fronts flex very well. Skyjacker
leaves are really to thick to flex super-softly like the mazda springs
do with there thin leaves. But they do quite well.
>Yup i'm talking about the front. I'm using a bracket i welded myself at a
>friends house. the bracket is a bolt-on to the front spring hanger with a
>support arm that is perpendicular to the spring. the support arm bolts to
>the front crossmember under the radiator.
Not to discredit your welding or design abilities but this idea scares
me to death. There are incredible forces going on with the front axle
of a 4x4 solid axle truck. No way I'd be riding around with a part
that was just bolted on. My idea of cutting the original spring hangers
off and welding a new set to a piece of 2x3 box tubing and then
welding that piece to the bottom of the front crossmember is the only
idea for lowering the front mounts that I consider safe. This would
also allow you to move the front axle forward an inch or two, especially
since you plan on running 35's .... they'll be all into the fenders
at max compression.
>I haven't played with the rear this way yet just a shackle lift, But...
|From your other posts you seem to believe that your going to get 2" of
lift from a shackle that is 2" longer than stock. That is not quite
the way it works, if you add a shackle that is 2" longer, since you've
only moved one end of the spring you're only going to get roughly half
of whatever you changed.
- jack
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:31:40
From: Charles
Subject: Suspension mods
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
At 09:07 AM 6/12/97 +0200, you wrote:
>>Yup i'm talking about the front. I'm using a bracket i welded myself at a
>>friends house. the bracket is a bolt-on to the front spring hanger with a
>>support arm that is perpendicular to the spring. the support arm bolts to
>>the front crossmember under the radiator.
>Not to discredit your welding or design abilities but this idea scares
>me to death. There are incredible forces going on with the front axle
>of a 4x4 solid axle truck. No way I'd be riding around with a part
>that was just bolted on.
When I completed the drawings I sent them to a friend of mine who is
a mechanical engineer. He put them in a simulation program that tests
stress in 6 directions and torsion forces as well. What he recommended
was adding the perpendicular brace. He took the liberty of doing so in the
simulation and found that it would take more force than the stock mounts
would without breaking!
But on another note, you have ample reason to question my welding. I
busted a weld on my drivers side bracket last night! I've removed the
brackets for now and am looking around for a qualified fabricator to
duplicate the bracket. (With stronger welds!!!)
>>I haven't played with the rear this way yet just a shackle lift, But...
>
>|From your other posts you seem to believe that your going to get 2" of
>lift from a shackle that is 2" longer than stock. That is not quite
>the way it works, if you add a shackle that is 2" longer, since you've
>only moved one end of the spring you're only going to get roughly half
>of whatever you changed.
I believe in my previous posts I stated that I was using a 2" overstock
shackle
and the 2" drop brackets for the spring hangars for a total of 2" of lift
(I dropped both ends of the spring 2") in the front. In the rear I used a 4"
overstock shackle to provide the 2" lift. Sorry if I said something else,
this is
what I meant ;)
Charles Brooks cbrooks1@mail.acilink.net
83 Toy pickup, No sway bar
Custom 2"lift using stock springs
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:20:04 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: smoother ride
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Tim Stucky wrote:
"I was just wondering what options I had to
making the ride in my 84 (strait axle) 4x4
shortbed. As far as I know everything is
stock except for the 31" tires. The ride is
just punishing...what would I need? I'd also
like to add a lift in the neighborhood of 3-4
inches. Would this just make the ride rougher?"
The best thing you could do would be to address this problem (rough ride)
and your desire for a lift at the same time, by buying some soft 3" or 4"
lift springs, and softly valved shocks.
Now there are a lot of lift kits out there, and most of them are
stiffstiffstiff. Some that aren't include Downey (stock rate), Skyjacker
(or so I've heard), Rocky Mountain Off-Road, and National. These last two
will build springs for you in any rate you want. Downeys run $175/pair,
Skyjackers I don't know offhand, RMOR $300, and Nationals $400 and up.
Shocks would be Doetsch-Tech Pre-Runners, Doetsch-Tech MV-12's, and Rancho
9000's. The Pre-Runners are cheaper ($30 each), the Ranchos and MV-12's $50
each. The Ranchos are 5-way adjustable, and suit a lot of people on the
list. I went with a set of MV-12's after destroying a set of 9000s in half
a day in Nevada.
You can go mild to wild on a lift; doing a lift will create some challenges
that will have to be addressed, such as front driveshaft length and angle.
If I were you, I would call these two guys and get their opinion: Kenny
Ishimaru at Downey Off-Road (310) 949-9494, and Kevin Grove at Rocky
Mountain Off-Road (970) 242-6005. Both are really helpful, super nice, and
will give you the answers you're looking for.
Good luck,
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:59:24 -0600
From: loki@crestedbutte.net
Subject: 4 inch lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
penny wrote:
>
> Does any-one have the 4 inch lift from 4 wheel parts wholesalers $199.95 ?
> My truck currently only has a 3 inch body lift and im tired of hearing the
> body scrub on my new tires in extreme situations.Do these kits use blocks
> to raise the rear? Would a drop drag link be needed? will my stock
> driveshafts need any modification? My homepage has some pics of this 82 toy
> at www.geocities.com/baja/6397/ please respond directly to me at
> purnrgy@quancon.com and to the list. Thanks
I've been running the 4wpw 4'' lift for a couple months now. it is
really a procomp kit. Its new springs for the front and blocks for the
rear. I went without the blocks and use addaleaves and longer shackles
on the rear. I went with RS5000 shocks but the ones they sent with the
kit didn't work on the front, they were too long and bottomed out before
the bump stops. they did replace the shocks at no charge other than
shipping. This is a good company to work with in my opinion. I'd be
happy to answer any specific questions. And yes they are a little stiff
but not to bad.
Rob Boyle 85 4runner
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:02:13 -0600
From: loki@crestedbutte.net
Subject: 4 inch lift
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
penny wrote:
>
> Does any-one have the 4 inch lift from 4 wheel parts wholesalers $199.95 ?
No on the drag link and drive shfts in my case, chaep easy lift!
Rob Boyle 85 4runner
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 09:57:39 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Alcan Springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
WOW, that about tells all about these springs. I just installed them
and the few tests I did with them are amazing. At the time I run Rancho
5017 shocks (do not know their length). Compression will compress it
completly. Droop, if I loosen up the upper mount nut to just a few
threads, will add about an inch to the full extended length. If I
remove the shock on compression, the droop shock will drop out until the
nut stops it. I will have to wait until I install longer shocks to know
how much more I can get out of them. I will take measurements at the
shock and bumpstop. I will probably send some picts to Jay (if its OK).
I ordered some Ford front upper shock mounts for a 1991 Ford F-250 today
to adapt the longer shocks to. I am sure I will be getting Rancho 9012
for all corners. Before the buy 3 get 1 free ends (July 15).
On the springs I ordered them with the center pin moved forward 1 1/2
inches. That really helps with fender clearance. I will only have to
do minor mods (hammer) to have complete clearance. I will be needing to
put some shims under the springs though to tilt my pinion up a little.
One thing I was really suprised with is my front tires, 33X15.50X15
mounted on 15X10 wheels, will actually compress inside my fender (at the
top) I was already planning on bump stops to stop compression as my
tire hits the edge of the fender (where the trim is). Now I will have a
few more inches of compression because of the clearance.
As of now I did not see any steering binding problems. I do need to
shorten my drag link to center my steering. After that and the shocks I
will know for sure if I will run into problems with binding.
I might tilt the shock out a little (1/2 inch) if it will not hit tire
to help clear the drag link and steering arm on droop. With these
shocks I have about 1/4 inch before they hit.
I will let everyone know the travel I get after the new shocks are in.
But I already think they where well worth the money.
Oh, I also need to do something with my torque rod. Possibly mount it
with hitch pins to it can be removed (Jay if you read this far what have
you done with yours??).
Thanks for reading.
Tony.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 10:26:48 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Front spring articulation problems
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Well, to check how much compression and droop I will have with the Alcan
4 inch springs( with front axle moved forward 1 1/2 inches and 2 inch
longer shackles) I removed my shocks (limiting compression and droop).
Lifting the rear tires one at a time this is a quick run down of what I
found.
NOTE-all checks at this time are with tires pointing straight. swaybar
and torque rod and shocks disconnected.
Lifting drivers rear-(passenger front compress and drivers front droop)
I was not able to lift tire until other rear came off ground but was
real close (lift had problems).
on passenger front I had 1 1/2 inches until my bump stop would hit.
did not look like there was any problems with any clearances (now that
would be different with the tires turned)
on drivers front I did not measure (do not know why) but did not see
any problems except steering components (drag link and steering arm
hitting shock, no binding of drag link end and steering arm noted)
Lifting passenger rear-passenger front droop, drivers front compression
Passenger front-
had 11 inches between bump stop and frame. This means there is 9 1/2
inch of travel at bump stop (Jay might know how this might be
calculated to shock travel, hey Jay?)
did not notice any other clearance problems.
Drivers front (Attn: Jay)
Should have kept watch as I was lifting the tire. Once it was lifted I
went to check over everything. Found some bad news on compression on
drivers front (I have drop drag link and steering arm with ball mounted
on top). The drag link end was bound up into the pad where the bump
stop should hit, broke my zerk fitting. I hope I did not stress the arm
or draglink out (should know next time I try and cross the Golden Crack
down in Moab). Also the bottom side of the drag link end and the edge
of the steering arm was binding (could cause stress on the ball on the
steering arm).
Other quick notes: both rear tires came around 33 inches off the ground
before lifting another tire (other rear). It looks like I have about 3
inches of droop and compression in the rear with an empty bed (stiff
springs)
Jay, if you make it this far. I have a question about your steering
setup. I think you run a drop drag link with the stock steering arm. I
am guessing that you might have the binding problem with the drag link
end and steering arm on droop (near threaded end)? and possibly binding
on compression at the drag link (near cotter pin)? I will be calling
Kevin at RMOR to discuss this problem. One thing with stock drag link
if I remember correctly is the ends are not as big as aftermarket ones
that are adjustable. I just do not know what Kevin did (if anything) to
center his pitman arm between the stops with a stock drag link and his
lift (4 inch alcans and 2 inch longer shackles)
Will keep everyone informed on progress.
Tony.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 2 Jul 1997 09:16:43 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Front spring articulation p
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:50 AM
OFFICE MEMO Front spring articulation problems Date: 7/2/97
Tony Bartlett wrote:
snip
>Passenger front-
>had 11 inches between bump stop and frame. This means there is 9 1/2
>inch of travel at bump stop (Jay might know how this might be
>calculated to shock travel, hey Jay?)
Since the spring and front shock both travel close to vertical, you
can assume the shock travel and bump stop travel are very near
equal.
>Drivers front (Attn: Jay)
>
>Should have kept watch as I was lifting the tire. Once it was lifted I
>went to check over everything. Found some bad news on compression on
>drivers front (I have drop drag link and steering arm with ball mounted
>on top). The drag link end was bound up into the pad where the bump
>stop should hit, broke my zerk fitting. I hope I did not stress the arm
>or draglink out (should know next time I try and cross the Golden Crack
>down in Moab). Also the bottom side of the drag link end and the edge
>of the steering arm was binding (could cause stress on the ball on the
>steering arm).
Ok, this would explain why you see no binding upon droop. I run a 4"
drop draglink but stock steering arm and mine goes into bind under
droop (thus the reason I am still running a limit strap). I was going
to go with a flipped ball steering arm, but found that my front spring
travel can exceed the available movement of the short draglink
regardless of where the ball is located.....I would either bind going
down (stock arm) or bind going up (flipped ball arm).
>Other quick notes: both rear tires came around 33 inches off the ground
>before lifting another tire (other rear). It looks like I have about 3
>inches of droop and compression in the rear with an empty bed (stiff
>springs)
Sounds good....that translates to a ramp score of about 810 for
an Xtra Cab truck.
>Jay, if you make it this far. I have a question about your steering
>setup. I think you run a drop drag link with the stock steering arm. I
>am guessing that you might have the binding problem with the drag link
>end and steering arm on droop (near threaded end)?
Yes, see above.
>and possibly binding on compression at the drag link (near cotter pin)?
No bind upon compression.
>I will be calling
>Kevin at RMOR to discuss this problem. One thing with stock drag link
>if I remember correctly is the ends are not as big as aftermarket ones
>that are adjustable. I just do not know what Kevin did (if anything) to
>center his pitman arm between the stops with a stock drag link and his
>lift (4 inch alcans and 2 inch longer shackles)
He may not have it centered. Although......if he added the 4 inch lift
and moved the center pin forward he could probably have recentered
his Pitman arm.
Remember too that when moving the axle forward you loose more
draglink travel......keeps the tires out of the fenders, but hurts our
steering and travel capabilities. Compromises.....compromises.......
but there are solutions to every problem......well maybe.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
----------------
------------------------------
Date: 03 Jul 1997 07:57:41 -0400
From: Dan Friedlander
Subject: Spring Rate
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org (Return requested)
Charles posted:
Charles. OME is top notch. Probably the best in the business. Yes, the leaves
have slip pads between them and are greaseable. I have no idea what the front
springs spring rate is. You can call ARB USA for that info. Their number is 888/
427-2872 and you should speak with Buddy King or Greg.
They do not recommend extended shackles and the overall lift is only about 2.5
inches. Lift is the last thing this suspension is designed for (unfortunately
for those of us wishing for 33"x 12.50 clearance).
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 11:08:20 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: More front wheel travel talk
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
O.K. today I installed my stock steering arm (ball on bottom), with my 4
inch drop drag link, and went to check what type of travel I would get
before any binding occured.
I installed it while on a lift so all tires where off the ground. With
the Alcan springs I did not have a clearance problem with the u-bolts
(as of yet, I should install a shim, and I do not have a bump stop on
yet). As I went to turn the wheel (right from center I think) I did not
quite make full turn when the bottom front edge of the steering arm
started binding on my draglink (and that is without full droop on the
left front). I still do not know how the people at RMOR do it with
there travel without binding. Possibly grinding a slight amount off the
front bottom edge of the steering arm (I do not know what this would do
to its strength, and the grinding would be slight I think). I have a
spare welded arm that I might try this with.
Either way, as I see it right now. With the steering arm with the ball
on top I will loose about 4-6 inches of compression. With the ball on
the bottom (stock) I would loose about 4-6 inches of droop. I also
found that I have a problem now (since I moved my axle forward 1 1/2
inches on the spring) of my tire hitting my pitman arm right about the
time my drag link (steering arm w/ ball on top) hits the frame.
I will probably keep the ball on top steering arm at this time since I
will be limited to compression because of my tire hitting the pitman
arm. But once I change tires/wheels I should be able to avoid this
problem, then maybe back to ball on bottom steering arm.
Boy did Jay and Jack have this much fun when they where working with the
front suspension??
