Birfield Joints
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:00:46 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron or Lori Hryniuk)
Subject: Anybody broken a birfield?
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
I haven't, but my buddy Wayne has done in 3. He runs 33X12.50 Swampers in a
1980 Pick up with fr/rr lockers and as homemade crawler. 5.29 gears. They
were all broken going in reverse while turning AFAIK (pulling a log [1],
backing up a hill [2]). I don't remember if the first one was a short or
long. The other two went at the same time, no crawler in at the time (his
wife blew it up). Stock 22R with a very mild torque cam. A very hard-core
'wheeler.
Justin has broken one, short side. I don't know the year of his axle (he
probably doesn't either) but it uses the longer fine splined birf that is
pretty much the same piece as the pick-up ones. He was running an Auburn up
front. 4.11s. Took the Auburn out and put a Lock-Right in, he likes the
lock-right much better and his Auburn is still for sale. He's convinced
that the Auburn was the cause of the damage due too much constant preload
all the time on the birfs while the hubs are locked. This is a *low*
maintenance rig.
The Auburn is for sale, it's very low mileage--Offers??
j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:11:50 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron)
Subject: Birfield joint question--answered
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
>
>Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:40:43 -0400
>From: vamike1@mnsinc.com (Mike P)
>Subject: birfeild joint question
>To: tlcal@tlca.org
>
>What is it about the newer type CV joints on Toy trucks that make them so
>much stronger than the old style birfeild joints??
The Hilux and newer LC Birfields have less material ground off the joint to
make it fit in the knuckle. This adds quite a bit to the strength of the
joint. There are actually about 4 different series of birfields used.
The following is from my "Useless Information File"
- ---------------------------------------------------------
For your information there are FOUR different series of Birfield joints
that go along with LandCruisers, the later ones are much beefier than the
old ones. The normal reason for failure of birfields is due to wear and
inadequate lubrication with the right type of grease--Yes they do have to
be maintained. The lack of grease and proper lubrication causes the balls
in the birfield to score the outer 'cage' and this introduces weakness.
The main cause of failure in the off road environment is by people who
apply masses of power through them while they are cranking the wheel hard
in one direction or the other. They are very strong and will take a lot of
side loading but they were not designed for 350 HP firebreathing engines.
**Avoid applying gobs of power while in a reversing turn (No. 1 cause of
destruction, it seems)**. The other cause of failure is making the birfield
operate outside of its operating (steering) range. If you are breaking
birfields, even occaionally, then you should check your steering stops to
see that they haven't been turned in to improve the turning radius of the
vehicle.
Birfields exist in virtually all of the World's finest fourwheel drives and
they are a much better unit than just a regular U-joint, like those found
in the rather pathetic Dana 30.
The pick-ups use the same birfields as the later Cruisers, from 1981 and
on. They are NOT pick up parts transplanted in to Cruisers but the other
way around.
Let me try to draw this:
##=======D=#
^ ^ ^^^
A B CDE
A: R&P splines (spline count varies: < 78, >= 78)
B: Inner axle (R&P <-> Birfield)
C: Birfield joint
D: Outer shaft (Birfield <-> hub)
E: End of outer shaft (splines to free wheeling or fixed hub)
1968-10/72 coarse splined 3.260"
11/72-9/75 ditto 3.318"
9/75-12/78 fine splined "long"
1/79-1/90 ditto "short"
>I assume the "coarse splined" vs. "fine splined" refers to the splines
>on the outer shaft of the birfield -- the one that the hub attaches
>to. Is this correct?
Yes, there are two different sets of outside spline types. The coarse
splines number 6, Fine splines number 30 (inner axle-->birfield has 27
splines on the fine splined birfields). Fine splines by their nature are
very much stronger due to the increased contact area, just as fine threaded
bolts are much stronger than coarse threaded ones. I believe there are also
differences on the spline counts for the inner axle shafts that "plug in"
to the birfield, but I haven't counted them. I could go outside and count
them if you need this info, let me know. I don't think they are
interchangeable, so the splining must be different, or the shafts a
different diameter.
>Also, is "long" just shorthand for the measurement of 3.260"? Ditto
>for "short" and 3.318"?
Uhh, no. The numbers, in inches for the Metrically-Challenged, refer to the
diameter of the outer 'cage' or housing of the birfield itself. They got
larger in diameter as they progressed from series to series. The small
increase in diameter makes a decent increase in strength.
>And, most importantly, what is the measurement? I don't think it's
>the outer shaft length. Diameter of the birfield? I thought they
>were bigger than that.
Birfields are surprisingly small in diameter, the fine spline "short"
measure about 85mm across the flats (the flat ground 'edge' on each side of
the birfield so that it fits into the knuckle) and about 89mm in diameter
(3.346" and 3.5" respectively). The outer shaft on the coarse splined
birfield that I have in my garage is 175 mm (6 7/8") long, the short & fine
one is 178mm (7") long. The Long & fine birfield is about 10mm longer.
