Springs
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: '83 Toyota 4x Suspension Questions
From: bwiencek@kcnet.com
Date: 25 Jun 1996 17:22:12 GMT
> reitter@ix.netcom.com (John Reitter) writes:
> Help me stop my teeth from CHATTERING!!!???
>
> I current have a 1983 Toyota 4x4 pickup with a Rancho 3" suspension,
> BFG 33x12.5 tires on 12x10 steel rims. Needless to say (for anyone
> who has or had an older Toyota pickup), the ride is VERY stiff. The
> shocks, BTW, are Rancho 5132's.
>
> I am looking to change the truck somehow to get a better ride on-road
> (95% of all of my driving). I will consider changing the rims
> (aluminum?) or the shocks if any of these will improve the ride.
> However, I want to keep the tire size and the 3" lift that I
> currently have.
>
> Suggestions anyone?
Yep....
First changing to alum rims will not help the ride one bit. Change to a
softer shock, like the 9000's with it set on one or two, and I know you
wanted to keep the rancho springs, but they are really stiff - this is
where most of the problem lies! I ended up scrapping mine and going to
a superlift / softride suspension (4 new springs - dont go add-a-leaves!!
- you'll be back saking the same ??'s in a cuple of weeks!) I am
extremely happy with the ride now, and the wife also mentioned that it
is 100% better riding than before. If you sell the rancho springs to an
unsuspecting customer you can re-coup some of the cost too..
- Brian
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: '83 Toyota 4x Suspension Questions
From: ryna10@email.sps.mot.com (Jay Kopycinski)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 00:25:26 GMT
Toss the RS500s and buy the light valved (multi-shock application)
RS9000s for your Toy. It will make quite a difference.
Which lift are you running?
Rancho? stiff and no travel
Downey? soft but sags quickly
NWOR? stiff and poor leaf design
or.....???
-----------------------------------------------
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
Arizona Lo-Rangers ASA4WDC UFWDA
Fun Country Fourwheelers SWFWDA TLCA
-----------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: '85 Toyota--Can I make it ride softer?
From: ryna10@email.sps.mot.com (Jay Kopycinski)
Date: 30 Jul 1996 15:42:53 GMT
In article <4tj3td$2a6@niner.apsc.com>, mbaltzly@apsc.com (Michael Baltzly)
wrote:
> I have a 1985 Toyota 4x4 longbed truck that I bought new and have
> driven for 189,000 miles. I am still completely satisfied with
> everything about the truck, but I am getting a lot of complaints from
> my girlfriend about the harsh ride. Is there any way that I can make
> this truck ride BETTER than new? Here is some information that may be
> pertinant to the ride quality:
>
> * Original springs, slightly sagged in front
> * Rancho RS5000 shocks and stabilizer
> * Original rubber bushings in decent shape
> * Steel-frame shell (250lbs?)
> * Warn M5000 in brushguard mount (100lbs?)
> * 7" aluminum wheels
> * 31/10.50 Goodyear Wrangler RT/S tires, 28psi
>
> None of my changes were intended to change the ride quality, and none
> have affected it. I am thinking of trying the "soft ride" springs
> that NorthWest Offroad sells but I want to see if anyone has a better
> idea.
>
I have some of the 3.5" NWOR springs. They are the typical mass-produced,
thick-leaf, too harsh springs. They are very stiff. The Downey springs are
much better but tend to sag after about two years.
The biggest change in your case would come from tossing the RS5000s and
installing something with lighter dampening. The RS5000s are way over
damped for the light Toyota unless you're into jumping the truck.
-----------------------------------------------
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
Arizona Lo-Rangers ASA4WDC UFWDA
Fun Country Fourwheelers SWFWDA TLCA
-----------------------------------------------
========
Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
Subject: Re: '85 Toyota--Can I make it ride softer?
From: brucer@dublin.hw.stratus.com (Bruce Rioux)
Date: 30 Jul 1996 18:06:56 GMT
There's hope for a "better than new" ride, but I don't think you'll ever
make it comparable to an 89-94 truck.
I put NWOR's 2" softride suspension system with Doetch-Tech shocks on
my '84 4Runner, and it definitely improved the ride over the stock sagging
springs and RS-5000's that it had. But the ride was still far from
a friends stock '86 4Runner with the IFS.
Definitely get rid of the RS-5000's, as they seem to be valved too stiff
for the road. The Doetch-Tech's have softer valving, so they ride better
on the road, but you'll prob'ly bottom out faster off-road. You might
wanna look at the RS-9000's, 'cause you can change the valving to match
your needs.
If you plan to do the spring installation yourself, email me for a couple
helpful hints, 'cause a couple of the bolts are a bitch to remove.
FYI: I just recently upgraded my ride quality by replacing my '84 with
a '94 V6 SR5 4Runner! What a difference!
Good luck,
-BruceR
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Bruce Rioux Internet: brucer@hw.stratus.com
Stratus Computer, Inc. Phone: (508)460-2549
Marlboro, MA 01752
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:36:36 -0700
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: 4Runner Suspension Lift
To: TLCAL@TLCA.ORG
Scott says :
>Any knowledge about the
>different kits would be appreciated.
>
>About the kits I do have a couple of questions:
>
>- -Ease and time to install?
>- -I've gotten the feeling that lifting with blocks for the rear isn't the
>best way to go. Is this correct? What are my options?
>- -Will re-gearing be necessary, or is that an option for more power?
>
>I appreciate you bearing with me,
I say :
This is exactly what these lists are for. Informing those who are, as yet,
un-informed.
You didn't say what year vehicle you have. Axles come in 3 flavors, solid,
ifs, coil. Solids are easy and cheap, ifs is expensive and hard, don't know
about coils (on rear axle on 1990's and up) .
Solid axle : replacement springs are the best way to go. Downey is cheap
but you get what you pay for (they sag quickly). I have
ProComps on my front axle
blocks are cheapest and easiest, never sag, but are hard on
the springs. NEVER PUT BLOCKS ON FRONT AXLES. I have blocks
in my rear axle and just did all of the Rubicon with no
problems.
Add-a-leafs are cheap and easy, but are hard on the springs
and result in a hard ride. If you do this, go with the 'long'
leaves. Ride is better and easy on the old spring pack.
ifs Lots of companies make lifts. Stay away from the
10-inch-travel kit from Downey, it breaks easily.
You can also just add a new torsion bar to get
about 1.5" of lift, but you need 3" for 33" tires.
Truck will be gutless with 33" tires, without re-gearing the differentials.
Go with at least 4.88's. Will need to replace all shocks, regardless of
method of lift.
Good luck.
################################################################
Rick Murray 84 Toyota 4Runner SR5
CA4WDC stock 22R motor ; 3" ProComp Lift
Rancho Cordova, Ca. 8" steel rims; 33" BFG M/Ts
www.gvn.net/~rmurray/ 4.88 gears; Marlin TCase ; TRD posi
################################################################
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
Keith wrote:
>
> I need some opinions on lift kits. (OME is WAY out of my price range)
> I am trying to get 2"-3" of lift and correct the sag('77 FJ-40)
> I can re-arch the factory springs or buy an aftermarket lift(Rugged
> Trail,Rancho,Skyjacker,etc.)for about the same price.What are the pro's and
> con's
> Thanks again,
> Keith
Keith,
I have nothing but great words to say about the Skyjacker Softride lift kits.
I'm running their 4" lift kit and it is extremely comfortable in my '76. I
injured my back during my military days and needed something that would not
beat me to death.
I drove my Cruiser to Moab and back this past May and didn't require
hospitalization.
It works for me.
- --
Park Owens '76 FJ-40 '88 FJ-62 TLCA 2569
powens@silver.sdsmt.edu Dakota Territory Cruisers
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 00:15:44 -0400
From: Ruth Capen
Subject: lift kits
To: NightLight (The Administrator)
Rugged Trail is now Warn Black Diamond. Unless they are totally
re-engineered don't waste your money on them. I have the Rugged Trail
springs. They came as *3* leaf packs and had absolutely no articulation.
An IFS truck would have a better RTI than I did with those springs. With
only 2 leaves, however....
David Lawrence
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 15:09:09 -0500
From: Michael Greenway
Subject: NWOR Springs
To: tlcal@tlca.org
Ross Raymond Fahlen wrote:
>I have a few questions about Toy Truck Springs. Does anyone have
>NWOR 3.5 inch springs on their 79-84 truck? If so have found them to
>be as stiff as I have? I have them with Rancho 9000's set on one and
>they are way too stiff for my taste.
Yes, I have had the same experience with NWOR 3.5" lift springs. It was
almost unbearable. I finally broke one of the front springs (cracked at the
center bolt). I replaced them with 5" Skyjacker Softrides. They cost twice
as much and I think they are worth it. Nice ride and they articulate well.
The NWOR springs were so stiff that I would get a rear wheel to lift 2 or
3 feet off the ground. It made for some good pictures and the pucker
feeling all the time. Also NWOR said that they would not warrent the
spring because they said it was because the u-bolts were loose. NOT!
Later...
Michael Greenway TLCA #3000
76 FJ40, 81 Mini, 86 4-Runner (1st two with Marlins)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:03:15 -0600
From: "Jay Kopycinski-RYNA10"
Subject: NWOR springs?
To: "TLCAL@tlca.org%azbcsm1"
Subject: Time: 10:16 AM
OFFICE MEMO NWOR springs? Date: 11/4/96
amigo@azstarnet.com (Scott Rowin) wrote:
> Looking at a suspension upgrade (still) for a '88 4-Runner. I
>was looking at NWOR's system 2, which includes the nice torsion bar
>upgrade to 26mm (I'm running 31" tires).
Depends if you want more lift, a stiffer ride up front, etc. as far
as whether to change the front torsions or not.
>I'm mainly concerned with how the
>rear springs with 2" lift ride & wear. A lot of comments that theres many
>brands sagging out in 2 years or so, I'm wondering if NWOR's is on that list
>for sagging? Also how do they ride -- ROUGH was heck, or smooth and
controlled?
I currently run the 3.5" NWOR springs up front and they are really
stiff for the rock-crawling I do. I think they might work well in
mud, but not in a situation where you want good articulation.
I run Downey 3" springs on the rear and have found that they sag out after
about two years. They do offer a pretty decent ride as they are stock
spring rate.
>I may just opt for OMEs, but want to hear comments about
>NWOR's suspension stuff.
No experience with the OME stuff. When I ordered my NWOR springs
they sent me a defective one and I had to pay both forward and return
shipping to get it replaced. Their customer service is less than great.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 20:28:54 -0800
From: Ross Raymond Fahlen (by way of Gary Bjork
Subject: TLCAL Digest V1 #103
To: tlcal@tlca.org
Dear Scott,
I have NWOR springson my truck and do not like them at all. they are too
stiff and they do not articulate very well. I have ridden in another
vehicle with OME and they are much better than any other that I have
ridden on in that vehicle. I have spoken to one of the representatives
from OME in Seattle and he told me the benefits of these springs. Good
Luck, Ross
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:26:31 -0600
From: "Jay Kopycinski-RYNA10"
Subject: Toy Truck Springs
To: "TLCAL@tlca.org%azbcsm1"
Subject: Time: 9:48 AM
OFFICE MEMO Toy Truck Springs Date: 11/4/96
Ross Raymond Fahlen wrote:
>I have a few questions about Toy Truck Springs. Does anyone have NWOR
>3.5 inch springs on their 79-84 truck? If so have found them to be a
>stiff as I have? I have them with Rancho 9000's set on one and they are
way too stiff for my taste.
I have them up front with soft-valved 9000s and they are way too stiff.
I have a few ideas for a new setup and would like to get some feedback if
possible. #1 I want to maybe try a new spring brand like OME or National
or Alcan. I don't really care that much about price I just want
something that will work.
I was going to go with National, but figured after spending $400+
on front springs I probably still wouldn't be satisfied. I'm currently
working on some ideas for some hybrid spring packs of my own making.
