Torque Rod
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Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:26:23 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: torque rod
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
SKeene8194@aol.com wrote:
>>With a 3" lift, I cannot attach the torque rod, will this cause a problem?
>>Do I need to rotate the axle or can I just lenghten the rod?
>If the truck was driven this way, the axle may have already rotated.
>You may have to take it to an alignment shop to find out.
>Have them check Castor angle. Set it right and reconnect the torque bar.
The torque rod has nothing to do with the front axle 'rotating' and
staying in that position as both of you mention. If your front axle
is somehow 'rotated', I'd think you have other more serious problems
than the torque rod. The torque rod's job is to limit the axle housing
rotating during braking/accelerating. If your truck is pulling to the
right under braking than that is from the lack of the torque rod which is
caused by the drivers side only draglink. As you brake the suspension
compresses which causes the draglink to move which in turns causes the
wheels to turn a bit. How much they turn depends on how fast your going
and how hard you depress the brakes.
The answer to your problem is to lengthen the rod and preferably put a heim
on the axle end of the rod or convert to cross-over steering, which does
not suffer from the same malodies as stock Toyota solid axle steering.
Jack Alford
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Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:20:41 +0000
From: "Mike Williams"
Subject: torque rod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On 16 Apr 97 , Gerald Crandall
wrote:
> I recently purchased my 1983 SR5 pickup. It has about a 2 to 3 inch
> lift. I am currently running 235\70R15. I noticed that the torque rod
> was disconnected. It lacks about .50 inch of lining up to the mount.
> Do I need to rotate the axle or can I just lenghten the rod?
Push - Pull - Sweat - Grunt The stock torque rod on a solid axle
Toyota with a 3" lift can be connected but it is no fun. Rancho
makes an adjustable torque rod that is easier to install.
................ I am
> contemplating slightly larger tires , will that affect the position of
> the torque rod also?
Tires shouldn't affect the position of the torque rod but suspension
changes sure will.
> If the rod is left disconnected what ill effect will it have?
Well, I would think that if you are driving without your torque rod
connected you would feel its negative affect. I drove my truck once
around the block without the torque rod connected and the difference
was very noticeable. Whenever I hit the brakes, my truck's front
axle would try to roll (under ?) and the truck would immediately
pull to the side of the road (not an experience I would like to try
at highway speeds).
**I have seen a couple solid axle trucks that are driven without
torque rods or any other device to stabilize the axle, but from my
experience the torque rod definitely needs connected at both ends.
Mike Williams
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:23:51 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: torque rod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Jerry Crandall wrote:
"... my 1983 pickup...has about a 2 to 3 inch
lift...the torque rod was disconnected. It
lacks about .50 inch of lining up to the
mount. Do I need to rotate the axle or can
I just lenghten the rod? If the rod is left
disconnected what ill effect will it have?"
The torque rod helps keep everything straight when you're braking. It is a
very bad idea to not have one. As for it not lining up, that's caused by
non-factory springs or too much lift. I would get a Rancho or Conejo
adjustable torque rod (~$60). This will solve your problem, and you will be
able to compensate for any future front suspension mods you might do.
Good luck,
- Nick
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:47:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Valentine
Subject: torque rod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Could a torque rod help me or be the/or one of the problems with my
brakes? Its and '88 4Runner and pulls badly (usually to the left) but
I've noticed it pull the the right before. It only pulls when braking
quick and hard.
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:52:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: torque rod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> Could a torque rod help me or be the/or one of the problems with my
> brakes? Its and '88 4Runner and pulls badly (usually to the left) but
I doubt it, unless you've swapped in a solid axle.
__
Jonathan Albrecht
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Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:16:35 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Jacks cross-over steering.
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
"Brian Gallus" wrote:
> Jack, when you converted your steering to cross-over, did you
> reinstall the torque rod?????
Well, actually I've never had the torque rod attached at all. Since my
truck had IFS I never had anything to mount it to and never got around
to welding a mount on for it. To *me* it wasn't really that bad not having
it, it was just something you learned how to drive against (everytime you
press the brakes the truck goes right and I'd steer left to counter it).
So, no I didn't hook the torque rod up. But even if I had the mount to hook
it up now, I couldn't because I think it would hit the draglink. The drivers
side only draglink is the main factor for needing the torque rod, without that
type steering I don't think there is really a need for it or I haven't
found one .... I'm sure the axle is rolling some but it's not a problem ...
Jack Alford
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Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:14:08 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: torque rod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Kevin Valentine wrote:
"Could a torque rod help me or be the/or
one of the problems with my brakes? Its
an '88 4Runner and pulls badly (usually
to the left) but I've noticed it pull
the the right before. It only pulls when
braking quick and hard."
No, torque rods are only applicable to straight front-axle Toys. It sounds
to me as if you've got a brake problem. Do yourself a favor and fix it
before it leads to trouble.
