Crossover Steering Conversion
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:30:21 +0000
From: "Mike Williams"
Subject: convert to cross-over steering
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On 17 Apr 97, Jack Alford wrote:
..........
> The answer to your problem is to lengthen the rod and preferably put
> a heim on the axle end of the rod or convert to cross-over steering,
> which does not suffer from the same malodies as stock Toyota solid
> axle steering.
Jack, I am glad that you brought the subject of cross-over steering
up. We (most readers) know that you recently converted to a
cross-over steering system on you truck and have completed a 3000+
mile road and rock crawling test on the system. When you get the
time could you briefly give us the pros/ cons of the conversion and a
brief run down of the conversion (if you changed steering knuckle
arms, mods to the pitman arm, tie-rod mods etc.).
I am tired of fighting bumpsteer and feel that the "touted" method of
moving the ball stud to the top of the steering knuckle arm to
correct this problem does nothing but waste money.
Mike Williams
======+++++++++++++======
mwill@ctos.com
===++++++++++++++===
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:59:38 -0500
From: Jack Alford
Subject: convert to cross-over steering
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Mike Williams wrote:
Well, I'll tell you how I did it. After weighing all the options and Jay,
Sam Houston, myself and several others discussing all the possible
methods to convert to cross-over steering and actually trying to implement
a few of them (it just seemed like I wasted some money on parts I couldn't
return, someone tells me this is r&d, still feels like I wasted money to
me)
Anyways, I ended up mounting the IFS steering box back up that was
originally on my truck back up (as some of you may know, my truck
originally has IFS). The IFS frame horns are a bit different in the
front but it looks like it wouldn't be a problem to do to a (factory)
solid axle truck.
I spent most all of my r&d dollars trying to find a power steering box
that was almost identicial to the TOYOTA IFS box but had it's sector
shaft running down the inside of the frame rail instead of the outside
of the frame rail like the Toy one does (to keep the draglink from running
between the springs and frame). After trying several boxes and looking at
every 4x4 known to man's steering box. I thought I had found the perfect
box, an Isuzu Trooper has a box that was just like the IFS box but had
it's output to the inside of the frame. This box was most likely even
made by the same company that the IFS one was as the power steering
hose fittings were the same size. But there was a catch, you knew there
had to be a catch didn't you?, the Isuzu had a pitman arm about 4" long
compared to the 6.25" pitman of the IFS box. This would make steering,
even with power steering a work out, I imagine the steering would have
been like 10 turns lock to lock with that boxes short pitman. Not to
mention that it's pitman was PUNY ! That pitman did possess one quality
that the IFS pitman did not, it had a tapered hole to accept a tie rod
end compared to the IFS pitman which had a male rod end built into it.
I tried to put the IFS pitman on the Isuzu box but the spline count was
different. Oh yeah, before someone asks, I didn't use a Saginaw box like
most every other 4x4 on the planet with cross over steering is because the
lower radiator hose on my 4 cyl. is too close to the frame rail to permit
a Saginaw boxes use.
So, I ended up using the IFS steering box/pitman, cutting down a piece of
the IFS relay rod with the tapered hole in it and having a friend with
a lathe turn a set of 11/16-16 threads on it and I cut down a spare toy
tie rod that I had and used the left hand threaded end of it to screw in a
pass. side tie rod end and threaded the other end of the tie rod
to match the 11/16-16 that I had turned onto the relay rod piece and used
it as my draglink. The pass. side tie rod end dropped into the tapered
hole of a Fabtech FJ40 LandCruiser spring-over steering arm (Fabtech
makes these because a lot of cruiser swap there drum braked Land Cruiser
knuckles to mini-truck knuckles for the disc brakes) This was quite
a costly piece and I researched all the cheaper options before deciding
on going with this piece.
To the best of my know the JKR IFS Swap kit uses a modified pass. side
tie rod end (from the pic. it looks much similar to a later FJ40 pass.
side tie rod end) that has a tapered hole in it to accept a tie rod end.
I've heard of others using a toy drivers side tie rod end to facilitate
the mating of the draglink/tie rod but to that piece was not designed to
take that kind of stress and having a steering part that was strong enough
for me to have faith to drive the truck going 70-75 mph meant alot to me.
Not to mention that having the draglink mate with the tie rod causes the
draglink to have an incredible angle on it which in turn causes lots of
bumpsteer, which I can't see the JKR kit not causing if the truck had much
lift.
I'm quite happy with my setup, though I do need to fabricate a new
draglink, the stock toy tie rod turned out not to be up to the forces
of being a draglink, which turned out to be exponentially greater than
that of the tie rod. I can lock the brakes (Yes, I can lock the brakes,
my new vented rotors are SUPER!) and hold the wheel with one finger and
it tracks straight and true. It's a pleasure to drive on the trail as
the wheel isn't jerking to and fro like it was before.
I believe the JKR kit does take the IFS pitman and somehow taper drill it
to accept a stock toy tie rod end, which I may look into doing should
the tie rod 'built' into my IFS pitman ever wear out.
Drawbacks, the double armed Fabtech steering arm puts the draglink alot
higher than I expected it would have, though even with all my wheel travel
I don't believe it ever touched the underside of the frame rail on the
pass. side though I do believe the possibility is there. The draglink
is nearly horizontal which is the 'ideal' position for a draglink.
Another drawback is the steering ratio, I believe I counted it to
be about 4.75 turns lock to lock, which is quite slow. It makes for
steering on the road to be a bit of a chore, but you get used to it.
It's just your normal lean of the road steering correction would take
about a 1/4" more turn of the wheel than it normally would. This is
caused by the IFS pitman being a bit short, in comparison with the
length of the knuckles, about 3/4" I'd guess...
While in Moab, Jay and I took alot of measurements off of my truck and
tried to see if this same setup would work on his truck but we both felt
that the much longer and larger oil pan of his 4.3L V6 would prohibit
this setup working on a truck with a V6 like his.
Well, there it is, in the period of 15 mins. I've told you what it
took me 3-4 months to figure out and implement ... The method I chose
to implement was not the cheapest nor the least labor intensive but
was the safest and best way I found. Afterall, this is the steering of
the truck, and with the brakes running a close second is the MOST
important part of the truck. Not something I wanted to worry about
driving 75 mph down the road ....
