Steering
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Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:25:32 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron)
Subject: Land Cruiser Lean
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
>My bottom line concern with all of this is that it's frequently scary
>to change lanes on the freeway in my Cruiser, especially where some of
>the older blacktop is rutted. I'm running 33x12.5x15's and I've already
>replaced all of my tie-rod ends and my wheel bearings appear to be in
>good shape. I'm wondering if the suspension sag might be the last
>thing to correct my "wanna grab every line in the road" steering.?
>Or, could it be that I'm just spoiled by my 95 SR5 and this is just
>a typical Cruiser drive?
- -Are the tires radials?
Bias ply tires do the rut-following thing with a vengence.
- -Are the tires inflated to too high a pressure?
- -Are your steering bearings [aka king pin bearings] in good shape and
pre-loaded correctly?
- -Is your caster angle correct?
This is the main source of complaints about handling in lifted trucks.
- -Do you have a shackle lift without caster correction shims in
place? If so then have the caster determined at an alignment shop and then
get the right shims to correct for it. Adding half a degree or so over
stock spec can help.
- -If you have a spring lift: Is the spring rate hard? Is the caster angle
correct? [not likely]
- -Yes, the sag does cause a very slight change in alignment and spring
rate due to shackle angle. If you are runnig stock shackles it will not
be a problem as much as if you are running longer shackles.
- -Please do not even try to compare an IFS rig with a solid live axle
rig. Not on-road, and especially not off-road. They are very different.
You might be spoiled on-road by the SR5, but you will be spoiled off-road
by your LC.
j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
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Date: 18 Sep 1997 09:24:50 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Anybody a metallurgist???
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:18 AM
OFFICE MEMO Anybody a metallurgist??? Date: 9/18/97
Saturday.......I had a strange feeling about the day. We were
headed out east of Phoenix to prerun a new trail for the
Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs Jamboree next
month. We were going to attempt to do a complete run
of a 4.5+ trail we are adding to this years runs. The
trail runs near the historic Martinez Mine area, a very
scenic canyon.
We had a small group of well-built vehicles on the run.
We had two CJs, two Scouts, two FJ40s, one Ford F250,
an '85 4Runner and my truck.
We drove the dirt road to the start of the trail in the wash.
About 1/4 mile in, my luck struck and I found myself high-
centered on my difs spinning sand in the air. Great......here
I am stuck and we're not even to the first obstacle yet.
A quick tug from Ken's 4Runner and I was moving again.....
......for about 20 feet.......SNAP.........what the ????...........
I'm not even on anything tough......axle?.....driveshaft?
uh oh........steering arm snapped in half. Doggone, this
very same thing happened to me not 5 miles from here
at the Jamboree two years ago. I thought I fixed that
front steering binding so this wouldn't happen ????
The arm broke again at the thin part about three inches
from the ball end. It kinda looks like the arm had been
cracked previously. This is kinda scary. I'm sure glad
it happened when it did and not while going down the
freeway.
We swapped out the arm in 20 minutes or so and got
rolling again.......although now a bit apprehensive about
my luck.....I surely didn't want to slow down the group.
We ran the rest of the trail without breakage and found
a great loop trail that is very challenging. Oh.....my neighbor
Marty did roll his CJ while climbing a ledge he had just
previously gone up and down successfully, but all was
well and we finished the day all in one piece.....well...save
the front turn signal I shattered doing something a little
stupid.....and the a little bend in my front bumper......
playing around.
Are there any metallurgists in the crowd? I'm kinda
interested in figuring out the failure history and
getting some indication as to how much damage or
stress the part had undergone over the past months.
I can provide photos or the part.
Now I'm not so sure that the steering arm is safe
with simply preventing droop bind......I now think
it is somewhat susceptible to breakage within its
normal range of movement, but when combined
with large (33") tires and the stresses of rock
crawling.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:45:25 -0000
From: runars@isbank.is
Subject: Anybody a metallurgist???
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Jay, my dear friend, that cracking is absolutly not from those
"big" tires of yours. Actully 33" tires are VERY SMALL in my
books, and other Icelandic books (and we have had hundreds
Hiluxes riding on 36"and 38" for 17 years, and I have never
heard of this problem. Neither have we ever heard of
articulation!....).