It's EXTREMELY important that the steering range is at the stock setting or
less (see info below). A few degrees, actually even 1 degree, too much and
they will go so often that you should purchase shares in the company that
makes them. I ran into a fellow in South Africa who trial races some pretty
trick 4X4s and he was going through Birfields every weekend UNTIL he
adjusted his steering stops to the right setting AND he has yet to go
through one since. These guys usually adjust the stops in so that they can
turn much sharper to be competitive. At somewhere near $400 each new or
$75-150 used, they are pretty costly items to be replacing, never mind the
time involved.
Oh and to the reader who pointed out that the p/u's had birfields until
1985 and then they switched to the independent front...yeah I know but I
guess I mis-placed a modifier in there somewhere--I meant the Cruisers used
them (the newest design found on the pick ups) from 1/79 til 1/90 (and then
my data sheet ends). The p/u's had the latest birfield design starting in
1979 or 1980...I think (same as the Cruiser). Birfields are still being
used in the Hilux (with "solid" live axle front suspension --not a North
American Market truck) and Land Cruisers.
Alignment specs: solid axle type
Camber: 1 degree +/- 45'
King pin inclination: 9 degrees 30' +/- 45'
Caster (unloaded): 2 degrees 15' +/- 1 degree (pick up, 1985 manual)
1 degree +/- 45' (Land Cruiser -J 4_ series)
1 degree 05' +/- 45' (Land Cruiser -J 6_ series)
Toe (radial tire): 1 +/- 4mm (0.04 +/- 0.16 inches) inspection std.
1 +/- 1mm (0.04 +/- 0.04 inches) adjustment std.
Toe (bias tire): 4 +/- 2mm
Turning angle: 29 - 32 degrees
Wheel Steering Range: inside wheel 30 degrees 30' +1 / -2 degrees
outside wheel 29 degrees
at 20 degrees: inside wheel 20 deg. 30'
outside wheel 20 deg.
Side Slip: less than 3.0 mm/m (0.118in./3.3ft)
NOTES: The bit about "inside wheel" and "outside wheel" refers to the wheel
location when the wheels are turned. For instance, the inside wheel is the
one that is pointing in towards the spring (ie: in a left turn the inside
wheel is the right side wheel). The measurements are taken from the front
of the wheel, they must be measured accurately so it is probably best to
have a competent (computerized) alignment shop do it.
NOTE 2: the steering stops, on the pick-ups at least, have little plastic
caps on them--they must be removed when making these adjustments and
measurements. The stops are torqued to 35 ft-lbs when your done. (480 kg-cm
or 47 Nm).
- --------------------------------------------------------
End of boring info.
Later,j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 16:42:17 -0700
From: p_senger@deepcove.com (Phil Senger)
Subject: Birfields
To: TLCAL@tlca.org
What is it about the newer type CV joints on Toy trucks that make them so
much stronger than the old style birfeild joints??
On Cruiser's they made the round part with the flat spots narrower. With
the pick-ups they increased the tolerance between the two steering
bearings. Usually if the birfield is going to crack, it go on the flat
spot. BTW to make a Toy p/u birfield work in a stock truck you either have
to grind (gently) the flat spots down, (defeats the purpose)or grind down a
little off the post that drops down thru the steering bearing.(better)
Hey Rob M. can't wait to see the trip report from the Island. Remember it
wasn't me who broke the pinion on my truck.
Pete L, hope you had a safe drive home.
Later
Granite Grinder
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser
TLCA #1539
Coastal Cruisers
Vancouver, B.C., Canada
------------------------------
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Date: 4 Aug 1997 09:26:09 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: I need advice
To: "Dana Adams" , "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:01 AM
OFFICE MEMO I need advice Date: 8/4/97
ad366@lafn.org (Dana Adams) wrote:
snip
>Axles: I am considering only trucks with solid axles, and am wondering
>about their strength. in the TLC list, there is lots of talk about breaking
>the front birfield joints. It seems a rather not-uncommon occurrence. Does
>this occur with regularity on the minis? How about snapping axle shafts,
>front or rear? I am considering running either 33 or 35" tires with
>proper gears for rock crawling, and lockers.
The main reason people break Birfields is due to stressing them at
full turn lock. They need to be kept inside the factory steering angle
limits. If you exceed the angle limits the stress on the Birfields rises
drastically. Also, do not try to stress them hard trying to climb a
ledge at a hard turn lock....this is when they'll snap.
I personally think they are quite strong and have yet to break one.
I think a Dana 44 might be a tad stronger in the joint area, but not
by much. I am speaking from a rock-crawling viewpoint. Mud running,
jumping, etc would probably pound the Birfields pretty good too, but
these are generally not hard steering lock activitie...more straight
line.