>I am tired of fighting bumpsteer and feel that the "touted" method of
>moving the ball stud to the top of the steering knuckle arm to
>correct this problem does nothing but waste money.
In *MY* opinion, flipping the ball is a good method of lessening the
angle of the draglink on a lifted truck but for wheeling, in *MY* mind
at least, it seems the ball being on the top means that the little 'cups'
that hold that ball have less of an angle to rotate through before they
bind and start to cantilever the arm and subsequently break it. Not to
mention that almost everyone I've ever talked with who's had a flipped
ball steering arm has had the ball come off on them if it lasted any
length of time.
I'm going to detail this out on a page at Off-Road.com when I get my pics
back from Moab that have some shots of the steering.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!
jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/
Decatur, AL
'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT
Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's
SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers
------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:48:59 +0000
From: "Mike Williams"
Subject: Billet steering arm
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
On 7 Aug 97, Tony Bartlett wrote:
.......
> I would like to take a poll on how many people would be interested in a
> billet steering arm if a machine shop would be interested and if the
> price would be OK. ................... I would hope
> somewhere between $200-$500. If over $500 I do not think it would be to
> reasonable.
From my experiences, this type of project (machined from billet) will
definitely push the $500.00 limit, but remember the dealer wants
about $265.00 for a new steering knuckle arm.
> Possible modify it slightly over stock. Ideas, move the attachment
> point for the tie rod inward slightly to help with offset wheel
> clearances.
Remember that the knuckle arm on the passenger's side will have to be
modified also along with the attachment points for the front brake
lines. Only, after all of these areas are modified can wheels with a
different offset be installed (and the different offset could cause
other unseen problems).
> Also move the attachment point for the drag link up
> slightly, and possibly at a slight upward angle.
> Give me some ideas on mods and if you think it would be a good idea or
> not to research this.
From my experience, some front steering component changes adversely
effect the solid axle's steering ability. With a lift, the s-shaped
draglink is often used, but I have found this to induce a small bit
of bumpsteer. With a higher lift, a modified steering arm (ball
stud on top) is used and does induce quite a bit of bumpsteer when
used with the s-shaped draglink. *My truck does not have power
steering, and someone with power steering may experience different
results.
Tony not that a better steering arm cannot be built, but IMHO the
best way to go is the crossover steering that Jack is perfecting.
Not to speak for Jack, but as I understand his setup eliminates
bumpsteer, the torque rod, and binding of the steering arm. Look
into the archives for a discussion on this thread, maybe it will
provide you with another train of thought.
Either way let us know what you do.
- ----mwill@ctos.com----
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Mike Williams*
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Date: 7 Aug 1997 09:12:37 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Billet steering arm
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:39 AM
OFFICE MEMO Billet steering arm Date: 8/7/97
Tony, I'm not sure if you're talking about a driver side steering
arm or a steering arm for the passenger side for crossover
steering.
I would not be interested in pursuing a driver side steering arm
to use the current steering setup. The problem is that the draglink
on this system is just too short for a long travel suspension setup.
Also, moving the axle forward compounds the problem by shortening
the draglink further. Bumpsteer is not too bad because the draglink
and spring travel along similar arcs, but a well designed crossover
steering setup would be the way to go (IMHO).
If you're talking about making a billet paasenger side steering arm
for crossover steering.......then I would be interested.....to the tune
of maybe $250-300.
The Fabtech LC arm is nice but leaves the tie rod a little higher over
the springs than necessary. Also, Jack has determined that I can't
use that setup in combination with the oil pan of my V6.
I have seen a few trucks that used the stock passenger side arm and
add a second arm (stacked) on top of that one. Looks like they use
the stock hole for a tie rod connection. For the draglink connection,
they use a LC tie rod end that has the draglink hole in it.
Still running front end limit straps until I can come up with a
better steering system. Maybe someday my suspension will be free.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '85 4Runner
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '91 4Runner
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:49:16 -0700
From: Nick Krest
Subject: Billet steering arm
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
A high-strength arm would be a welcome addition on 'ol blue. I don't know
if billet is the answer, certainly not billet aluminum. From my limited
knowledge of metallurgy, I would imagine a forged steel arm would be
strongest. Ed Wong, where are you?
- Nick
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Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 17:33:09 -0400
From: Ed Ruf
Subject: Billet steering arm
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Well, I'm another Ed, but I think this is just a rhetorical question
at this point. A forging would be way beyond the $$ means of most
unless done in quantity given the tooling costs. Now a billet may be
machined out of any one piece of material one might choose, steel,
Al,Ti, etc. You pays your money and takes your choice.
FWIW, these days there may be another solution, casting. There is a
new process used by Soligen ( http://www.soligen.com ) that uses 3D
printing technology licensed from MIT to "print" a casting mold
directly from a 3D solid model CAD file. They have a service for
rapid prototyping such parts. At this point though I have no feel of
the cost vs conventional machining methods.
Ed
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Date: 7 Aug 1997 16:16:25 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Billet steering arm
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 3:48 PM
OFFICE MEMO Billet steering arm Date: 8/7/97
"Mike Williams" wrote:
snip
>From my experience, some front steering component changes adversely
>effect the solid axle's steering ability. With a lift, the s-shaped
>draglink is often used, but I have found this to induce a small bit
>of bumpsteer.
Swapping from the stock (straight) draglink to an aftermarket (s)
draglink should not really affect the amount of bumpsteer, unless
I'm missing something. It will provide greater u-bolt clearance
and restore the full turning radius to the right.
>With a higher lift, a modified steering arm (ball
>stud on top) is used and does induce quite a bit of bumpsteer when
>used with the s-shaped draglink.
Yes, I think this is because you've gone the other way over the neutral
point and since you most likely travel into compression while driving
on the street, this would push the front axle to bumpsteer.
>Tony not that a better steering arm cannot be built, but IMHO the
>best way to go is the crossover steering that Jack is perfecting.
I agree.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '85 4Runner
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '91 4Runner
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
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Date: 11 Aug 1997 10:10:40 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Billet steering arm
To: "DAVE SCHOENBERG" , Toy4x4@tlca.org
Reply to: RE>>Billet steering arm
DAVE SCHOENBERG wrote:
>Sorry, guys, I hate to be dumb. What is crossover steering??