(BTW......my main type wheeling is rock-crawling)
>My next idea is to take a stock flat spring
>and build sort of a box that gets welded to the frame that the spring
>mounts on (like a dropped spring hanger). Even if I put another cross
>member between the hangers would it twist the frame too much at high
>speeds on the freeway?
I've seen this done. It was 2" high and seemed to work well. Combined
with a 2" longer shackle, you get a 2" lift and get to retain a flatter
spring for softness and articulation. What you don't get with this
setup is an increase in front clearance and approach angle.
>I also want to cut out the fender wells and weld on an extended shock mount
>then mount longer shocks. Any feedback that anyone has would be helpful
I've done this so I now can run 14" travel front shocks.
It is the way to go if you don't mind cutting a small
hole in the fenderwell.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 12:28:44 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: suggestion: springs or shackles?
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
Jonathan Albrecht wrote:
>Kind of in a tough situation -- looking to raise the rear on my '88
>4 Runner. My next option is just to reshackle, raise the rear that
>2" or so to ride better (and level).
(snip)
>>
>> The biggest shackles you can buy only lift about 1.25". I used Downey's
>> longest shackles, and they only gave me 1" lift. (snip)
First of all they do make longer shackles. I don't remember the brand.
If you like I'll find out for you. I bought them from 4 Wheel Parts
Wholesalers in San Jose. I have them on my 4Runner right now. I used
a shackle 3" longer than stock, and ended up with a 2 1/2" lift. Just
a bit higher than I wanted, but it looks good.
I recently (2 weeks ago) raised the back of my '88 4Runner with a
shackle lift. I am VERY happy with it. It only cost me $23, the
price for the shackles. And they were a very high quality shackle.
I invested another $25 or so, and changed all the bushings in the
rear springs to poly. I would also recommend doing this to your
'Runner, it significantly reduces body roll.
I don't have time to write more at this moment, but if you'd like
more info on this e-mail me direct. Also, if you decide to change
over to the poly bushings, definately e-mail me, I'll give you some
time saving tips and hopefully you won't have the trial 'n error
hassel I went through.
- --
Scott A. Wilson __o __o __o __o
Santa Clara, CA _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_
swilson@pacbell.net (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:33:39 -0500
From: Toy4x4s@aol.com
Subject: suggestion: springs or shackles?
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
In a message dated 96-11-24 06:45:31 EST, you write:
<< I
eventually went to a Rancho add-a-leaf, and I'm glad I did. Not to hard
to install, the ride seemed fine to me, and my truck had about an extra
inch or so of lift in the rear (I like the look of a slightly raked
truck.) Plus, I have an increased load capacity of about 500lbs. >>
Jonathan/Scott
I have an 88 4Runner V-6 I bought new, with the same saggy butt dilema. In
about 1 year I couldn't stand it so I went the Rancho add-a-leaf route. It
was cool! As Jonathan stated all was well, it had a slight rake, and extra
hauling capacity. I ended up with about 2 or so inches of extra lift (above
"level" height). It was neato... We always took my Runner on vacations and
camping a few times. During the vacations the weight of the 2 kids and all
our stuff for 2 weeks (the rear cargo area was filled level witht the rear
seats) it never sagged. BUT!!! Now the bad part... About 3 years ago I
noticed that I had a broken spring! So immediatly I took it off, brought it
to Denver Spring and wanted them to fix it. Here was the education I got.....
Yeah, for $100 they could fix the broken spring and re-install my stubby
add-a-leaf. But, I'd be back again in the future to have it fixed again and
again... Here's the problem. You have a short add a leaf that is thicker than
all other leafs. So it's not going to bend and flex persay... so when the
spring pack needs to flex, the stubby leaf won't let the pack bend or flex
beyond where the end of the add a leaf starts, so you break the leaf jujst
above the add a leaf at the forward end of the add a leaf. That all sounds
confusing, but i guess if you think about it and visualize it it makes sense.
Well I thought this guy was full of stuffing and all he wanted to do was get
the business for removing both stubby add a leafs and replacing them with a
custom add a leaf that gave me the 2 inches above stock. They wanted $200. I
said just fix the one I brought you and put my leaf back in... Well.....
about a year later my other side broke! So I began to think about what this
guy had told me a bit more in depth... yes, it made sense. Since the other
side had broken in exactly the same spot. So what did I do? I asked my club
members for suggestions. One said that some leaf from some Chevy truck would
fit right in, it's a full sized leaf, and it would give me my lift. The other
option was to check out this club acquaintence that does spring work, and
have him basically do what the first spring guy had explained. So that's what
I did... I had the Rancho's removed, and replaced with a full sized custom
add a leaf that still gave me my lift, soft ride, and hauling capacity. I
didn't go to Denver Spring because they were way more expensive than the
other guy... I ended up paying like $70 to have the 2 leafs made, and have my
stock broken leaf replaced. Yes I'm a happy camper now... The Rancho add a
leafs are the same one that you get with a Rancho 3 in lift kit for a pick up
truck. Since there is virtually no weight continually in a p/up bed these
work fine for p/ups to some extent. We had put these leafs in our 85 p/up way
back in 85. they were just fine until this last summer when we had the full
load of vacation/camping gear in the truck and we did Rubicon. The load
compiled with the rough bumping and what not not only broke the one leaf
above the add a leaf, but it bent the remaining 2 or whatever other leafs!!!
Boy were we ever sagging! But we did the rest of the trail just fine (gotta
love those gears and ARB's!).
So speaking of NWOR's springs..... We bought a set while still on vacation
right from their showroom in Bellingham WA. They seem just fine for us...
They have the yellow urethane bushings, and NWOR reccomends that you use
their bump stops. If you don't, you void your warranty. The springs also have
these greasable hole things (there really is a name for them, but it escapes
me) so the springs don't squeak. That is really annoying when that happens.
Anyhow, we've had those springs on, front and rear since July. We honestly
haven't had a chance to go wheelin' with them, so i don't know what kind of
travel they have, but I don't notice them as being so stiff..... BTW, we also
use the stock shackles on both my Runner and his now totalled truck. we don't
feel as though we need a longer shackle. We should be transferring the
springs from the totalled truck, onto the new 85 4Runner soon... So I'll be
courious how they feel there...
SO BOTTOM LINE!!!
If you go with an add a leaf, make sure it's a full length leaf, NOT a stubby
one. Also consider the new spring pack with the lift you desire... instead of
using an add a leaf.
June Bennett
Rising Sun 4WD Club of Colorado
TLCA 2942
85 & 88 4Runners
72 & 76 FJ 40's
and that crunched up 85 pick up.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:23:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: suggestion: springs or shackles?
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>SO BOTTOM LINE!!! If you go with an add a leaf, make sure it's a full
>length leaf, NOT a stubby one. Also consider the new spring pack with the
>lift you desire... instead of using an add a leaf.
Actually I have heard of this happening, but didn't say anything about it
because I'd never had that problem... I know that downey sell's a
pre-runner add-a-leaf that is long with teflon pads at the ends. Anybody
have any experience with this particular setup? It's tempting because
it's also only about 50 bucks..
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:04:28 -0800
From: "eagle"
Subject: Leaf Spring Sag : (
To:
I have an 84' 4x4 pu, stock 22R, 31" tires; I have had it for 2-3 years
and It has always looked this way so I am not sure what is normal, but the
leafs on the front are actually slightly inverse of what I would think they
should be. The rear leafs look normal to me and the truck sits level, but
the fronts are now bent slightly the other way. What I do not understand is
why the truck sits level if this is abnormal, since the rears do not appear
to have this sag. It also appears to me that the front suspension has only
1 1/2" - 2" of compression travel before it hits rubber.......
Comments, suggestions?
/////(( DUKE ))\\\\\
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:34:34 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Leaf Spring Sag
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Duke wrote:
>I have an 84' 4x4 pu...the leafs on the front are actually slightly
>inverse of what I would think they should be. The rear leafs look
>normal to me and the truck sits level, but the fronts are now bent
>slightly the other way. What I do not understand is why the truck
>sits level if this is abnormal, since the rears do not appear to
>have this sag. It also appears to me that the front suspension has
>only 1 1/2" - 2" of compression travel before it hits rubber.
Completely normal for a set of 13-year old stock springs. They start out
fairly flat, then fatigue and arch backward. Remember, springs are a
disposable commodity. They go a few years and you replace 'em. You wouldn't
keep the same set of shocks on for 13 years would you? Springs do a lot
more. 2" of travel to the bump stop is normal.
I would replace 'em; if you're not in the market for a lift, there are
aftermarket stock-height replacements out there. But you're still in the 2"
travel zone.
Good luck,
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:00:00 +1100
From: "Jones, Andrew AL"
Subject: Leaf Spring Sag
To: "'Toy4x4 List'"
In reply:
What you describe is fairly common for stock springs 2-3 years old and
older. The front leafs are only slightly bowed downwards when new and
soon sag to become "actually slightly inverse of what I would think they
should be". The rear sags as well but as they start off with much more
bow so they don't reverse and its not noticeable in the same way as in
the front (and the truck stays level).
1 1/2 - 2" off the rubber however, does sound a little low, but they are
13 years old. If you are into off-roading on rocky/rough terrain then
you might what to think about new springs or getting yours reset. In my
opinion good suspension travel is very important and second only to
locked diffs in terms of 'go anywhere' four wheel drive ability in rough
terrain. Resetting springs is cheaper and actually gives a pretty good
result, you can also add a helper leaf to increase load capacity and
better resist further sag. However if money's not tight look at one of
the many aftermarket replacement sets with shocks to match.
Hope my opinion is useful,
Andrew.
jones.andrew.al@bhp.com.au
------------------------------
__________________
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:47:24 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: "opposing" shocks on 4Runner
To: " - (052)dwebster (a) sfu.ca"
Daniel Webster
Scott Wilson was right about the reasons for the shocks mouted in "opposition"
- -
The reason is correct - its to help reduce unwanted axle movement - in
particular the tendency for the axle to
1 - rotate up/down (pinion gear cimbs the ring)
2 - rotate left/right (one wheel pushes harder then the other)
This tendency is normally described as axle "tramp" in car parlance (aka
Mustangs and Camaros)
Leaf springs must perform several functions:
1 - provide ride height control
2 - provide up/down axle movement
3 - locate the axle in the up/down, left/right, front/back, and rotational
planes
The problem has been that it cant really do all totally effectively.
There are numerous solutiosn (with additional attendent problems)
Ladder bars (like Rancho's Trac Arms) can locate the axle in the front back
plane very well, but can
1 - limit ground clearance
2 - "fight" the spring for locational position
Panhard rods can locate the axle very well in the left right plane but:
1 - can induce bump steer as the rod swings
2 - may be difficult to do with a long travel suspension
"A" frame trailing rods (like the 4 links on the coil sprung 4Runners)
work well but need lots of space to work really effectively - look
at many race trucks - this is the setup they tend to use with the 1/4
eliptic spring setup.
All of the above are complicated and get expensive.
I believe it was GM that first discovered that simply placing the shocks
(or more appropiately called dampers) in opposite directions in the
front to back planes solved much of the axle tramp problems for basicly
no cost. (on leaf sprung live axles)
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jan 1997 12:44:49 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Questions on 3" lift
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:47 AM
OFFICE MEMO Questions on 3" lift Date: 1/21/97
mstano@okway.okstate.edu (Michael Stano) wrote:
>I need help (again). I have an '84 4x4 long bed. My front springs are
>beginning to droop. Rather than buy new stock-height springs, I am
>consideringa 3" lift. Questions: Since I don't do off-road, and I don't
>want to build a monster, should I stick with stock-height springs?
You have several options.........
All aftermarket lift springs have a spring rate equal to or greater than
stock. Downey springs are claimed to be stock spring rate. Other springs
will make your truck ride rougher on the street.
It sounds like (for your use) a lift serves you no purpose but looks.
So.....you could buy stock-height replacement springs, though I've never
priced these.
You could also ask around to find someone who pulled their stock springs
early in the life of the truck and has had them in storage since then.