Also, how bad is it using the shock to stop compression and droop. I
plan on running the Rubicon with the shocks I have now (Ranch 5017's)
and install my 9012's when I have time to install proper bump stops and
limit straps.
Tony.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 10:00:02 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Springs for 83 Toy
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Allan, first when did you start rock crawling and do you have your
swaybar hooked up??
The reason I ask is that I had some springs for 9 years with the swaybar
connected. I finally bought some new springs and with the swaybar
disconnected they will go arc backwards. This leads to springs that
will not last as long.
If you are using your swaybar springs should last much longer than
without using the swaybar. It also depends on how much crawling you
do. There are a lot of variables out there on how long springs will
last.
Good luck picking your springs. Let the list know what you bought and
how you like them.
Also, I think any off the shelf aftermarket spring will be stiffer than
stock. If you want a stock ride or softer you would have to look into
custom springs from National or any other spring manufacturer.
I just bought Alcan 4" front springs. I am not done with the other mods
to go along with these springs (bump stops, limit straps, longer shocks,
longer splines for the driveshaft...) but I am very satisfied with
them. I do not know if they are just as stiff as my previous springs or
if both springs where stiff because of my shocks. I will know when I
install the Rancho 9000's.
Tony.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 16:22:38 -0700
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: springs for 83 Toy pu
To: "Toy4x4@tlca.org"
Allan Davis wrote:
>
> I am in desperate need of new leaf springs and shocks for my Toyota
> pickup. It seems that every maker has some fans and some displeased
> customers. Is there any spring setups that everyone likes?
>
> I have pretty well written off NWOR due to their bad rep here. The
> Downey springs sound good, but if they sag in a couple years, that
> does me no good. I got 13 years out of the originals. I talked to
> someone with the Skyjacker Softrides and he hates them, says they are
> very stiff and articulate poorly. I suppose my main concern is that
> I don't get springs that will sag quickly. I would rather have a
> stiffer ride than have to replace them every few years. However,
> I need all my travel.
>
> Anyway, this truck is a rock-crawler and motorcycle transporter. Any
> suggestions would be most welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Allan
My Trail Master lift just got me through the Rubicon, again and Trail
Master has an awesome replacement waranty program. I told them mine
sagged uneven and I got new ones, friends have gotten new shocks too.
- --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brandon Miller email: sac78483@saclink.csus.edu
Sacramento, CA millerb@gaia.ecs.csus.edu
url: http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb/4x.html
1983 Toyota LB locked F&R, 5.29:1 gears, roll cage, etc. etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:22:19 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: springs for 83 Toy pu
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Allan Davis wrote:
"I am in desperate need of new leaf springs
and shocks for my Toyota pickup. It seems
that every maker has some fans and some
displeased customers. Is there any spring
setups that everyone likes?...The Downey
springs sound good, but if they sag in a
couple years, that does me no good. I got
13 years out of the originals...this truck
is a rock-crawler and motorcycle transporter."
Downey springs are $170/pair. They're made by NHK, same people that made
your OEM springs. Same spring rate; either 2" or 3" lift.
If it's a rock-crawler, I'd go with RMOR/Alcan. Expensive at $300/pair, but
you get your choice of lift heights (0-4"), and spring rates. I'm putting a
set on my truck this next week.
Talk to Kenny Ishimaru at Downey (562) 949-9494, and Kevin Grove at RMOR
(800) 524-6005, and see what they think.
As far as shocks go, both Kenny and Kevin (and myself) will recommend you
go with Doetsch-Tech MV-12's. Remember that shocks and springs should be
put together as a system, not as a collection of random and/or disparate
components.
Good luck,
- Nick
------------------------------
- -----Original Message-----
From: Toy4x4-request@tlca.org On Behalf Of Nick Krest
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 11:06 AM
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Subject: Re: Toy P'up Suspension
Eric Sulit wrote:
"I live in the Philippines which means I
have a slightly different Toy P'up
Sounds like a great truck, what I wouldn't give to have those available
here!!!
Eric! NOW'S YOUR CHANCE! The extra-special bonus in having a non-US spec
truck is that you get to use Old Man Emu (OME) suspension. Made in
Australia, legendary for its smooth ride and Outback-style toughness. OME
does not build a suspension for US-spec trucks (much to our continued
chagrin),
Nick,
OME is now available for US Toyota's. That's right, it absolutely is!!!!
No, don't argue, I am not pulling your leg. Dan Friedlander is doing an
install on his 85 as you read this. I priced a complete rear setup for my 88
the other day, and they had it in-stock and available. You must be a TLCA
member to get a discount from ARB USA however. Join TLCA, buy OME and hit the
trails in smoothly articulated comfort. For those of us with IFS, we still
have a front suspension issue. The OME will lift the rear 2.5" over new stock
springs, so expect 3-3.5 over ten-year old sagging 4Runner springs. If you
don't do something about the front you will have a "rake worthy of a Ford
Pinto", but I have yet to see an IFS "kit" that really makes me happy (I am
waiting on info from WCOR, maybe this is it). The anti-inversion shackles
and matched shocks and grease-able pins are all available too....
Later,
Rick 88 4Runner SR5 V6
5spd (mine) 31's, Bushwackers, lots more soon
TLCA #5042 94 4Runner SR5 V6 auto
(hers) 31" BFG's, 4:88's, Optima, K&N...
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 14 Jul 1997 10:19:17 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Old Man Emu Lift Installation
To: "Jack Alford" , "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 10:16 AM
OFFICE MEMO Old Man Emu Lift Installation Date: 7/14/97
I had the chance to help a friend install an OME lift kit on an M-T85 4Runner
this weekend. This is the new U.S. version 2.5M-S kit. This is some sweet
hardware, made for the Australian outback.
The kit included four spring packs, all new urethane bushings for springs
and shackles, four shocks, and new spring bolts and shackles.
The spring packs are made very well. The leaves are all tapered and
supposedly pre-stressed to prevent sag. The pack clamps have black
plastic or Teflon sliders on the sides and the clamps are made tall so
the packs can unfold upon droop. The springs have military wrap leaves.
The driverM-Us side front is arched more than the passenger side (like
stock). I think the front springs have four leaves. The rears have
four regular leaves, plus a slightly heavier lower leaf, plus an
overload bar on the bottom.
Yellow urethane bushings are used throughout. They are fairly soft
and all have grooves in them for grease.
The shocks are gas pressurized and do not use boots. They have a
metal upper body.
All new spring bolts and shackles are included, and each bolt piece
is greaseable via a small zerk on one end. The hardware is all zinc
or yellow zinc plated, except for the bolt shafts themselves.
There were a few things that need to be corrected on the kit.
The lock washers provided were not of the greatest quality,
though all the other hardware was well made. The shocks were
actually a bit on the short side.....actually limiting droop travel.
M-T85 models do not use the forward spring bolt with the flanged
head on the rear spring pack. OME provided a flanged head bolt
like those used on the earlier trucks. We had to do a small mod
to fit it up. IM-Um sure these problems will be corrected or
otherwise dealt with.
The springs are really soft and progressive. I drove it around
the parking lot at the shop and they seem quite soft. You can tell
that the spring rate will rise as more load is applied, especially
in the rear. The rear of the truck sits slightly higher than the
front.
This kit will be priced a bit on the high side, but for those looking
for a super 2.5M-S kit, this may be it. I saw what will probably be
the retail price on the kit, but am hesitant to give it here ......
IM-Um not sure if my friend at the shop would like me to release it
at this time.
Cool thing......the greaseable pins and shackles can be purchased
separately, though the shackles are about stock length.
I can provide more info as he gets it out and wheels it some. He
was headed out Saturday night to try it out. I didn't get to go
along since I had to go home and work on my brake swap since
I had spent most of the day at the shop ;-)
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '85 4Runner (her project)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '91 4Runner (for sale)
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:29:28 -0700
From: Wiley Davis
Subject: quarter elliptic nonsense
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
just a note...quarter eliptic setups are a waste of time and fabrication.
The only reason that they exist is because SCORE rules dictate that
certain classes retain the stock concept suspension. This means that if
the truck came factory w/ leafs then leafs must be used. To circumvent
this rule the smart racers use a 1/4 eliptic setup to gain travel and
still be "stock concept". darren Skilton, who raced a jeep grand
cherokee, uses coil-over shocks on the rear in his class8 because it came
w/ coils from the factory. Coil-overs are a little more expensive, but
require alot less bracketry to mount, they are lighter, and they have
less friction due to fewer moving parts...which correlates to better,
smoother travel.
Future plans for the tacomo include 4" longer upper and lower arms,
fiberglass fenders and 33" 9.5 BFG's, w/ a single Bilstein coil-over. A
single 2.5 or 3" shock is plenty for a small, low-speed truck (compared
to trophy's anyway). The reason most of those race-trucks double up on
shocks in the rear and not in the front, is because the front end can
bounce up over things, but the rear needs to soak to keep the power on
the ground.
- -Wiley Davis-
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:48:47 -0400
From: john skaggs
Subject: Suspension Install Update
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Well it starts out good but it gets worse as time goes on.
The good part.. 6/28/97 Talked the BOSS(wife) into getting new suspension
for the 4Runner, called RMOR and ordered it, they send it.
The bad part.. 7/1-7/14 Tracked on the net thru UPS web page, saw it
leave Grand Junction and go to Denver then saw half of it leave Denver
and go back to Grand Junction, while the other half sits in Denver 8
days (UGH!). Called RMOR and UPS and push UPS into action.
The good part.. 7/15 The suspension gets here after going around in
circles.
7/18 Start installing the lift. I started with the rear. Had a few
problems because of the rusty bolts becoming one with the rubber
bushings, but it went pretty good once I got out the sawzall to cut
the bolts. The new rear springs went in without to many problems,
actually the only problems I had was because I had no help. The RS
9000's bushings gave me a little problem but not to much.
The bad part.. 7/19 I get ready to start on the front and I look at
the new springs, one of them has 4" written on it and the other has
5" written on it. There supposed to both be 5". I call RMOR and tell
them this, they said Oh $hit sorry we'll find out what happened.
They found out that they got one of my springs mixed up with someone
elses. My other spring got sent to Minnesota. They call this guy and
he was supposed to have sent it back to RMOR on 7/19. Well it's 7/31
now and RMOR still doesn't have my other spring and my 4Runner is still
sitting in the garage with it's head held down low.
If you've read this far, I would like to ask you a question. I like
the guys at RMOR and have no hard feelings toward them but I'm getting
tired of driving my wifes little Mazda to work.
Would I be asking to much of RMOR if I asked them to just make me another
spring and send it to me? I am getting really tired of waiting for this
other guy. I have already sent back the wrong spring on 7/21 (RMOR paid
for shipping back)
Thanks for any opinions,
John Skaggs
TLCA# 5560
85 4Runner (gettin taller soon) still only halfway there
Akron, Ohio
John.Skaggs@ab.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 00:25:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Tech tips mazda $
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-08-18 03:51:25 EDT, you write:
<< The Toyota spring mount that attaches to the frame is about $60 in
Canada and has to be ordered from Japan which takes about 3 weeks!
I think I'm going to just fabricate my own frame mount.
You have to build a longer shackle which is cheap and misc parts.
I suggest you go to Jay Kopycinski's web page. It's very well detailed
there.
>>
By the way, if you are thinking of the Mazda swap, when you are welding the
new mounts on the frame, think about a custom 1" or so lift between the
frame and mount. If done CORECTLY, this would give the lift you need, and
allow a still flatter spring arch. Anyway, just a thought, I plan to do this
if I ever do the Mazda swap.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 26 Aug 1997 15:37:07 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: This can be saved (I think)
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:33 PM
OFFICE MEMO This can be saved (I think) Date: 8/26/97
Gregory M Charland wrote:
snip
>I'd appreciate any input on a) doing this to a 4Runner b) rust
>restoring/preventative chemical stories c) suspension lift input (I'm
>considering the NWOR 3-1/2" setup).
The NWOR springs are VERY stiff and don't count on them
backing their warantee with any decent service....been there.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:20:47 -0400
From: Rob Ditusa
Subject: Suspension lifts for solid axles-comments?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I installed the 3" kit from Downey along with some RS9000's on my
'80 longbed last year. The front springs went in smooth, but the rear
center pin supplied with the new rear springs was not long enough, so I
couldn't install the "load-carrying leaf". Also, my order was delayed 2
weeks because they didn't have enough bushings the same color!!
I drove the truck fully loaded from Palmdale, California to Raleigh, NC
and have only been offroad a dozen times or so, but I do like the way
the truck feels. I'm told (by Downey) that other companies' springs are
stiffer than theirs, and that Downey's are more softer, like the stock
ones (which weren't too soft!!!), and are prone to wearing out sooner,
but so far, so good. I just dial the 9000's down to 1, and off road I go.
(I still haven't put the load-carrying leafs in.)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:38:32 -0400
From: john skaggs
Subject: This can be saved (I think)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Gregory M Charland wrote:
> snip
> >I'd appreciate any input on a) doing this to a 4Runner b) rust
> >restoring/preventative chemical stories c) suspension lift input (I'm
> >considering the NWOR 3-1/2" setup).
I've heard bad things about NWOR. But I can recommend RMOR. I only have
half of my lift installed, (rear) but I just couldn't wait any longer.
I took it out wheeling this weekend and it was very impressive.
Articulated very well, I can see where Jay is having a problem with the
top of the tire hitting the frame :-) I like it, and the people behind
me said that it looked pretty good all crossed up, can't wait to see
what it will do with the front installed to.
RMOR's springs are a little expensive $150.00 ea. but I hear people
regretting putting on a stiff lift and wanting to go back to stock.
That's alot of money wasted on a product that they thought would
improve their truck.
That is why I like this list so much. We can all learn from other people's
experiences.
Call Kevin or James at (800)524-6005 TLCA members get 10% off. That
brings the springs down to $135.00
John Skaggs
TLCA# 5560
85 4Runner
Akron, Ohio
John.Skaggs@ab.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 21:35:36 -0700
From: Elmar Cannon
Subject: Cepek screw-ups
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I am writing this to let you all know something that I had to learn
the hard way but you probably know already, Don't buy stuff from
Dick...Cepek. I just found out that the Superlift springs that I bought
from them last year are the wrong ones for my truck. yes it took me a
year to figure it out. I had a heck of a time getting them to fit right,
which they never did. They wouldn't fit between my shakles without
cutting at the bushing(clue #1), the parking brake would not work after
their installation, it would hit the outside of the spring(clue#2) and
my stock u-bolts were to narrow to fit over the new leafs(final Clue).
