Traction Bars
------------------------------
Date: 19 Feb 1997 09:30:45 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: traction bars
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:55 AM
OFFICE MEMO traction bars Date: 2/19/97
Steve Capuano wrote:
>I would not even know where to start on these things, but would like any
>info that can be offered up on users of these setups. I don't like for my
>axle to hop when I light 'em up.
Don't bother with kicker shocks if you really want to stop axle hop.
The shorty solid bars that mount above the springs work fairly well,
but limit travel. This may or may not be important to you.
The longer Rancho bars are a good idea but eat up ground clearance.
Again, depending on your use, this may or may not matter to you.
I fabricated a pair that were about as long as the Ranchos but mounted
alongside the frame rails. They worked well but could not handle
extreme articulation movement.
Jim Chott runs a nice bar that is mounted to the center top of the
rear diff and runs forward to the horseshoe shaped crossmember.
His design works well and I'm sure he can provide more info if
you need it.
I currently run a ladder type bar with a shackle and heim joint
on the forward end. Karl Ingram (out of Oklahoma) came up with
the design and it seems to work well for me.
Hope this helps.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:13:54 -0800
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: traction bars
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
I have no experience, yet, with traction bars, but I have one
on order from Rocky Mtn Offroad Specialties. Their design seems like
the ideal way to go. One end is welded to the top of the rear differential,
and the other attaches to the crossmember near the tranfer case. A little
pricey ($150) however. Its not supposed to limit articulation like the
others. Not being a welder, I have to pay someone to put it on.
One comment on oil filters (a lister mentioned all-stock, except, among
other things, a FRAM filter). I recommend that you ALWAYS USE GENUINE
TOYOTA OIL FILTERS. Like genuine Chrysler filters, they have a
anti-drainback check valve that is supposed to extend engine life by not
allowing the oil to drain all the down back into the pan after the engine
it turned off. Sounds good to me, so the extra $ is worth it. They are
normally around $7 , but wait for the occasional sale , when they get marked
down to $4 , then stock up.
Now for a question ... Have any of you early 4RUNNER owners installed a
roof rack that can be mounted with the canopy off ? I want to do this
and am looking for ideas. I'm thinking of a (canopy-on) Yakima or Thule rack
that mounts , in front, to the cab rain gutters, and in back to the gutters
on the canopy. Then , in the summer, with the canopy off, fabricating
rear brackets that allow the Yakima/thule tube to be attached to the roll-bar.
##################################################################
Rick Murray 84 Toyota 4Runner SR5
( rmurray@gvn.net ) stock 22R motor ; 3" ProComp Lift
Rancho Cordova, Ca. 8" steel rims; 33" BFG M/Ts
www.gvn.net/~rmurray/ 4.88 gears; Marlin TCase #67 ; TRD LSD
##################################################################
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 12 Mar 1997 12:49:10 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Rear torque rod
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 10:21 AM
OFFICE MEMO Rear torque rod Date: 3/12/97
rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray) wrote:
>I've ordered a torque rod for the rear end, to reduce axle-wrap, and
>wheel-hopping while rock-crawling. Its supposed to be welded to the
>rear diff, and attaches to a frame cross-member. Anyone have any
>experience with these ? Any pre-cautions ?
A lot depends on the design.......is this a fixed rod design, ladder bar
design, shackled design, etc? Each type has it's advantages and
disadvantages in certain applications.
The spring rate and travel extremes of your suspension also play
a role in how the bars will work. Sorry I can't be more specific
without writing a page full of dribble.
Note also that any design should be fairly strong as there is usually
a lot of stress on the rod ends. I've built a few....I've broken a few.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:59:41 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Rear torque rod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Rick Murray wrote:
"I've ordered a torque rod for the rear end,
to reduce axle-wrap, and wheel-hopping while
rock-crawling. Its supposed to be welded to
the rear diff, and attaches to a frame
cross-member. Anyone have any experience
with these ? Any pre-cautions ?"
1) Make sure the rod length is correct as soon as you get your package.
2) Most shops I've seen use two tiny pieces of .125" steel to locate each
end of the rod. IMHO, not enough material for the loads it will be
experiencing. I fabbed up a large u-shaped bracket from .250" chromoly.
3) Tap the bushing end and put a zerk in there.
4) After the rod end goes away, spend the money on a really good one.
5) I've seen people weld the bushing end to the horsecollar crossmember
above the driveshaft. Fine, but they were welding to the thin, drilled-out
vertical part. I went for the piece on top. It seemed far more substantial.
Good luck,
- Nick
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:35:23 EST
From: matt877@juno.com (Matthew C Chapin)
Subject: Rear torque rod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I have broken my rear torque rod once already! I built it myself, and it
held up really well until one day I was crawling and slipped onto a rock
and the rod caught almost all of my trucks weight . My front torque rod
has broken twice . I don't know why, but it breaks at the weld to the
frame. so I just re-weld it.
matt877@juno.com
81' 4x4 SR5
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 13 Mar 1997 08:51:00 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Rear torque rod
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:42 AM
OFFICE MEMO Rear torque rod Date: 3/13/97
nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest) wrote:
Subject: Rear torque rod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>I've seen people weld the bushing end to the horsecollar crossmember
>above the driveshaft. Fine, but they were welding to the thin, drilled-out
>vertical part. I went for the piece on top. It seemed far more substantial.