Things that will stress the joints more:
Lockers (no axle release of torque any more)
Swampers,Bigger Swampers, Boggers (SO much traction)
Manual vs. Auto Tranny (an auto will be kinder to the whole drivetrain)
I've never seen a front axle shaft snap on a Toy truck....only Birfileds.
They are good size (30 spline)
I've seen only one rear axle ('85) snap and you could tell the axle
has a metallurgy flaw in it. The shafts are big (1.30").
Depending on gear ratio, you'll almost always either shear pinion
teeth or blow a u-joint on the rear.....both cases rare without V8
power.
>Transfer cases and transmissions. How strong is the stock tcase on these
>trucks?
Very strong. Will handle V8s and large tires used somewhat sanely.
> also, how strong is the 5 speed trans.
Late models ('85 on) are well made. People use them behind large
American V6s successfully.....you just can't abuse them lots with
such an engine.
>On the stock Land Cruiser
>tcases, Marlin can work his magic on the inside, so you can keep the
>stock box and double your low-range ratio. Can you do this with the mini
>tcase? I hear talk on the minis about double tcases. Is this because
>he can't modify the innards on the mini cases?
You can add one or more low gear set behind the stock one and/or
swap in a 4.7:1 gear set in any of these gear cases to go as low
as you want.
>Anyone have any ideas on the stock tcase and transmission ratios?
'85s:
TC 2.28:1
'81 thru '87 five speeds
1st 3.93 or 3.95
2nd 2.14 or 2.33
3rd 1.45 or 1.38
4th 1.00
5th 0.85
Also, what are stock axle ratios on the manual-transmission-equipped truck?
'85 all came 4.11:1
>Suspension: Obviously, rock crawling requires good suspension articulation.
>Any comments about the best system out there? I know OME is supposed to
>be the cats meow for Cruisers, do they make one for older 4runners? How
>big a lift? Enough for 33 or 35's? (probably not)
>If not OME, who else is good?
OME for live axle trucks and 4Runners is 2.5" lift. We could talk days
on suspension systems....a lot depends on how handy you are and how
much work you want to do. I've yet to find an out-of-the box system
that was the best. That's why I modify aftermarket spring packs or
make my own out of a variety of leaves.
>For extreme 'wheelin, what is the list opinion about carb vs FI?
EFI is the way to go......except......if it dies on the boonies, you
can't go anywhere without that high pressure fuel pump and
spark system. Fortunately, the Toy system is very reliable
and worry-free (I'd say).
>I've been on some runs where the carbureted mini trucks seemed to flood
>out on steep hills. Cruisers will run up a 60-degree slope without a
>hiccup. Can the mini carbs do this, or do they need to be modified?
Float bowl adjustments can help.
>I would
>imagine that the Fuel Injection models would be OK on this count, but
>then you start increasing complexity. I don't really know much about the
>reliability of the Toyota FI systems/sensors/computers, etc.
>Any comments?
See above.
>Finally, how about 4-cylinder engine power (torque)? I know that with
>large tires, it's gonna be a dog on the road, but I'm more concerned with
>offroad torque. On the 2F Cruiser motors, the torque curve is very low in
>the power band, i.e., it is very torquey at low rpms. Is this true with
>the 22R motors? Can you upgrade/change cams, etc, to increase torque,
>without getting into major engine reconfiguration?
There are lots of mods available. The 22R motors have good torque and
combined with Marlin gears will rock-crawl excellently.
>Sorry for the large number of questions, but any response is welcome.
>Thanks for your input.
Hope this helps get you started......there's lots more too........
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '85 4Runner
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '91 4Runner
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 07:28:31 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: breaking birfield joints
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
Jay made a good point on stressing them at full turn lock. Anyone know
the proper adjustment for them?
Another thing that I hear from people like Marlin is that they only have
problems with LOW gearing. I have heard of one breaking at 205:1 but
mainly going lower than that, 400:1 and lower.
When I first started talking with Marlin he use to break birfields every
other run. This is when he had the lower the better frame of mind.
Since then he has realized that lower is not always better. If I
remember correctly he actually took out his LOW range (he had over
2000:1 but had to many problems and dropped to 1047:1).
He still breaks them every once in a while but he knows when not to be
in LOW range.
I have yet to break one or see one broke out on the trail.
Tony.
------------------------------
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Date: 5 Aug 1997 12:19:22 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: breaking birfield joints
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 12:06 =
PM
OFFICE MEMO breaking birfield joints Date: 8/5/97
Tony Bartlett wrote:
snip
>When I first started talking with Marlin he use to break birfields every
>other run. This is when he had the lower the better frame of mind.
>Since then he has realized that lower is not always better. If I
>remember correctly he actually took out his LOW range (he had over
>2000:1 but had to many problems and dropped to 1047:1).