Good luck,
- Nick
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Date: 1 Jul 1997 16:17:32 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Alcan Springs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:39 AM
OFFICE MEMO Alcan Springs Date: 7/1/97
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>Oh, I also need to do something with my torque rod. Possibly mount it
>with hitch pins to it can be removed (Jay if you read this far what have
>you done with yours??).
I use a heim on one end and secure both ends to the truck using cinch
pins and hitch pins so I can remove it in about 15 seconds.
Jay Kopycinski
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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:43:11 -0700
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: Front torque rod
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
Just to add fuel to the fire, I don't recommend disconnecting this rod.
I just came back from the Rubicon, where I wheeled with a guy with an '83
pickup with a permanently-removed front torque rod. He broke the left-side
main leaf spring while coming back, going over 'the slabs' near Loon Lake.
He said he breaks one every year. We had to use 2 vise-grips to clamp his
spring-pack together in order to nurse him back to camp. IMHO, I believe that
they are breaking because of the extra stress caused by not using the torque
rod . YMMV
Rick Murray
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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 09:30:03 +0200
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Front torque rod
To:
Sounds like he's most likely got some other underlying problem. I've
never had a torque rod at all and have wheeled my truck hard and have
never broken a spring, and my springs aren't standard off the shelf jobs.
So, I'd think I'd have a higher than average chance of breaking a spring,
which hasn't happened ...
- jack
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Date: 11 Nov 1997 09:05:33 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Ripping my torque rod mount
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:34 AM
OFFICE MEMO Ripping my torque rod mount Date: 11/11/97
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>Jay, I have cracked my mount off of my axle. I noticed a crack awhile
>back and during my rubicon run it broke all the way off.
Yes, I've seen this happen on a few trucks.
>I am planning on mounting a new one to the front frame mount. I am sure
>you know but to do this correctly it is easier to remove all leaves from
>you springs except the main spring and second spring if military wrap.
>This is so you can articulate the suspention easier to make measurements
>and find correct mounting points.
The torque rod design works well on the street but there are limitations
on the trail. Since the rod is not the same length (shorter) as the leaf
spring, the spring tends to 's' curve when it droops a lot. As with
four-links and such, this can also happen when the links are longer
than the springs. So you end up with a compromise, make the bar
long and live with the 's' problem or try to match the leaf distance
radius and possibly suffer some travel limitations.
Removing my rod places added stress on my steering arm, but leaving
it in place obviously puts lots of stress on the rod and mount.
I don't feel you need to remove your springs. Any rod design like
the stock one will end up as a compromise. I would think it best
to mount the bar parallel to the ground when the axle is in the
middle of its travel. Let us know if you come up with a good
solution.
>I Think I have a few problems by NOT running a front torque rod.
>First, under lots of stress I have no left turning. My pitman arm will
>be at its stop and my tires will still be pointing straight. This
>started happening when I noticed it broken on the Rubicon.
>I still have not pinpointed the problem but it has to be axle wrap.
>I also think this was part of the problem with my latest broken steering
>arm.
Sounds like you are rolling the axle rather than getting the
steering input into the driver side knuckle. This can happen
when you have soft springs up front. Crossover steering
will get rid of this problem. With crossover steering there
is a loss of steering input due to any side flex of the axle
due to springs, etc. but this is usually minimal.
End of novel........
Jay Kopycinski
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:20:31 -0500
From: "Michael Greenway"
Subject: Ripping Torque rod/reply
To: Jay_Kopycinski@latgqmg.sps.mot.com
You wrote:
>Since I broke my last steering arm and Runar had suggested
>my running with the torque rod removed might be placing
>more stress on the arm, I've wheeled the last few times
>with the torque rod in place.
>I was crawling under my truck yesterday and noticed that
>I am now starting to tear the torque rod mount on the frame.
>With my longer shocks and springs I'm just getting too
>much front axle articulation for the stock steering parts......
>and that's still with limit straps in place.
>Just for info.....anybody else experienced this?
I broke my mount frame mount twice, broke axle mount once, and broke
the rod in half once. This is over a 10 yr period. I have had three
suspensions on it 2.5 Rancho, 3.5 Inch NWOR (sucked), and 5 inch
Softride. I finally used a S-shaped rod that I adjusted while vehicle
is on flat ground. I do run with bump stop extenders. The trails I run
are the usual Telico slimy rock type. It articulates ok I guess. Since
I replaced the rod I have not had any problems.
Michael Greenway TLCA #3000
76 FJ40, 81 mini, 86 4-Runner
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 09:18:55 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Moving spring hangers
To: Toyota 4x4 List
runars@isbank.is wrote:
>Comming to thing about it I might not be as smart as you think.....!
>Since the drag-link is kind of parallel to the torque-rod, its probably
>the lenght and position of the torque rod that controls bumpsteer,
>rather than the leafs..... Kind of makes sence, doesn't it.....?