Live axle Toys use a steering box with a Pitman arm that moves
in a vertical plane., The draglink is short, runs perpendicular to
the axle, and is connected to the driver side knuckle (steering
arm).
Most domestic (not all) live axle vehicles use crossover steering
where the Pitman arm moves in a horizontal plane. The draglink
is longer and runs parallel to the axle. The draglink connects to
a steering arm on the pasenger side knuckle.
The two systems work well at stock height, but once lift is
added things change.
When you add lift to a crossover steering system, the draglink
then sits at an angle causing bumpsteer. When you hit a bump,
the effective length of the draglink changes due to the angle
it works thru. This causes the front tires to twitch or bump-
steer. The solution is usually to add a dropped Pitman arm
to bring the draglink back parallel to the axle (ground).
On the Toy live axle system, some bumpsteer is introduced
when lift is added, but it is not very significant. The Toy
system is designed so the axle (via the leaf springs) and the
draglink follow similar arcs of travel. The problem with
this system is that you run out of draglink joint travel
when the front suspension is setup for extreme travel.
This puts the draglink joints in bind and you risk breaking
the steering arm......thus the allure of crossover steering
for an extreme travel front end.
The Toy IFS system has both the steering box and linkages
(idler) mounted to the frame, so the above problems do
not exist for this system.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '85 4Runner
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '91 4Runner
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:46:31 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Billet steering arm
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Thanks everybody for their inputs about the steering arm. At the time I
was talking about the drivers side arm.
In my opinion I do not have enough bump steer to warrant a crossover
steering conversion. But if I break another steering arm I will start
looking into doing a conversion over winter.
I have looked at different steering boxes and in my opinion the Toyota
IFS looks like the best one to use without lots of modifications.
Jack talked about extending the front end to lengthen the spring to fit
a Saginaw box in his Ultimate Toy.
If I really start looking into a crossover conversion I will look into
this and talk with some machine shops about steering arms using the IFS
box.
Sounds like Jacks only complaint is the passenger side(modified) arm is
a little high where the drag link hooks (and possibly the drag link end
that needs to be used).
Some people would like the drag link above the springs to help with
preventing damage and clearance. I can only think of one time I hit my
drag link (or it bent under pressure), and with the NWOR drag link I
have not had any problems since.
My problem is the steering arm. Once I install my Rancho 9012's I will
probably start running into more problems with this system. Possibly
pulling out the ball (modified arm with ball on top) or if my bump stops
have problems smashing the arm/drag ling point into my frame.
During my Rubicon run I started having a very weird steering problem.
Turning left I would be at a full turn (I even noticed my pitman arm was
at it stop) and my tire was pointing straight. (at this time I also
notice my torque rod mount was broke off the axle). This leads me to
believe that I either have axle wrap or something is going wrong with my
drag link end at the steering arm. This link end looked loose. I
tightend it up and lubed it and the problem went away a little and now I
think it is back. It just happens when trying to turn left with great
pressure on the tires. Hopefully down in Moab I will run into this
problem again and get a better look at the above mentioned items to see
if I can narrow down this problem.
Thanks for listening.
Tony.
------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:53:07 -0800
From: "wg"
Subject: crossover steering
To:
Hi Brandon!
This is some info that you might find helpful for doing
crossover steering.
For pictures go to :
http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/features/1997/02/index.html
For the steering arm your going to need go to:
http://www.shopokanagan.com/fabtech/
I've just been lucky enuff to look at the steering arm from
Fabtech....very nice looking piece...just be forewarned
that the guys at Fabtech are not the easiest going bunch!
They are from Kelowna, BC Canada. If you need any help
just contact me.
For the rest of the parts ... talk to your favorite parts man
and get a Moog parts catalog!
You mentioned that Marlin had just done the crossover steering?
Did you see what he did? Pass on any info that you get!
Wil
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Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:59:07 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: crossover steering
To: Toy4x4
OK, I talked to Marlin about his steering.
Here is the scoop.
First, if you look at an IFS Box it is mounted with 3 bolts through the
frame.
Marlin drilled two 1" diameter holes in his frame and cut some 1" thick
wall tubing to fit and welded them in, with a 1/4" thick piece of plate
steel on the inside of the frame between the two holes for strength.
The third hole is mounted above the frame so he welded the 1" tubing to
the frame (he might have made a spacer to mount off the frame I do not
know.
He then pressed out the ball on the pitman arm, drilled out the hole to
the size of the larger end (hole is tappered), and made a sleeve to fit
and tig welded it in.
On the passenger side he cut off an extra arm and flipped it and welded
it on to his stock arm.
Now the Fabtech or Aqualu arms are probably better but much more
expensive ($225).
He ended up using Hiem joints on each end because it was much cheaper
for the more common right and left thread taps needed to make the drag
link.
When placing the box to mount he moved it forward as far as he could (up
to the radiator). He also installed the box at the same angle it was
while in the IFS vehicle (do not know if that matters much).
He says he loves it. It is easier to turn, and more responsive.
He is in New Mexico this weekend for some wheeling. If everything holds
up for him I will be ordering stuff to install crossover in my truck
next week.
Toyota Tony
http://www.digitalpla.net/~offroader
offroader@digitalpla.net
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Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:18:04 -0800
From: "Vic & Lorelei"
Subject: crossover steering
To: "Toy4x4 List"
There is another place here that says they will beat all the prices that
Fabtech advertises. It is called,
Aqualu Industries INC.
Phone# Is 1-250 765-6714
3251A Sexsmith RD
Kelowna B.C.Canada
Fax 1-250-765-6704
They specialize in complete LC tubs , fenders, V8 kits for LC (Very nice kit
for the LC. I have used 2 of theres now) I have been very happy with there
service as well. They are super people to deal with.
Hope this is some help.
Vic
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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:58:00 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: crossover steering
To:
>He then pressed out the ball on the pitman arm, drilled out the hole to
>the size of the larger end (hole is tappered), and made a sleeve to fit
>and tig welded it in.
There are quite a few other alternatives for pitman arms. Not my personal
preference but Danny Warden will make you a pitman arm with any
spline size, drop, and any size tapered hole in the end for $125 I think it
was I heard. Search for Joe Melhorn's cruiser on the web and you'll see both
Danny Warden's pitman arm and a shot of a welded together steering
arm like you describe.
>On the passenger side he cut off an extra arm and flipped it and welded
>it on to his stock arm.