I finally decided to see about fixing the parking brake i thought it was
just because of the taller leaf pack. I went to my local spring Guru who
told me after one swith stroke of a tape measure that my leafs were too
wide. All of the sudden the pieces fell together(duhh), it made sense.
now what do I do? I contacted Dick to see what he will do and i have yet
to hear from him. i think it's time i go visit one of his stores and
raise my voice. In case you are wondering why i went to him in the first
place, all i can say is that I was new to this 4x4 thing, I had not
found Downey and others, and I was not a memeber of this list then.
Jay Kopycinski,
I wonder if i can get some more info about the Mazda springs you used
for your rear leafs. Out of what year truck didthey come? 2x or 4x? did
you have to spend a lot for them? Wana do mine(just kidding) have you
been pretty happy with your set-up? Since i now find myself in the
position of getting new springs,again, any words of wisdom would be
apreciated. That goes for all of you. Thanks in advance
Elmar Cannon
Canserve@Flash.net
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 2 Sep 1997 09:31:37 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Mazda Springs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:31 AM
OFFICE MEMO Mazda Springs Date: 9/2/97
Elmar Cannon wrote:
>Jay Kopycinski,
>I wonder if i can get some more info about the Mazda springs you used
>for your rear leafs. Out of what year truck did they come? 2x or 4x?
Mine came from '84-'85 2WD standard cab trucks. These have three
leaves plus an overload bar. The Space Cab model springs have four
plus an overload.
>you have to spend a lot for them?
I paid $10 per pack for mine.......but I think I got a great deal on
them. Others have been paying $20-30 per pack, from what I've
heard. SkyJacker or Superlift (can't remember which) also makes
lift springs for 2WD Mazdas, but I have no experience with 'em.
>Wana do mine(just kidding) have you been pretty happy with your set-up?
Mine have been on now for over a year and I have been very pleased
with their performance. There may be other alternatives out there,
limited only by your imagination and wallet.......
>Since i now find myself in the
>position of getting new springs,again, any words of wisdom would be
>apreciated. That goes for all of you. Thanks in advance
A lot depends on your intended use and lift height. There are some
brands of springs that work well at one lift height but not at others.
Myself and a friend are currently (over the next several weeks)
building up a suspension on his '80 Toy truck. We are using
Mazda packs in the rear. This will give us some idea how
some of these mods work on the early style body/frame.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 21:29:11 -0700
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: rear springs and reverse u bolt mount
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Definately get RMOR (alcan) springs, no question about it. I have seen
these in action on two trucks and they are amazing. They are not
tightly bound and they have teflon between the leaves so there ride and
flex is awesome, just get them a bit tall because they will sag. I have
seen a lot of other springs and they just don't even compare, the only
downside is that they are $300 a pair but you can have them any way you
want- lift, length, etc. Bottom line, go alcan
- --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brandon Miller email: sac78483@saclink.csus.edu
Sacramento, CA millerb@gaia.ecs.csus.edu
url: http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb/4x.html
1983 Toyota LB locked F&R, 5.29:1 gears, roll cage, etc. etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:03:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brennan Metcalf
Subject: buggy spring ideas
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Well the cat is out of the bag now. I have been 'toying' around
with the idea of buggy springs for a bit know. It will work, but I highly
recomend that you just use a longer rear spring and a simple 2-link track
bar. You will find all the available information at www.off-road.com.
If you really want buggy springs to be different it can be done. I
have been working up plans for a system. The list of ideas below should
help.
- I was considering using an extended spring to begin with but you
could use the stock springs also.
- cutting down a set of stock toyota springs will work, but I
would recomend using a small spring pack instead of one leaf. It would
allow for more strenth and take A LOT of stress off of the main leaf of
the buggy spring.
- You also need to provide a VERY strong mounting point for the
buggy spring on the frame side. I am planning on plating the frame with
1/4" mild steel. Be very carefull when plating a frame. You MUST not have
the welds line up with each other. The welding load need to be spread out
on the frame. Tapering each plate into an oval shape well beyond the point
of stress is a proven method.
- A small poly bumpstop also need to be present for the buggy
spring to contact. This should allow for a 'quiet' setup.
- The bolts the hold the spring to the frame shold not be a u-bolt
style. The best method I have came up with is to have a flat plate cover
drilled with two holes about 4" apart. the buggy spring need to have the 2
holes drilled also. Then 2 sleeved holes need to be drilled in the plated
section of the frame. The sleeves should prevent the frame from caving in
and still allow for the bolts to be torqued down to support the buggy
springs.
- IMPORTANT - the buggy spring have to be on the back of the
spring system.
- The shackle needs to be long enough only to allow for the main
leaf pack to compress to flat. This is the distance between spring eye to
spring eye along the top leaf.
- Make the shackle beefy with a crossbace. The shackle does NOT
need to flex. The buggy leaf will allow for more 'twist'.
- you also need to prevent the axle from moving from side to side
and also prevent axle wrap. I have came up with a couple new ideas for
this but all are very complex. I am not a fan of the Panhard link system.
Its 'track' moves the axle from side to side always no matter what. It the
rod is set up at the right angle ( flat ) this is not as bad. I have been
working up a set of plans for a wishbone that faces to the rear and a more
complex wishbone and single track bar setup. I am not even going to try
and explain them with words. If anyone really really wants to know I'll
send then a set of drawings for a dollar or two. My address is
Metcalf Motorsports
P.O.Box 3253
Moscow, Id.
83843-1908
- Its just a budding company but if anyone wants a part designed
just let me know....enought about that..
That is about all I can write for know. If anyone finds me a 1986
to 1995 Toyota pick-up let me know and I will build the wildest suspension
seen on a Toy.
-Extended front springs with buggy leaf (only 5" lift)
-two seperate front track bar systems ( for front to back & side
to side axle movement )
-Crossover steering
- L-O-N-G travel front shocks, limiting straps, adjusted bumpstops
- axle moved forward 3"
-rear extended springs with buggy leaf ( only 4" lift )
-Air bag secondary suspension that will not affect articulation
(promise)
-L-O-N-G travel shocks ( may or may not poke through bed )
-wierd double track bar system ( all mounted above axle tubes )
Oh one more thing on the buuggy springs, carrying a load of any
great ammount is not a really good idea unless you have a really really
stout tracking system on the axle. I think camping stuff and wheeling
stuff would be alright but towing or daily load hauling is not a good
thing in my mind.
If anyone has any urgent questions e-mail me at
metc9504@uidaho.edu
Thanks, hope everyone else has some feedback also. This idea is a
complicated one and needs to be thought about HEAVILY.
------------------------------
Date: 8 Sep 1997 16:58:20 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Buggy Springs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:58 PM
OFFICE MEMO Buggy Springs Date: 9/8/97
Mathieu.Noualy@shell.ca wrote:
>Since I am new to this list, I am not sure if these questions have been
>asked before, but here goes...
We've talked a bit about it in the past.......
>I'm thinking of doing the buggy springs setup in the rear of my 85
>4Runner. Anyone have any thoughts on the length of spring to use?
>I'm also thinking of allowing about 8 inches of upper buggy spring
>length to flex.
I think that sounds reasonable.
>Anybody have any idea of how much extra droop I can expect?
Hmmmm....I think you could get maybe 2-3 inches, providing your
shocks and brake lines are long enough and you don't have any
tire interference problems.
>My plan is to cut my old stock Toyota springs to use as buggy springs
>and make a panhard bar to locate the axle sideways.
Good idea.
>I currently run two central kicker shocks on my trussed axle to handle
>axle hop but will be fabricating a traction bar in the near future since
>I don't believe the shocks do much of anything except look nice. I have
>a feeling this buggy spring setup will probably increase wheel hop
>tendencies. Am I right?
Yeah, I'd guess the buggy springs might allow the pinion to roll
upward a bit more. A good track bar will do much better than
the kicker shocks for controlling wrap and roll.
Please let us know how the mods go.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:27:18 -0700
From: wgirindra@bbs.fronet.com (Wilkin Girindra)
Subject: buggy springs.
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
About buggy springs. I was seriously going to do them awhile
back but after quite a bit of thinking I have decided to do
the Mazda rear spring conversion instead.
A friend of mine who I go wheelin with quite a bit has had them
on the back of his 82 Toy for about 10 months now.
I can honestly report that they work very well. Tons of articulation.
He used a Toyota main leaf and cut it just behind the centering pin hole.
This gives you an idea of length. You will have to make a traction bar
like Jay K. has on his web page. My buddy didn't have one and kinked
a set of week old Downey springs.:^( He now has the 2 link traction bar!
Reasons why I didn't go this route:
1. I was worried about hassles with the police and vehicle safety inspection.
2. On steep dropoffs they seem to have a tendency to unweight the vehicle
in a rather unnerving way. But this is basically only on really steep
dropoffs where the nose of the truck basically goes right into the ground.
There was a picture of a Scout floating around that used a lever arm
instead of a leaf and he could lock out the arm so this wouldn't happen.
If you need any further details feel free to email me direct
Wil
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:55:47 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Spring fiction Pads?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Dan Merrick wrote:
>
> Has anyone tried the "anti friction pads" for leaf springs offered by
> Northwest off road? Do they fit stock toy springs? The stock springs have
> some kind of pad that is between the springs, but mine are worn out. Any
> ideas? I read an article in one of the 4WD magazines about using teflon
> sheets, etc. between the springs. I am just wondering if anyone out there
> has direct experience with this.
If money is the factor...just grease them! Recently I had to increase
my spring rate to handle the increased weight of my 4Runner. I ended up
going with the Rancho "Soft" Add-a-leaf. I followed the instructions
that came with the Add-a-leaf, and greased the springs at the ends.
What a DIFFERENCE!! Even with the springs now stiffer than they were,
the ride was actually much softer! I wish I knew to grease them a LONG
time ago.
Scott
- --
_____
/_/_|_\__ Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
| _ _ : 88 4Runner SR5 V6
*/_\---/_\' Santa Clara, CA
(_) (_) http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:15:23 -0700
From: Ken Emanuel
Subject: Spring fiction Pads?
To: "'toy4x4@tlca.org'"
>If money is the factor...just grease them! Recently I had to increase
>my spring rate to handle the increased weight of my 4Runner. I ended up
>going with the Rancho "Soft" Add-a-leaf. I followed the instructions
>that came with the Add-a-leaf, and greased the springs at the ends.
>What a DIFFERENCE!! Even with the springs now stiffer than they were,
>the ride was actually much softer! I wish I knew to grease them a LONG
>time ago.
No kidding!! After the last Pismo trip, my rear springs began to squeak.
I disconnected the shocks, jacked the truck up by the towing receiver,
and pulled the springs apart enough to spread grease in there. Result?
Non-squeaking springs and a MUCH improved ride! (And no, not because the
shocks were disconnected!)
Speaking of disconnecting shocks, I have a friend with a very large car and
I thought some of you might enjoy the name of the car; here it is:
Oldsmobile Delta Ninety Eight Regency Brougham Cutlass Deville Royale
Landau Signature Series Plus Limited Edition. Now that's a car!!!
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
87 Xtra Cab SR5 rear ARB Air locker
TJM front bumper 32" BFG A/T
4.0 L DOHC 32V Lexus V8
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:07:23 -0600
From: Rob Boyle
Subject: Spring fiction Pads?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Barney McNamara wrote:
>
> Scott wrote:
> >If money is the factor...just grease them!
>
> How do you grease your springs? Do you have to remove them to separate
> the leaves and jam grease in between? Mine squeak like .....
> ______________________________________________________________
> Barney McNamara JENNY - 83 Toyota Short Bed
> ( barney@flowpoint.com ) stock 22R motor ; 3" body lift
> Santa Cruz, Ca. 8" alloy rims; 31" BFG A/Ts
> homepage: http://www.scruz.net/~barneym/barnhome.htm
> ______________________________________________________________
I have to keep a can of spray lithium grease handy for my squeaky 4wpw
springs. blast it in the gaps between the leaves.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:42:48 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Spring fiction Pads?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Barney McNamara wrote:
> How do you grease your springs? Do you have to remove them to separate
> the leaves and jam grease in between? Mine squeak like .....
I tried spraying WD40 in mine before and it did no good. (and that was
while I had the springs off the truck) I determined the squeak was
coming from near or in the U-bolt area, rather than out at the far ends
after the squeak persisted. I had to actually separtate the leaves to
get mine.
Scott
- --
_____
/_/_|_\__ Scott Wilson
| _ _ : Santa Clara, CA
*/_\---/_\' http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
(_) (_)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:28:39 -0400
From: Sheldon
Subject: suspension for an 85 toy
To: Toy4x4@off-road.com
>
> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:01:11 -0400
> From: "jfloen"
> Subject: suspension for an 85 toy
> To:
>
> i was just wondering if anyone has any ideas for me on what i should do
> about suspesion in my 85 extracab 4x4.i want 3-4'' lift and a soft
> ride.i've already ruled out nwor,and i'm thinking about a downey setup(for
> the ride).if i have to replace the springs every 2 years i'm fine with that
> too.i've been thinking about the mazda swap too,but i was looking at a set
> of springs(monoleaf)that are supposed to be out of a 69 firebird.they are
> about 13'' longer and have no hole for a centerpin,just a stud welded on,so
> anything is possible.there would be no interleaf friction in a monoleaf
> design anyway.the stud that is welded on for axle location comes right off
> with a hammer and then you can drill your own center-pin holes,so you can
> put your rear axle wherever you want.if i try this i'll let you guys know
> how it works,and let me know what you think of this idea.
>
> darren floen
> 85 toyota extra cab
>
Darren
I'm getting ready to send off pics of my "2 month usage" kinked springs to
Downey tomorrow. They didn,t hold up well at all although they provided a
very nice ride before kink city. I'm hoping to get this resolved this
upcoming week I'll let ya know how it turns out. If they replace em them
for me, then Downey rears seem the way to go if you want a soft supple
rear suspension without swaping to longer springs. Dunno much about the
rep they have for only lasting a few years in my case it was two months,
I hope it was just defective springs.
Sheldon
83ToY4x4
sgard@flnet.com
http://www.flnet.com/~sgard/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:27:25 -0400
From: "jfloen"
Subject: suspension for an 85 toy
To:
thanx for the warning sheldon,but i figure you kinked your springs because
the stock toyota overload leaf was not installed?was it?if it wasn't that
would explain why you liked the ride.:)i'm gonna experiment with a torque
rod setup so i don't have to run the overload leaf.i was looking at the
back issues and came across guys who bought 5'' skyjacker springs and
pulled leaves out of the pack to get the ride height and ride quality they
wanted,sounds like its worth a try and cheaper than alcan springs.i was
going to ask jay k. how he likes the ride of the mazda swap?it must be good
cuz its still the setup in his truck.jay,what springs do you use in the
front??i'm planning a 4.3 swap this winter and i was wondering if you had a
sagging front with nwor springs??i may hold off on the suspension until the
4.3 is in.i'll just have to get my lockers in for now,and find a good use
for some liquid nails and old discarded thermostats.
darren floen
85 extra cab
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:23:17 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Suspension Install Update #3
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
John, have a few questions for you. I also have front alcan springs
with the axle moved forward 1 1/2 inches. What are you running for
steering linkage? I have the ball on top arm. If I am in full
compression without bump stops my drag line will hit the frame. If I
install my stock steering arm my drag link and steering arm bind just
with tires in the air on the rack (would hate to see what would happen
with full droop).