Should be able to get those cheap. (Mine have long been used as rebar
in a backyard project.)
You might also check into having your stock springs cold arched to restore
the orginal ride height. The rearch won't last as long, but may work well
in your case.
>If I do a lift, should I get
>a kit with new front springs and rear add-a-leafs, which I know will
>stiffen the ride, or go for new springs front and rear?
Front and rear is better and smoother, but cost over double the price
of a front spring/add-a-leaf kit.
>Which system is best: Rancho, Pro-Comp, Downey, other?
Ranchos are about bottom quality when it comes to aftermarket
springs. They will last quite a while, but are quite stiff.
NWOR springs are about the same.......quite stiff.
Downey makes nice springs.....only problem is that they loose
their ride height after a few years.....nice ride though.
These are the ones I've had personal experience with......FWIW....YMMV.
>If I do a lift, my 215R75 tires will look stupid, so I'll need bigger
>wheels and tires--will switching to 31s or 32s require any gear change
>(I know my speedometer reading will be affected, but that doesn't
>bother me)? Thanks in advance for your advice.
31s with 4.10s aren't too bad. Hills are a drag and you can forget towing
much of anything.......also depends on the condition of your engine. I
definitely would not go to 32s with 4.10s.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jan 1997 12:11:38 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck
Subject: Questions on 3" lift
To: mstano@okway.okstate.edu (Michael Stano)
>> Michael Stano writes:
MS> I need help (again). I have an '84 4x4 long bed. My front
MS> springs are beginning to droop. Rather than buy new stock-height
MS> springs, I am considering a 3" lift. If I do a lift, should I get
MS> a kit with new front springs and rear add-a-leafs, which I know
MS> will stiffen the ride, or go for new springs front and rear?
I have an 85 4Runner with a 3" front springs and rear add-a-leaf. The
stiffness on this is *horrible*!!! When I had monster tires on it
(33x12.5) they soaked up much of the jolting, but I took them off
because without a gear change, the truck sucked with these monsters
on. Now with stock size tires, I want to go back to stock
suspension. And NO, I did not put those tires and suspension on
myself, I bought the truck that way and the large tires had trashed
the differential.
MS> what should installation cost?
What keeps me from going back to stock suspension is that I was quoted
about $900 for new stock front springs, 4 new Rancho 5000's and labor
to install front springs and remove rear helpers and install shocks.
MS> will switching to 31s or 32s require any gear change (I know my
MS> speedometer reading will be affected, but that doesn't bother me)?
IMHO, having large tires without regearing is the fastest way to trash
your truck. You may be able to get by with 31s, but as you get up to
32s and 33s, the possibility of prematurely wearing out your entire
drive train increases.
You say you do not want to go offroad, then why go to all the expense
to be a poser? I can understand someone who gets a suspension lift
and large tires for added clearance to go rock crawling, but other
than this, they are just window dressing and it is your money.
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen@vigra.com
http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:47:09 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Softer ride for an '85?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Mike R. Baltzly wrote:
"I would like to try to get a softer ride
from my '85 longbed...I would like
to get the ride to be at least as soft as
in a '89-'95 truck. I rarely haul anything
heavy. I drive offroad a fair bit but I don't
do any insane, extreme rock crawling. I would
be willing change to a small amount of lift or
any moderate tire size if this would make a
significant improvement in the ride.
"My current setup is:
Original stock springs (now sagged in the front)
RS5000 shocks
31-10.50 Goodyear Wrangler RT/S (28 psi)
Warn M5000 and combo mount (100 lbs?)
Steel-frame shell (200 lbs?)
"RS9000 shocks get a lot of praise, so I will
probably give them a try...NW Offroad has 2"
"soft ride" springs--are these really softer
than stock, or are they just soft compared to
really stiff lift springs?"
I have yet to hear of anyone on this or any other list call ANY springs
from Northwest "Soft," no matter what they are advertised as. I would take
NWOR's salespeople with a grain of salt.
I think everyone will second the motion that RS5000's are STIFF, STIFF,
STIFF - I lived with 'em for 10 years. RS9000's are great shocks, but you
state that you rarely carry a load. IMHO, an adjustable shock is not in
your future.
I would also run less tire pressure - 26 or maybe 24 lbs.
Methinks you should call Rocky Mountain Off-Road (970) 242-6005. They will
do stock, stiffer, or softer custom springs from 0-4" of lift. I would
recommend Bilstein shocks with no lift. It's pretty evident that you don't
want to lift if it's not necessary.
Good luck,
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 13:32:05 -0800
From: Mike Williams
Subject: Softride For an '85
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Mike, I just switched from an old style Skyjacker 5" lift with double
gas shocks all around to a NWOR 3.5 inch lift with single hydraulic shocks.
The Skyjacker 5" lift was stiff and rode much better with a load in the
bed. After having the Skyjacker lift on my truck for two years, I
decided I wanted a lower softer ride. After looking at many different
suspension systems, I narrowed my decision down to either a 3.5" NWOR
"soft-ride" system or another Skyjacker system (this time 3").
After installing the NWOR "soft-ride" system, I was _greatly_
disappointed. The NWOR system rode as hard and stiff as my old style
Skyjacker System even though it was a lower lift and had single hydraulic
shocks. So IMHO, the NWOR "soft-ride" system rides too hard and for me was a
waste of money.
*Note by old style Skyjacker system I mean the leaf springs did not have
the polyurethane pads on their tips. Also these old style spring packs
were tightly clamped at the ends instead of using loose bolt style
clamps. The new Skyjacker springs incorporate these features and I feel
these are two features that should be looked for in any spring upgrade.
Also you wrote about changing tire size. I feel that this also has an
effect on ride. I run 35" BFG All Terrains and they ride good but I
know my ride quality would improve if I changed to a 32" BFG (smaller).
Mike
'81 SR5
---------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 97 08:23:52 MST
From: chott@aicd.sps.mot.com (Jim Chott)
Subject: softer ride for 85 longbed
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I have had good luck with the Downey 3" springs all the way around using
Doetsch Tech MV-12 shocks. The MV-12's are even softer than Pre-Runners.
It still doesn't ride quite as good as an IFS, but MUCH better than the
stock springs and shocks. This was highlighted when I did a complete
suspension swap last summer from my truck to a 4Runner. The only down
side to Downey springs is that they sag after a couple years use and
need shackles. I still consider mine usable after 4 years and 70k miles
though.
Jim Chott
rzaa80@email.mot.com
1985 4Runner
------------------------------
Date: 3 Feb 1997 09:20:29 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Softer ride for an '85?
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:54 AM
OFFICE MEMO Softer ride for an '85? Date: 2/3/97
nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest) wrote:
>I have yet to hear of anyone on this or any other list call ANY springs
>from Northwest "Soft," no matter what they are advertised as. I would take
>NWOR's salespeople with a grain of salt.
I agree. I have NWOR 3.5" springs and they are way too stiff. And as Nick
mentioned, everyone I have ever talked to that owns NWOR springs also
has told me they are too stiff.
>I think everyone will second the motion that RS5000's are STIFF, STIFF,
>STIFF - I lived with 'em for 10 years. RS9000's are great shocks, but you
>state that you rarely carry a load. IMHO, an adjustable shock is not in
>your future.
The nice thing about the 9000s is that you can chose the dampening you
like. With the 5000s, the rate you get may or may not be right for your
vehicle and other conditions.
>Methinks you should call Rocky Mountain Off-Road (970) 242-6005. They will
>do stock, stiffer, or softer custom springs from 0-4" of lift. I would
>recommend Bilstein shocks with no lift. It's pretty evident that you don't
>want to lift if it's not necessary.
If you want a softer ride, you may want to try swapping in some springs
from a 2WD truck. 2WDs are sprung-under so they have decent arch on the
springs. It's an inexpensive way to go, but you may have to spend some time
playing with them to get what you want.
Curious.....what are their custom springs going for?
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
Date: 03 Feb 1997 10:50:45 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck
Subject: Softride For an '85
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
>> Mike Williams writes:
MW> "Baltzly, Mike R." wrote:
>> I would like to try to get a softer ride from my '85 longbed. I bought
>> the truck new, so I am thoroughly familiar with the normal ride quality
>> of live axle trucks--and I am starting to get tired of it.
MW> Also you wrote about changing tire size. I feel that this also
MW> has an effect on ride. I run 35" BFG All Terrains and they ride
MW> good but I know my ride quality would improve if I changed to a
MW> 32" BFG (smaller).
Well, two people have now said that going to smaller tires will make
the ride softer. I have to disagree. When I bought my `85 4Runner,
it had a 3" lift (who knows what brand, with rear extra leaf and new
front springs) and 33x12.5 tires. I know that these monster tires
were trashing the drive train, so I sold them and got stock size tires
and wheels. Now, the ride is stiffer than ever. The big bouncy tires
that were originally on there, soaked up a lot of the bumps and
softened the ride out a lot.
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen@vigra.com
http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California
-
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:12:29 +0000
From: "Mike Williams"
Subject: Custom Springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Jay wrote:
Curious.....what are their custom springs going for?
In reference to the custom springs built by Rocky Mountain Off-Road.
Rocky Mountain Off-Road is located in Grand Junction, Colorado about
an hours drive from Moab. Rocky Mountain Off-Road is run by a group
of Toyota "fanatics" as they call themselves.
Basically they will create tailor a suspension setup to a buyer's
wants. The price for each spring is approximately $150.00 ($600.00
for four springs). Their 4" softride Toyota setup includes front
springs with 5 leafs and the rears with 7 leafs. Compare this to
other suspension builders.
Besides building suspensions their shop does customs fabrication of
various parts such as bumpers and lightbars.
For more information on the type of work this shop does, there is an
article in November 1996's Four Wheel and Off-Road magazine that
highlights their work. (I don't have that copy in front of me so I
don't know which article it is off hand.)
Anyway Jack and Jay, (if I remember you are going to Moab Easter)
James and his gang will be at Moab Easter weekend and are willing to
discuss ideas and information. I have talked to James and he is very
willing to discuss suspensions, spring rates, shocks, and anything
else.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:27:27 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Custom Springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
"Mike Williams" wrote:
>Basically they will create tailor a suspension setup to a buyer's
>wants. The price for each spring is approximately $150.00 ($600.00
>for four springs). Their 4" softride Toyota setup includes front
>springs with 5 leafs and the rears with 7 leafs. Compare this to
>other suspension builders.
OUCH ! That's pricy ... at the rate soft springs last, they'd have
to come with a liftime warranty ...
>Anyway Jack and Jay, (if I remember you are going to Moab Easter)
>James and his gang will be at Moab Easter weekend and are willing to
>discuss ideas and information. I have talked to James and he is very
>willing to discuss suspensions, spring rates, shocks, and anything
>else.
I can't see forking out $150 per spring but I sure would like
them to tell me their formula for calculating spring rates if
they use a good one. One that use the length, thickness and arch
of each leaf in the spring pack unlike the one I have now that
only takes the total number of leaves, length of the longest
one, and thickness of one leaf. Or if anyone else has a spring
rate formula besides the one in the suspension book by Herb Adams
I would greatly appreciate your sharing it with me ! I tried my
best to talk the folks at National Spring to tell me theirs but
they wouldn't share, imagine that...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
Date: 5 Feb 1997 09:30:15 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Custom Springs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:41 AM
OFFICE MEMO Custom Springs Date: 2/5/97
"Mike Williams" wrote:
>Jay wrote:
>Curious.....what are their custom springs going for?
>In reference to the custom springs built by Rocky Mountain Off-Road.
>
>Rocky Mountain Off-Road is located in Grand Junction, Colorado about
>an hours drive from Moab. Rocky Mountain Off-Road is run by a group
>of Toyota "fanatics" as they call themselves.
>
>Basically they will create tailor a suspension setup to a buyer's
>wants. The price for each spring is approximately $150.00 ($600.00
>for four springs). Their 4" softride Toyota setup includes front
>springs with 5 leafs and the rears with 7 leafs. Compare this to
>other suspension builders.