Good point Nick. I offer another alternative...........
I bolted my forward mount to the horsecollar Nick mentions. My mount plate
bolts vertically to the backside using two 3/8" bolts. On the front side are
the mating 3/8" nuts but I also use a small piece of 1/4" flat bar under the
nuts to help distribute the bolt load and prevent crushing or distorting the
crossemember. Seems to be working fine.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: 13 Mar 1997 09:11:57 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Rear torque rod
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:43 AM
OFFICE MEMO Rear torque rod Date: 3/13/97
matt877@juno.com (Matthew C Chapin) wrote:
>I have broken my rear torque rod once already! I built it myself, and it
>held up really well until one day I was crawling and slipped onto a rock
>and the rod caught almost all of my trucks weight . My front torque rod
>has broken twice . I don't know why, but it breaks at the weld to the
>frame. so I just re-weld it.
My front torque rod kept breaking the weld too after I extended
it due to lift. I finally figured out that it wasn't the up and down
travel that was breaking it, but the twist caused when one end
of the axle dropped. The hard rubber bushings just don't provide
much articulation movement. A rod end (heim) oin one end solved
that problem.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 15:53:38 -0500 (EST)
From: SKeene8194@aol.com
Subject: Rear torque rod.
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
This Question is directed mainly to Jay Kopycinski & Nick Krest who were
discussing Rear torque rod design. for pickups.
When the springs are compressed the axel moves rearward as the shackle swings
back. What have you done in your designs to allow for the rear movement of
the axel and still be able to prevent spring wrap? How much movement would
you say you have built into your design?
Steve Keene - skeene8194@aol.com
TLCA #5414
81 Pick up, 33"X12, 3" Lift, On board Air, Lock-Rite in rear, 4.56:1,
Diff breathers, etc.,
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:21:48 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Rear torque rod.
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
>When the springs are compressed the axel moves rearward as the shackle swings
>back. What have you done in your designs to allow for the rear movement of
>the axel and still be able to prevent spring wrap? How much movement would
>you say you have built into your design?
I think your logic is a bit flawed, the axle never really goes rearward more
than when the truck is at rest. The distance from the front spring hanger
to where the springs are bolted to the axle housing is a static distance.
At some point in the springs range of compression, as it becomes negatively
arched, it is a hair shorter but it never really gets any longer of any
significant amount.
A single attachment point on the top of the pumpkin can greatly help control
axle wrap but cannot do so without limiting travel.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:26:44 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Rear torque rod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Steve Keene wrote:
"When the springs are compressed the axel
moves rearward as the shackle swings back.
What have you done in your designs to allow
for the rear movement of the axel and still
be able to prevent spring wrap? How much
movement would you say you have built into
your design?"
Jack Alford replied:
"I think your logic is a bit flawed, the
axle never really goes rearward more than
when the truck is at rest. The distance
from the front spring hanger to where the
springs are bolted to the axle housing is
a static distance. At some point in the
springs range of compression, as it
becomes negatively arched, it is a hair
shorter but it never really gets any
longer of any significant amount.
"A single attachment point on the top of
the pumpkin can greatly help control axle
wrap but cannot do so without limiting travel."
I agree and disagree with the above statements, but let me explain my position.
Ideally, when a rear axle goes through its travel, it swings thru an arc.
The pivot point would be the front attachment point of the driveshaft to
the transfer case. Of course, Toyota mucked up this ideal-world suspension
by having actual attachment points which alter the arc somewhat. This is
Steve's "rear movement" and Jack's "hair shorter." The movement is very
small, but it is there. I believe that axle wrap presents more of a
fore/aft movement problem than the irregular arc. We simply described the
ideal arc, compensated for a less-than-ideal forward torque rod mounting
position, and spec'd the rod length (which for my truck is 45.5"). Ideal
forward rod mounting position would be at the forward U-joint of the rear
driveshaft, but you can't have everything, at least on a budget.
To answer Steve's question about freeplay compliance, we accomplished that
by using a large-diameter 70-durometer urethane bushing in the front mount,
which will accomplish about 2 mm of deflection, and the existing rotation
of the axle in the rear (axle wrap).
Jack wrote that a single attachment point will limit travel. This is true
in our case (because of the dual divergent forward attachment points: 1)
driveshaft 2) torque rod), but it doesn't because we don't have that much
travel. We've got appoximately 9.5" of travel - we sit about 3.5" into the
stroke (6" compression, 3.5" extension) - so the travel in our case is not
affected. If we were running a compound long-travel suspension, then yes,
the single-rod torque rod would take away some travel. An ideal axle-wrap
solution in that case would be a 3-link or 4-link suspension, but we would
have already eliminated most of our problems in the first place by
eliminating the leafs!