I decided I will stick with less compression and more droop for now
(that is with ball on top steering). This will last until I have more
steering arm problems.
Talking with RMOR, they say people still can run stock steering with the
axle moved 1 inch forward but not 1 1/2. Depending on what happens with
my setup I might have Alcan make new main leaves to move the axle
forward 1 inch instead of 1 1/2.
I do not have a good rear suspension yet. only have about 6-7 inches of
full travel in the rear. Still trying to decide on custom built springs
(Mazda or other) or rear Alcans.
Let us know on you steering.
Tony.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:16:25 -0700
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: Suspension Install Update #3
To: Toy4x4@off-road.com
> I do not have a good rear suspension yet. only have about 6-7 inches of
> full travel in the rear. Still trying to decide on custom built springs
> (Mazda or other) or rear Alcans.
One more time since nobody has replied, what about putting the newer,
longer springs on. With longer shackles you can keep the same mounts
but the shackles will lay back more allowing a softer ride and better
travel, I'm going to give it a try this weekend since no one has advised
otherwise.
On the subject I have a friend with the Alcans and the ball on top (a
converted 93, where I am getting the rear springs), and he has a big
dent in the shock from the steering hitting the shock on droop. when
you guys have the axle moved what do you do about the torque rod and the
steering arm, custom? Mine are both adjustable but I don't think they
will adjust that much. I think I am going to drill a hole in the spring
pad about an inch forward to move the axle but then I have to deal with
the torque rod and the steering stuff.
- --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brandon Miller email: sac78483@saclink.csus.edu
Sacramento, CA millerb@gaia.ecs.csus.edu
url:
http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb
TLCA #6013
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
-----------------------------
Date: 30 Sep 1997 08:08:23 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: suspension for an 85 toy
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Reply to: suspension for an 85 toy
"jfloen" wrote:
>i was going to ask jay k. how he likes the ride of the mazda swap?
I am quite pleased with the springs. They are quite smooth, flex
well and seem to be holding up well. A friend and I just swapped
Mazda springs onto his '80 truck and he likes them as well. Over
the summer I hauled 800-1000 lb. loads of landscaping stuff
probably a dozen times and I hauled 1500-1600 lbs. twice.
The springs sagged way down to the bumpstops but popped right
back up once I unloaded the bed.
>it must be good cuz its still the setup in his truck. jay,what springs
>do you use in the front??
I've been running some homebrew springs up front for about 9 months
now. I use a Datsun 2WD main leaf (about 1" or so longer) and some
other various leaves to make up a five leaf pack.
>i'm planning a 4.3 swap this winter and
>i was wondering if you had a sagging front with nwor springs??
Yes, they did sag on me a tad, but they are simply cheap quality springs.
Hope this helps.........
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 30 Sep 1997 08:24:26 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Suspension Install Update #3
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Reply to: Suspension Install Update #3
Brandon Miller wrote:
>One more time since nobody has replied, what about putting the newer,
>longer springs on. With longer shackles you can keep the same mounts
>but the shackles will lay back more allowing a softer ride and better
>travel, I'm going to give it a try this weekend since no one has advised
>otherwise.
I'm not sure how much longer the newer spring are....some have
said 1" and some have said 4". A 1" increase will provide slight
improvement and if the center pin hole is located correctly,
should bolt right up decently. A 4" longer spring will neccessitate
relocting one or both mounts.
>On the subject I have a friend with the Alcans and the ball on top (a
>converted 93, where I am getting the rear springs), and he has a big
>dent in the shock from the steering hitting the shock on droop. when
>you guys have the axle moved what do you do about the torque rod and the
>steering arm, custom?
I have lengthened my torque rod, added a rod end for articulation,
and made it quick-release for trail removal. I run a stock steering
arm and a dropped draglink.
>Mine are both adjustable but I don't think they
>will adjust that much. I think I am going to drill a hole in the spring
>pad about an inch forward to move the axle but then I have to deal with
>the torque rod and the steering stuff.
You will also need to address the relocation of the bump stop as
it keys with the center bolt on the spring.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 23:23:11 -0700
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: blocks
To: "Toy4x4@tlca.org"
I played around with the 93' springs tonight, although they are not long
enough to overextend the shackle I think they are just too long to run
(stock in flat position are 48", 93's are 51.5"). The span between the
two spring mounts is 45.5", and the shackles are 6" long. This means
when the springs are completely flat the shackle has .5" before it is
overextended. Since stockers are basically flat that is where they
would sit. If I went with and add-a-leaf the 93's would be about 48"
long on level ground, which is where the stock springs are when
completely flat, at their max. length. Effectively the springs could
still move through their full range and would be able to drop a lot
farther than the stock springs, almost another 3". The next problem is
that the hole is offset 1", how hard is it to drill through springs?
I noticed that with the add a leaf that I have now my truck cannot drop
very far, I am thinking of putting blocks in the rear and removing the
add a leaf. Can anyone think of a reason why the add a leaf would be
better than blocks? Finally, my shocks are bottoming out and I don't
think that moving the tops together would be enough, has anybody made
mounts to the rear frame crossmember from the axle? The distance is
fairly far with my longwheelbase (can't say longbed anymore :) ) and the
angle is about 45degrees, but I can't see anywhere else to mount shocks
with the gas tank where it is at. The distance between the axle and the
rear crossmember is about 25". This all started because I had to go
flip my u-bolts...
Regarding the mazda swap, how much longer is the spring behind the
center pin? Will the shackle lay back more? Has anyone found the best
location for the front mount? How far forward does it need to go to
keep the axle in the same spot? I am running 35's and a 2" body lift. I
think if I use the mazda's with the add a leaf out of the springs that I
am running now and my conn fer shackles I should be high enough. Or
maybe a 2-3" block instead of the add a leaf so that I can keep the
springs flexible. It sounds like the mazda's are about the same length
as the newer toyota leafs, I suppose the mazda's are probably softer
though, and you don't need to redrill the center pin.
I just found out that Chris Collard (of the JPeater) is running T100
springs in the rear and the rear springs in the front of his 82ish toy.
I want more rear travel but since I only have one vehicle and not much
money I am limited...
Still confused,
Brandon
- --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brandon Miller email: sac78483@saclink.csus.edu
Sacramento, CA millerb@gaia.ecs.csus.edu
url:
http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb
TLCA #6013
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 23:40:14 -0500
From: Jay Kopycinski
Subject: blocksRe: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #464
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Brandon Miller wrote:
>how hard is it to drill through springs?
I have found that a 3/8" carbide burr in a drill press is the way to go.
>has anybody made
>mounts to the rear frame crossmember from the axle?
Yep....we just did this on an '80 truck. Hope to have pictures
up on a web page some time soon.
>Regarding the mazda swap, how much longer is the spring behind the
>center pin?
Roughly 25" one way, 26" the other.
>Will the shackle lay back more?
It will stand up fairly straight actually....slight angle.
>Has anyone found the best
location for the front mount? How far forward does it need to go to
keep the axle in the same spot?
On my '85 Xtra Cab I trimmed about 3/8" off the new mount and then
butted it against the original mount. On the '80 standard bed we
just did we butted an '85 type mount right next to the original.
>I suppose the mazda's are probably softer
>though, and you don't need to redrill the center pin.
We did not redrill.
>I just found out that Chris Collard (of the JPeater) is running T100
>springs in the rear and the rear springs in the front of his 82ish toy.
>I want more rear travel but since I only have one vehicle and not much
>money I am limited...
Hmmmm.....these must be T100 2WD springs.......
Jay Kopycinski
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 19:28:04 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: 4wpw lifts 81 lb SR5
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
rtupman@uky.campus.mci.net wrote:
> My current question is this, my front springs are sagging so bad they are
> 1" or so from the bump stops. I am interested in the 4wheel parts
> wholesale 3" lift (front springs, rear add-a-leaf and 4 shocks). I know
> that you get what you pay for, but the price is right $180.
>
> My toy has two functions, offroading and getting me around in bad weather,
> ie. rain and snow (I have a 'muftang' conv. that sees neither rain nor
> snow). I like the ride of the stock suspention, how stiff should I expect
> the lift to be? Also how well will this setup work off road? Any
> recommendation would be appreciated. Thanks again for everyones help!!!!!
A friend of mine put the Explorer 3" lift springs you're talking about
on his 85 p/u. (he only paid $100 at one of their big sales). He likes
'em. I never rode in his truck before the lift, but so I can't give you
a ride comparison. I can tell you that after 1.5-2 years they're not
sagging yet.
Scott
- --
_____
/_/_|_\__ Scott Wilson
| _ _ : Santa Clara, CA
*/_\---/_\' http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
(_) (_)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:13:50 -0400
From: Sheldon
Subject: Drive shaft Rear end Prob....
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> 1982 Toyota Pickup with 3 inch suspension lift
> Well, Ive got more info on my drive shaft / rear end problem. When i
> floor it or drop the clutch a little bit, the whole rear axle TWISTS and
> the drive shaft goes up where it meets the rear axle. I also hear loud
> rattling noises from the rear. I grabbed my drive shaft and u joints and
> they are pretty sturdy, but the rear end moves so badly when i give it
> full throttle. Ive also noticed that my seals are leaking gear oil, ive
> heard that my barrings could be out. Everything is mounted fine (such
> as leafsprings and shocks). Please help... Winter is coming and i need
> to get it fixed.
> thankyou!
Had the same problem till last weekend,
"wrote a song about it, wanna hear it , here it goes:)"
You can fab a ladder bar arrangement to keep the axle wrap down,
Btw looking at the cover Jeep on this months petersons he made a real
neat bar to prevent wrap, looks like and old axle and yoke with a center
bolt in one end, attached at two places on the axle check it out on pg35.
Anywho second route is you could add a leaf or two to your pack. I kinked
my Downey rears this summer and had to put my stock rears back on, after
a while I noticed that they to were starting to kink and sag. So I cut
my downey kinked springs threw away the kinked portion and made two leaves
for each of my stock packs. I think one was 28 inches and the other 22.
So I run three stock rear leafs with two additional scavanged ones as
well as the overload adds about 2 inches of lift. It is a little stiffer
ride but not by much, flexes well especially If a turn the shocks to the
softest setting and !!!! I can still get them to fully compress so I
haven't lost much articulation. I'm slowly learning after this summer
that if you run soft suspension it won't last long unless you set it
up just right. I am very happy with the stiffer ride it feels much
better on and off the road funny eh? You probably don't have kinked
Downey rear springs lurking around your garage but methinks that mazda,
nissan or any other lite truck springs would be suitible sacrifices
as long as they are the right width.
Sheldon
btw your seals will last much longer without the axle twisting down
the road:) replace and fix the wrap it will be fine.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 22:12:37 -0700
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: No Custom Springs!
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Greg S. Francis wrote:
>
> Ok guys, now that I have an '88 $Runner that is 3" taller in front, its
> time to repace my horribly sagged 2" Downey springs. I'm looking for a
> quality pair of 3" rear springs that offer a soft ride and resist sagging.
> I'm not interested in custom fabbing spring packs (Mazda?) yet. Are the
> OME truck springs available yet? What else should I look into?
> Thanks for the help
> Greg
>
I'd call Downey first, when I called Trailmaster to tell them their
springs had sagged they shipped me out new ones- no questions asked.
You can get the OME springs but I think that the alcans are better and
even a bit cheaper at $300/pair. You can have them made anyway you want
to, any lift, offset, etc. OME only comes in one size, slightly over
stock.
- --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brandon Miller email: sac78483@saclink.csus.edu
Sacramento, CA millerb@gaia.ecs.csus.edu
url:
http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb
TLCA #6013
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:29:08 -0000
From: runars@isbank.is
Subject: superlift 4 1/2 kit
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Tim wrote:
>Today I was again out looking at different lifts for my 84
>toy and I was at wild country 4x4 and the guy actually guys
>there were really trying to sell me on the superlift 4 1/2
>kit.. it's springs in the front and block and an add a leaf
>in the back. my question is do any of you have any
>experience with this kit or even superlift springs? how do they
>ride, compress up etc. also would it be too wrong to use add a
>leaf's in the back?
>Any info would be good.. thanx
>
>Tim Stucky
>84 toy. (soon to be higher, locked, and re-geared) :)
>>Ive been running addaleaves with longer shackles all summer. it's ok
>>but not a good setup. I am now looking to replace them with real springs.
>>doesn't superlift make a set of rear springs for that lift? Around 200
>>bucks maybe? Also, as I found out addaleves tend to sag, and not at
>>the same rate.
>> Rob 85 4runner
[-->> ] Addaleaves do more than sag. The addaleaves carry most of the
load in the spring pack, and all that load is put on the orginal leafes
where the addaleaves ends, making stress points in the spring pack.
After some time, few years, the addaleaves ends will eat themselfs up
through the leaf above it and finally break it. Addaleaves are a cheap
and lousy solution. Another cheap solution, but not as lousy is to use
addacoils! That is to squise a light rated passanger car coil spring
between the frame and the spring. This does not add any stress to the
leaf pack, and will have the added sideeffect of smothing your ride.
This however is limited in lift (donno how limited, but I guess to about
2"). And this will not increase the drop of the spring to anything
real.
My truck has a spring pack in the rear that is a combination of all
tricks. A pair of addaleafs on each side, 2" blocks, and addacoils.
Its worn to pices, every leafend gone half way up through the leaf
above, etc. Still it rides better in the rear than in the front, which
has a quite a new pair of Ranchos.....
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:06:23 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Alcan springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Tim Stucky asked about Alcan Springs.
Alcan is located in Grand Juntion, CO. I went through Kevin Grove at
RMOR (Rocky Mountain Off Road, also in Grand Junction). The two owners
of RMOR both own Toyota's and have some good knowledge on them. I put a
picture on my web page of my front springs. Left tire lifted on a floor
lift. If I was to lift the rear tire the compressed tire would compress
about 4 more inches and the droop tire would droop about the same. I
will get some better pictures scanned in when I get them developed.
Oh, you can now click on the pictures to see a larger, clearer one.
The Alcan springs run $300 a pair including bushings. A friend of mine
is getting some rear springs ordered to a front hanger moved forward
like doing the Mazda swap. He is also having the rear side of the
spring lengthened to put the shackle at more of an angle (maybe around
40 degrees). Once he gets them and I see how they work I will start
deciding on what to do to the rears.
Toyota Tony.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 3 Nov 1997 09:14:19 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Mazda rear springs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:01 AM
OFFICE MEMO Mazda rear springs Date: 11/3/97
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>Jay, what years of Mazda did your spings come from?