Sounds pretty reasonable, especially since National wants $450
per pair.
>For more information on the type of work this shop does, there is an
>article in November 1996's Four Wheel and Off-Road magazine that
>highlights their work.
I saw their shop truck and it seemed to have good suspension travel.
However, I noticed it also had a 2 inch body lift, so it looks like
the suspension droop they are getting is not much better than what
you get with most aftermarket springs. Though......big limiting factors
are the driveshaft and draglink travel capabilities.
>Anyway Jack and Jay, (if I remember you are going to Moab Easter)
>James and his gang will be at Moab Easter weekend and are willing to
>discuss ideas and information. I have talked to James and he is very
>willing to discuss suspensions, spring rates, shocks, and anything
>else.
Sounds great. I'd like to know where we might find these guys.
Jay
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:31:38 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Quick Release Sway Bar (IFS)
To: " - (052)swilson (a) pacbell.net"
Scott:
Spending a little unwind time at work had me thinking about Ramps (RTI)
and IFS geometry
An RTI test is designed to measure max "cross", i.e. how far can you get the
front and rear axles cross opposed to each other (and do so w/ jacking each
axle seperately - like one could do with two forklifts).
So - a flexible frame (or even broken) helps for this test :)
Anyway - an IFS does NOT act the same way as a beam (solid) axle does.
Pick up on end of a beam axle, the other end is "forced down" - hence stays
in contact with the ground. (piviot point -- lever geometry)
The sway bar - becasue its rotational pivot axis is bolted to the frame -
effectivle limits the angular difference between the two wheels - and does
so by "boxing" the movement with the end links. Remove the links
(aka disconnects) and that restriction is removed.
Pick up one end of an IFS, the other end "droops down". It is forced to the
ground merely because thats the only pivot point available. As the weight
load increases on that side of the vehicle, the distance it "droops"
is defined not by an angular difference with respect to the other tyre, but
by the spring rate of that wheel. A stiff spring would appear to be better
since:
a) it holds the diff further off the ground.
b) it limits the effective rotation of the frame - making the rear
axle (assuming a solid rear) twist less for a given height up
the ramp.
However - the wheel on the ramp needs a "soft" spring as not to twist the
frame.
So - like NASCAR - you can "cheat" on the test by using a soft spring on
the wheel thats going up the ramp and a stiff one on the wheel in the
ground :) Works in one direction only tho...
Now to the sway bar on an IFS...
The sway bar effectively limits the droop on the opposite side - but this
may be GOOD. It prevents the frame from getting too much "twist"
and potentially improving the RTI....
Anyway - all this sounds good in theory, but I have not tried it...
An additional thought on the spring issue.
In general - you want to run as soft a spring rate as you can w/o
losing roll stiffness - this is more of a racecar issue (read street truck)
However, soft springs bottom out - hence lost control (spring stiffness
is infinity - no movement if on the bump stops).
Some racecars have solved this by welding a tab on to the
middle of the sway bar up against a snubber. (the mounting
brackets need to be mega beefed as well).
Thus if the car experiences roll - the bar acts as a anti sway bar.
but if the car experiences "compression" - i.e. BOTH wheels
attempt to move up, then the bar rotates (as opposed to twisting)
and the tab hits the snubber and then - violia - additional spring
force comes into play.
This gives additional compression capacity - w/o additional rebound
capacity - and ONLY under both wheels experiencing
compression at the same time (unlike hydrulic bump stops)
Hmmm.....
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:29:21 -0600
From: "Larry D Walls"
Subject: Old Man EMU
To: "Toy4x4"
> >Colin Learning wrote:> >
> > "I'm looking for a new set of springs for
> > my 85 Toy. Has anybody had any experience
> > with OME?"
I've got a 1980 Hilux 4x4 that is a Japanese Model (right side steering),
and I put a Rancho 3" lift on it will I was Overseas. The lift was made for
US models but everything fit perfect. I ordered the lift from 4 whl parts
whlse in Cal. US cost was 150$ the same lift and part number in Japan was
1400$ US downtown. I'm changing out the frame now due to rust and the
replacement one is off of a 82 4x4 the only difference is where the torque
rod bolts up, both frames have the bolt holes for the steering box for either side.
The shackle eyelet holes are exactly the same, and the spring lengths are
the same also from what I was told the Aussie & Japan models are the same
so the springs should work.
Larry D Walls
------------------------------
-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:22:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Darrell Creeks
Subject: lift kits
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>From: "Wilbur M. Yegge"
>Subject: Leaf Springs
>To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>I recently purchased the NWOR 3.5 inch lift kit(front springs, rear
>add-a-leafs) which is described as "soft riding".
I would recommend not using add a leafs if you plan to do rock crawling. I
have snapped add a leafs in half and have seen others while on the Rubicon
Trail. I bought my lift through toyota performance out of four wheeler mag.
At the time I bought it there was a life time warranty. My springs are a
little stiff on the street but they flex great on the rocks.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 13 Mar 1997 08:57:00 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: rear springs & bumpstops
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:41 AM
OFFICE MEMO rear springs & bumpstops Date: 3/13/97
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>I was wondering what you would do about the metal piece that goes around the
>springs-and helps center the U bolts-if you were to modify the rear springs.
>Do you simply remove it? It looks like this would leave the U bolt loose.
>Any help would be apppreciated.
I bend mine straight up so the leaves are free to unfold as needed but
do not walk to the side much.
Beware though......doing so makes the packs even more supple and axle
wrap will result if you don't use a good torque rod.
I also discovered a new problem after I replaced my front NWOR (junk)
springs with some hybrids I built. I left the pack clamps open. I remove
my torque rod on the trail for more articulation and found this let my
axle "roll" a bit much under certain conditions.
There's a picture on my web page of me cleaning up the splines on
my front driveshaft after my front axle "rolled" forward some and
the driveshaft came apart.
Another learning experience ;-)
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:56:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel Richard Webster
Subject: Long spring and shackles
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I'm directing this towards Jay in regards to his longer spring conversion
on this list in the hope that others may also comment.
Are there differences in the location of the stock spring mounts between
4Runners and the pick up? By the photos of the conversion, it seems to me
that your stock spring mount was located on the frame where it was at an
angle to the ground, and on my 4Runner it seems to be located further
forward, on the horizontal part of the frame.
4Runner Pickup
__-- __--
________-- ________--*
*
Am I vaguely correct in this diagram?
I have yet to go measure my springs, but am assuming that they are the
same length as the pickup's. If I moved my spring mount further forward,
would the spring collide with the frame? If that could happen, would it
be possible to move the rear shackle back, achieving the same result, but
flipping the springs around front-to-back?
Also, at what point would the angle of a shock become too small to
effectively damper? By using simple Pythagorean geometry, that the
greater the angle from the vertical, the less the shock needs to extend to
allow larger vertical travel by the spring/axle, so how much angle is too
much? I assume that this question could be solved using vectors, but I do
not know where to start.
Any help is appreciated.
Daniel Webster
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:27:07 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Long spring and shackles
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
>Are there differences in the location of the stock spring mounts between
>4Runners and the pick up? By the photos of the conversion, it seems to me
>that your stock spring mount was located on the frame where it was at an
>angle to the ground, and on my 4Runner it seems to be located further
>forward, on the horizontal part of the frame.
>Am I vaguely correct in this diagram?
I believe you are correct. I know that when I put those springs on my
truck it moved the mount down to the angled part of the frame almost to
the point where it became flat. Or almost the width of the spring hanger.
>I have yet to go measure my springs, but am assuming that they are the
>same length as the pickup's. If I moved my spring mount further forward,
>would the spring collide with the frame? If that could happen, would it
>be possible to move the rear shackle back, achieving the same result, but
>flipping the springs around front-to-back?
I can't say for sure but just by comparing the lift springs I see for sale,
the 4runners and pickups have the same springs. It's been my observation
that the first 3-4 inches of the spring does not move very much in comparison
with the rest of the spring. I would probably go on and move the
mount forward where it needs to be and put a rubber bumper on
the corner of the frame if a problem arose. You can't really flip the
mazda springs front to rear because there is only 1/2" difference between
the ends, It's 25" to one end from the center hole and 25.5" to the
other end from the center hole. What you really need to be concerned with
is keeping the tire centered in the wheel well, It's TOUGH drilling a hole
in spring steel to move the location of the axle, I've done it to my front
springs but it cost me 4 good drill bits ... If you were to move the
rear shackle mounting point rearward, you'd be negating alot of the
droop gained by switching to the longer spring which was having more
spring in front of the axle to actually droop away. A toy spring is
biased length wise to the rear heavily. A mazda spring is nearly centered.
This creates the ability for more droop.
>Also, at what point would the angle of a shock become too small to
>effectively damper? By using simple Pythagorean geometry, that the
>greater the angle from the vertical, the less the shock needs to extend to
>allow larger vertical travel by the spring/axle, so how much angle is too
>much? I assume that this question could be solved using vectors, but I do
>not know where to start.
I've seen a chart somewhere that went into great detail about this, basically
you can just imagine the direction that the axle would travel and see if
a bump would effectively move the shock enough to get any travel out of
it. I have another friend who has greatly studied shock mounting and the
angles of shock effectivity I could give you his address if You like.
I've been trying to get him to join this list, he's got a 88 or 89 PU
with a 302/NV4500 in it ... For some reason < 30 degrees comes to mind.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 21 Mar 1997 11:33:10 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Long spring and shackles
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:16 AM
OFFICE MEMO Long spring and shackles Date: 3/21/97
Daniel Richard Webster wrote:
>I'm directing this towards Jay in regards to his longer spring conversion
>on this list in the hope that others may also comment.
>Are there differences in the location of the stock spring mounts between
>4Runners and the pick up?
I'm not quite sure without looking at a 4Runner.
>By the photos of the conversion, it seems to me
>that your stock spring mount was located on the frame where it was at an
>angle to the ground
Yes, this is definitely true.
>4Runner Pickup
> __-- __--
>________-- ________--*
> *
>Am I vaguely correct in this diagram?
For the truck, yes. 4Runner.....?
>I have yet to go measure my springs, but am assuming that they are the
>same length as the pickup's.
Yes.
>If I moved my spring mount further forward,
>would the spring collide with the frame?
Would depend on how close they are and your upward travel. Remember
that the spring will not move near as much at a point say 6" from the
front mount as it will move at the bump stop.
>If that could happen, would it
>be possible to move the rear shackle back, achieving the same result, but
>flipping the springs around front-to-back?
Jack went into the length differences of the two springs and how the
center hole location is positioned on each. Moving the rear shackle
backward to accomodate the extra length would not really work well.
Also.....moving the front mount forward also moves it down......part of
our gain in lift height.....which we need because the springs used are
much flatter.
>Also, at what point would the angle of a shock become too small to
>effectively damper?
A shock is most effective (provides most dampening) when stood straight
up (vertical) for a vertical acting force. We'll call this 90 degrees from
horzontal.
Now......we have to assume the suspension travels straight up and down
as it cycles. This is not exactly true, but let's assume it for now.
As we proceed to lay the shock down at some angle, our dampening rate
is effectively reduced. Get ready for trig...........
We can figure our dampening rate as:
Maximium rate * sine of the angle to horizontal
So.....if we set up our shocks for 60 degrees to horizontal, our effective
rate will then be about 87% the max rate (vertical). The farther you lay
down, the lighter the rate gets. However, depending on where your shock
mounts are located (distance from centerline of axle, etc.), you do start
to get some dampening of axle wrap. This is a small effect though.
The angle is too great when the dampening rate (vertically) diminshes
to the point where it is not sufficient to control the truck. The lighter
the valving on the shock, the quicker you will run out of dampening as
you start laying the shock over.
>By using simple Pythagorean geometry, that the
>greater the angle from the vertical, the less the shock needs to extend to
>allow larger vertical travel by the spring/axle, so how much angle is too
>much?
Yes, if the shock is at an angle, you can have axle travel that exceeds
the rod travel of the shock.