It's an old Toyota truck with leaf springs. A single-rod torque rod was the
most cost-effective solution to maintain travel and articulation while
eliminating 90% of the axle wrap. I feel it's a far more viable solution
than ladder bars, kicker shocks, those traction bar thingies that attach to
your leafs, etc. Here is the construction:
______________________________________________________________
O|______________________________________________________________|-O
At the forward attachment point we have a tube with the aforementioned
urethane bushings mounted in a tube which we welded perpendicular to the
main torque rod. The torque rod is 1.5" chromoly steel (roll bar material).
At the opposite end is a nut welded on the end of the tube which accepts a
large spherical rod end.
Bolts run thru either end to a U-shaped mounting plate. The front mounting
point assures more-or-less vertical operation, while the rod end at the
rear allows for axle articulation.
I'd like to see Jay's design, though. He's always something of an
innovator. And how about the rest of you? How do you control axle wrap?
- Nick
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ 1981 Toyota 4WD SR5 Pickup Bone-stock 22R motor 5-speed transmission /
/ 4.88 gears Detroit TrueTrac front Detroit Locker rear \
\ 3" Downey front springs 2 9" Doetsch-Tech MV-12's per front wheel /
/ 3" Rancho rear springs 2 10" Doetsch-Tech MV-12's per rear wheel \
\ 33x12.50-15 Bridgestone Dueler AT's or 33x12.50-15 Goodyear Wrangler HT's /
/ Hella 500 front fog lights Hella H-4 headlights Hella FF backup light \
\ Smittybilt front bumper, rear bumper, nerf bars, and in-cab roll cage /
/ 14 gallon auxiliary gas tank Brahma shell No chrome whatsoever \
\ Momo wheel Cerullo seats TRW/Sabelt 4-point belts TLCA ID #5301 /
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
also...
1993 Mazda Miata 1993 Honda XR150R 1987 Guerciotti
1995 KTM 550 MXC 1995 KTM 660 Dakar Rallye 1997 KTM 300 EXC
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:00:08 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Rear torque rod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I should have added when going through all my theoretical drivel, that when
Toyota "mucked up" the ideal suspension arc by adding actual suspension
mounting points, the arc is changed to a much smaller one, which pivots
around the fixed (forward) leaf spring bolt.
However, because there is no suitable attachment point for a torque rod
that would emulate the arc of the leaf spring, eliminate axle wrap, give
appropriate under-vehicle clearances, and allow full travel, we decided to
go with the theoretical "ideal" arc nearer the front u-joint. It's a
compromise, yes, but it was the one with what we feel is the least amount
of downsides.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:19:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Rear torque rod
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Nick Krest wrote:
> I should have added when going through all my theoretical drivel, that when
> Toyota "mucked up" the ideal suspension arc by adding actual suspension
> mounting points, the arc is changed to a much smaller one, which pivots
> around the fixed (forward) leaf spring bolt.
>
> However, because there is no suitable attachment point for a torque rod
> that would emulate the arc of the leaf spring, eliminate axle wrap, give
> appropriate under-vehicle clearances, and allow full travel, we decided to
> go with the theoretical "ideal" arc nearer the front u-joint. It's a
> compromise, yes, but it was the one with what we feel is the least amount
> of downsides.
There was a discussion similar to this on the Offroad digest, and there
were several ideas mentioned. The one I liked the best was to have a
bar/bracket solidly attached to the rear axle, and on the other end of the
bar to have a shackle--one end attached to the bar, the other end attached
solidly to the frame.
The idea would be to assume that the rear suspension travel does go
through an arc (like Nick's idea), but to use a shackle that runs
perpendicular to the force that's exerted on the bar when the axle
rotates. The advantage of this, is that it would virtually eliminate axle
wrap, but since there is a shackle on one end, it wouldn't limit travel at
all.
I know there were some great pictures (ascii) that people made on the
offroad list, if somebody still has them, you might want to post 'em...(I
don't feel like drawing any ascii stuff right now.)
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:31:23 -0600
From: "J. Chacon" (by way of Jack Alford )
Subject: Rear Center Trac Bar
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I have heard of all the talk of design of rear trac bars and have to add
my .02. I currently have a design on my 91 Toy that I am very pleased
with. It is almost the same design as Jack A's except for a few minor
diffs. Here it is: 1 1/4" cromoly tubing with 3/4" thread bar welded into
each end w/about 2 1/2" sticking out each side. To each end I have a
female ended "Heim" joint screwed into the thread bar, so the bar is
freely moving/twisting when installed. The "Heim joints" not only allow
for max vertical movement, but also will allow the axle to shift from side
to side, which does happen when one wheel is stuffed (not much 1"or2
either way under extreme situations: rock crawling exc). The reason I went
with this set up is that I have seen the
axle shift far enough to one side, that with the "bushing type mount" set
up at
the cross member, it will rip the mount for the trac bar off the
crossmember,
because there is not enough side to side movement built into it. The
bushing type mount is only designed to handle virtical movement, and very
little side movement. The Heim joint set up is what they use on many of
the baja race bugs and trucks. I have had no problems with my set up and
it has eliminated 90% of the rap without limiting any of my articulation
or wheel travel.
jchacon@u.washington.edu: 91 Toy, 3" body lift 1"susp. 32"TSL's, 4.88's,
True Trac up front,ARB rear, Centerforce II clutch.................