Mids 80s........84-85 I think.
>A friend just put on his rear Alcans. Had the front lengthend using
>another mount (like with the Mazda springs) and had the rear lengthend
>to set the shackle about 45 degrees. They just do not look like they
>work as good as what your pictures show.
>He is going to have them change one of the springs to lower his spring
>rate to see what happens.
The added length should help a lot. The method allows you to
run longer and flatter springs for a better ride and increased
droop since there is very little arch in the springs.
>Also, how do your springs work without the Downey leaf added?
>Would you recommend adding that additional spring (even if it was not
>Downey)? I do know it will be a lot of trial and error.
A lot is going to depend on the thickness, length and number
of leaves you use. We recently completed a swap on a friend's
truck using only Mazda leaves. It came out very nice. I'm working
on a web article detailing it, but haven't found time to complete
it just yet.
We found 5 leaves worked best for us.....whether Downey or Mazda.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 21:40:07 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Alcans phone number
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I do not know Alcan Springs phone number but you can call Kevin, Alvin
or James at Rocky Mountain Off Road. They could give you the number and
probably answer any questions about Alcan's springs. Maybe even give
you some ideas. They are good people to deal with. Even though someone
out there had shipping problems.
RMOR number 1-800-524-6005
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:52:39 -0700
From: Allan Davis
Subject: OME suspension kit - results
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I thought I should share my experiences with this kit here in case
anyone is interested.
I installed a complete kit with 4 springs and shocks, steering
stabilizer, greaseable shackles, and rancho bump stops a couple months
ago in my 83 PU (original springs were sagging severly and I had a
broken leaf in back; original shocks after 130,000 miles were okay,
believe it or not, but spindly-looking). It was pretty straightforward;
no major problems. Penetrating oil and air wrenches are gifts from
above.
I have only been in the mountains once, and was impressed with the
increase in "flexibility" over the stock suspension. I went on a
familiar trail close to my home, so the difference was apparent
immediately. I found I could travel most of the trail in 2wd, which I
certainly couldn't do before. As the wheels were always on the ground,
my lack of lockers (on this trail) wasn't as apparent either.
Anyway, I am VERY pleased with this product. It wasn't cheap (~$1200),
but I like this truck and intend to keep it a loooong time (I've had it
9 years already), so the money isn't significant. I canvassed many Toy
pickup owners about their suspension kits and found no one happy with
theirs except those with custom setups. OME's reputation convinced me
to try it, and I am glad I did. By the way, the street ride is about
the same as the stock ride (not the ride with broken/sagging springs,
but the ride when new). My ride height is increased maybe 2.5 inches.
I have had one problem, though, which is why I have only been off-road
once. The rear shackles invert in severe droop situations! OME has a
cure for this for Australian market trucks, but they don't have it here!
That is kind of a pain for me, but not too much. OME sent me a fax with
the details of their fix, but I think instead I will fab a piece that
prevents the rear shackles from rolling too far. If anyone is
interested in specifics, let me know.
Anyway, sorry for the diatribe, but I thought that I would like to read
about someone's experience with a product if I were considering its
purchase. Please contact me with any questions.
Allan
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:54:32 -0800
From: Eric Stegall
Subject: Alcan Springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
At 12:30 AM 11/8/97, you wrote:
>From: Brandon Miller
>Subject: Alcan Springs because NWOR sucks!!!
>Eric Stegall wrote:
>> ...I called Alcan to see how much and how fast they could get me some
>> springs. The sales guy at Alcan knew his stuff so well that I
>> ordered a set of 5" springs on the spot.
>
>Do you mean RMOR? If you mean Alcan did you get a better deal than
>300/pair? What was the number?
I ordered directly from Alcan. The price was the same...$150ea / $300pr.
This did not include tax or shipping, but at least I do not have to deal
with that OTHER place. Alcan's number: (970) 241-2655.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:18:23 -0800
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: NWOR & other dealer options
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I've got the NWOR pins, I believe downey also has them. They were out
when I bought mine, they suggested finding someone with a drill press
and making you own, said it pretty simple. I decided it wasn't worth
the hassle and bought some. Just a side note, after putting greasable
bolts front and rear I realized my squeek is because the the springs are
sliding on top of each other (the rubber that was once there is probably
gone), so the greasables were a waste of $.
If someone wants to start stockpiling stories for NWOR I've got a few...
- --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brandon Miller email: sac78483@saclink.csus.edu
Sacramento, CA millerb@gaia.ecs.csus.edu
url:
http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb
TLCA #6013
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 11 Nov 1997 13:39:16 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Greaseable front spring pins
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:55 PM
OFFICE MEMO Greaseable front spring pins Date: 11/10/97
Someone wrote:
Anyway, I am looking for greaseable front spring pins for an
'85 4Runner - anyone know where to get some of these guys?
OME makes some pretty nice ones. I think they run about $45
a set. You can get 'em from a place here in Phoenix called
Offroad Unlimited (1-800-947-7007). Ask for Ken. He can
get all the OME stuff for Toys.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 10:03:21 -0600
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Subject: front leaf springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>the front leaf springs are totally shot on my 82 4x4 - dont really want to
>put a lift kit on it at the present time and no one really seems to sell
>replacement springs except Toyota ($$$!). what does anyone know about
If you're wanting the cheap way out a local spring company should be able to
sell you a set for around $200 for the pair. OR if you don't mind a lift
that's cheap 4wpw has a $199 3 or 4" lift (maybe that's $189 - 3", 199 - 4")
It comes with NEW front springs, 4 shocks, Add-a-leaf or blocks for the rear.
Not a bad deal, and actually does OK - better than stock but not as good as
$300/pr alcan front springs (you get what you pay for?)
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:28:35 EST
From: DRM033
Subject: front leaf springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-12-09 00:32:18 EST, you write:
> he front leaf springs are totally shot on my 82 4x4 - dont really want to
> put a lift kit on it at the present time and no one really seems to sell
> replacement springs except Toyota ($$$!). what does anyone know about
> getting leaf springs re-conditioned?? and are there realiable people here
> in the SF bay area??
If you mean an ad-a-leaf or replacement leaf (what they usually do) it is not
a bad way to go. If you want a cheap way to get back to stock height, go for
it. I an across the country, so no help on a local shop. It should cost you
about $30 - $40 per spring.
> Also: would this explain why my truck 'lists' to one side (driver side) in
> the front or is this more likely a problem with the body to frame
> bushings?? (shocks and sway bar bushings have been replaced).
Yes, this could be the reason. Springs are not all exactly the same, and
some will "fail" sooner than others. Make sure if end up just helping out
your stock springs, you check them over closely for cracks & broken leaves.
David
DRM033@aol.com
-----------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:29:32 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Rear Alcan springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I had a friend get some rear Alcan springs that work real well.
They are lengthend and you have to put a front mount forward like the
Mazda springs.
The drawback (probably for the Mazda springs too) is you need the wider
IFS rear axle to work good.
One friend has stock axle and is limited because of the tire hitting the
frame. Another has an IFS axle and works real well.
Tony.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:25:14 -0500
From: Darren Floen
Subject: custom front springs
To: Toy4x4
Well,after working all day and all night i finally finished my custom
front springs for my 85 Toy.
Heres what i used:-stock toyota main leaf
-complete rear spring pack(incl.main leaf w.o.eyes)from my old j**p yj.
-lower load leaf from front yj pack
I pulled apart the frontend of my truck,and dropped the axle as low as
the brake lines would stretch(too lazy to remove them).I then had enough
room to pull apart the stock spring pack and start experimenting with
springs.What i ended up with is a 6 leaf pack that is way softer than
stock.I messed around with alot of different spring combos before i
decided to leave this setup alone for a bit of testing.Once i had it all
back together,i brought out my ramps and blocks and began to play.I was
very immpressed with the front axle articulation.With the drivers side
front tire and the pass.side rear tire on ramps iwas able to get 14" of
articulation (full stuff to full droop)as measured from the hub to
fender lip,before the brake lines became a limiting factor.I was able to
flatten the bumpstops against the frame on compression.Now i need to
order my RS9000's and fab up some new mounts!The only other thing that i
might do is to play around abit to get another inch or so of lift out of
the springs.The ride is very plush and smooth,but i still need to firm
it up a tad.
Just thought i'd let you know how my trucks progressing.
Darren Floen
85 xtra cab
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brandon D. Miller"
Subject: custom front springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Did you clamp the springs together? How do you keep the springs from
sliding sideways? Just curious before I rip apart my Trailmaster
springs......
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:28:42 -0500
From: Darren Floen
Subject: custom front springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Ya i used the factory spring clamps from the jeep springs.When i pulled
those apart i heated them up and bent them straight up so that i could
seperate the springs.Once the new packs were assembled i again carefully
heated them and bent the down loosely(not hammered tight).One really
nice thing about the jeep springs is the anti friction pads,they are
fairly thick with good tits through the springs so they won't fall out.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:48:55 -0500
From: Darren Floen
Subject: custom front springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I WROTE:
Ya i used the factory spring clamps from the jeep springs.When i pulled
those apart i heated them up and bent them straight up so that i could
seperate the springs.Once the new packs were assembled i again carefully
heated them and bent the down loosely(not hammered tight).One really
nice thing about the jeep springs is the anti friction pads,they are
fairly thick with good tits through the springs so they won't fall out.
Another thing Branden,if you are going to do this with stock srings,you
pretty much have to remove all the stock leaves except the main
leaf,because they don't want to conform to the same arc as the YJ
springs.Thats why i used all three spring clamps from the YJ,in case the
main leaf breaks,i'll have something trying to hold everything together!
Darren
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 18 Dec 1997 08:30:36 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Lift & Wipers
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:19 AM
OFFICE MEMO Lift & Wipers Date: 12/18/97
rtupman@uky.campus.mci.net wrote:
>1. I am installing a Pro Comp 3" lift and ES3000 shocks. 4WPW said to cut
>the rear add-a-leaf, to make the ride less harsh, so that they rest flat
>agianst the rest of the spring pack. Is this advisable? Any helpful
>instructions for the install or shortcuts that may make the job easier ?!?!?
Yes, you can cut the leaf using a metal cutting abrasive blade.
I use a table saw, or a circular saw when I need more portability.
The one thing you have to watch for when doing this is to make
sure that the length you pick works well with the flex of the
spring. I can't decribe it in good detail, but essentially you
need to make sure that when the pack bottoms and/or flexs
backwards, it does not bind or kink at the end of the add-a-leaf.
If it does, you risk breaking or bending the pack.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:12:54 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: NWOR springs
To: Toyota 4x4 List
Jason Wilson wrote:
>Can anyone tell me if the 3.5" front springs from Northwest Off-Road
>Specialties for the solid axle are any good. I right now I have 3.5" Rough
>Country springs, and they're so stiff that I hardly have any flex. I
>called Alcan Springs, and they quoted me $145 per spring, and NWOR springs
>are only $139.95 for a pair in their catalog. I also checked on the price
>of the Old Man Emu springs, and they run around $156 per spring.
Uh oh....should I tell him guys ???
You get what you pay for. The NWOR springs are cheap and stiff.
Maybe ok if you only run mud, but WAY too stiff for crawling.
The Alcans and OME run more because they use more leaves
and use a more complicated manufacturing process......such
as the special arch OME uses in their springs.......
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:03:11 -0800
From: "Todd and Terry Steele"
Subject: NWOR springs
To:
Jason wrote:
>Can anyone tell me if the 3.5" front springs from Northwest Off-Road
>Specialties for the solid axle are any good
Go with the Alcans or the Old Man Emu. If you go with NWOR, You'll be
sorry!!!!
Todd
His: 87 Toyota 4X4, Marlin Tcase #180, EZ Lockers F/R, Custom rear bumper
and nerfs, Ramsey F bumper, Trailmaster/Superlift 4", 30-11.50-15 TSL SX's
on AR Type 23 15X8. Custom Body by Sierra Nevada.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:28:48 -0000
From: runars@isbank.is
Subject: NWOR springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
The special arch in the OME is that they have a flat axle seat area.
This has something to do with not prestressing the leafs when thighting
the Ubolts. It's suposed to make the spring smoother and longer
lasting.
Also the OME springs are pre saggered, that is OME guaranties that the
lift will stay. OME are probably the highest quality leafs ever made,
but on the stiffer side I belive (havent tried them myself). Tefoln
pads between leafs, greasanble shackle pins, bla,bla...
Runar.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:41:09 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: NWOR springs
To: Toyota 4x4 List
Kinda...... the OME springs are not a constant arch they have a longer
flat area in the spring at the middle of the overall arch.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:28:36 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: NWOR springs
To: Toyota 4x4 List
runars@isbank.is wrote:
>The special arch in the OME is that they have a flat axle seat area.
>This has something to do with not prestressing the leafs when thighting
>the Ubolts. It's suposed to make the spring smoother and longer
>lasting.
Well put Runar. I couldn't remember the specific reason myself.
>Also the OME springs are pre saggered, that is OME guaranties that the
>lift will stay. OME are probably the highest quality leafs ever made,
>but on the stiffer side I belive (havent tried them myself). Tefoln
>pads between leafs, greasanble shackle pins, bla,bla...
I agree....nicest springs I've seen. The ones I've seen for Toy
trucks/4Runners were actually fairly soft.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:18:39 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Coil over shocks
To:
>> Harsh rides come from spring rates that are too high, when was
>> the last time you heard someone claim, my truck's ride is just too soft ?
>
>I hear it on a regular basis right here on this list. Too soft, too
>mushy, bottoms out too easily, etc., etc.
You sure you're not confusing all the statements made about
different types of shocks ....
The 'bottoms out too easily' statements most likely come from guys with
IFS and they're refering to their front ends only, as IFS can bottom quite
easily with the bars turned up a bit for cheap lift. I don't recall
anyone with leaf springs saying they were too soft or mushy ....
The frame/body on my truck roll like a late 70's Buick land yacht ...
cloverleaf interstate on-ramps are taken 5 mph below the suggested
speed limit .... perhaps a sway bar and/or front and rear panhard
rods would help me out but my springs still aren't too soft and I
consider my suspension quite soft ...
- jack
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:27:38 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Coil over shocks
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Jack Alford wrote:
> The 'bottoms out too easily' statements most likely come from guys with
> IFS and they're refering to their front ends only, as IFS can bottom quite
> easily with the bars turned up a bit for cheap lift.
Actually, this would be the guys with sagging bars that are letting the
truck ride lower than it should. The guys with the bars turned up A LOT
sometimes will hit the lower bumpstops (for extension)...but that isn't
bottoming out.
I've got mine turned up an inch or so, and I don't ever hit the bump
stops during on-road driving. (Unless I'm horsing around too much :-)
But my RS5000's are reasonably stiff, so that helps.