Several other points........
On Toys where one shock lays forward and one backward there are
some differences in how these two shocks behave as they move thru
their range of travel.
The one leaning backward (top toward rear of truck) actually needs a
bit more travel (than the one leaning forward) under droop due to the
axle moving forward under droop.
The one leaning forward may need to be able to compress a bit more
under compression due to the axle moving forward under compression.
And last......then I'll shut up.......on a forward leaning shock. Depending
on lean angle and spring geometry, it is possible for there to be a point
in the droop travel where the axle is moving forward and the shock is
being extended, that dampening goes to near zero. This would also
occur at the same point with the axle moving in compression. What
would happen at this instant in time is the the shock length would not
be changing, but the axle would still be moving horizonatally and
vertically. Usually not a big deal......but a thought anyhow.
Hope this helps......if not, scroll on and thanks for letting my babble.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:39:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel Richard Webster
Subject: Long springs & shocks (2)
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Thanks for the reply, Jack.
After reading it, I went back to Jay's article and did some more thinking.
Will it be necessary to cut off the stock mount? If I left it on, would
it interfere with any side-side movement of the spring, or shouldn't the
spring be moving like that anyway? As for the lift achieved by such a
conversion, it seems to me that you guys achieved lift by moving the mount
down, and with longer shackles. Since the 4Runner's mount is already on
the flat part of the frame, no lift would be achieved by moving it
forward, and I think that fender rubbing problems might exist at
compression, even if I used longer shackles.
I'm going to go home and measure the length of the spring, to see if they
are the same as the pickup's, if they're not, I'll have to figure out
another way to give it a lift and more travel. (I was recently found to be
with two tires off the ground, and with no lockers, I was not happy).
Also, in reference to the shock, you hinted at 30 degrees being the limit.
Would that be from the vertical, or from the horizontal?
Thanks alot guys,
Daniel Webster
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:33:03 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Lift springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
David wrote:
>Ok, I tried calling several places today and just ended up getting
>frustrated. I have the rear 4" blocks on my truck and I have come to the
>conclusion: they suck! Not just a little, a whole lot! So, I am trying to
>find out about replacing them with some lift springs. I have been trying to
>keep up with the different posts on these things, but I guess they got lost
>in my head. I don't have a problem with putting something together myself,
>but this is my daily driver. It has to me a minimal of downtime. I would
>also like to talk to anyone who has getten rear springs instead of blocks
>with their lift on IFS truck. Info on add-a-lifts also welcome.
Depending upon your use and how much lift you want, for the money you
can't go wrong with running a set of mazda springs. They're ultra
soft and give lots of droop. Though this softness does not come
without a price, which in this case is the need to run a traction
bar to prevent kinking the soft springs. If you read Jay's article
on Off-Road.com, which can be gotten to from:
http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota/toyota.html
You can do it like Jay did and leave the original pair of spring mounts.
This would give you virtually no down time, If you were prepared to do the
swap when the time came.
Jay also mixed/matched some Downey springs he had lying around. I didn't
have any Downey springs so I bought two pairs of Mazda springs and
mixed/matched and cut leaves to make some nice springs packs. They work
great for the $90 I have in the springs and the $50 I have in a new set of
spring mounts. I chose
to remove the old spring mounts before welding on the new mounts, this took
about 1.5 hrs per side, which is why I suggest using the same method Jay did
if this is your only mode of transportation.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 21:27:09 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Suspension Travel
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Someone already mentioned that up travel for most stock trucks is
about 2 inches (it then hits the bumb stops).
I have also wondered on the percentage of droop to compression. If you
think you will be doing high speed with jumps I think you want more
droop.
I will let everyone know what type of answer I get from National
Springs. I will be contacting them next week on the correct procedures
to follow to have them build me some custom springs. If clearances on
my truck work (1985 x-cab) I plan on haveing about 7 inches of droop and
compression. I do not no the clearance problems for the front end (any
help Jack or Jay) I plan on having the front center bolt 2 inches
forward with about 5 inches over stock lift.
Known item that need attention. Drag link will need to be shortend and
I will have to find something for a torque rod (some type of collapsible
rod using splines or machined fit inner&outer rod.)
I will post my findings once I talk with National. If anyone could come
up with any questions that I might ask please let me know.
Jack or Jay, did either one of you talk with Don Carter (I think) in
Moab. He had a blue 1985 truck with red scallops(sp). I guess he has a
National Spring lift. I saw him down there but at the time I did not
know about his suspension. His truck is in the June 1996 4Wheel and
Sport Utility.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 09:49:10 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Suspension Travel
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Jay, thanks for the info. I would not have thought about the drag link
binding. I do have aftermarket drag link and steering arm. And I have
broke 3 steering arms so far also.
One thing on the Torque rod though. I have it in my mind that when
braking or axle wrap you will be putting a force on the Torque rod that
would try to bend it not push or pull it. So wouldn't a splined rod
still do what it is supposed to??
Jay, how much droop do you get before your drag link binds? Do you have
steering arm with ball on top?
One of my plans will probably put a single main leaf in each corner with
some spacer leaves (to take up space under main leaf) then with jack in
each corner start jacking up and down trying to find all the problems
before having the springs made. Very long process.
I also hear that custom springs cost between 180-200 each. I think
worth the price if I could get a softer ride. More travel would just be
an extra benefit.
National custom springs normally have about 10 leaves. Would having
more leaves help with axle wrap even though spring rate is soft. People
I know with nationals say yes (it is also one of the question I have for
them).
Any other info, question, ideas on custom spings would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 13:30:14 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: SUSPENSION TRAVEL
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Darrell Creeks wrote:
> I have an '83, I get 9" up and 9" down. (articulation that is)
The afore mentioned 2" was measured between the bump stop on the
top of the springs and the bump stop on the frame. Your measurements
must be from the tire to the fenderwell, which is not really an
accurate method of comparison. I was on an RTI ramp a few weeks
ago and my rear suspension at full droop was measured to be 11-3/4"
between the spring bumpstop and the frame bumpstop.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 23:40:28 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Suspension Travel
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Tony wrote:
>Jay, thanks for the info. I would not have thought about the drag link
>binding. I do have aftermarket drag link and steering arm. And I have
>broke 3 steering arms so far also.
I think you've mentioned that you have steering arms with the ball on
top. Jay and I have discussed this several times at length, and each
time have concluded that the ball being on top of the steering arm and
the way the draglink is designed actually lessens the degree of angle
it can rotate through before force is put on the steering arm. Which
results in it breaking. YMMV ...
>One thing on the Torque rod though. I have it in my mind that when
>braking or axle wrap you will be putting a force on the Torque rod that
>would try to bend it not push or pull it. So wouldn't a splined rod
>still do what it is supposed to??
Nope. It's not trying to bend it at all. Picture the axle housing trying
to rotate fore and aft under the forces of acceleration and braking.
>One of my plans will probably put a single main leaf in each corner with
>some spacer leaves (to take up space under main leaf) then with jack in
>each corner start jacking up and down trying to find all the problems
>before having the springs made. Very long process.
That is a very long and costly process, National is not exactly a
peach of a company to do business with, I wish you luck. Unfortunately
most people I've heard of buying springs from them were never completely
satisfied seeing how they spent nearly $1000 for a set of springs ...
>I also hear that custom springs cost between 180-200 each. I think
>worth the price if I could get a softer ride. More travel would just be
>an extra benefit.
A soft ride is easily achieved by buying brand 'X' springs and
adding/removing leaves from the packs. Which YOU can do and save
yourself hundreds of dollars!
>National custom springs normally have about 10 leaves. Would having
>more leaves help with axle wrap even though spring rate is soft. People
>I know with nationals say yes (it is also one of the question I have for
>them).
Yes, having more 'mass' in the pack will help slightly with axle wrap.
>Any other info, question, ideas on custom spings would be greatly
>appreciated. Thanks
Personally, I'd never spend $1000 for a set of springs ... I'd buy brand
'X' springs and mix match leaves until I found what *I* wanted, not
what National Spring *thought* I wanted ...
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 15:36:37 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Explorer Pro Comp
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Colin Learning wrote:
>
> Has anyone had any experience with the 3 or 4 inch front Pro Comp leaf
> springs. I'm just curious as to how the ride ride is.
My buddy has the 3" springs on his 85 p/u. He likes 'em a lot. I've
only ridden in the truck once, but I don't remember the ride as being to
stiff, they seemed pretty cool. His main reason for buying them was
price. I think he paid $100 for the pair at 4WPW.
Scott
- --
Scott A. Wilson __o __o __o __o
Santa Clara, CA _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_ _'\<,_
swilson@pacbell.net (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_) (_)' (_)
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:17:02 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Suspension (on hold)
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>Thanks Jack and Jay for your input on possible upgrade to National
>Springs. I am putting them of for a while.
No problem!
>I decided to call Marlin instead and order my dual x-fer case.
Cool !
>Marlin also knows Don Carter (person I mentioned who had some National
>Springs made) I will be trying to get in touch with him to find out how
>he likes them and if he thinks they are worth it.
This is just *MY* opinion but no matter what Marlin says about that guys
truck, I've seen his pics in the mags. You'll never have as much wheel
travel as I currently have going back with a set of springs that are
stock toyota length. I really hate to keep pushing swapping to the longer
mazda springs but it's just really simple mathematics.
The longer 2WD mazda springs are 5 or 6" longer (can't remember exactly
how much) but most importantly by moving the forward spring mount
forward to put the center pin of the spring pack at the middle of the
wheel well, you've given yourself the opportunity for much more droop
by adding the 5-6" to the front end of the spring.
I'm not really trying to brag but if the pics of that truck with the
$1000 National Springs is the best that suspension can do then I'm
beating him by a fair amount with my junk yard special mazda springs.
And I'm currently working on adding a buggy leaf in the rear for even more
drooping ability.
Like I said, these are just *MY* opinions based on my experiences from
playing with various springs and spring packs. If you're looking for
something that you can just bolt in then maybe the mazda springs aren't
for you, it's a fair bit of work adding the new mounts and building the
spring packs, etc. but it sure is CHEAP in comparison with a set of
National Springs ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 10 Apr 1997 15:03:41 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Suspension Travel
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 2:47 PM
OFFICE MEMO Suspension Travel Date: 4/10/97
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>Jay, thanks for the info. I would not have thought about the drag link
>binding. I do have aftermarket drag link and steering arm. And I have
>broke 3 steering arms so far also.
Sounds like you may be traveling far enough to put it in a bind and
causing it to break. I know mine flexes in the narrow portion. I can
see where the paint has flaked a bit in that area.
>One thing on the Torque rod though. I have it in my mind that when
>braking or axle wrap you will be putting a force on the Torque rod that
>would try to bend it not push or pull it. So wouldn't a splined rod
>still do what it is supposed to??
No it pushes and pulls as Jack described.
>Jay, how much droop do you get before your drag link binds?
Not exactly sure and yours will vary based on the springs you
are using, axle (re)location, draglink shape and adjustment,
steering arm, etc. You'll have to check yours to see where it
binds.
>Do you have steering arm with ball on top?
No.
>One of my plans will probably put a single main leaf in each corner with
>some spacer leaves (to take up space under main leaf) then with jack in
>each corner start jacking up and down trying to find all the problems
>before having the springs made. Very long process.
Yes, but a good idea. I did this on the rear when I was prototyping
the Mazda spring swap.
>I also hear that custom springs cost between 180-200 each. I think
>worth the price if I could get a softer ride. More travel would just be
>an extra benefit.
National quoted me $900 not including u-bolts, bushings, etc. I started
to order the fronts but realized that I might be paying $450 for springs
that still were not what I wanted. I went searching for other ways......
hence the Mazda swap.
>National custom springs normally have about 10 leaves. Would having
>more leaves help with axle wrap even though spring rate is soft. People
>I know with nationals say yes (it is also one of the question I have for
>them).