------------------------------
Date: 17 Mar 1997 15:42:42 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Rear torque rod
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 1:47 PM
OFFICE MEMO Rear torque rod Date: 3/17/97
nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest) wrote:
>I'd like to see Jay's design, though. He's always something of an
>innovator. And how about the rest of you? How do you control axle wrap?
I use what is basically a triangulated ladder bar that attaches at
two points (vertically) on the rear axle near the center of the axle.
On the forward end I use a heim joint mounted to a shackle, mounted
to the horse-collar crossmember.
The triangle holds the axle to prevent wrap and the shackle allows
for articulation movement.
I can't be credited with the original concept. Karl Ingram (Norman, OK)
and a friend of his came up with it.
One friend of mine is experimenting with another forward mount
using what looks like a sway bar bolt/tube apparatus.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: 17 Mar 1997 15:21:06 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Rear torque rod
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 1:14 PM
OFFICE MEMO Rear torque rod Date: 3/17/97
SKeene8194@aol.com wrote:
>This Question is directed mainly to Jay Kopycinski & Nick Krest who were
>discussing Rear torque rod design. for pickups.
>When the springs are compressed the axel moves rearward as the shackle swings
>back.
Yes, this is true. Also, the higher the arch in the springs, the greater this
affect is. My current springs are quite close to flat, so the effect has
been reduced. Adding 4-5" to the front length of the leaf springs also
reduced the axle movement you mention as well as axle steer induced
when when one side is drooped and one side compressed.
>What have you done in your designs to allow for the rear movement of
>the axel and still be able to prevent spring wrap?
I use a triangulated track bar design with a forward mounted shackle
to allow for droop and axle movement.
>How much movement would you say you have built into your design?
Hard to say. I have not fully checked the track bar movement with both
ends of the axle fully drooped. This is mostly an irrelevant factor for
me as I use my truck mostly for rock-crawling and not for jumping.
As such, I care more about extreme axle twist where the true vertical
movement of the pumpkin is not that great.
I have not found my track bar to limit articulation. What I did find
affecting my limits were (in order): load leaf (compression), Downey
springs (droop), shocks (droop), and now......inner tires hitting frame
rails under extreme twist.
_____________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_____________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 09:19:04 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: Downey leaf springs and Rancho Kicker shocks
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Sterling Rorden wrote:
"I currently have Downey leaf springs
front and rear which have sagged. I am
considering having them re-arched if
possible. Are there any problems with
having this done?"
I don't believe in re-arching; this doesn't mean it's not valid. I just
believe that suspension components are a replaceable commodity. Hopefully,
someone else will offer up their opinion.
"I have a chance to buy a set of Rancho
Kicker shocks for $50 used. Do these
really help reduce axel wrap-up? I sort
of like the idea of shocks instead of
torque arms since I mostly drive the truck
on the street."
The kicker shocks lessen the effects of axle wrap. They don't eliminate it.
Unless you're doing a lot of articulation-type wheeling, I have heard they
work fairly well.
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:12:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: SKeene8194@aol.com
Subject: Spring Wrap
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In a message dated 97-04-09 02:03:58 EDT, you write:
<< 've been reading posts refering to axle wrap w/ soft rear springs, and it
seems to be a big problem. I'm assuming it's a "you'll know it when it
happens" sort of phenomonon, but what are the symptoms? How does one know
that it is happening, and what, if anything, does it hurt?
Just curious,
-Greg
Greg S. Francis >>
Even stock toyotas have some axel wrap. Have somone else drive your truck while
you follow. Tell them to hit the gas hard after each shift. You'll see the
rear axel twist each time they shift. You can also feel if when you hit the
gas after a shift. The next time you're behind a Toyota watch his axel and
you'll see what I mean. In a stock Toyota the bottom load leaf is designed to
limit the wrap. Softer springs will wrap easier. Also serious off roaders
will get rid of the bottom load leaf because it limits spring compression.
Without the load leaf there is nothing to stop wrap. So you will have to
come up with something else. There are no good bolt on/off the shelf track
bars that work without limiting trailability. Most of the good ones are
home made.
Steve Keene
skeene8194@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:29:58 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Spring Wrap
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Greg F. wrote:
>I've been reading posts refering to axle wrap w/ soft rear springs, and it
>seems to be a big problem. I'm assuming it's a "you'll know it when it
>happens" sort of phenomonon, but what are the symptoms? How does one know
>that it is happening, and what, if anything, does it hurt?
Well, it all depends on your springs, how soft they are, and if you're
still using the factory load leaf or some other really THICK lower leaf
in your spring packs. What happens is that the entire axle housing rotates
the pinion upwards under throttle, with a BIG, THICK set of springs the
spring packs themselves would generally be enough to control this wrap
but when the number of leaves is few and they're thin the problem
becomes much worse.