>Now the Fabtech or Aqualu arms are probably better but much more
>expensive ($225).
Is your life or trail side repair possibly worth what you'd save over buying
the Aqualu or Fabtech arm ... I'd imagine that Marlin is going to probably
charge you a pretty nice penny for his welded together parts which are in my
opinion of questionable and unknown strength, which is why I have a Fabtech
arm,
it's a massive piece of 4130 cast steel and my pitman arm hasn't been
welded on ... next to the brakes, the steering is the most important part on
the truck !
Why not build it as best you can .... not to say that Marlin's method
doesn't work or that Land Cruiser guys haven't been doing this for quite
some time
with varying degrees of success but he could have done better considering his
resources ....
- jack
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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:11:52 -0000
From: runars@isbank.is
Subject: crossover steering
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Well, welding steering arms and rods, or bending them is simply illegal
up here. Guess that says a lot. It does to me at least.
Not that welded parts need to be any weaker, but the change is higher
that they are malformed.
Runar.
-------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:54:34 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Fabtech, Aquala steering arm
To: Toy4x4
Jack or Jay, on these arms what direction does the drag link end bolt
through (castle nut on the top or bottom)
Also Jack, what did you use again for your drag link and what ends are
on it.
On the arm is there enough room to use a reamer if I used bigger ends on
my drag link.
Possibly using 3/4 ton Chevy tie rod ends.
Talking with Marlin we are looking at these options.
Using 3/4 ton right hand thread tie rod ends- taper is from .776 to .675
Using Hiem joints (but they wear fast)
Using Toyota truck tie rod ends, cutting the left side after the hole
for the steering stabilizer and
rethreading.
Using FJ-80 ends, same as truck ends but they use a 23mm thread.
Tony
http://www.digitalpla.net/~offroader
offroader@digitalpla.net
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:21:48 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Fabtech, Aquala steering arm
To: Toyota 4x4 List
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>Jack or Jay, on these arms what direction does the drag link end bolt
>through (castle nut on the top or bottom)
Nut on bottom.
>Using Hiem joints (but they wear fast)
Yes, heims are not really made for dirty environments, so you would have
to replace them periodically as the joint wears and loosens.
>Using Toyota truck tie rod ends, cutting the left side after the hole
>for the steering stabilizer and rethreading.
>
>Using FJ-80 ends, same as truck ends but they use a 23mm thread.
Yeah, there's pretty much infinite possibilities, just depends on your
tooling capabilities and how you want to setup your spares.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:54:07 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: Fabtech, Aquala steering arm
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>Jack or Jay, on these arms what direction does the drag link end bolt
>through (castle nut on the top or bottom)
Can't speak for Jay but my castle nut is on the bottom ...
>Also Jack, what did you use again for your drag link and what ends are
>on it.
I'm currently using a piece of old toyota tie rod with a piece of 1x1x1/4"
angle welded to it but have a piece of 1-1/8" x .250 wall'd seamless tube
that I'm about to switch to.
>On the arm is there enough room to use a reamer if I used bigger ends on
>my drag link.
>Possibly using 3/4 ton Chevy tie rod ends.
>Talking with Marlin we are looking at these options.
We ??
I spoke with Marlin yesterday about my tcase and he said you had
called him and told him what I said .... personally, I'd go with some
common tie rod ends with an SAE thread and taper on them so that
taps would be cheap, metric taps are quite expensive and left handed
ones are nearly impossible to find and 3-4 times more expensive than
a right hand ones, which might not matter to you if you have someone
else doing this for you (i.e. Marlin) ... I'd stay away from the 3/4 ton tie
rod ends, I don't know about you but I'd rather break a $25 tie rod end
before my $300 steering arm ... I've got no money trees in my yard.
- jack
------------------------------
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Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:37:40 -0800
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: Fabtech, Aquala steering arm
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
I'm gonna do mine next weekend. Cutting off an ifs tie rod end for the top
and an early tie rod end for the bottom. Not making it adjustable, welding
on a nice hefty rod and if I have problems I'll do something else in the
future. Just about every chevota/saginaw cruiser I see has the welded arm
method with the triangle piece of 1/8th" steel plate between the arms so
that is what I am going to do, no high dollar arm here...
My only question is mounting the box and the connection to the column,
haven't looked to see if they use the same spline and to see if I can mount
it in the same spot or if I'll have to modify mine. Hoping to be a half day
jobber, next Saturday.
Anyone want to buy a drop drag link and a steering arm ;)
------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:52:31 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: crossover steering
To: Jay Kopycinski , Toy4x4
OK, now my plans look like this.
I will be using an IFS steering box with a FJ-60 pitman arm.
I will be trying the steering arm from Aqualu (Jay, it is the one you
returned)
I am going to find out if it is strong enough or not. (I will have to
make sure I carry some type of spare for this test)
The arm for the tie rod has the correct taper for the toy tie rod end.
The arm for the drag link is made for a fj-40 but their widest part on
the taper is .550" The toy smallest is .575" so I will be tapering it
so the drag link end goes up through the bottom (for frame clearance.
I plan on just using toy tie rod ends. Possibly using FJ-80 ends. The
taper is the same but the thread diameter is 23mm.
The reason for this is you can do it all with nothing welded.
By the way Jay, did you decide to go with the arm from Fabtech. If so
how do you like it.
I know Jack is using one, or he was.
Should be done prior to Easter Safari in Moab.
Tony
http://www.digitalpla.net/~offroader
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:49:43 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Crossover Steering
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
After the discussion on Steering/Torque Rod , Spring hangers, longer
springs ect I sat down and did some computer modelling on the subject. I
have come up with a couple of solutions first a double pivot shackle for
the stock mount and a twin shackle solution. The double shackle
increases up and down travel without altering springs, adds M-= in lift.
With additional length allows you to do the longer spring conversion
without moving the stock mounts. The twin shackle model is really cool
as it solves the diff skewing under articulation and combined with a
crossover steering using a double pivot almost eliminates bump steer
entirely. Another benefit as the axle is not skewing under articulation
clearance problems with oversize tyres under full lock on the 3rd gen
body style are no longer an issue till you go past 21in wide. For double
pivot crossover steering instead of linking the steering box to the
steering arm directly you link it a pivot pint opposite chassis rail.