But with a suspesion system like yours, you are absolutly not
within normal range of movement. As the axle drops the drag-link
starts pulling on your steering arm in all the wrong directions
(upward), and if that doesn't create some crasy stress, then I'm
an pink elephant with wings.!
The stress that occurs when your right tire climbes up onto a
rock, is quite a bit, and at that time, the left one goes down and all
the force is going through a crasy angle at the arm, with or without
binding.
Luckely, steering components tend to break when stress is high,
and stress is high on them when your wife is trying to get out of that
tight spot in the mall (turning while standing on the brake), or when
you are on the trail. Luckely, when driving straight (ala freeway)
forces are small.
Swap over to that crossover steering soon. If you value the
life of yourself and more important, your passengers...
That swap is quite easy, but does reduce upward travel on the
right side a bit, specially with the 4.3 motor.
Yeah, and btw, Toy knuckles are orginal part of the steering
system.
Cheers Runar.
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:48:02 -0700
From: Wiley Davis
Subject: Anybody a metallurgist???
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
you could always weld material to gusset the arm...just be sure to have
it heat treated afterwards or you will make it worse.
Rock crawling combined w/ larger tires is enough to fatigue the stock
parts. it was a forged steering arm right?
- --
- -Wiley Davis-
mailto:cdrom@off-road.com
http://www.off-road.com/~cdrom
It's sad to see a family torn apart...by something
as simple as a pack of wolves.
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Date: 18 Sep 1997 16:43:57 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Anybody a metallurgist???
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 4:28 PM
OFFICE MEMO Anybody a metallurgist??? Date: 9/18/97
Runar wrote:
>Jay, my dear friend, that
>cracking is absolutly not from those "big" tires of yours. Actully 33"
>tires are VERY SMALL in my books, and other Icelandic books (and we
>have had hundreds Hiluxes riding on 36"and 38" for 17 years, and I have
>never heard of this problem. Neither have we ever heard of
>articulation!....).
Ok ok ...I meant large compared to stock.
>But with a suspesion system like yours, you are absolutly not
>within normal range of movement. As the axle drops the drag-link
>starts pulling on your steering arm in all the wrong directions
(upward), and if that doesn't create some crasy stress, then I'm
>an pink elephant with wings.!
Hmmmm....pink....guess you're right. The stock system is just
not well suited for the kind of articulation I'm trying to
exert on it. Thinking about what you're saying....the stresses
do have to be extreme when the draglink is pulling on it
in the extreme angle.
>The stress that occurs when your right tire climbes up onto a
>rock, is quite a bit, and at that time, the left one goes down and all
>the force is going through a crasy angle at the arm, with or without
>binding.
Yes, good point.
>Luckely, steering components tend to break when stress is high,
>and stress is high on them when your wife is trying to get out of that
>tight spot in the mall (turning while standing on the brake), or when
>you are on the trail. Luckely, when driving straight (ala freeway)
>forces are small.
Yep, but she doesn't drive my truck, so I do all the breakage ;-)
>Swap over to that crossover steering soon. If you value the
>life of yourself and more important, your passengers...
>That swap is quite easy, but does reduce upward travel on the
>right side a bit, specially with the 4.3 motor.
Yeah, I know I have to do it. The biggest problem will be clearing
the 4.3 oil pan, but I think some tin snips and welding rod may
solve that little problem.
>Yeah, and btw, Toy knuckles are orginal part of the steering
>system.
Those do work fine..........
Wiley Davis wrote:
>you could always weld material to gusset the arm...just be sure to have
>it heat treated afterwards or you will make it worse.
Yes, but it still won't solve my travel limitation problems....and.....
that mod kinda scares me too.
>Rock crawling combined w/ larger tires is enough to fatigue the stock
>parts. it was a forged steering arm right?
Well.....I think it is a cast steel piece, but can't say for sure.
Anybody got a power IFS steering box for sale ???
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:10:04 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Those darn steering arms.
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Jay, you are not alone. I know I have talked about my luck with
steering arms before. but here is a quick rundown.
1st arm- running a trail outside of Barstow near the Calico mines.
Already made it past the hard section, driving down basically dirt road
when it broke. As you stated, my arm had already been cracked (had rust
buildup inside where it broke). Removed arm, got ride to Barstow, had
it welded together, installed back on my truck, drove off the trail and
then to Pheonix.