Yes, the will serve to make the spring more progressive and reduce
axle wrap a bit.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:35:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Rear droop
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> A while back I saw a discussion about a pretty common rear end sag
> on 4Runners/pickups. Now that I'm interested, I haven't seen a word
> in months.
I wouldn't recommend those 'helper' springs as they are expensive and
don't give much lift, rather they just seem to make it ride rougher.
Add-a-leafs are a different story, as they can definatley give you some
lift, but the short ones can be hard on springs (or so I've heard) I never
had any problems with mine, but then again I only ran them for a year.
The general consensus (that I gathered anyway) is that if you only need
some lift, like say an inch or so, then longer shackles are the best thing
to do--easiest, cheapest, don't effect the ride, and they can increase
travel some.
If you need more lift (like I did) you might consider a .5-1" block with
longer shackles, or a 'long' add-a-leaf. I've only seen one that's
designed to work without removing any other leaves, but it was 140
bucks...not cheap. There are probably cheaper ones out there.
If you need even more lift, probably the best solution is a set of 2"
springs.
as usual, YMMV
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:58:32 -0600
From: rob and karen boyle
Subject: shackles and procomp 85 4RUNNER
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
thank you for your responce, Jay Kopycinski. I had allready made the lift
shackles before I got your responce. Mine are close to what you suggested.
I used 2''x 5/16 stock w/ braces and holes at 6.5 '' on center. 3/4 bolts
fit tite in the new energy bushings. the truck sits dead level. (thats pro
comp 4'' lift up front, black diamond add a leafs in back) the draw back I
noticed is reduced departure angle.
the Pro Comp lift was a breeze to install. I think a torch and a welder made
it go much faster. removing the old springs seemed impossible, until we
heated them up enough to melt the old bushings. the new springs went right
on. another time saver was welding on the new bump stop extenders, rather
then drilling and bolting.I was also able to save time on the brake line
relocate. the kit gives you little pieces of angle iron to bolt on a little
lower than the stock mounting point. to save the hassle of loosening those
brake line fittings i sawsalled them off and remounted them lower with a
little weld. the ride is great with the new lift, tracks straight as an
arrow. not to hard a ride, certainly better than those stock front springs
always bottoming out on the bump stops. toyota's rule
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:03:06 -0800
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: To Poly or not to Poly
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
spadams@FORTLEWIS.EDU wrote:
also what is the general consensus on poly bushing, do they
> hold up as the ads say they do?
I've had great luck, as have many people I've talked to, with poly
urethane. Poly bushings on leaf springs absorb much more shock than
rubber, and leave you with a smoother ride. It's much firmer than
rubber, so if you want to improve your ON-road handling poly on the
anti-sway bar is the way to go. (this may hinder you off road though,
which is why I remove my anti-sway bar when I know I'll be going
off-road) I have not noticed any loss of articulation from the poly on
my leaf springs, in fact I consider them one of the best improvements I
have done to my truck.
Scott
- --
*****************************************************
Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
88 4Runner SR5 V6
Santa Clara, CA
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:34:40 -0400
From: "T. Ryan"
Subject: NWOR heavy duty replacement springs
To: "Toy ota"
While we're on the subject of sagging rear springs i wanted to say that i
put the nwor heavy duty replacement springs on my 84 4runner
because my truck had 209k and a lot of the original leaves were broken in
the front and rear. Toyota wanted outrageous money for factory replacement
springs and i didn't really want to lift the truck
i just wanted to make it able to pass CT inspection(nazis!)
Anyway, the nwor parts are well made and a good value but they
really are heavy duty. The only time my truck rides nearly as smooth as an
ifs truck is when i have about five people in it. I have the springs on all
four corners and they raised the truck about an inch.
When i put my soft top on it becomes even stiffer! Since it's ususally me
driving alone and on the highway i was wondering if i might be able to
remove a leaf or the overload leaf to make the truck ride better. Any ideas
anyone?
I think on my next 4runner i will just replace a couple of the main leaves
on the pack. I found a shop that builds springs for big trucks but can cut
you replacement leaves in any rate you want for about $35 a leave.
T. Ryan
84 4Runner
Bristol, CT
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 2 May 1997 08:23:03 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: NWOR heavy duty replacement
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:03 AM
OFFICE MEMO NWOR heavy duty replacement springs Date: 5/2/97
"T. Ryan" wrote:
snip
>Since it's ususally me driving alone and on the highway i was
>wondering if i might be able to remove a leaf or the overload
leaf to make the truck ride better. Any ideas anyone?
Yes, you could try removing the overload leaf and it should
soften things up. Expect to lose 1/2 to 1" of lift when you
remove it. Also, you may experience an increase in spring
wrap......and......if the pack is sprung lightly enough, could have
spring kinking problems. It sounds like your pack is plenty
stiff enough though.
Another possibility would be to remove the bottom spring
leaf and leave the load leaf in place. You might have to
experiment a bit.
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 23:37:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Rear Springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
A while back , somebody mentioned something about Chevy add-a-leaves working
on an 86 & up truck in the rear if you cut them a little. Well, a friend
just gave me a set of 3" leaves for a 95 Chevy. I think the width is right,
but the doo need to be cut down for sure. I have another spare set of Toy
springs, and thought I would try to put together some springs to get rid of
my blocks. Also, I remember either Jack or Jay used Rancho leaves in their
Mazda spring swap. Any help you can give would be appreciated.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 23:46:31 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Rear Springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
>A while back , somebody mentioned something about Chevy add-a-leaves working
>on an 86 & up truck in the rear if you cut them a little. Well, a friend
>just gave me a set of 3" leaves for a 95 Chevy. I think the width is right,
>but the doo need to be cut down for sure. I have another spare set of Toy
>springs, and thought I would try to put together some springs to get rid of
>my blocks. Also, I remember either Jack or Jay used Rancho leaves in their
>Mazda spring swap. Any help you can give would be appreciated.
Nope, I didn't use any Rancho springs in my swap, my packs are all Mazda
leaves. I'm sure you could cut one of the leaves down and use it to
gain the lift back from removing your blocks but I don't think you'd
be very happy with their articulation. All the Rancho packs I've
seen used .280" or .300" thick leaves which don't have the habit of
flexing real well when there's lots of leaves in the pack.
What makes the Downey rear springs flex well is that the leaves are
much thinner than a stock toyota pack or most aftermarket packs.
Anyways, I'm getting sidetracked, to answer your question. Yes, you
can do that. Here's what I'd try, if the Rancho leaves have a fair bit
of arch to them I'd remove the stock overload leaf from your pack
if you haven't already (it greatly limits compression). Then I'd cut one
of the Rancho leaves down to about 26-28" in length and have it be
the bottom leaf in your pack. Just for comparison, the lower leaf
in my rear springs are 24" long but are .240" thick, by making your
lowest leaf (the most important leaf in controlling ride height,
assuming the leaves are either all the same thickness or get thinner
from top to bottom) a bit longer than mine, you should gain a bit of
height from it and still maintain some flexibility. This is assuming
you're not wanting to gain 4" or more from an add-a-leaf and
expect it to flex at all ... Just don't cut the leaves with a torch !
You can always make the leaves shorter but you can't make them longer,
if it isn't quite the ride height you're looking for (after bolting
them up and riding them to let them settle for a few days) pull them
back off and cut an 1" off each end, this will make the pack sit
higher, but less flexibility does come with this added height.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 23:49:44 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Rear Springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I wrote:
>You can always make the leaves shorter but you can't make them longer,
>if it isn't quite the ride height you're looking for (after bolting
>them up and riding them to let them settle for a few days) pull them
>back off and cut an 1" off each end, this will make the pack sit
>higher, but less flexibility does come with this added height.
Oh yeah, don't forget to taper the end of whatever leaves you end up
cutting or they'll cut into the upper/(possibly lower too, depending
upon compression ability) leaves in the pack. You can't exactly do
the fancy diamond cut thing at home but a few hits with a grinder
will do the job.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 02:27:24 -0400
From: WartHog
Subject: Rear Springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>
> A while back , somebody mentioned something about Chevy add-a-leaves working
> on an 86 & up truck in the rear if you cut them a little. Well, a friend
> just gave me a set of 3" leaves for a 95 Chevy.
This is one of the things I have been resisting answering to.
If the spring is the same width, and the arch ( radius ) is the same ,
then you should be able to add them ( one on each side and in the same
position ).
You wanna make baby sit higher and be tighter than "stock"?
Go to a bone yard and finds a spring pak that is of the same width as
the Toy, then take them home and stick em in. add leaves from the top
down and make sure they are, on both ends, shorter than the ones above,
and longer than the ones below. The free radius may matter little, as
its the radius when clamped that matters, not the rad when laying on the
ground and released.
Therein lies the rub: My experience in spring work has been limited ( so
to say ) to mustangs. Mu best set up had Chrystler full sized wagon
springs in her ( three leafe instead of the stock four leave ). Baby
would hook up on the launch as well as carry a load.
Untill the Toy is out of warrenty, I cant play with her much. But, do I
love the way the spring wrap plays. Shw wraps to push down to push me
forward. When I do get to play with her mechanics more, this is a trait
I wish to retain.
Quit looking for the "absolute answer". It dont exist.
Its too late, and I got to get up too early.
More coherience later.
Mark
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 5 May 1997 09:40:54 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Mazda rear spring conversio
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:39 AM
OFFICE MEMO Mazda rear spring conversion Date: 5/5/97
A number of people have asked me about details of the Mazda rear
spring conversion. I now know of at least four people who have
completed the swap and two others gathering parts to do it. I
found a couple of photos that show my rear axle articulation
before and after the spring swap so I put them up on the web
for anyone who might be interested.
You can find them at:
http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota/images/comp.jpg
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:58:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Mazda rear spring conversio
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
After looking at this, I an kinda suprised. I don't mean to brag, but I am
pretty sure the 4" blocks on the rear of my truck allow more droop than that.
Once I stuck a stick straight across the bottom lip of the fender in the
rear, and the tire was a good inch or more below that. As for compression, I
did not change the bump stops at all, and my 33's will go as far as you can
get the tire in the wheel well, and not rub. I need to measure so I can give
specific measurements.
Anyway, point being: if this is all the Mazda spring conversion allows, I
will have to pass. I guess blocks are not all that bad...
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 5 May 1997 09:39:33 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Rear Springs
To: "Chris Reeves" ,
Subject: Time: 9:36 AM
OFFICE MEMO Rear Springs Date: 5/5/97
Chris Reeves wrote:
>> ... Just don't cut the leaves with a torch !
>Is there a big problem with this? My only other options are a grinder
>or a hacksaw.
I've used a chop saw and a metal cutting blade in my table saw. If you have
portable circular saw, pick up a 6-7" metal blade and use that combo.
>I picked up my Mazda springs last week, one 4 leaf pack
>and one 5 leaf pack.
Hmmmmm....all the ones I've seen were 3 leaf plus the overload.
What year were these from?
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 21:54:15 -0400
From: "R. W. 'Butch' Stiles"
Subject: Rear Springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Chris Reeves wrote:
>
> > ... Just don't cut the leaves with a torch !
>
> Is there a big problem with this? My only other options are a grinder =
> or a hacksaw. I picked up my Mazda springs last week, one 4 leaf pack =
> and one 5 leaf pack. The spring hangers should be in by Wednesday. =
> They were $26 a piece.
>
> chris reeves
Chris,
If you don't need any spring in your springs then you can have at them
with a torch. Remember, these things are specially heat treated
to make them springs in the first place, going after them with a torch
will remove that tempering and make them useless.
- --
Butch Stiles
rokitman@erols.com
Just as it says, "Rocket Man"
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:58:56 -0700
From: "Allen Jensen"
Subject: Sagging 4Runner solution
To:
After griping long enough about my 4Runner's rear end dragging, I came
across a set of Downey 1.5" lift replacement springs. A friend and I
installed them this weekend and what a difference it makes (Well, I was
just the assistant). Turned out my truck was sagging at least 1/2" below
normal, because the 1.5" lift springs brought the back end up 2.25". Then
we turned the front torsion bars up an inch to match. what a difference.