Scott
- --
_____
/_/_|_\__ Scott Wilson TLCA #5261 CA4WDC #13393
| _ _ : 88 4Runner SR5 V6
*/_\---/_\' Santa Clara, CA
(_) (_) http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:38:04 -0600
From: breeze@cysource.com (Jeffrey Delzer)
Subject: Coil over shocks
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
AFAIK, shocks have as much to do with ride quality as springs do, so
it's entirely possible that I'm lumping it all together.
Jeff Delzer
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:18:53 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: front spring question
To: Toyota 4x4 List
Darren Floen wrote:
Warning.....rambling mode on......spring discussion......
snip
>There are considerable advantages to using a
flat spring and i think this is the only way to go for good ride and
travel.
Yes, flat springs work well. You essentially start at a neutral point
and then bend the spring from there. Your droop capability is
much better with a flat spring as opposed to an arched spring
because the flat spring can bend into an arch for more down travel.
The arched spring has already used up much of its useable spring
length in the arch itself. Flatter springs also typically have better
upward travel too by the mere fact that they are generally a lighter
spring rate and allow you to use all your travel up to the bumpstops.
Not well said....but hopefully somewhat understandable.
Now....flat springs generally work better on Jeeps due to the frame
design. Toyotas tend to need more spring arch for good lift heights.
The Mazda spring swap, for example, uses fairly flat packs that
do not offer lots of lift. However, with the lowered forward spring
mount and longer rear shackles 3+ inches of lift is possible.
>Jay any details to share on your front springs?How come its not
>on your page??? :-)
Dunno why it's not on my page. I've been running them for about
a year now and wasn't sure how well they would work. I'm pretty
pleased with 'em at this point. Here's what I did........
I'm running a homebrew five leaf pack up front. The main leaf
is a mid 70s Datsun 2WD main leaf (0.280" I think). This leaf
is about 1.25" or so longer than the POS NWOR springs I removed.
BTW.....they're for sale to anyone that wants 'em......cheap.
Under that is the military wrap second leaf from a Downey 3" lift
rear spring. This fit on the Datsun leaf just fine. All I had to do was
redrill the center pin hole on the Downey leaf. I wanted the military
wrap leaf for extra strength in the main, and as a safety factor.
Following this leaf are three other leaves from either the Downey
rear packs or Mazda packs. They are progessively shorter with the
bottom leaf fairly short.
These springs work well. They are nice and flexy. One problem
is that my 2" over shackles lean back a bit too much. This is due
to the added pack length. I'll be fixing this....more later. I have
my front axle relocated 1" forward from stock and my fender tails
trimmed a fair bit, but still find my 33" BFG Muds in the fender
on occasion. With the laid back shackles and longer, flatter
springs, I have MUCH more droop than the front steering system
and short driveshaft is capable of handling. I run limit straps
because of this. I need to do steering and driveshaft mods to
fix this.
As I said, I've run these springs for about a year now and have
run quite a number of hard core trails with them. One thing I would
have liked to have tried is six leaves on the front. I would have
removed the short, lower leaf and replaced it with two longer leaves.
I think this might provide even better pack strength and road
stability, while still keeping them flexy. I could not do this because
as the pack grows in thickness, it starts to interfere with the lower
end of the draglink...actually the draglink would hit the u-bolt.
When I did the swap, I lost about 1" of lift. I do want that inch back,
but I don't want to give up my flatter springs. I've decided to drop
my front spring mounts about 2.5". I've built a crossmember with
new spring hangers. It is setup to accomodate up to 2.5" wide
springs (more spring possibilities).
This won't increase my front approach angle at the springs, but
will give me the frame/body lift I want. Since I've wheeled with
the current lift for a year I am now satisfied I will be fine with the
lower front mounts.
At the same time as I drop the mounts, I will be moving the springs
(and axle) forward an additional inch. this should help with the
fender rubbing problems. Moving the axle won't be possible
though until I come up with some other steering system that
can handle the new geometry. The dropped front mount will
also allow me to remove the 3 degree shims I currently run.
Probably way more than you wanted to know...but oh well.....
Comments always welcome :-)
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 19:32:37 -0500
From: Sheldon Gardner
Subject: Front Springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Funny you should mention front springs. My 3 inch softride's were having a
problem with the top leaf kinking and needed some more support cus they
were on the verge of bending to ruination. I found a pair of TOY 2wd rear
springs off an 82 " it was a three leaf pack including overload. I did
some measuring, turned out the top leaf off the 82 was just about as long
as the 3 inch Softride units. I cut the looped ends off the top 82 leaf
pack, then installed it right under the top leaf of the Softrides. When
said and done I got a bit over an inch more lift in the front. I'd bet
that some 2 or 3 inch shackles and using the deeply arched TOY rear
springs might net you a good 3 or 4 inches of lift. I currently run 4
leafs in front but might experiment with a 5 leaf pack, planning of
adding a winch somewhere in the future.
Btw with my front spring combo and running a 2 inch over shackle I need to
use a 3deg shim to get the pumpkin to sit level and with the rear springs
new holes will need to be drilled.
Sheldon
atzmkt@sunline.net
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 02:14:00 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Inboard shocks?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Ive used two designs in the past for the front of the Solid axle rigs. I
don't see any point on Toy IFS as the travel is not enough to bother.
The basic reason is not to lower the unsprung mass as in a race car but
to compensate for shock travel limitations. For between 5-8 in lift you
generally have a problem with the up travel on the shock limiting
overall travel. You can solve this by lowering the bumpstop but that
seems a little but silly limiting good travel. Another way is to
relocate the upper mount but after you get to 5 inch the shock has to go
out the hood. So to get the extra shock travel for up to 8inch lift you
build a twin shock setup on a lever at the top. First fabricate a "T"
type lever so the shocks mount on each end of the T with the pivot point
in the middle. The main shock mount in the standard lower position and
to the T bar on top. The second mounts to the T bar and to the frame
rail. The angles of the shocks form a slight V. When the main shocks top
out the lever starts to move and compresses the second shock. If you rig
more shock travel than needed you wont either crush or pull apart your
shocks. With lifts above 8 inch this wont work as the T Bar gets to
long. This allows the tyres to contact under full lock turns. From this
point you rig a lever from the front of the frame back to above the
standard shock. The lever is parallel with the ground and passes through
the frame under behind the power steering box so as to clear the
draglink and pittman arm. Spline the rod and use bearings on the frame
to lever surfaces. Link the lower shock mount to the lever with a solid
rod. Link a lever for inside the engine bay. This needs to be shorter
than the main lever. This will reduce the shock travel. Mount you new
shocks inside the engine bay by fabricating a hoop mount off the frame.
Tricks to the setup are to relocate the battery to gain clearance and
move the air cleaner back 3 inch. I set mine up to reduce travel by a
factor of 3 and added triple shocks to compensate for increased force.
-----------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:25:21 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Moving spring hangers
To: Toyota 4x4 List
From: "Roger Brown P.E." wrote:
>I've been looking to reposition the front axle on my '85 4Runner to
>eliminate rubbing at the rear of the wheel well with 33" tires. The
>traditional method is to re-drill the center bolt holes in the spring
>perch. However, my front springs seem to be a bit longer than stock
>(the shackles swing all the way back at rest) and I was thinking it
>might be possible to move the front spring hanger forward to accomplish
>the same end result with the axle.
>
>Has anyone done this or have opinions on the project?
I am doing (as Darren had suggested) something along these lines.
I am building an add-on crossmember that will fit below the stock
front crossmember. My new hanger holes will sit about 2.5" lower
than stock and about 1.25" forward. This will allow me to run flatter
springs and retain good lift height. I've got most of the crossmember
built but it may be a while until I get it on the truck.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:09:07 -0600
From: alford-jw
Subject: Moving spring hangers.
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I've looked into doing this quite seriously. Jay and I have discussed it
throughly.... you could do this without dropping the spring hangers to
gain cheap lift but by dropping the crossmember you can run flatter,
softer springs and still have the same amount of lift. I'd look into
using a piece of 2x4 3/16" wall box tubing for the crossmember. I'd also
look into using the spring hangers from a vehicle that has 2.5" (the
mounts from Jeeps can be bought for cheap from the dealer to avoid
fabricating them, Some dodges too ) springs to allow yourself to run
some 2.5" springs in the future should the need arise, lots more 2.5"
spring possiblites than 2.25" like Toys have. For now you could just
run 1/8" spacers on both sides of the spring bushing to take up the
slack from the 2.25" spring in the 2.5" spring hanger.
If you don't want the lift, just get a piece of 1/2" x 4 plate steel and
mount the spring hanger to that and then weld that to the truck, be sure
to add braces where the old spring hangers were. You need to make this
plate or tube as long as the front crossmember with the holes to help
distribute the load ...This plate or box tube will block the old tow
hooks. I'd either look into some full size chevy or Nissan tow hooks
that run horizontally instead of vertically like the Toy ones do ...
I know the rocks have 'closed' my tow hooks quite a bit from some battles
with rocks where the rocks won ....
- jack
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:17:24 -0500
From: Scott
Subject: buggy spring for yotas
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
At 07:00 PM 3/2/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I have seen many jeeps in magazines that have the extra spring between the
frame and the shackle (buggy spring). I was wondering if anyone has done
this or seen it done to a yota p/u so I can get some ideas.
>
I have them in the rear of my 84 p/u. I used old cruiser springs, about
2.5" long. Bolted to the frame with 3/4" bolts. I also installed a
panhard rod to keep side sway to a minimum. With the stock springs with a
couple of Chevy leaves thrown in, its good for about 3-4" of extra droop.
If I ever get around to the Mazda setup, it should net even more.
Scott
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:09:22 -0000
From: runars@isbank.is
Subject: parts needed
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
We do.... Reason, to get in bigger tires for more floatation... Fuck
the articulation, just get a locker and drive with one tire in the
air.......no problem...(maby not quite, but close....;-)
Good long travel is always good, in any vehicle. But things can be
overdone. Davids point is (and mine), why spend a $$$ on something that
gets you two more inches of travel when you allready have 12" of travel.
Those two additional inches are probably not going to get you any
further anyway, and might have some serius sideeffects.
A fellow called Aristoteles once stated that one should always follow
the golden medium, not the extremes.....!
Yes, its a trend. Some years back the trend was heavy duty stuff, for
heavy duty people. Today it's soft stuff for super twisting. Next it
will be.......
Cheers,
Runar.
--------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:19:49 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Buggy Springs why so bad???
>Why do you feel the buggy springs are so bad and what kind
>of stresses are you referring to?
The longer the buggy spring the more stress on the frame attachment
bolts. The stress exceeds the levels of a grade 10 bolt with a link over
3 in. You can get around this but at the end of the day the complexity
of the mount V's the travel gained is not worth it. It is far simpler to
go with a double jointed shackle or shackles on both ends. I use a
double jointed shackle on one end and a single on the other. Any one of
these alternatives will wield much more travel and are a lot easier to
do. I will refrain from sending you the figures but I ran it through my
simulator with a spring mounted with ½ inch grade 8 bolts. The whole
setup fractured the frame in low speed crawling. The bolts sheered off
under road conditions. This is why I refrain from using this setup
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:21:55 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: V link
Ranar Wrote
>You have a triangle, one end is mounted to the frame, and the
>other two carry the tires. The arm between the tires is the axle
>itself, and the other two are the locating arms.
Runar ,Now you get it right on the money !.
The key is to have no pivot points at the axle end. You pivot in 2
planes at the crossmember (Up/Down and Turn). With fixed mount on the
axle twist and therefor caster and toe-in changes (steering stuff) are
controlled. The mounts on the crossmember and the crossmember itself
need to be very strong to take the loads /abuse on the truck. The
replacement crossmember is braced and forms a boxed in X with the centre
bearing mount. The centre bearing mount is rotated 180 degrees and bolts
to the new mount. The pivot points are setup with bearings. I use a stub
axle design. The dimensions match 90% of the trailer stub axles and
bearings. I do this for ease of spares and is about 5 times more
strength than needed. A fixed tube is welded through the new crossmember
(like the stock shackle hanger in the solid toy's). The stub axle and
bearing mount in the tube. The Stub axle protrudes 8 inches beyond the
bearings. The OD of the stub is cut down on the lathe and a metric fine
thread added. The stub is then drilled for a split pin fitment later.
>From a solid block of steel, I then Mill down from a square block to a
Triangle with rounded edges. One end is cut to screw onto the stub. The
remaining sides are drilled to accept trailer bearings. On this same
side the centre is cut out. A piece of solid rod is cut to inset in the
cutout section. This is then drilled to accept bearings. A small
diameter solid rod (to go through the bearings) is cut and a thread is
added to each end. The V link arm is then cut from solid rod. One end is
then radius cut and welded to the insert. The other end is then cut to a
stub axle design. The link rods mounts for the diff are made from box
section. I cut the box to be welded onto the diff upper and lower. The
box section tapers off at the wheel end and braces the upper and lower
axle (same as the LC axles) I use LC axles so this was already done on
my truck. Tubes are welded and braced to the under side of the box,
again which accept bearings inside. The rods then assemble one on each
side in a V shape. Just so it is clear you have Two rods mounted to the
diff which are mounted to a single pivot point on the crossmember.
>I was thinking the link was attached near the front bumper, like
>the torque arm setup.
The frame attachment needs to be done on the end with the fixed pivot.
If you use shackles on one end you will attach ate the bumper. If you
reverse the shackles you attach at the crossmember. If you have shackles
on each end you can do it either way but the crossmember attachment will
give better results.
>Is there one or two links at the front axle?
2 links in a V Shape. The wide end at the axle
>What keeps it from twisting with a dual shackle setup.
Side to side movement of the axle is controlled by the springs and the V
link. Axle wrap is controlled via the V Link.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:21:25 -0500
From: Karl Bellve
Subject: Re: Stock Suspensoin
At 01:55 PM 3/19/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi everyone,
>
> I have an 85' 4x4 with 22r engine. I bought it about three years ago, and
>ever since I bought it, the front leaf springs have seemed to sag reall
>bad. There is only a few inches between the top of the spring and the
>bottom of the frame. It still has the original spings. Is this normal?
>Would new shocks help, or should I think about a suspension lift? I
>already have a 3" body lift, and I don't really want to go any higher.
>THanks in advance.
This is normal. Unlike the rear springs, where the arch is facing down(right
terms??), the front springs arch is up and should be 2-3 inches from the
bump stops. The sure do not allow much upward movement but alot of downward
movenment.
Cheers,
Karl Bellve, Ph.D.
Biomedical Imaging Group
University of Massachusetts
email: kdb@molmed.ummed.edu
www : http://molmed.ummed.edu/~kdb/
phone: 508-856-3785
fax : 508-856-1840
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:43:45 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: buggy springs
>I just read how you put buggy springs on a simulator and got the
>truck to self destruct.