This mount is dropped on relation to the pitman arm. From the pivot you
link to the steering arm. By doing this you remove a lot of bump steer
due to the arc of the steering linkage. In doing a double shackle
(shackles on both ends) you need to have a linkage to keep the axle in
line, ie not collapsing a shackle. To do this you form a V link to
locate the axle as far rearward as possible. An ideal location is the
Tcase crossmember, but a new unit will need to be fabricated and braces
to the chassis will need to be installed to distribute the loads. As
soon as I get a chance I am going to put a Twin shackle setup with a
double pivot shackle on one end on TonkaTuf2 (Front and Rear). I ordered
longer springs yesterday to do the job, will have it up and running in
about a week.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:23:38 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Crossover Steering
To: Toyota 4x4 List
"james stevenson" wrote:
>After the discussion on Steering/Torque Rod , Spring hangers, longer
>springs ect I sat down and did some computer modelling on the subject. I
>have come up with a couple of solutions first a double pivot shackle for
>the stock mount and a twin shackle solution. The double shackle
>increases up and down travel without altering springs, adds M-= in lift.
>With additional length allows you to do the longer spring conversion
>without moving the stock mounts. The twin shackle model is really cool
>as it solves the diff skewing under articulation and combined with a
>crossover steering using a double pivot almost eliminates bump steer
>entirely.
This sounds good. Is this basically a double shackle at the rear end
of the spring?
>Another benefit as the axle is not skewing under articulation
>clearance problems with oversize tyres under full lock on the 3rd gen
>body style are no longer an issue till you go past 21in wide. For double
>pivot crossover steering instead of linking the steering box to the
>steering arm directly you link it a pivot pint opposite chassis rail.
>This mount is dropped on relation to the pitman arm. From the pivot you
>link to the steering arm. By doing this you remove a lot of bump steer
>due to the arc of the steering linkage.
Is this assuming the draglink was flat or at an angle?
>In doing a double shackle
>(shackles on both ends) you need to have a linkage to keep the axle in
>line, ie not collapsing a shackle. To do this you form a V link to
>locate the axle as far rearward as possible. An ideal location is the
>Tcase crossmember, but a new unit will need to be fabricated and braces
>to the chassis will need to be installed to distribute the loads. As
>soon as I get a chance I am going to put a Twin shackle setup with a
>double pivot shackle on one end on TonkaTuf2 (Front and Rear). I ordered
>longer springs yesterday to do the job, will have it up and running in
>about a week.
This is a very good way to go. Some of the guys here in Arizona run
them on their Jeeps. Sure you have seen them in the mags. Nice
thing about this type setup is that you have very positive axle control
with the link system.........no axle wrap at all. The one limitation is
that the spring and link arcs differ and there is minor spring s'ing
and slight bind in the leaves under extreme travel, but it is still an
excellent system.
Have any pics of the front torque rod design?
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:45:58 -0000
From: runars@isbank.is
Subject: Crossover Steering
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
[-->> ] [snip]
If you are planing on going this far, why not just go the whole way and
drop the leafs for some long-soft coils?
To properly control the axle with this setup, you have more or less
alllready made it controlled enough for coils.....! With coils there is
no axle wrap whatsoever, and with a propper link setup, there is no
binding in the system at all. Plus, coils are kind-of cheap to make.
Those of you connsidering that Crossover swap. The new sterring arm
does bolt to the top of the passenger side knuckle, doesn't it? And that
makes the drag-link positoned above the leaf pack, right?
Runar.
> This is a very good way to go. Some of the guys here in Arizona run
> them on their Jeeps. Sure you have seen them in the mags. Nice
> thing about this type setup is that you have very positive axle
> control
> with the link system.........no axle wrap at all. The one limitation
> is
> that the spring and link arcs differ and there is minor spring s'ing
> and slight bind in the leaves under extreme travel, but it is still an
> excellent system.
>
> Have any pics of the front torque rod design?
>
> Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 02:22:20 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Crossover Steering
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>For double pivot crossover steering instead of linking the steering
>box to the steering arm directly you link it a pivot pint opposite
>chassis rail. This mount is dropped on relation to the pitman arm.
>From the pivot you link to the steering arm. By doing this you
>remove a lot of bump steer due to the arc of the steering linkage.
Jay Wrote
>Is this assuming the draglink was flat or at an angle?
The draglink is always at an angle. As you have to link the steering box
(on Frame) to the steering arm (on axle). If you have a single link , ie
direct from steering box to steering arm, you have an arc of movement as
the axle articulates. When you go to double pivot this arc is reduced
greatly removing a lot of bump steer.
Runar Wrote
>Those of you considering that Crossover swap. The new
>steering arm does bolt to the top of the passenger side knuckle,
>doesn't it? And that makes the drag-link positioned above the
> leaf pack, right?
Double Pivot Setup. The steering box (IFS Type) is located on the
drivers side of the frame. On the passenger side chassis rail you setup
a pivot point. This pivot moves parallel with the axle. The pivot point
is below the chassis rail and has 3 link points. The upper link is the
frame pivot below that the link to the steering box and on the lower
point the link to the steering arm. The attachment point for the
draglink to the steering arm is on the drivers side with the pivot on
the passenger side. If you then setup a panhard rod from the passenger
side chassis rail to the axle and position the pivot in line with the
panhard, you will have a near perfect setup. The panhard which locates
the axle will move through the same arc as the steering link. As for
positioning of the link it depends on the panhard. If you don't use a
panhard rod you can attach above or below the leaf pack it all depends
on the steering arm you are using. With the link above the pack bump
steer is less than if it is below. The above the leaf pack method would
have a straight linkage and below would have a bend in it. If a panhard
is used you would attach to the Tie Rod inline with the attachment point
of the panhard on the axle to get a parallel link to the panhard.
Jay wrote on the suspension setup
> Is this basically a double shackle at the rear end of the spring?
Yes, and more. On the front diff I'm going for a Double shackle on the
front and a single on the back, on the rear it the other way around. The
position is controlled via a V link setup. Caster is constant throughout
the entire travel.
Jay Wrote
>The one limitation is that the spring and link arcs differ and there
>is minor spring sling and slight bind in the leaves under extreme
>travel, but it is still an excellent system.
This is taken up by the shackles themselves as the shackle closest to
the V link pivot moves less than the other. The arc minimised by the low
attachment Point of the V link (Centre of Tcase crossmember). The angles
are not really an issue as the axle is located by the V link without
restriction by the leaf pack.