The truck rides smoother than with the stock springs, doesn't bottom out
anymore, and looks great. Now I can hardly wait to get Thumper into the
hills. Thanks Chris for the help!!
Allen Jensen
Southern California
aj@oc-net.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:25:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: OEM spring sag
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-05-06 13:54:23 EDT, you write:
> Mark:
> >While crawling under my truck yesterday I noticed a very slight upward
> >pointing V in the front leaf springs, right behind the axle, is this a
> >bad thing? How much arch are the stock springs (front) suposed to have
> >to them? (mine are arched !up! about 1/2")
>
> I'm not sure if it's a -bad- thing, but it is common. My springs curve up
> as do many of the solid-axle trucks I've looked at.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Barney McNamara
Mark, If the V in your spring is like an actual bend in the spring, you have
a kinked spring. The spring sometimes do sag, but the metal should have
curves in it, not angular bends. Either way, sagging or kinked,l sounds like
you should get some new springs.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:45:08 -0600
From: "ARTHUR RUMPF"
Subject: Toy4x4 Digest V1 #167
To:
> In a message dated 97-05-04 20:50:56 EDT, you write:
>
> >
> > > ... Just don't cut the leaves with a torch !
> >
> > Is there a big problem with this? My only other options are a grinder
> > or a hacksaw.
> > chris reeves
The torch will take the temper out of the spring in the area of the cut. A
chop saw works well, even better if you keep the cutting line cool with a
small stream of water from a spray bottle. If the area ahead of the cut
gets too hot (turns blue) it can cause the metal to harden further and slow
down the cutting substantially. Spring steel is weird stuff. I was drilling
out a center hole for a larger center bolt in a leaf once and got it too
hot. The bit stopped dead and wouldn't drill any farther. Had to start over
with a new leaf. :-(
Art
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 08:18:04 -0700
From: wgirindra@bbs.fronet.com (Wilkin Girindra)
Subject: Buggy Springs
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Just saw the post regarding the buggy springs. A friend of mine
has had the buggy springs on the back of his Toyota for about
5 months now, and I will be doing it in the next week or so.
I'm not sure if I would do it on the front of a Toyota but
on the back it is one of the most impressive modifications one
can do.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:12:29 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Mazda rear spring conversion
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Jay wrote:
> http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota/images/comp.jpg
>
> _______________________________________
> Jay Kopycinski
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>
>After looking at this, I an kinda suprised. I don't mean to brag, but I am
>pretty sure the 4" blocks on the rear of my truck allow more droop than that.
>Once I stuck a stick straight across the bottom lip of the fender in the
>rear, and the tire was a good inch or more below that. As for compression, I
>did not change the bump stops at all, and my 33's will go as far as you can
>get the tire in the wheel well, and not rub. I need to measure so I can give
>specific measurements.
>Anyway, point being: if this is all the Mazda spring conversion allows, I
>will have to pass. I guess blocks are not all that bad...
I find it very hard to believe you have that much droop/compression ability
that requires as little force to be put on the springs to cause them to
do so with stock springs. I think you are deceived by the angle of the photo's
of Jay's truck crossing the Golden Crack. Here is a much closer shot of
my truck with my suspension drooped out some, it will droop more, but is
not shown in this photo.:
http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota/images/moabj6.jpg
Even at that point it will pass your stick test with ease.
Granted that stock springs do run very flat and that is what makes a good
drooping/compressing spring is it's ability to easily flex in both directions
which a spring with lots of arch (i.e. lift) cannot do easily.
- jack
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:22:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Mazda rear spring conversion
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-05-07 15:13:13 EDT, Jack wrote:
> I find it very hard to believe you have that much droop/compression ability
> that requires as little force to be put on the springs to cause them to
> do so with stock springs. I think you are deceived by the angle of the
photo's
> of Jay's truck crossing the Golden Crack. Here is a much closer shot of
> my truck with my suspension drooped out some, it will droop more, but is
> not shown in this photo.:
> http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota/images/moabj6.jpg
> Even at that point it will pass your stick test with ease.
>
> Granted that stock springs do run very flat and that is what makes a good
> drooping/compressing spring is it's ability to easily flex in both
> directions
> which a spring with lots of arch (i.e. lift) cannot do easily.
>
> - jack
I think I was misunderstood. I did not mean to say that Jay's articulation
was lacking in any way. On the contrary, it obviously has me beat by a few
inches. My point was actually two-fold. First, I was simply stating how
much travel I have, and the stick test was the best measurement I could give
off hand. Second, I have been complaining about the blocks on the rear of my
truck, and have wanted to change to something else. I had figured that this
spring swap would make a significant difference. I guess I underestimated my
truck, and overestimated the swap. I was trying to say that the cost, time,
and work that would go into the swap would only gain about 2" more droop, and
this does not seem worth it to me. I think I could get this much from the
buggy leaf setup, and use parts I have around the house.
I guess I need to get a picture or two of my truck at full droop/compression
and scan them. Then I can get some opinions other than my own. Jack, I will
say that the droop on my truck is about where yours is at the site you
mentioned. That was just playing on a little mound, the best place I could
find yesterday. That is with stock springs, stock shackles, overload leaf in
place, and 3.5" blocks.
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:41:47 -0700
From: wgirindra@bbs.fronet.com (Wilkin Girindra)
Subject: Buggy Spring
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Hello Jay here are some answers to the buggy spring. I have been chatting
with Jack about the buggy springs for about a month now. Soon I will have
pictures of the buggy springs and 1/2 doors that I can send you (friend just
bought a scanner). Sorry Jack that the pics have taken so long.
Anyways here is how my buddy did the buggy springs.
1.First you have to find a pair of Toy springs and take
the main leafs out of both packs and cut them just past
the center bolt. That is the length you will need. He has
a 1983 shortbox and I have a 1981 shortbox.
2. He took his box off and drilled straight down through the
frame. I'm not sure about this way. On the early toys the
frame has some sort of internal bracing that makes drilling
straight through very difficult so he had to cut open the frame
on the inside. By the way the drilling is right above the axle on
the frame. This puts the shackle close to stock area in the back.
2 Grade 5 bolts with sleeves where used for the mounting of the
buggy spring. One centering pin was also used. The spring is
mounted under a sandwich plate and voila you have a buggy spring.
I've heard of another way, Rocky Mountain Off Road Specialities in Colorado
is mounting the spring with U-bolts around the frame and a centering pin.
I might be wrong but I'm a bit uncomfortable with this method in terms
of the clamping on the frame. I'm not going this route.
I'm going to mount the buggy spring a third way by welding a mount to
the frame. When I have pics I will scan them and send them to you.
As far as problems or difficulties. Off road it works awesome.
Droop is excellent.On road there is no problem if you drive reasonably.
If any other questions feel free to e-mail me directly. The 1/2 door design is
very cool and functional.
Wil
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 8 May 1997 16:02:00 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Buggy Spring
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:40 PM
OFFICE MEMO Buggy Spring Date: 5/8/97
wgirindra@bbs.fronet.com (Wilkin Girindra) wrote:
>Hello Jay here are some answers to the buggy spring. I have been chatting
>with Jack about the buggy springs for about a month now. Soon I will have
>pictures of the buggy springs and 1/2 doors that I can send you (friend just
>bought a scanner). Sorry Jack that the pics have taken so long.
snip instructions for mounting buggy spring
>As far as problems or difficulties. Off road it works awesome.
>Droop is excellent.On road there is no problem if you drive reasonably.
Wil......thanks for the feedback. I have a couple more questions for you.
First how do you get the frame-to-tire clearance for so much articulation?
My current rear suspension has the capability of about 2" more droop that
I cannot currently use in articulation because the tire in compression hits
the frame rail.
Also, if you use just the main leaf for the buggy spring and make it fairly
long, how do you keep it from coming into use prior to the leaf pack fully
stretching out?
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 00:03:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Buggy Spring
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-05-08 21:35:23 EDT, Jay Kopycinski wrote :
> First how do you get the frame-to-tire clearance for so much articulation?
> My current rear suspension has the capability of about 2" more droop that
> I cannot currently use in articulation because the tire in compression
hits
> the frame rail.
I was thinking about this too. The only solutions I see are 1.) wider axles,
or changing to wheels that have more backspacing. Well< I guess you could
get real crazy and re-route the frame inward....
> Also, if you use just the main leaf for the buggy spring and make it
fairly
> long, how do you keep it from coming into use prior to the leaf pack fully
> stretching out?
>
I don't see where this is a factor. Is there a problem when the spring comes
into action?. I was thinking of using some sort of stopper to limit the
buggy spring from getting to close to the frame. This was so it could not
sag, and would make sure that at rest, there would be no difference that the
stock hanger.
This brings out my other question: Is there a problem with lateral forces? I
feel that this is the main concern safety wise. Whoever mentioned a special
locating hanger, that sounds the best. that way you could somehow brace it
to keep it lined up with the frame. For some reason, I think that 2 bolts
and one centering pin is not enough.
David
DRM0332aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:30:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Buggy Spring
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> I don't see where this is a factor. Is there a problem when the spring comes
> into action?. I was thinking of using some sort of stopper to limit the
> buggy spring from getting to close to the frame. This was so it could not
> sag, and would make sure that at rest, there would be no difference that the
> stock hanger.
>
> This brings out my other question: Is there a problem with lateral forces? I
> feel that this is the main concern safety wise. Whoever mentioned a special
> locating hanger, that sounds the best. that way you could somehow brace it
> to keep it lined up with the frame. For some reason, I think that 2 bolts
> and one centering pin is not enough.
Here's a thought: Try welding on two small pieces of metal on either
side of the buggy spring. The idea is just to have it hang down enoug
to keep the buggy spring from moving side to side at rest, but not so
much that it limits side to side movement when the suspension is fully
drooped. Also, if you made the braces hang down enough, you could run a
bolt through these two places, but directly below the buggy leaf to keep
it from moving downwards (when you're on road).
Well, it's a thought, anyway.
What I'm curious about though, is how much a buggy leaf might affect
spring/axle wrap. It seems as if you had the buggy leaf effectively
pushing down on the shackle, it'd be more likely to allow spring/axle
wrap. To those who have done it, what's it really like (real world)?
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 9 May 1997 09:02:53 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Buggy Spring
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:23 AM
OFFICE MEMO Buggy Spring Date: 5/9/97
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>Hey everyone, I have not seen the article about these springs but
>reading the mail it sounds like your putting a small single spring above
>your rear spring that your shackle bolts to. When your spring droops to
>its limits the single spring starts to bend allowing more droop.
That's correct. There's an article in the June 4-Wheel & Off-Road showing
the M.O.R.E. buggy spring kit for a Wrangler.
>If I am right Jay might want to check around with some hard core jeepers
>down in arizona. Last year some Arizona big boys where up at Moab jeep
>safari with them installed. Worked real well. Jay, if you ask around
>you will probably find someone local down there with them. A guy I know
>at the local Toyota dealer hear has a friend with them on his toy. I
>will try and contact him to get his installation procedures.
I think you're thinking of Shannon Campbell who lives here in Gilbert.
He used a buggy spring on the front axle of the Jeep he used to own.
He won the Fourwheeler Tough Truck contest with it last year.
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>I was thinking about this too. The only solutions I see are 1.) wider axles,
>or changing to wheels that have more backspacing. Well< I guess you could
>get real crazy and re-route the frame inward....
I currently have tire clearance problems that are limiting my available
travel in the rear. I may go to the IFS truck wider rear axle but will have
to cut my fenders to keep the tires from hitting. Changing the frame may
be a little extreme.
>> Also, if you use just the main leaf for the buggy spring and make it
>> long, how do you keep it from coming into use prior to the leaf pack fully
>> stretching out?
>I don't see where this is a factor. Is there a problem when the spring comes
>into action?. I was thinking of using some sort of stopper to limit the
>buggy spring from getting to close to the frame. This was so it could not
>sag, and would make sure that at rest, there would be no difference that the
>stock hanger.