To explain the simulator first. I have a Cray midrange with Sun Spark
stations. The Cray does the number crunching and the Suns do the real
time graphics modelling. I also have a number of IBM PC workstations
which run other simulations. I have the Toy frame in the simulator and
can run a mod in real or extended time. The whole setup is linked to the
Mills lathes ect. Blueprints are kept in the system and can be recalled
from the terminals on the shop floor.
>What kind of forces were you subjecting the frame/suspension to?
>I had a panhard rod set up for a while
It depends on the rate of the spring, the length and mount as well as
the travel of the suspension. The panhard will help a lot. If you have
the weight of the truck on one wheel (pushing one down) you are exerting
about 6 tonne on the opposing leaf spring (depending on spring rates and
vehicles weight). This 6 ton is transferred to the buggy spring. If you
bolts are say 3 inch apart and a 12 in long spring is used the force
will be 3 time higher on the second bolt (18 tonne) A ½ inch grad 8
bolt has a tensile strength of 9.7 Tonne, a 3/8 in a fine thread would
be much better.
>I have the buggy springs attached to the frame with 1/2" inch bolts,
>which I don't think are even grade 8. Maybe grade 5.
Grade 5 will break at 7.7 Tonne.
>If I were to but buggy springs on the front, I would do a lot more
>engineering, with some sort of link or something. At that point, I
>agree with you, other methods would be simpler, and give better
>results.
The stress is a lot more on the front but a double shackle in the rear
will still be easier to do, be safer and give you more travel. For this
reason alone I don't do the buggy spring's
>should be waiting for impending doom.
It depends in the factors above
>Will the softer springs play havoc with the buggy springs as well?
Softer springs put less load on the buggy spring
>I got your response about your plans for TonkaTuff3, but did not
>get the pictures. Is there something I need to do to decode these
>pictures?
Look for the attachments in you e-mail program. If they have been
removed along the way let me know and I will resend. All the files were
GIF and Zip. The GIF files you can view with your browser the Zip files
will need to be uncompressed first.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:59:43 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: buggy springs
>It depends on the rate of the spring, the length and mount as well as
>the travel of the suspension. The panhard will help a lot. If you have
>the weight of the truck on one wheel (pushing one down) you are exerting
>about 6 tonne on the opposing leaf spring (depending on spring rates and
>vehicles weight). This 6 ton is transferred to the buggy spring. If you
>bolts are say 3 inch apart and a 12 in long spring is used the force
>will be 3 time higher on the second bolt (18 tonne) A ½ inch grad 8
>bolt has a tensile strength of 9.7 Tonne, a 3/8 in a fine thread would
>be much better.
I don't dispute the numbers that your computers came up with but there are
far too many people all across the US running buggy leafs and I haven't heard
a single problem. One being, Don Campbell (AZ Rock Buggy) who to the best of
my knowledge was the first to use buggy leafs in a 4x4 application. His
trucks are built rock solid in fact I believe he pulled out his rock crawling
engine and dropped in another and ran part of some Baja type race...
Didn't hear of his buggy leaf bolts breaking. And his buggy leaf springs
are on his front springs.
- jack
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:09:37 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Stock Suspension
>arch only. To keep the stock springs and fix the problem. First go and
>weigh the weight on the front axle. Remove the springs and shocks from
>the truck. weld a support from the top of the shock tower to the inside
>edge of the frame. Pull apart the spring pack and remove all of the
Do you have any picture of what you're talking about here with welding the
support from the shock tower to the frame. I see the reason since they are
going to be bearing most of the weight of the truck.
>leaves except for the first two. Re install them on the truck. In place
>of the stock shocks use Coil over shocks (not 4 way type). The retailer
>of the shocks can get the correct coil if you give him the weight you
>got earlier. With the coil overs the weight of the truck is controlled
>via the shocks and the springs only locate the axle. You can use this
>setup all the way up to 9 in lift with good results.
Say I wanted to get 4-5 inches of lift out of this method. How good
would compression be since the coil over shocks are bearing most of
the load ? I know coils have less friction and would therefore probably
do better than leafs.
Any other donwsides to doing this? Seems like a good cheap method to me.
Though it would obviously have to be done with some sort of traction
bar to control axle wrap.
And lastly how expensive are a set of coil overs to perform this task ??
How long do they make coil overs ? Seeing as how they would be bearing
the load of the truck they really couldn't be mounted at such an angle
like a normal leaf/shock combo to maximize travel of the shock.
Thanks for sharing all your info James !
- jack
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:50:01 -0800
From: Dan Merrick
Subject: Re: Straight axle springs
The best thing to do for tired old straight axle springs is replace them.
If you are going to keep your truck for longer than a year, I would get
some Alcan springs from Rocky Mountain Off-Road(RMOR). They can build you
custom leaf springs for $150 each($300/pair, duh!), which is a great price
for custom springs! They specialize in Toyotas, and have tons of info. Call
them at (800)524-6005. They are in Colorado. I think "Toyota Tony" has some
pictures of some of their trucks on his webpage.(Tony's address?)
Impressive amounts of wheel travel. Decide what size tires you want to run,
as this dictates how much lift you need.
Call RMOR and tell them what you want. I am sure they will help you out.
Read archive editions of the Toy homepage, and you will be convinced of how
good their springs are. I personally would get 1-2" lift, use 31" tires,
get rid of your body lift, and run the best shocks you can afford. Don't
buy the Northwest Off Road springs--they are too stiff! Downey has nice
springs for about $200 a pair, but may sag after a few years. You can lift
the rear with shackles, blocks, springs, or a softride add a leaf. Get rid
of the overload leaf unless you carry heavy loads often.
Just my two cents worth.
Dan
--------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:59:05 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: buggy springs
>Didn't hear of his buggy leaf bolts breaking. And his buggy leaf
>springs are on his front springs.
I'm not saying that this setup will not work. I think you missed what I
was saying. I had 3 points. First be aware of the stresses and use the
correct bolts so breakage does not occur. Second If you compare the
travel gained by buggy springs and double jointed shackles the buggy
springs give less travel for the same long spring setup. Third my point
was in comparing Buggy springs and Double jointed shackles the buggy
springs increase the loads on the frame through two bolt points and the
shackle setup distributes lesser load over a wide area of the frame.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:02:06 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Stock Suspension
>Do you have any picture of what you're talking about here with
>welding the support from the shock tower to the frame.
No I don't have a pic of this. The shock tower mounts on the outer edge
of the frame. As the suspension moves the tower will flex at right
angles to the frame. This puts stress on the welded lower mount. The
brace is from the top of the tower to the outer edge of the frame. This
will remove the flex and distribute the load for coil overs.
>Say I wanted to get 4-5 inches of lift out of this method. How good
>would compression be since the coil over shocks are bearing most of
>the load ? I know coils have less friction and would therefore
>probably do better than leafs.
Lake all things it's a trade off. The leaf packs have a damping effect
due to the friction of the leaves. With a coil setup of any for you need
higher shock rates to compensate. As for load, the leaves locate the
axle as per normal but the coils bear the load. The compression will be
slightly better than normal, ie the suspension will have a faster
response hence the higher shock rates. As for a 4-5 inch lift use a set
of 4-5 in main leaves from an old dead set of leaves. The rates are not
important just the length to locate the axle so old sagged springs
someone is throwing away are perfect. You can probably get them for free
from your local suspension shop.
>Any other donwsides to doing this? seems like a good cheap method
>to me. Though it would obviously have to be done with some sort
>of traction bar to control axle wrap.
There are advantages in the coil over shocks in that the shocks are
generally rebuildable. On the rear you will need something to control
the wrap. Up front you already have the torque rod which will do the
job.
>And lastly how expensive are a set of coil overs to perform this task
About 2-3 times the price of normal shocks. But there is a long term
trade off in the rebuilding of the shock an the lesser cost of the
springs. If you get the second hand leave for free is cheaper or the
same price overall as a new suspension kit
>How long do they make coil overs ?
You can get just about any length you need
>Seeing as how they would be bearing the load of the truck they really
>couldn't be mounted at such an angle like a normal leaf/shock
>combo to maximise travel of the shock.
This is not a problem at. The coil just has a higher rate.
You are obviously thinking of this a but more advanced than what I
posted. I was replying to correct sock height springs in the front. To
do an all over conversion with a raised height the simple way is to
eliminate the leaf springs all together. Essentially you would mean
adding a link from the spring fixed eye mount to the axle on each side
and a panhard rod. You could also go a 4 link setup but this will cost a
lot more for not much gain or use a V link setup for extended travel
mods.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 17:39:56 -0700
From: Rob Boyle
Subject: My Alcans
The new springs are on and needless to say I am quite happy with them.
I'm maxing out my 10" es3000's and haven't done any tests without the
shocks yet. My driveshaft mod seems to be working fine. I welded (had
welded) 1.5 more inches of slip yoke to the existing slipyoke. I also
removed the shield that covers the splined shaft. I have a full 6" of
slipyoke travel and seem to be using about 4.5" of it. I checked
compression by running some small jumps just fast enough to compress to
the bumpstops on landing. ( wer'e talking "no-air jumps"). full droop
was both tires off the ground together.The 33's still rub a little under
articulation, but not as bad. The ride is very smooth, much nicer then
those 4wph 4" springs. I am running a dick cepek drop draglink, adjusted
all the way in. my steering wheel is pointing at about 10 o'clock. I can
shorten the drag link more by cutting a little off but will probably
leave it the way it is. my brake lines are fine with the current shocks
limiting droop, they are mounted on the side of the frame now. They will
be replaced by some Earls hoses soon.
Rob Boyle 85 4runner 225,000 miles Kayline soft top
Bronco 33-12.5's Downey super clutch
4.88 gears with EZ lockers F&R
New 5" alcans for the front
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:30:02 EDT
From: DRM033
Subject: Wrangler springs in the front of a Toy???
a while back someone mentioned Wrangler springs under their truck. Someone
else inquired about this, but got no answer to the list. I would also like to
know more about this, so whoever used Jeep Wrangler spring parts in the front
of their Toy PLEASE send more info to me & the list!
David Moore DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:15:57 -0700
From: "C & S Learning"
Subject: Re: Wrangler front springs
I used the rear springs from a YJ, 5 leafs. Because I have the Chevy 4.3lt
I added an additional full length leaf from my old pack to the YJ pack.
Just to help with the extra weight. I think I actually lost about 1.5- 2"
of lift. Quite a bit but I can still run 33's without out a problem. The
springs sit pretty much flat with my setup. I will be looking to modify
that in the near future. Aparently if you have the 4cyl motor you shouldn't
have any weight problem and you should gain about 2" of lift.
As for Ubolts, I'm not sure exactly what I used, I have tones kicking
around. I beleive the stock ones will work. The YJ leafs are only max.
1/8" wider than the stock Toy, if that. I use the stock YJ spring pins, so
far so good.
>I have an '85 shortbed with stock springs and 2" shackle lift. I am
>thinking about building my own front springs on a budget, and I believe I
>can find some stock wrangler springs for cheap. I ultimately want 2" of
>lift and a nice smooth street ride. I am open to suggestions.
>
The YJ's would be the way to go. And if you know anyone at a 4wheel drive
shop they'll probably just give them to ya. I know the guys I deal with just
toss the old ones in the scrap bin.
Colin
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:32:02 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Leaf Spring Centre Bolt
"james stevenson" wrote:
>Has anyone had problems snapping centre bolts? I keep braking them on
>the rear and am thinking of swapping in larger diameter grade 8 bolts. I
>always sheer the head off the bolt rather than snap the bolt. The only
>thing I can think of is that when the spring compresses the Ubolts
>slacken enough to allow a slight movement in the axle. I think they go
>when the spring is compressed and I put the boot in. The V8,Marlin gears
>and Locker will certainly want to make the diff move. I know making the
>bolts larger is not solving the problem of why the centre bolt has
>stress on it in the first place causing them to snap. I'm thinking of
>adding in a curved plate either side of the spring pack held in place
>with the centre bolt that matches the spring arch (vehicle at rest).
>This will make the ubolts stay at the same tension through the travel
>but I'm not sure that's causing the problem. Anyone have a better
>solution or idea on why they are breaking?
I'll bet the breaking is caused by loose u-bolts. If the u-bolts are doing
their job there should be little shear force on the center bolt. With new
u-bolts properly torqued, you should have adequate clamping force
to prevent the axle and springs from moving with respect to each other.
Are your perches flat? I know you are running LC axles, but on the
truck front live axle the perches are made slightly weak. Hard wheeling
will start to bend the perches. This will cause the u-bolts to loosen and
if you tighten the u-bolts after this bending has occured it will start to
bend the springs backwards when at rest.
Boxing the perches helps cure this and I believe ARB even recommends
this procedure in the OME lift instructions.
I'd check these things. Bigger bolts may be a solution but probably won't
cure your root problem.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:25:56 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Re: Leaf Spring Centre Bolt
James Stevenson wrote:
Has anyone had problems snapping centre bolts? I keep braking them on
the rear and am thinking of swapping in larger diameter grade 8 bolts. I
always sheer the head off the bolt rather than snap the bolt. The only
thing I can think of is that when the spring compresses the Ubolts
slacken enough to allow a slight movement in the axle.
James, you might check on how well the Centre Bolt head fits the hole on
the axle.
I was talking with Marlin and he found this to be a problem. The hole
was to big for the centre bolt head.
He took a bolt (whatever size needed) and machined off the hex part to
fit the hole very snug (he might have even enlarged the hole some.
Just something to look at or try.
Toyota Tony
http://www.digitalpla.net/~offroader
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:29:24 -0400
From: Charles Brooks
Subject: Leaf spring alternatives
I found a spring I think I want to try on my 83. Thought
I'd post the specs for it as well as the specs for the
Rancho 3" lift Toyota springs. The Toyota springs are
P/N 305. The application for the 44147 is 2.5" lift YJ
rear springs.
P/N rate eye2eye arch width thickness
305 300 45.12 4.05 2.36 .98"
44147 200 45.6 6.65 2.5 1.05"
The Jeep spring has no offset for the center bolt (Just
like the toyota spring!) It also has 4 leaves vice 3
and a lot lower spring rate.
I'm gonna give it a try as soon as I can convince my wife!
Charles Brooks
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 May 98 16:43:00 -0500
From: Rosenberger Bud
Subject: Solid Axle spring/driveshaft questions
Hi guys,
I mounted up one of those 16/35 -15 Swamper Boggers on a 10" wheel and
tried it on my 85 SR5 longbed. WOW!!! Now I need some help to decide
which springs to get and what other issues I'll have.
I planned on getting 5" Skyjacker Softrides for the front and doing the
Mazda swap on the rear. I would like to use a 2" bodylift and pull one
of the leaves out in the future. I also want to relocate the axle at
least 1" forward. Is that the max without needing crossover steering?