Jay Wrote
>Have any pics of the front torque rod design?
I will forward some sketches and pics later directly to you.
Runar Wrote
>If you are planing on going this far, why not just go the whole
>way and drop the leafs for some long-soft coils?
Two reasons, simplicity and travel. The leaf setup is simpler as most of
what I need is in place now. I don't even need to change the shocks,
just adjust the inboard links. Coils would mean higher shock rates which
will be difficult. With the coils, to get the up travel they would need
to sit between the wheel and the frame which is not feasible. Without
doing this the up travel is limited when the coils crush together. To
get the same travel as the leaf setup an effective lift of 16 in would
need to be added making the vehicle unstable to say the least. TonkaTuf2
already has extreme travel and this is an upgrade to that, to make it
any higher than what's needed for articulation and to clear tyres, by
going coils, is not in the plan. It is true you can get around these
problems but the expense is high and the computer modelling shows that
you still have in the end the same travel with more stresses. I'm not in
the mood to build a new frame for TonkaTuf2 as I'm working on the frame
for TonkaTuf3 already.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:29:15 -0000
From: runars@isbank.is
Subject: Crossover Steering
To: ryna10@email.sps.mot.com, toy4x4@tlca.org, runars@isbank.is
In that case, that should mean that the drag-link is lateral with the
average lift of 3 - 5 inches. and therefore no bumpsteer. In theory
there should be some but it is actually within error. No way to feel it.
And in my books, suspension lifts over 5 inches are useless, and just
produce more problems than can be solved properly, and in a clean
manner. With a suspension lift of 5 inches and a proper body lift of
3"-4", You will be able to fit 44" tires, even on a Hilux. No need to
go higher.
Runar.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jay Kopycinski [SMTP:ryna10@email.sps.mot.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 1998 5:04 PM
> To: Toyota 4x4 List; runars@isbank.is
> Subject: Crossover Steering
>
> runars@isbank.is wrote:
>
> >Those of you connsidering that Crossover swap. The new sterring arm
> >does bolt to the top of the passenger side knuckle, doesn't it? And
> that
> >makes the drag-link positoned above the leaf pack, right?
>
> Yes, that is correct.
>
>
> Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:03:32 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Crossover Steering
To: Toyota 4x4 List , runars@isbank.is
runars@isbank.is wrote:
>Those of you connsidering that Crossover swap. The new sterring arm
>does bolt to the top of the passenger side knuckle, doesn't it? And that
>makes the drag-link positoned above the leaf pack, right?
Yes, that is correct.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:34:32 -0800
From: "Brandon Miller"
Subject: Crossover Steering
To:
>In that case, that should mean that the drag-link is lateral with the
>average lift of 3 - 5 inches. and therefore no bumpsteer. In theory
>there should be some but it is actually within error. No way to feel it.
>
Any idea why I never felt any bumpsteer before I went to the crossover and
now that I have it and the drag link is horizontal, it has some pretty
severe bumpsteer? I wouldn't go back but I do notice it more. The only
thing that does not seem perfect with the system is that when I bolted the
box up to my 83' frame the output is not in line with the steering column,
it points toward the drivers side mirror- would this have an effect? I am
going to try to shim the bax soon. The only other thing is that my other
steering shaft had a spline in it and this one does not - two universals and
a rag joint.
>And in my books, suspension lifts over 5 inches are useless, and just
>produce more problems than can be solved properly, and in a clean
>manner.
Probably true, a friend of mine has 6" springs with shackles (no body lift)
and he has more problems than you could imagine.
>>
>> >Those of you connsidering that Crossover swap. The new sterring arm
>> >does bolt to the top of the passenger side knuckle, doesn't it? And
>> that
>> >makes the drag-link positoned above the leaf pack, right?
>>
Some people do just bolt it on but I wouldn't do that. The leverage on
those bolts is a bit much, weld the two arms together with a metal plate
between the two or buy one of the precast ones....
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Brandon Miller
Sacramento CA
email - miller@csus.edu
home page - http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:22:48 -0800
From: "Brandon Miller"
Subject: crossover
To:
Hello everyone, I posted a page with a few pictures of my setup. I'd post
more but I ran out of space on my site ;(
http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb/Cross.html
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Brandon Miller
Sacramento CA
email - miller@csus.edu
home page - http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:00:50 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Crossover Steering
To: Toyota 4x4 List
"james stevenson" wrote:
>The draglink is always at an angle. As you have to link the steering box
>(on Frame) to the steering arm (on axle). If you have a single link , ie
>direct from steering box to steering arm, you have an arc of movement as
>the axle articulates. When you go to double pivot this arc is reduced
>greatly removing a lot of bump steer.
With my 3-4 inch lift and a double arm setup, my draglink is gonna
be real close to flat.
>Jay wrote on the suspension setup
>> Is this basically a double shackle at the rear end of the spring?
>
>Yes, and more. On the front diff I'm going for a Double shackle on the
>front and a single on the back, on the rear it the other way around. The
>position is controlled via a V link setup. Caster is constant throughout
>the entire travel.
Ok....I see.
>Jay Wrote
>>The one limitation is that the spring and link arcs differ and there
>>is minor spring sling and slight bind in the leaves under extreme
>>travel, but it is still an excellent system.
>
>This is taken up by the shackles themselves as the shackle closest to
>the V link pivot moves less than the other. The arc minimised by the low
>attachment Point of the V link (Centre of Tcase crossmember). The angles
>are not really an issue as the axle is located by the V link without
>restriction by the leaf pack.
Ok....now I see you will have shackles at both ends.......
>the mood to build a new frame for TonkaTuf2 as I'm working on the frame
>for TonkaTuf3 already.
Keep sending out the good info........and show us some pics sometime :-)
Jay
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:22:05 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Crossover Steering
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
>And in my books, suspension lifts over 5 inches are useless, and
>just produce more problems than can be solved properly, and in
>a clean manner. With a suspension lift of 5 inches and a
>proper body lift of 3"-4", You will be able to fit 44" tires, even on
>a Hilux. No need to go higher.
I'll assume you are talking about stock spring mount positions. If you
move the mounts and have larger eye to eye lengths larger lifts and more
articulation is achieved. You are correct that to many this may seem
complex but with sound engineering its not that hard. If you want to
swing really big tyres with extreme travel you need big lifts. That
means more that 5 inch.