Due to rotational forces involved, the pass. spring wraps much worse than
the drivers side spring. If your springs are soft enough and you give it
enough gas you can kink your springs. I speak from experience here. It
seems to be a situation like you're attempting to climb a big ledge or
loose hill and most of the weight is on the rear wheels of the truck so that
it can actually get traction (assuming you have a rear locker). I
was climbing a large ledge and had all the weight on the rear wheels with
the truck pointed skyward and gave the truck a pretty good bit of throttle
and it REALLY wrapped the springs up and kinked them. It ruined the springs
and I lost about 2-3" of lift in that instant, it shortened the distance
between the axle housing and forward spring mount and pulled my tires into
the lower fenderwell and flared the lower edges of the fenderwells on both
sides of the truck out. With the springs kinked it left the pinon rotated a
few degrees too many skyward, it burned up my upper pinion bearing on the
200 mile trip how from where I was and toasted my lower rear u-joint.
So, Yes, when it's that bad you'll know. A tell-tale sign for me that it was
happening is that driveshaft hitting the gas tank skid plate. For a while
the weight would go ding-ding-ding-ding as the driveshaft rotated and
the weight would hit the edge of the skid plate. Then the weight evidently
got ground smooth and it didn't ding so much any more but you could hear
the metal-on-metal ringing of it.
I know have a traction bar and the difference is UNBELIEVABLE. A 22R has plenty
of power when it's all getting to the ground !
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:01:55 -0600
From: Brian Smillie
Subject: Spring Wrap
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:16:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: gfrancis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg S. Francis)
Subject: Spring Wrap
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
I've been reading posts refering to axle wrap w/ soft rear springs, and it
seems to be a big problem. I'm assuming it's a "you'll know it when it
happens" sort of phenomonon, but what are the symptoms? How does one know
that it is happening, and what, if anything, does it hurt?
Just curious,
- - -Greg
>>>>>I once had to deal with axel wrap first I noticed a speed wobble that I
thought were my BFG 35" muds untill one day my rear U-joint on my driveshaft
blew up. As a result of axel wrap.I ended up replacing the U-joint and
replacing my U-bolts. After only 6 months I reilized axel wrap was back. I
replaced the U-bolts with grade 8 U-bots custom made and put on Rancho
kicker shocks. I have nevery worried about it since and dont need to. You
can also get a bar to prevent axel wrap and this wont effect your
suspension, But I found it more expensive and not as nice looking. Hope this
is what you were looking for,
Derek Luymes
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 17 Apr 1997 10:48:14 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Track bar designs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 10:44 AM
OFFICE MEMO Track bar designs Date: 4/17/97
Locke Christman wrote:
>This is probably a dumb question, but what is a Heim joint and where can
>a common example be found?
Not dumb at all. Heim joints are also know as spherical rod ends.
They are similar to a tie rod end but instead of a studded ball that
swivels, they have a steel sphere with a hole in it. You place a bolt
thru the hole to attach it. There are other varieties of rod ends, but
this type is most common in the sizes we are interested in.
Heims aren't typically used in production cars and trucks because
they are expensive and do not last as long as typical tie rod ends.
The can be found on some farm and industrial machinery and are
often used in race car suspensions. Aftermarket four-link kits
use them and I am seeing more and more showing up on the steering
systems of trail vehicles.
You can buy them at most bearing supply houses, Grainger, Jeg's,
Summit, etc. They come in varying strengths in steel, chromoly,
etc.
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:45:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Albrecht
Subject: Track bar designs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>
> >This is probably a dumb question, but what is a Heim joint and where can
> >a common example be found?
There is a pretty good picture of them on that one red Chevy in four
wheeler. Um, page 82, May. Also, I heard that the guy spend $30,000 on
that front suspension, is that right??
Say that reminds me, I've been meaning to fill out that sheet for the top
truck challenge. I'm planning on putting in a vote for Glenn Wakefield
(from the offroad mailing list, number 59). Anybody else have any trucks
they want me to throw a vote in for?
__
Jonathan Albrecht
albr9619@uidaho.edu
http://www.uidaho.edu/~albr9619/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:51:16 EDT
From: denmother4wd@juno.com (Kimberley A Johnson)
Subject: Traction/Torque Rods...
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
In response to request on ladder bars...my husband made ours using a hyme
joint that he got at the local tractor/implement dealer, welding two
verical plates to rear diff, using the hyme joint, then running the rod
forward to center frame support, we run these on both our stock v-6, 5
speed, front & rear locked 88 4runner and on our highly modified 350 v-8,
automatic, front & rear locked 76 FJ40. of course the Cruiser has a
tendancy to produce horsepower that supports the need to control the axle
wrap, although we run trails that get the 4runner quite off camber and
climbing vertically, so we feel they are a real must.
BTW the joints are really inexpensive.
Remember it's what you build, not what you buy. TLCA Member #1794.
PNW4WDA mbr. Northern Toys 4WD Club & Rain Country Land Cruisers
Kim & Terry Johnson- DenMother4wd@juno.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 11 Jun 1997 16:16:13 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Track bar question
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:59 PM
OFFICE MEMO Track bar question Date: 6/11/97
Brian Gallus wrote:
Subject: Track bar question
>I was thinking about the rear spring ideas that people are implementing
>and their requisite for a track bar... Jack and Jay, maybe you can
>prove me wrong, but if I install a Marlin Crawler (just dreaming...) can
>I still mount the ladder type track bar to the cross member????? Will
>there be room?
I think so. The track bar actually mounts to the horsecollar (as Nick
calls it) crossmember, not the transfer case one.....is that what you
were thinking?