In the stock configuration, under reasonable travel conditions, the
front geometry works fine. The torque rod effectively controls axle
roll (fairly neutrally) and the draglink is designed to minimize
bumpsteer as the springs move thru their arc of travel.
Once you lift the truck, then things get messy. We all know about
the problem when about 3" or more is added.....the draglink becomes
too short to allow full turning radius to the right. The steering ratio
is also affected as the draglink now works thru a steeper angle.
Bumpsteer is introduced as well because the draglink and spring
arcs no longer track each other as well.
An aftermarket longer draglink solves the radius reduction problem,
but does nothing to solve the bumpsteer or the modified ratio.
Now the torque rod.......With a lift, the torque rod is no longer
in a neutral (horiz) position. Same deal here....as the axle drops,
it wants to roll. The springs resist this somewhat depending on
how stiff they are. Under extreme cases the spring will try to
curve like an S. This drop and roll situation also has bumpsteer
problems too.
Several companies make extended or S torque rods. While these
get it hooked back up, they do nothing to correct the geometry
problem. The NWOR raised axle bracket is a little better solution.
You have restored the torque rod to a more neutral position but
now the lifted spring has its lever arm at an angle.....and since
the leaf spring arm and the torque rod are different radiuses,
they will still tend to bind under extreme travel.
A torque rod mounted at the front cross-member (where the
front spring eyes are) is a better solution to minimize bind in
this system.
Confused?........I am ;-)
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:08:43 -0500
From: Scott
Subject: Moving spring hangers
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>On this, why do Toy's need this rod? I know Chevy's have the same/similar
>steering, and they do not need a torque rod. What is the difference?
>stiffer springs? Is it that crossover steering just makes this "roll"
>irrelevant whereas it binds the stock steering?
I think it is in the way the sway bar is mounted. It connects directly to
the axle, which probable acts like the torque rod.
Scott
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:15:22 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: confused
To: Toy4x4
Want to talk confusing.
OK, I hear that when the front torque rod is removed you will dive right
(i think) when you brake hard.
Well, when I put on my alcans with axle moved forward I had no front
drive shaft in. While driving I would have bad diving right problems
when braking. (this is with no torque rod)
Well, after I installed my front driveshaft I no longer have this
problem, still with no torque rod.
Tony
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:34:21 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Torque Rod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
The torque arm controls bump steer relative to the at rest position of
the suspension. The suspension is located by the fixed end of the leaf
pack. As the diff moves up the pack flattens. This causes the diff to
move rearward slightly. The opposite occurs as the suspension travels
downward. These movements are amplified rearward of the diff and this
movement is taken up by the shackle. This is fairly controllable with
minimum travel, however when travel increases so does the amount of
rearward movement in the diff. This is shown best in the rear of most
3+in lift kits when the bumpstop no longer makes contact with the welded
on striker plate. Another movement is created when the axle articulates
called skewing. This creates a froward movement on one side of the axle
and a rearward movement on the other side. This movement causes the axle
to move out of the 90 degree alignment relative to the frame and acts
like the front wheels on a billycart. The skewing effect is also
increased as travel increases. The torque arm helps control these
movements when the diff travel is relatively small. As the torque arm is
fixed in length and the pivot point (leaf spring fixed eye) is not, the
arm actually creates bump steer at the upper and lower ends of the
travel. It is effective close to the at rest position of the suspension.
The torque arm does not really address the skew of the diff.
When braking, due to the inertia of the Frame/Body and the resistive load
applied to the axle by the brakes, the frame will attempt to move
forward relative to the diff. As the spring arch is increased this
movement is increased due to the fact that a straight link is stronger
than a curved one. With the steering in parallel to the leaf pack this
causes a steering change. The torque arm is designed specifically to
control this steering change. This is why a single link is used on the end
of the axle closest to the draglink. In the case of LHD this is the
left, on RHD as we have here it's on the right hand side. Older vehicle
designs such as the LC FJ40 do not have the torque arm generally due to
the softer standards at the date of manufacture. Its is true that a V
type linkage controls the axle better but it is still highly restrictive
to articulation due to the skewing of the axle. With extreme travel the
V link starts to become dangerous due to the large skewing movements and
the forces involved. I run a V link and for this reason it is setup with
quick disconnects for off highway use. As for modifying the torque arm
and altered suspensions a general rule is there is none. To correct the
torque rod to stock performance on road, both pivot points need to be
moved and close attention needs to paid to the spring rate and arch. Due
to the limited space forward of the leaf pack I have found that for
lifts above 5 in you need to go to a V link setup to correct to stock
specs for on road use only. I haven't gone into the geometry of the
Torque arm itself as its fairly complex and for most people is best
handled by a suitable engineering shop as a dangerous setup can easily
be created.
James Stevenson
TonkaTuf Engineering, Australia
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