>Any idea why I never felt any bumpsteer before I went to the
>crossover and now that I have it and the drag link is horizontal, it
>has some pretty severe bumpsteer?
Its due to the engineering on your setup. Most that I have seen create
more problems than they solve. The key is to get the link as close to
parallel with the axle, Ie the lowest point possible for the steering
box and the highest for the steering arm. If your lift is above 4in you
should look at a double pivot crossover setup especally if you have
added a panhard rod.
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:41:44 -0800
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: Crossover Steering
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> >Any idea why I never felt any bumpsteer before I went to the
> >crossover and now that I have it and the drag link is horizontal, it
> >has some pretty severe bumpsteer?
>
> Its due to the engineering on your setup. Most that I have seen create
> more problems than they solve. The key is to get the link as close to
> parallel with the axle, Ie the lowest point possible for the steering
> box and the highest for the steering arm. If your lift is above 4in you
> should look at a double pivot crossover setup especally if you have
> added a panhard rod.
>
> James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
>
It is parallel, check out the picture:
http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb/Cross.html
specifically:
http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb/cross.jpg
The bumpsteer isn't bad and hardly noticable but it is not better than it
was.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:57:31 -0700
From: "wg"
Subject: crossover steering
David wrote.
>It does not have a place on the arm to mount the drag link, it mounts in a
>hole in the tie rod. The problem comes with the steering box/pitman arm -
>what to use?
A friend and I just did a crossover steering on his 85 Toy over the last
2 weekends.
We ended up using a Toyota 2wd pickup box and pitman arm.
We tried a 4wd IFS box with BJ-60 arm first though.
We found that it was a lot easier to get the box and arm as
high as possible with the 2wd box.
>I have been looking at the stock IFS box & arm, trying to see if it will be
>possible to use it, but I am thinking I won't be able to. For some reason
>I keep thinking that since the box is on the outside of the frame the pitman
>arm will hit the driver's side spring pack if it compresses too much. Is
>this a valid worry?
Yup this is a very valid worry. We discovered this at about 1 in the
morning. Get the box and pitman arm as high as possible.
>What have people who have done the crossover setup done with the IFS
>steering box & arm? Would it be possible to use the stock box & arm,
>even though the arm has the joint end built in? A friend suggested
>that that joint be drilled out & a bolt for a rod end be used there
>instead.
Anything is possible, but we ended up using Landcruiser parts.
Take a look at the relay rod on a TLC with the adjustable ball
and socket. This is what we used to mate the pitman arm and
relay rod.
Wil
http://www.off-road.com/~wilmonky
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:25:33 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: crossover steering setups
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>I am still trying to figure out what I will have to do with the steering on my
>truck once I cut out the IFS & put in the Dana 44.
>
>It does not have a place on the arm to mount the drag link, it mounts in a
>hole in the tie rod. The problem comes with the steering box/pitman arm -
>what to use?
>I have been looking at the stock IFS box & arm, trying to see if it will be
>possible to use it, but I am thinking I won't be able to. For some reason I
>keep thinking that since the box is on the outside of the frame the pitman arm
>will hit the driver's side spring pack if it compresses too much. Is this a
>valid worry? Does anyone have any pics of that spring compressed & the pitman
>arm in action?
Yes, with the box outside the frame rail the only way to connect a draglink
to the tie rod is to find a tie rod end that brings the attachment hole way
inside the frame rails to avoid having the draglink hit the spring. However,
this leaves a high angle draglink....bad bumpsteer.
Some of the Jeep guys will weld a steering arm on top of the Dana 44
passenger side knuckle and connect their draglink there. You better
know what you're doing to do this though.
>Another option I am considering is swapping out the steering box for another
>one. I know Jack & Jay said they looked into this option for their crossover
>setups, but I was thinking that since I am using a Jeep axle, why not use a
>Jeep steering box? I haven't really looked into this but I will be soon.
I looked at Saginaw boxes a little but found I had no room to mount one.
The Saginaw typically sit inside the frame rails and take up a lot of room.
The IFS box kinda sits on the frame rail with only the sector shaft running
down the side of the frame.
>What have people who have done the crossover setup done with the IFS steering
>box & arm? Would it be possible to use the stock box & arm, even though the
>arm has the joint end built in? A friend suggested that that joint be
>drilled out & a bolt for a rod end be used there instead.
I used an IFS box and FJ60 Pitman. Mounting the box is critical to keep
the PItman away from the compressed spring. You need to mount the box
high and forward as possible. The stock IFS arm has more clearance in
this area. Marlin has been pressing the ball stud out of the stock Pitman,
pressing in a bushing and using a rod end on the draglink. Two things I
like about tie rod ends over rod ends though......they are cheaper and they
last a lot longer in dirty environments.
>Anyone have any other thoughts on this? I hope to have this done by the fall,
>but the steering is really the main thing I need to overcome before I dive
>into this.
Check out all the possibilities. There may be other methods nobody has
tried. Just watch all your clearances.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:16:47 EDT
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Re: crossover steering setups
In a message dated 98-06-10 22:00:27 EDT, you write:
>
> Yes, with the box outside the frame rail the only way to connect a draglink
> to the tie rod is to find a tie rod end that brings the attachment hole way
> inside the frame rails to avoid having the draglink hit the spring.
However,
> this leaves a high angle draglink....bad bumpsteer.
Well, the stock tie rod has the drag link hole in a positon so that if you
turn the tires to point as far to the passenger side as possible, the drag
link still does not hit. Several friends have this & I have checked for marks
of hitting - none. I agree that this *should* cause bumpsteer, but I am not
sure. I drove my friend's Wrangler with the same axle I will be using in the
front. I drove it on a curvy road, lots of bumps & pot holes, as well as on
the Interstate at 65 mph with out noticing any problems. This is on a vehicle
with 38's, springover, & 2.5" suspension lift. I know it is a Jeep, but If I
am using the same axle & basically the same steering setup, It doeas not look
that bad. I am really more worried about the pitman arm side causing the
binding problems.
I guess the "Great Summer Wrecking-Yard Adventure & Exploration" will get into
full swing soon...
> Some of the Jeep guys will weld a steering arm on top of the Dana 44
> passenger side knuckle and connect their draglink there. You better
> know what you're doing to do this though.