>If not, has anyone experimented with a 3 point kit (two
>under axle on u-bolt plate to the frame and one from top of pumpking to
>crossmember?????) on a 4Runner?
Did something similar. Made a set that ran over the axle on each
side and mounted to the sides of the frame rails. Problem is
that the twisting when the axle articulates was causing
breakage over time. The center (or near) mounted bar works
much better and doesn't have so much stress on it....and doesn't
limit travel as the side mounted bars did.
Jim Chott runs a fixed bar off the top of the pumpkin on his
4Runner. Works quite well for him though I believe he is
still running his overload bars with Downey springs which
keeps the packs more stable under acceleration. I think that
system would be too "loose" for me with my softer springs
and lack of overload bar.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 16 Jun 1997 10:21:12 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: track bar?
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:41 AM
OFFICE MEMO track bar? Date: 6/16/97
loki@crestedbutte.net wrote:
>Jay, or Jack sorry to ask you to repeat your self, but could you
>descibe the attachment at the axle/diff one more time.
I will try to put some more detailed photos up on my web page
next week.
>I checked Jay's awsome Home page but didnt quite figure it out.
Any thing I should know before I start welding on my pumkins,
I figure draining the fluid is neccesary.
Good idea. Since they are stamped steel, they weld very nicely.
Just go slow and let it cool periodically. There doesn't seem
to be much fear of it warping, but why take chances.
>also where does a guy go looking for a heim joint? does NAPA
sell them?
Probably not. They are also called spherical rod ends. Most speed
shops and Jeg's, etc. sells them. Grainger's carries them and so do
a lot of bearing supply houses.
>now to the front of the truck, what have you done with your
>torque bar?
Lengthened it, rod end on front end (for twist and adjustment),
stock rear bushing, quick-release pins both ends.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:28:26 -0700
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: Track Bar
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
>Jay, or Jack sorry to ask you to repeat your self, but could you
>descibe the attachment at the axle/diff one more time. I checked Jay's
>awsome Home page but didnt quite figure it out. Any thing I should know
>before I start welding on my pumkins, I figure draining the fluid is
>neccesary. also where does a guy go looking for a heim joint? does NAPA
>sell them? now to the front of the truck, what have you done with your
>torque bar? Thank you for all the help. Rob Boyle 85 4runner
I recently had the track bar from 'Rocky Mountain Offroad' installed.
It has a heim at one end , and a shock-type bushing at the other. The
guy who welded it , couldn't figure out how to weld the heim-end, like
the instructions said to, to the x-member without removing the gas tank.
He ended up modifying the bracketry a bit, and flipped the bar around.
The heim is now welded at the x-member end, rather than on the pumpkin.
We couldn't see how this would cause any problems. Draining the fluid
is not necessary, it might even help absorb the heat from welding,
like a heat sink in soldering. Been on the Rubicon with it, no problems.
Cost around $150, plus installation.
##################################################################
Rick Murray stock 22R motor ; 3" ProComp Lift
84 Toyota 4Runner SR5 33" BFG M/Ts ; 4.88 gears
Rancho Cordova, Ca. Rancho 9000's ; on-board air
http://www.gvn.net/~rmurray/ Marlin TCase #67 ; TRD LSD
##################################################################
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:15:06 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Traction Bars
To: Toy 4x4 List
OK...I need traction bars. I'd love to do some really cool custom dealy
like a few of you guys on the list have but, I start classes in two
day. That means no time to have custom work done, and no more big pay
checks either.
I've thought about it, and I want the traction bars for driving around
on pavement only. I'll just remove the bars when I'm heading to the
trail. That way wheel travel restriction won't be such a huge
importance, and a bar that is on the market already should do fine.
So, my question is "Which bar is better?" Remember I'm ONLY concerned
with on-road performance, since they'll be coming off for the trail.
I've seen two types. The first one is in NWOR's catologe (Yes I hate
NWOR, but I have a credit I need to spend there), on page 81. The type
that attaches to the front spring hanger, and also under the U-bolts on
top of the spring pack. NWOR $119
The second type is like the Rancho traction bars. Perf. Prod. $280
I prefer the NWOR style because they wont' be so darn noticeable, and
the price is right too. Will they perform as well as the Rancho style?
All suggestions & experience stories welcome.
Scott
- --
_____
/_/_|_\__ Scott Wilson TLCA #5261
| _ _ : 88 4Runner SR5 V6
*/_\---/_\' Santa Clara, CA
(_) (_) http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:57:50 -0400
From: "NUNES, ROB"
Subject: Traction Bars
To: "'Toy4x4@tlca.org'"
The Rancho bars are awesome. I run a pair on my '86 w/ 4" lift. They
cured a vibrations that the truck had and eliminated the nasty axle hop.
You can disconnect them in minutes. Just unbolt two bolts from each bar
and the bar drops right out.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:03:25 -0500
From: Ed.Wong@astramerck.com
Subject: Rancho Traction Bars
To: jeff4cars@juno.com, toy4x4@tlca.org
Jeff w/ Q's about Rancho Traction bars.
I have 'em on a 89 Gen1 4Runner.