2nd arm- Trying to cross the Golden Crack and the Golden Spike trail in
Moab. (this was the arm I had welded in Barstow). One note though- I am
sure that the problem at the time was when the left tire dropped in the
crack and started back out my drag link caught on my u-bolt (I am sure
of this because my drag link end bent about 45 degrees). Then I am
guessing when it finally jumped the u-bolt all that pressure snapped the
arm quite easily. (not a good place to break without a spare, 3hrs to
town, 1-2 hrs trying to get welded, 3hrs back to truck, 3 hrs back off
trail)
3rd arm- Once again trying the Golden Crack. This was a ball on top
steering arm I had on a spare front axle assembly I came across (old
broken arm now spare). I hardly even started up on the backside of the
crack when this one broke. This arm broke at the rear mounting bolts.
This was scarry because the entire section between the two rear bolts
was all rust. So the only thing holding the arm on was the two outside
edges. All I can assume is whoever owned the axle before I bought it
must not have torqued the arm on correctly.
No more after that yet (have not attempted the crack since). The arm I
have on now is a ball on top from Skyjacker. I have also reinforced the
arm using about 5/8 solid round stock cut in half and bent and twisted
to follow the shape of the arm from below the ball to the two rear
mounting bolts.
Tony.
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:05:42 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Moving spring hangers
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> If you are planning on increasing the front axle travel, you
>NEED crossover steering
Runar, I don't agree. I don't run crossover and have heaps of travel. I
would agree that is easier to go the crossover path. Crossover steering
in itself introduces its own bump steer problems due to the length of
the arc in the steering rod. In some cases the problem can be worse. But
given good engineering either setup can be effective.
> In a cross-wise direction, axle roll does not change the
> effective draglink distance.
Jay, whenever you have the axle pivoting from a diferent location
relative to the steering link bump steer will be created. With
crossover, ie the link parallel to the axle, this is worst when the
attachment point is closest to the opposing hub.
James.
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:34:39 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: onfused
To: Toyota 4x4 List
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>Well, when I put on my alcans with axle moved forward I had no front
>drive shaft in. While driving I would have bad diving right problems
>when braking. (this is with no torque rod)
>
>Well, after I installed my front driveshaft I no longer have this
>problem, still with no torque rod.
This is probably because the weight and spline friction of the driveshaft
provides sufficient resistance to keep the axle from rolling as much when
you brake. My best guess.......
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toyket (ROKTOY)
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:42:43 -0700
From: DQuezada@diabloresearch.com
Subject: Custom tie rods and tire info
Hello all--
I know some of you guys have put a ton of work into steering, so here's
my question for you; when building a custom tie rod, what material do
you use for the shaft? I've found a half dozen different suppliers of
high quality, high strength rod ends (Heim joints), but nobody seems to
know what to connect'em with! Obviously, the stuff has to be strong --
that's why I'm concerned with finding the right material. So can anybody
help?
Also, does anybody have any experience (GOOD or BAD) with General
Grabber MT's? I'm looking into a set of 33" tires, and considering the
Generals -- I'm particularly interested in sidewall strength, wear
characteristics, and traction abilities on rock.
Thanks guys - Dan
Dan Quezada (dquezada@diabloresearch.com) -- San Jose,CA.
Esprit De Four 4WD Club -- www.espritdefour.com
1985 4RUNNER -- stock22RE/ 3" Downey lift/31" Dunlops/cheap black rims
1971 CJ5 -- Buick 225 - SM420 - Warn O/D - LockRite F - LSD R
"God forgives - rocks don't."
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:28:33 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Custom tie rods and tire info
DQuezada@diabloresearch.com wrote:
>I know some of you guys have put a ton of work into steering, so here's
>my question for you; when building a custom tie rod, what material do
>you use for the shaft? I've found a half dozen different suppliers of
>high quality, high strength rod ends (Heim joints), but nobody seems to
>know what to connect'em with! Obviously, the stuff has to be strong --
>that's why I'm concerned with finding the right material. So can anybody
>help?
Typically most people use DOM tubing. Some also use heavy wall
seamless carbon steel pipe.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
============================================================================
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