I don't like that idea myself. I think I should be able to come up with
another way to get it done.
There is one idea I want to toss out that was mentiond to me. The guy with the
Wrangler (above) saw an interesting approach up at Tellico on a Jeep. The guy
had made a bracket & attached the steering box to the axle. The steering
shaft had been upgraded to a much heavier unit with a slip yoke, just like a
driveshaft. Talk about a great way to eliminate bumpsteer. Sounds kinda
strange to me, but if it works...
thanks for the feedback.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Moore DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:48:48 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: pitman arm
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>For those with the IFS steering box on the crossover setup, are any of you
>using some other pitman arm on the IFS box? I seem to remember someone sayong
>something about an FJ arm? Maybe I was dreaming.
Yes, I use an FJ60 pitman. You can thank Jack for digging up that idea.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:14:23 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: crossover steering
OK, I ran into a problem on my crossover steering and had a question for
the guys who have done this (Jay, Jack, Brandon and whoever else)
My problem is with the passenger side arm (I have the Aqualu-like the
Fabtech just not as beefy).
My problem is that when I compress the passenger side and droop the
drivers side my drag link will hit the frame and oil pan. This is only
testing the system (not installed at this time except for the passenger
side arm)
I found that if I hooked up my dragling to the bottom side of the
passenger's upper arm I have the clearance for both the spring and the
frame and oil pan.
Do any of you guys have the drag link end mounted on the bottom or are
they all on top.
I do run alcans but I also run about 4" bumpstops to keep my tires off
the fender.
Unfortunatly for the Aqualu arm I do not dare to taper a new hole to fit
a fj-60 or truck tie rod because of the lack of material that the arm
has. (right Jay)
Thanks
Toyota Tony
http://www.digitalpla.net/~offroader
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:01:41 -0700
From: "RockCrawler"
Subject: Re: crossover steering
>My problem is that when I compress the passenger side and droop the
>drivers side my drag link will hit the frame and oil pan. This is only
>testing the system (not installed at this time except for the passenger
>side arm)
Wow, how high is that thing? could you take some measurements so I can
compare? Got any pictures?
>I found that if I hooked up my dragling to the bottom side of the
>passenger's upper arm I have the clearance for both the spring and the
>frame and oil pan.
>
>Do any of you guys have the drag link end mounted on the bottom or are
>they all on top.
>I do run alcans but I also run about 4" bumpstops to keep my tires off
>the fender.
I have the opposite problem, spring hitting the pitman arm, if the other
crossover people could measure the clearance from the frame to the pitman
arm I would appreciate it. My spring even hits the nut on the box. When I
compress the passenger side the drivers side does not have enough range (the
joint bottoms out). If you take a look at the picture at the bottom of my
write up you will see that with the frame jacked up the drivers side does
not drop as far as the passengers. I took the clamps off of the springs and
my 13" Trailmaster go full range. I have the 17" Ranchos but I want to fix
the problem first. I am going to get a 60 arm ($45 at Wardens) and try to
mount the box higher, although I am not sure how much higher I can go with
my puny frame. Don't get me wrong I love the setup, just got to tune it. I
have been to Moab and the Rubicon twice (Going to Fordyce this weekend maybe
and Rubicon the next) so it has been tested and when I get a chance I will
make changes...
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Brandon Miller ICQ# 8392888
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:47:22 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: crossover steering
Tony Bartlett wrote:
>OK, I ran into a problem on my crossover steering and had a question for
>the guys who have done this (Jay, Jack, Brandon and whoever else)
>My problem is with the passenger side arm (I have the Aqualu-like the
>Fabtech just not as beefy).
>My problem is that when I compress the passenger side and droop the
>drivers side my drag link will hit the frame and oil pan. This is only
>testing the system (not installed at this time except for the passenger
>side arm)
Since I have the 4.3l our setups would be different. I did find my draglink
too close to my S-10 engine pan so I swapped over to an Astro van pan
for more clearance.
>I found that if I hooked up my dragling to the bottom side of the
>passenger's upper arm I have the clearance for both the spring and the
>frame and oil pan.
I found this wouldn't work because the draglink would hit the spring.
>Do any of you guys have the drag link end mounted on the bottom or are
>they all on top.
>I do run alcans but I also run about 4" bumpstops to keep my tires off
>the fender.
With 4" bumpstops it seems you should have no problem with the draglink
hitting the frame.
>Unfortunatly for the Aqualu arm I do not dare to taper a new hole to fit
>a fj-60 or truck tie rod because of the lack of material that the arm
>has. (right Jay)
I agree there.
Then......Brandon wrote:
>I have the opposite problem, spring hitting the pitman arm, if the other
>crossover people could measure the clearance from the frame to the pitman
>arm I would appreciate it. My spring even hits the nut on the box.
With my dropped spring mounts I now have more clearance....and......you
must make sure you mount the box as high and as far forward as possible.
>When I compress the passenger side the drivers side does not have
>enough range (the joint bottoms out).
This really should not happen........
>If you take a look at the picture at the bottom of my
>write up you will see that with the frame jacked up the drivers side does
>not drop as far as the passengers. I took the clamps off of the springs and
>my 13" Trailmaster go full range. I have the 17" Ranchos but I want to fix
>the problem first.
Are these the custom rebuildable ones?
>I am going to get a 60 arm ($45 at Wardens) and try to
>mount the box higher, although I am not sure how much higher I can go with
>my puny frame. Don't get me wrong I love the setup, just got to tune it. I
>have been to Moab and the Rubicon twice (Going to Fordyce this weekend maybe
>and Rubicon the next) so it has been tested and when I get a chance I will
>make changes...
Takes a little experimenting to get it right. Sounds like it's working pretty
good though.
Jay
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 21:49:20 -0700
From: Greg Sue
Subject: Fabtech arms
Apparently, Fabtech is having "difficulties" and is "currently out of
business." I was talking with the guys at the Toyota 4x4 Center about
cross-over steering two days ago, and they are using a different
steering arm that will work with a wider variety of rims. Ph (604)
431-0106 (BC) or http://www.toyota4x4.com/
Also, thanks to everyone who responded to my Rancho torque rod question;
I'll check into the warranty thing.
Greg Sue
no-clue@mindless.com
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Dunes/9948/
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
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