You get a "bracket" that you bolt to the frame, and you get a "new"
spring plate - aka the plate that goes UNDER the axle and retains the
u-bolt nuts as well as having the lowe shock mount.
The new Rancho plate has provisions for dual shocks (but does not come
with the upper mount kit for the second shock). It uses a hole and
a bolt to retain the shock.
IMHO - WELD the bolt into the mounting plate - I used the "inner"
position hole to retain the stock mounting point. If you just use
the bolt and use a high pressure gas shock (aka bilstiens)
you will get rattles and stuff - most annoying - although it never did
break.... I used a grade 8 bolt when re-welding the bolt into the
"egged" out bolt hole.
The other bracket "bolts" to the frame rails - since you
position it on *your* truck w/ weight on it - it will
*custom* fit whatever you have on your truck.
There are 4 bolt holes to drill - two on the bottom and two on
the "side". One of the side bolts can "usually" re-use an
existing hole in the frame. The other is impossible to drill unless
you have a right angle drill and a "stubby" bit - or a body lift.
I put mine in w/ 3 holes and its been "ok"
Note that this is NOT the trick setup for rock crawling - the
bars hang below the axles - and therefore reduce ground clearance.
The bars also act a bit like sway bars and really do limit twist
ability - I ball park mine as about 6 in of total diff between
left and right tires (I had the springs disconnected too when I
measured that - I was putting in urathane bushings in the springs)
Lube the stuff up real good - although here on the rust coast -
Im not sure how much that may help.
I have the rancho bars - and unless the lift is homongus,
the bars a long enuf to reach past the spring bolt part of the
frame - so it should fit w/ your nerf bars - On my truck w/ 1-1.5
in of lift in the rear - the bars reach well past the start of the
door!
They DO increase braking effort at the rear of the truck - but reduce the
ability of the rear axle to "tuck under" - therfore the overall
effect is to increase rear braking effort w/o increasing the tendency to
over steer (aka spin out). I do NOT believe that this effect holds true
for the slip joint / center mounted style (aka Jay Kopynski's (sp)
setup)
Also - watch out for the "lo-ball" prices on these - you need TWO kits to
install these - the bars and the bracket kit. I recall that the
whole shebang is like $200-$300!
EWong
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:21:15 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: LOTS of questions
DRM033 wrote:
>1.) For those who have used a Jay K. or similar 2 link torque bar in the rear,
>what did you use for the "shackle"?
Dunno if you wanted to hear from me, but here goes........
The one currently on my truck was made from a set of Chevy 2WD shackles
I had lying around. I modifed them to make them work. The one I built for
Sam's '80 truck was made from 1 1/2" or maybe 2" x 1/4" flat bar with a
center bar welded in. An old spring eye cut off and welded to some appropriate
bracket works well along with regular poly spring bushings to complete the
mount. I am about to build a revised one and I will again build a similar plate
shackle.
>Did you attach the shackle to the crossmember offset like the rear mount on
the axle?
Yes, the bars I have done run very close to parallel to the frame rails so
that both the front and rear mounts are offset from center.
>When welding to the axle,
>should I remove the diff, of is it better to weld to the axle with the fluid
>insode to dissipate heat (then drain it after)?
I have done all my welding with the dif and axles removed, but it may be ok
with those installed if you go fairly slow and replace the fluid when you're
done......but....I'm only guessing.....I have no experience with doing it that way.
Hope this helps.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
-----------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 18:47:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Burk
Subject: RE: Track Bar
Toyota Tony wrote:
>Kevin, isn't this the setup Jay used on his truck? And why do you need
a three link. Unless you are going to put shackles on each end of the
springs the two link will work fine.
Well not really. I can't speak for Jay K. as I only know what I have
seen from his pictures. It looks like his track bar has two mounts on
the axle that join to form one mount at a shackle that attaches to the
crossmember. What my idea was, is to have two completly seperate
links. Both are attached too the axle and the crossmember, but not
each other. Why I would do two links over Jay K's idea, I don't know.
It was just another idea, besides the fact that I allready have half
of it built. I would actually prefer not to have to build it even
though I might enjoy doing it, except for the fact that I have some
major spring wrap at times. I run a detroit locker in back and even
without it there is still some pretty good spring wrap. I don't know
why my truck would do this any more than anyone else's, unless I am
just more picky(probobly). Just a thought thats all.
Thanks,
Kev
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:11:19 -0700
From: "Brandon Miller"
Subject: Re: Track Bar
what would be the disadvantage of running two bars with heims at both ends,
one end on or near the frame (on each side) and the other to the top of the
diff?
Saw a jeep ramping over 1500 today with reverse leafs with a set up like
that.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/\/\
Brandon Miller ICQ# 8392888
------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:40:26 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Track Bar
"Brandon Miller" wrote:
>what would be the disadvantage of running two bars with heims at both ends,
>one end on or near the frame (on each side) and the other to the top of the
>diff?
First, heims at both ends gets to be very noisy with metal on metal, and
heims wear quickly when used like this. The setup you describe will
only control lateral axle movement. It will not control axle wrap if each
bar is attached and swivels at a single point on the axle. Also, This is
hard to do because of where the gas tank sits. I think it would require you
to hang the frame mounts fairly low.