Will I need to lengthen the front drive shaft? Rob Boyle ( thanks for
the help Rob!) had the splined section welded for an additional 1.5".
What else have you done? Can you machine a spacer to extend the mount
at the transfer case? I'm a better machinist than a welder so if that
would work, I'd prefer it and I'd have a stock shaft. I don't do any
rockcrawling so articulation isn't the #1 priority for me. Are the Alcan
springs that much better for the $?? I would appreciate any thoughts you
all have.
Thanks,
Bud
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:45:03 -0700
From: "Brandon Miller"
Subject: Re: Solid Axle spring/driveshaft questions
If you are not looking fro extreme articulation why would you move the axle
forward? I suggest fender trimming. I have 35's and they don't rub even
under extreme flex, with trimmed fenders and the axle in the stock location.
I have a 2" body lift, 3" springs and shackles. So, do you feel like an
airplane going down the road with those tires ;)
Is there a difference in spline length betweent the IFS and the non-IFS
driveshafts? MY fiend is having problems getting a driveshaft with enough
spline it either bottoms out or falls out..
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/\/\
Brandon Miller ICQ# 8392888
Sacramento CA
email - miller@csus.edu
home page - http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/\/\
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:04:34 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Re: Leaf spring alternatives
Charles Brook wrote:
Yeah, I noticed the width difference. I'd like to run those extra
long springs but like you said you'd have to move both spring mounts
to do it. I don't have access to the welder and torches I had last
summer (Not to mention I don't want to do anything permanent till
I'm sure it's what I want!) So I need a solution with relatively
little fabrication. How much articulation do you think would be
possible with the YJ lifted springs? The spring rate is awfully close
to the rate for the Alcan springs...
A relatively little fabrication would be to get a front mount welded on
leaving the stock one. See Jay's Mazda spring conversion. Then do the
same thing with the rear shackle. Buy a shackle mount and weld it on
just behind the stock one, there should be enough room. That might give
you with length you need.
Toyota Tony
http://www.digitalpla.net/~offroader
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:00:51 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Leaf spring alternatives
Jack Alford Wrote
>Another thing is that the XJ springs are 56" long eye-to-eye
> Compared to the Toy springs at 47" and Mazda springs at 52".
> Needless to say that both of the spring mounts will need to be
> moved...
Only if you stay semi-elliptic. Go full elliptic and you can use the
stock mounts with springs up to 60 inch
Charles Brooks Wrote
>I don't have access to the welder and torches I had last summer
> (Not to mention I don't want to do anything permanent till I'm sure
it's
> what I want!) So I need a solution with relatively little fabrication.
> How much articulation do you think would be possible with the YJ
> lifted springs?
The Long spring semi elliptic (like the Mazda swap) gives about 35%
more travel, change to full elliptic you get 67% over stock or more
amazing 33% more than the Mazda swap over stock. To do full elliptic you
need to get a set of lift shackles and a bar with helm joints on it. The
whole setup can be returned to stook as it is a Bolton
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:29:56 EDT
From: DRM033
Subject: Re: Leaf spring alternatives
In a message dated 98-05-19 23:57:25 EDT, you write:
>
> hate to sound stupid but I am sure that I am not the only one that doesn't
> get what you mean with the elliptical.
SNIP
> Explain please??
By full eliptical he means a shackle at both ends.
I would really look into something like this. You may want to use the mazda
spring swap, but don't move the hangers. simply build a V link (Jack A. has a
great description on his page from James) & use the mazda springs with a a
shackle in the front & back. This requires a custom shackle for the previous
solid mount spring eye, but you will be able to go back to stock springs at
any time.
The other way he mentioned was to use rods & extra spring hangers. I too
would like to hear more about this.
James, you really gotta start metering this stuff out to us slower - it is
hard to keep up! ;)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:33:36 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Leaf spring alternatives
>A full elliptical will have a 2 springs one over top of the other, turn
this
> symbol sideways (). like the old fashion horse buggies.
I will try to make this simple. Elliptic, in terms of leaf springs is
the part of the circle the moving spring parts occupy.
¼ is half a normal spring pack. One end is bolted to the axle and the
other to the frame
½ is the normal leaf spring setup
¾ is a buggy spring setup or a double jointed shackle on one end
Full is the horse buggy setup but is also the double shackle setup.
In the horse buggy setup you have 2 springs. The mount points are at the
Centre bolts on both springs. When compressed both springs contact each
other. This is the same action as with two shackles but the upper spring
is not made from spring steel. In the same way as a double jointed or
"Missing Link" shackle is ¾.
Generally we refer to Semi or Full elliptic. Full being a setup with no
fixed spring eye and semi a setup with one fixed spring eye.
Hope that clears it up
Charles Brooks Wrote
>I've been paying close attention to your descriptions of suspension
> types. Do you have any detailed pics?
Pics will soon be on the web as will detailed install for the longer
springs and 2 shackles.
>On the double shackle setup, Do the shackle's control lateral
> movement adequately? or is an additional link needed (By additional,
> I mean in addition to the link that keeps the shackles from
> collapsing)
You have a link to stop the shackles collapsing. On TonkaTuf2 I use the
Vlink to do it. But on the system in question it is a link from the
stock fixed eye mount to the bumpstop plate. A second shackle mount is
added in front of the stock one to which the second shackle mounts.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:44:03 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Re: Leaf spring alternatives
"Brandon Miller" wrote:
>>>Jack Alford Wrote
>>>Another thing is that the XJ springs are 56" long eye-to-eye
>>> Compared to the Toy springs at 47" and Mazda springs at 52".
>>> Needless to say that both of the spring mounts will need to be
>>> moved...
>
>
>Why?
Well ... You don't have to ... but if you really want to get the
added benefit of longer springs then you'll move the forward spring
mount. If you don't want the added benefit of having a longer piece
of spring between the axle and fixed end of the spring, which is
a much improved ride and more articulation don't do it ... I'm sure by
putting on a set of springs that are 5" longer you can have the shackle
laying back at quite an angle if you don't move the forward mount.
- jack
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:00:18 -0600
From: Rob Boyle
Subject: Re: Leaf spring alternatives
Brandon Miller wrote:
>
>
> hate to sound stupid but I am sure that I am not the only one that doesn't
> get what you mean with the elliptical.
- -- I think maybe even James has his terms mixed up. A full elliptical
will have a 2 springs one over top of the other, turn this symbol
sideways (). like the old fasion horse buggys. a 3/4 elliptical will
have the main bottom spring and half of the top spring, the common buggy
spring set up we here about. a 1/2 elliptacal is one leave
spring..stock.
and 1/4 eleptical is a half a spring pack, like the salmon buggy.
At least that is what I thought Until James came along :)
Correct me if I'm wrong, But adding another shackle won't make it full
elliptical.
Rob Boyle 85 4runner 225,000 miles Kayline soft top
Bronco 33-12.5's Downey super clutch
4.88 gears with EZ lockers F&R
New 5" alcans for the front
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:45:59 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Re: Leaf spring alternatives
Charles Brooks wrote:
>I think putting a longer spring on the front would be a little
>more difficult. Ha anyone done this?
My current springs are 1.5" longer than stock and mounted to
dropped front spring hangers.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:08:56 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Solid Axle spring/driveshaft questions
Rosenberger Bud wrote:
>I mounted up one of those 16/35 -15 Swamper Boggers on a 10" wheel and
>tried it on my 85 SR5 longbed. WOW!!! Now I need some help to decide
>which springs to get and what other issues I'll have.
>
>I planned on getting 5" Skyjacker Softrides for the front and doing the
>Mazda swap on the rear. I would like to use a 2" bodylift and pull one
>of the leaves out in the future. I also want to relocate the axle at
>least 1" forward. Is that the max without needing crossover steering?
Yes, and you need to be careful as this actually shortens the draglink
by an inch and puts greater angle between it and then steering arm
under droop and we all know what happens when you stress it under
that condition. You may want to consider getting a spare steering arm.
With my axle forward 1 inch I was still rubbing my 33s badly on the
back of the fenderwell (even with it hammered flat). My axle is now
about 2.5 inches forward from stock and I no longer have any problems.
>Will I need to lengthen the front drive shaft? Rob Boyle ( thanks for
the help Rob!) had the splined section welded for an additional 1.5".
Yes and if you lift it and increase travel you are most likely going to
need a front drivashaft with longer splines.
>What else have you done? Can you machine a spacer to extend the mount
>at the transfer case? I'm a better machinist than a welder so if that
>would work, I'd prefer it and I'd have a stock shaft.
Yes, I have seen this done.
>I don't do any rockcrawling so articulation isn't the #1 priority for me.
Then scratch some of what I said. I you are willing to limit travel some
the steering arm will probably be ok and the driveshaft won't be as much
a concern.
"Brandon Miller" wrote:
>If you are not looking fro extreme articulation why would you move the axle
>forward? I suggest fender trimming. I have 35's and they don't rub even
>under extreme flex, with trimmed fenders and the axle in the stock location.
>I have a 2" body lift, 3" springs and shackles. So, do you feel like an
>airplane going down the road with those tires ;)
That's a good point Brandon. Just remember though that your early body
style accepts 35s a little better than our squarish '85 fenders.
>Is there a difference in spline length betweent the IFS and the non-IFS
>driveshafts? MY fiend is having problems getting a driveshaft with enough
>spline it either bottoms out or falls out..
I believe so. May have to look into getting a longer spline Spicer setup.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 03:45:45 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Leaf spring alternatives
>You may want to use the Mazda spring swap, but don't move >the hangers.
simply build a V link (Jack A. has a & use the Mazda
> springs with a shackle in the front & back.
I have a couple of pics of the setups without Vlink as Bolton's.
>This requires a custom shackle for the previous solid mount spring
> eye, but you will be able to go back to stock springs at any time.
The shackle is a lift shackle cut down to 3 inch and a tube welded in
one end. This allows the stock hanger to accept it.
>The other way he mentioned was to use rods & extra spring hangers.
> I too would like to hear more about this.
Almost ready just doing the rear shock setup. Will get published very
soon. It mimics the TonkaTuf2 setup but uses a bolton trackbar and off
the shelf springs. Lift is 3 or 5 inch. The front setup has the long
travel shock contained in the whee well. The back will be the same. I
have modelled this on the simulator and is not far behind TT2 in travel
and articulation.
>James, you really gotta start metering this stuff out to us slower - it
is
> hard to keep up! ;)
Sorry
Jon Brandt Wrote
> it sounds like ye' all are try'n to mimic the 2nd gen. 4Runner coil
> suspension. Maybe you could use an axle assembly from a newer
> 4Runner and weld in some plates to hold coil springs and heim joint
>the links.
The coil setup wont give the articulation or travel anywhere near the
full elliptic setup (Leaf spring shackles on each end)
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:42:11 -0700
From: "Brandon Miller"
Subject: Re: Leaf spring alternatives
I meant why move em both, I was planning on moving the front one...
That shackle laying back is what will give droop though..
Brandon Miller
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:46:11 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Longer Front Springs.
In doing the doco for the full elliptic front conversion I came upon a
simpler option for the front using the RS44044 spring. If installed with
the longer half to the rear and a double shackle on the frame it will
fit perfectly. This spring gives as much travel/articulation to the
front as the Mazda swap gives to the rear. The centrebolt offset matches
perfectly the stock axle location so no additional clearance problems
occur. With the spring in standard form It will give about 6 inch lift
and matches the stock spring rate perfectly. As it has 6 leaves one or
more can be removed to give 1-6 inch lift depending on needs. If anyone
wants to see what the double shackle looks like to install the spring
have a look at my page
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/TonkaTuf/ under double
shackles. I will have the instructions with the dimention for building
the double shackle needed on the page in the necxt few days.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 09:43:36 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Rear leaf springs
>Is a few more inches of spring (55") in front of the axle a good idea?
> If your custom made Alcans had more arch behind the axle then in
> front
Once you start going beyond 52 the angles start to become a real
problem. Really long shackles are not the answer as is lowering the
mount. More arch in the back is Ok at rest but as the spring flattens
you have the same angle problem. I have gone up to 60 inch long and the
only real solution is to convert the driveshaft to CV's
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 09:44:45 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Re: IRS was: Leaf spring alt.
>Three CV's? How?
The centre is supported inside the Frame. The frame is actually a square
truss the houses the Tcase (lower) shafts and centres. The whole car is
built around that, also nothing is exposed to damage. The suspension
arms are 4 unequal length arms attached to the top and bottom of the
truss. The side of the truss have a 11degree rake inwards to allow
proper angle on the arms, also each arm is adjustable in length so
caster, camber, toe can be adjusted on each wheel. The first CV line up
with the pivot point on the arms at the truss and connects to a shaft
runs to the outer pivot on the arms, where the second CV is . This is
the point where the hubs are usually mounted. Instead I have a small box
frame which extends out to the hub. Inside this frame I have a bearing
support. This bit looks like the centre bearing in the 2 piece
tailshaft. At the hub itself I have another CV which handles the
steering allowing me to get the angles a full 30 degrees.
>I would think that three or four CV's per wheel could potentially net
>effective angles approaching 45-50 degrees, if you can locate them
> properly, etc.
Yes and no. You can potentially go full circle but with very little
strength. Also you have to work out a way of supporting the shafts and
moving that support when the angles change. By separating the angles
steering from the suspension angles I gained enough travel to not bother
any more.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 07:36:24 -0600
From: Rob Boyle
Subject: Re: Diff angle's
Michael Woodruff wrote:
>
> I'm still deciding whose lift I'll use (input on that would be
>appreciated also) for my 85 4runner. I've pretty much decided on 3 1/2 to
>4" springs, but then there's the issue of shackles. Say I go with the
>standard 1 1/2 or 2" extended shackles........that should be a total lift of
>5 to 6", right? Right. So my concern is the drive angle, is this too much?
>I've seen the shims that correct a couple of degree's, but this sounds kinda
>like blocks for a rear lift (not the best idea). Also can the slip yokes
>slip that much? Should I use the lift and shackles that are stock length?
>Gracias
On springs, I had 4WPW/ Pro-comp 4" front springs that were stiff, and sagged
unevenly. But they are cheap. I have Alcans now and I like them alot. A longer
shackle gives about half of its added length in lift, a 2" shackle gives 1"
lift. Longer shakles are a good thing to use with long travel springs, just
don't go too long. My Alcans bottom out the stock shackles on compression.
I think 2" longer on the front and 2-3" on the back is still ok for diff
angles. I have addaleaves and 3" longer shackles on my stock rear now and
have not had a problem angles. You'll have to do some custom springs/shocks
to exceed your slip yoke capacitys I think, especially on the back.
hope this helps
Rob Boyle 85 4runner 225,000 miles Kayline soft top
Bronco 33-12.5's Downey super clutch
4.88 gears with EZ lockers F&R
5" alcans for the front
Rear springs in development
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Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 12:47:25 -0600
From: "David Eggleston"