Yeah, the stopper is a good idea.
What happens if you have the buggy spring start working too early.....I
think you lose the progressive nature of your leaf spring system which
is one advantage of a leaf system over many of the coil systems.
>This brings out my other question: Is there a problem with lateral forces? I
>feel that this is the main concern safety wise. Whoever mentioned a special
>locating hanger, that sounds the best. that way you could somehow brace it
>to keep it lined up with the frame. For some reason, I think that 2 bolts
>and one centering pin is not enough.
Most all buggy spring setups I have seen use a panhard or similar locating
bar to keep the axle from shifting to the side too much.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 9 May 1997 15:49:29 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: 3 inch springs, Downey or N
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:38 PM
OFFICE MEMO 3 inch springs, Downey or Northwest? Date: 5/9/97
Dr. Karl Bellve wrote:
>I am about to buy 3 inch springs for my 1985 4Runner. I had Northwest
>Off Road 2 inch spring system (rear add a leaf) on my old 1985 4Runner. I
>broke a leaf in the front and one of the rear add a leafs driving in deep
>sand on Assategue (MD). I am now going to get the 3 inch springs for my
>new truck either from Downey or Northwest. I think I am leaning towards
>Downey because they are NHK springs and seemed to be reinforced better.
>Anyone have opinions on this?
The NWOR ones are very stiff. They use only three thick leaves. They are
cheap though. The Downey ones are better but will sag out over time.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 22:06:25 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: 3 inch springs, Downey or Northwest?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Dr. Karl Bellve wrote:
"I am about to buy 3 inch springs for my
1985 4Runner...I am now going to get the
3 inch springs for my new truck either
from Downey or Northwest. I think I am
leaning towards Downey because they are
NHK springs and seemed to be reinforced
better."
If your choice is only Downey or NWOR, I would go Downey.
Reasons:
1. I have Downey 3" front springs in my truck now. I like 'em a lot. I
think they're a great spring for the price, and I think the Downey people
run the operation pretty fairly (aberrations aside).
2. NWOR seems to be run by a bunch of charlatans. I've never heard a good
word spoken or written about them. Maybe if we don't give them our
business, they will either wise up or go out of business.
However, if my choice was wide-open, I think I would go with the Alcan
springs from Rocky Mountain Off-Road. Pricey at three hundred frogskins a
pair, but quality built to your specs. Five-leaf fronts and seven-leaf
rears, military-wrap spring eyes, greasable teflon inserts, urethane
bushings, and your choice of lift heights - anything from 0" - 4".
- Nick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:31:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: 3 inch springs, Downey or Northwest?
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> sand on Assategue (MD). I am now going to get the 3 inch springs for my
> new truck either from Downey or Northwest. I think I am leaning towards
> Downey because they are NHK springs and seemed to be reinforced better.
> Anyone have opinions on this?
I was kinda curious too.. and I couldn't really decide (between Downey
and Skyjacker--I'd heard a few random negative things about the NWOR),
and I went Skyjacker. Really, the only reason was because I sorta
wanted more than 3" of lift (I ordered the 4" rear springs). I'll let
you know how they do when I get them on.
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:16:59 +0000
From: "Mike Williams"
Subject: 3 inch springs, Downey or Northwest
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Dr. Karl Bellve wrote:
>
> "I am about to buy 3 inch springs for my
> 1985 4Runner...I am now going to get the
> 3 inch springs for my new truck either
> from Downey or Northwest. I think I am
> leaning towards Downey because they are
> NHK springs and seemed to be reinforced
> better."
>
I have to agree with both Jay and Nick - NWOR has stiff springs. I
switched from an old style 5" Skyjacker lift (tightly clamped, no
polyurethane pads) to a NWOR "soft-ride" system. IMHO I just wasted
my money; I didn't gain anything but a lower truck and a stiffer
ride.
Nick wrote:
> 2. NWOR seems to be run by a bunch of charlatans. I've never heard a good
> word spoken or written about them. Maybe if we don't give them our
> business, they will either wise up or go out of business.
I have been sorely disappointed in the (lack of) customer service
that NWOR provides its customers. I think NWOR should change its
motto to "The bitterness of poor customer service remains long after
the sweetness of low price is forgotten"
As has been stated before everything that NWOR sells can be bought
elsewhere.
Nick also wrote:
> However, if my choice was wide-open, I think I would go with the Alcan
> springs from Rocky Mountain Off-Road. Pricey at three hundred frogskins a
> pair, but quality built to your specs. Five-leaf fronts and seven-leaf
> rears, military-wrap spring eyes, greasable teflon inserts, urethane
> bushings, and your choice of lift heights - anything from 0" - 4".
I am seriously considering buying springs from Rocky Mountain
Off-Road in Grand Junction, Colorado later this summer. I have
talked to James (who is one of the owners) before, and he is very
willing to discuss suspension needs and does build custom springs to
fit any Toyota owners needs. I would recommend giving them a call at
either (970) 242-6005 or 1-800-524-6005.
Hope this helps.
Mike Williams
======+++++++++++++======
mwill@ctos.com
===++++++++++++++===
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:33:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Dr. Karl Bellve"
Subject: 3 inch springs, Downey or Northwest?
To: Nick Krest
On Fri, 9 May 1997, Nick Krest wrote:
> However, if my choice was wide-open, I think I would go with the Alcan
> springs from Rocky Mountain Off-Road. Pricey at three hundred frogskins a
> pair, but quality built to your specs. Five-leaf fronts and seven-leaf
> rears, military-wrap spring eyes, greasable teflon inserts, urethane
> bushings, and your choice of lift heights - anything from 0" - 4".
Phone or address? Or better yet, a URL?
Dr. Karl Bellve
Biomedical Imaging Group
University of Massachusetts
WWW : http://molmed.ummed.edu/~kdb/
Email: kdb@molmed.ummed.edu
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Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:50:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Darrell Creeks
Subject: buggy springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I recently made a pair of extension shackels that automatically would extend
with tire droop. the problem I had was super duper axle wrap. When I would
start from a stop sign the shackles would fully extend then slam closed. I
would think the buggy springs would have the same affect. Thanks to Jay's
web site I learned how to make a ladder bar that will work in the rocks. I
get to test it next friday. I'm going to the Rubicon with a bunch of j**ps.
I also cant wait to try my new marlin case.
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Date: 12 May 1997 10:56:13 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Mazda leafs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 10:53 AM
OFFICE MEMO Mazda leafs Date: 5/12/97
JMAX71@aol.com wrote:
>I missed some of the disscussion on the mazda leafs stuff.
>My question is.....is the mazda main leaf longer than a stock toy rear leaf
>(79-85), if so how much.
>Thanks for the info!
The Mazda rear main leaf is about 5 inches longer than the stock
Toy live axle rear main leaf. This is where a lot of the travel and
ride improvements come from.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:43:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: 3 inch springs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On Mon, 12 May 1997, phil callahan wrote:
> I've read the recent NWOR/Downey spring posts and it
> appears the Downey is the more desirable of the two.
> But, given the Downey charactieristic of sagging, has
> anyone had any experience with the newer 3 inch
> Skyjacker suspension for a live axle toy? My '83
> does double-duty hauling hay/feed so I must compromise
> flexibility with the need to tote a heavy load over rough
> roads. Thanks
Well my 4" skyjacker springs just got in today! They look pretty much
like I expected: 3 main leafs, with a load leaf too. The main leafs
have teflon pads in between them, and the springs came with shims (3-5
degree something like that) bolted too them. These do NOT have the
military wraps like the Downey ones FWIW.
Anyway, I'll let you all know how I like them once I get them on. We'll
be putting a set (of rear springs) on an 1986 toyota p/u and a 1987
4Runner. BTW, the 4runner uses p/u springs, so expect it to sit a
little lower.
Oh yeah, one other thing I forgot to mention. Skyjacker doesn't really
include much with the springs. If you're expecting a big box of parts
with them--don't! I got a set of poly bushings (four) and the shim
that's mounted to the spring. That's it. No brake line bracket, or
proportioning valve bracket, no U-bolts, bump stops, grease for the poly
bushings...none of that stuff. (okay with me because I knew about that
before hand and ordered the stuff that I'd need).
I did get instructions and a sticker too. Oh yeah, FWIW, it looks as
though the full kit's (for solid axle trucks) don't include any of the
steering fix stuff, but the instructions do mention that you should get
them.
The best price I found was National Tire and Wheel, and they sent
everything (four springs) in one week for 120 bucks (shipping) plus $465
(springs). If you think that's expensive, you should see what it costs
to ship those buggers to AK.
Also, FWIW and everything: Friday the 8th I placed all my orders (4WPW,
Downey, National Tire and Wheel), and everything got here nice and
quick, in good shape, and as I expected it to be. Now we just gotta put
it all on!
Later,
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:19:49 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: add-a-leaf
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
penny wrote:
my truck (an 82 toy 4x4 L.B. w/3in.body
> lift and 35 inch general grabber m/ts) My problem is,during extreme
> compression my passenger side front tire makes contact with the body will
> these add-a-leafs give me the extra couple inches i need? at $43.99 it
> seems like a cheap solution to this problem. what about a shackle lift up
> front?
That's just what I was gonna suggest.
>which is better?
Personally I think the shackle lift is a better idea. The add-a-leaf is
going to stiffen up your spring, you won't get as good articulation
compared to the springs as they are now. Another plus is the ease of
installation. You won't have to mess with the spring pack, just slap on
the shackles.
is changing front shocks mandatory with both of these ideas?
Depends on how much travel you have out of your current shocks. When I
did a shackle lift on the rear of my 88 4Runner I found out (in my
garage) that my travel was now restricted by the shock, so I had to go
buy longer shocks. The stock length shocks didn't have enough extension
for the 2"s of lift the shackles gave me.
Hope this helps...
Scott
- --
*****************************************************
Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
88 4Runner SR5 V6
Santa Clara, CA
http://users.uniserve.com/~rcomber/scottw/scottw.htm
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:43:14 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: add-a-leaf
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Penny wrote:
>this ad says get 2"-2 1/2" of lift for sagging front ends caused by snow
>plows or winches. I have neither. my truck (an 82 toy 4x4 L.B. w/3in.body
>lift and 35 inch general grabber m/ts) My problem is,during extreme
>compression my passenger side front tire makes contact with the body will
>these add-a-leafs give me the extra couple inches i need? at $43.99 it
>seems like a cheap solution to this problem. what about a shackle lift up
>front? which is better? is changing front shocks mandatory with both of
>these ideas? any info or opinions??? please e-mail me (im not on real time
>mode) purnrgy@quancon.com thanx in advance ...
What you're really looking for is taller bumpstops, your problem is caused
by the springs compressing so much that the tire is hitting the inside of
the fender well upon compression. My truck does this. I have trimmed
some metal from the inside of the fender which stopped alot of it but
it still rubs during extreme compression.
Neither extended shackles or new shocks will stop the problem if your springs
are soft enough. An add-a-leaf would most likely stop it because it would make
the spring pack so stiff that it wouldn't be able to compress that much, at
the cost of wheel travel. Extended bump stops are what you're looking for.
A note though, I'd look into exactly what the tire is rubbing on. Wheel
travel is what everyone else is fighting for and you're looking at giving it
up because of an occasional fender rubbing.
- jack
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Date: 13 May 1997 15:55:35 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: add-a-leaf
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:47 PM
OFFICE MEMO add-a-leaf Date: 5/13/97
"penny" wrote:
>this ad says get 2"-2 1/2" of lift for sagging front ends caused by snow
>plows or winches. I have neither. my truck (an 82 toy 4x4 L.B. w/3in.body
>lift and 35 inch general grabber m/ts) My problem is,during extreme
>compression my passenger side front tire makes contact with the body will
>these add-a-leafs give me the extra couple inches i need? at $43.99 it
>seems like a cheap solution to this problem. what about a shackle lift up
>front?
One further note about swapping to longer shackles up front. You may
find that tire rubbing on the rear edge o