>Saw a jeep ramping over 1500 today with reverse leafs with a set up like
>that.
Yes, but note where the Jeep gas tank sits.........
Lots of good track bar discussion going around :-)
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:35:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Burk
Subject: RE: Track Bar
Brandon Miller wrote:
>what would be the disadvantage of running two bars with heims at both
ends, one end on or near the frame (on each side) and the other to the top of
the diff?
Saw a jeep ramping over 1500 today with reverse leafs with a set up like
that.
If you are talking about a three link setup (two links attached the
ends of the axle tube at the wheels, and one attached at the top of
the diff), absolutly nothing is wrong with it. Quite a cool setup
actually. My only reservation is that because of the gas tank on the
pass-side you have to mount the links below the frame. Because of
that you then have to make the link low enough to be able to clear the
spring mount on full compression. That makes me wonder how easy it
would be to get them hung up on rocks. Also it would seem that the
optimal place to mount them on the axle tubes is right at the spring
plate. It is easiest if you flip the U-bolts, but then you are still
mounting them on the bottom of the axle tube which decreases ground
clearence. I know that there are a lot of custom rock buggie deals
out there that use these systems for custom suspensions and they seem
not to have a problem. So maybe it is not such a problem as I think
it is.
OK, I'm done rambling.
Thanks,
Kev
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:22:01 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Re: Track Bar
>seem to me that a little give is well within the capabilities of the
> springs.....plenty of people run long travel front suspensions with
the
> torque rod in place. If there is a little difference in the arc would
it
> really matter, the springs can handle a little forced wrap cant they.
> To sum it up, if one rod works on the front why wouldn't it work on
> the back.
The front torque rod is in place to control spring warp under brakes
relative to the steering rod not wheel hop. Any fixed link between the
axle and frame will restrict Travel and or Articulation with semi
elliptic springs. The reason is the link will travel through a set arc
while the axle will travel through variable arc. Same reason why the
axle moves back under compression. Yes, this force is taken up by the
spring and causes the spring to warp but also cause a loss in
travel/articulation and premature failure in the spring. This is why the
drivers front spring (on solids) fails before the passenger spring. Also
a single rod on the rear from the pumpkin to the frame is putting a lot
of stress on the axle tubes. A better way is two links from near the
ubolts to the fame centre. If you are using semi elliptic spring
(shackle on one end) you will still encounter all these problems but
load up the axle tubes. If the link is only to control axle wrap you can
change the fame mount to use a shackle to take up the length changes
such as Jay uses. A better all round solution is to go full elliptic
(shackles on both ends) and use the links to locate the axle.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:23:20 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Longer spring combinations
Here are some longer spring combinations in order of most Articulation
to Least
5inch lift Full Elliptic
Front- J10/J20 3in lift Front Springs
Rear - XJ 3in lift rear springs
5inch lift Semi Elliptic front, Full elliptic Back
Front- J10/J20 3in lift Front Springs 2 inch longer shackles
Rear - XJ 3in lift rear springs
5inch lift Semi Elliptic
Front- J10/J20 3in lift Front Springs 2 inch longer shackles
Rear - XJ 3in lift rear springs as per Mazda swap and 1 inch longer
shackle
3inch lifts can be gained by removing a leaf from the above springs. 2
Inch Lifts can be done with the above spring in J**p stock height. The
springs in question are rancho Parts RS44044 (Front) and RS44148 (Rear).
The 5in Full elliptic is close to the suspension on TonkaTuf2 but I now
run Custom made springs with more lift. Also the Mazda spring can be
used in the rear. If anyone needs details on the combinations I will
post them. A 2-3 inch full elliptic setup will have more articulation
than the 5 inch semi elliptic setup
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:59:01 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Track Bar
>what would be the disadvantage of running two bars with heims at
>both ends,one end on or near the frame (on each side) and the other
>to the top of the diff?
Jack Alford Wrote
>Well, the biggest disadvantage to me is the loss of ground clearance
> as the links on a Toy truck would have to be so long ... Look at a
> 4Runner, the links
The link rods don't have to be straight. My Vlink rods are bent to clear
the 2 fuel tanks on either side of the drive shaft. Also I cut a section
out of the tank the rod goes up into. That was a result of more travel
added later on. Another way is to add a 2-3 inch body lift and relocate
the tank up 2 inch. This will allow the rod to sit under the tank.
Jay Kopycinski Wrote
>This is essentially what James does with his v-link though his is a
> beefier design. If you're gonna go this route you'd better make sure
> it's plenty strong. James' design does this well.
The difference is the point on the v is at the axle on this setup and
mine its on the Tcase crossmember. The real problem is the axle moving
back under compression. While Lays' link is and ideal solution for
controlling wrap up. An improvement would use helm joints at the shackle
and axle to remove binding. However with low gears , big tyres and
lockers ect. You run the risk of snapping an axle housing. This can be
solved with some bracing of the axle (fill in the line from the top of
the pumpkin to the spring pads above and below the tubes).
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
------------------------------
Back to the top of this thread
Back to the top of the Suspension Threads Group
Back to the top of the Technical Discussion Groups
Back to the top of the Toy Thread Tree