Remember when you add lower gears (higher numerically)
somewhere in the drivetrain, you increase the available
torque to all components downstream.
>I have yet to break one or see one broke out on the trail.
I've watched two break on the trail.
First one, the guy was trying to climb a VERY steep rock
face but had the wheels pointed straight ahead. He was
running a 350 V8 and 33 x 15.5 Swampers. He was WAY
into the gas and had decided to go at it until he made it
or he broke.......he broke.
Second one, girl with 33 x 15.5 Swampers and a Marlin
setup had the wheels almost full lock trying to climb
a nasty 3 foot rock ledge. She hit the gas a little hard
trying to bite the rock, hopped it too much and blew
the Birfield.
I was not at all surprised to see the Birfields fail
on these two occasions. A Dana/Spicer u-joint probably
wouldn't have survived any better.
In both cases, the trucks were up and running again in
about 30-45 minutes. Helps to carry spares.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '85 4Runner
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '91 4Runner
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
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Date: 27 Oct 1997 16:30:49 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Popped a Birfield
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 4:23 PM
OFFICE MEMO Popped a Birfield Date: 10/27/97
Well....it finally happened to me. Two weeks ago I was out
wheelin' and I popped the front left Birfield joint. It cracked
the cup (like they usually do) and split open. This quickly
allowed the tulip and ball bearings to get rowdy and crumble
the tulip into little pieces. I swapped it out on the trail and
finished the run but I'm gonna have to go back in to replace
the inner seal that got a little chewed.
I wasn't really putting much stress on it at the time and
actually had the tires almost straight ahead. I think it
has just been stressed for some many years, it finally
gave up and cracked.
I'm still (so far) convinced the front axle is strong enough
for my use so still (so far) see no need to go looking for
anything stronger. I'll still be carrying spares though.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 19:16:33 -0800
From: "wg"
Subject: birfields
To:
I hate to ask the obvious but how did you know your birfield was shot?
> I believe that I do some pretty hardcore wheeling and I hear the
> birfields go often but I would like to know what to look for. I should
> probably carry a spare too.
It's not too hard to know when a birfield goes especially if you have
lockers because that wheel will have no power. Generally makes
a pretty good noise on the TLC's I have seen it happen to also.
I hate talking about this (knock on nearest wood) but I would suggest
that you won't see too many birfields go on toy pickups.
It's more of a Landcruiser thing.
That being said I replaced both of my birfields last year and I think I
will
replace them in another year wether they need it or not.
Also I'm very careful with the throttle when the wheels are cranked and
especially if the front end bounces in the air.
Wil
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Date: 3 Nov 1997 09:15:48 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: birfields
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:04 AM
OFFICE MEMO birfields Date: 11/3/97
Rob Boyle wrote:
>I was under the impression that the landcruiser birfield is the same
>unit as the truck birfield with a slightly bigger flat spot ground on
>it. I would imagine we'll break them just as fast if we apply enough
>torque. I carry a spare, I wonder if I'll figure out how to install one
>on the trail!
I believe the earlier LC Birfields are a bit smaller than the
truck one. Also a LC is much heavier than a truck, especially
if it has the stock I-6 in it.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
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Date: 3 Nov 1997 08:56:31 U
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Popped a Birfield
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:44 AM
OFFICE MEMO Popped a Birfield Date: 11/3/97
Brandon Miller wrote:
>Jay,
>I hate to ask the obvious but how did you know your birfield was shot?
>I believe that I do some pretty hardcore wheeling and I hear the
>birfields go often but I would like to know what to look for. I should
>probably carry a spare too.
Other Birfields I've seen break happened under one or both of two
conditions. One way to break 'em is get some air under a front
tire and slam it back to the ground with sufficient force, large
tires, and applying an immediate increase in traction. The other
way they break is when lots of stress is applied while the
tires are turned sharply. This is especially true if the steering
stops have been adjusted outside spec to allow a smaller turning
radius.
When mine broke, neither of these situations were present.
I was climbing some switchbacks straddling a bad erosion
rut when I dropped both left side tires in about a foot and a
half deep. I was rolling forward trying to get out when it
blew. I had my tires turned slightly to try to bite the edge
of the rut and climb out, but they were still nearly straight.
I also was applying power gently.
This leads me to believe the Birfield was already stress
fatigued and finally decided to crack open.
______________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ '91 4Runner (hers)
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com '72 Jeep Commando
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk '97 H-D Sportster
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
______________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:07:08 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Birfield help
To: Toyota 4x4 List
Rob Ditusa wrote:
>Allright guys, sorry if this is a worn topic, and I did check the archives,
>but.........I need to replace a Birfield in my 1980 longbed. Where is the
>best place to get them, and is there a parts breakdown in any manual?? I
>have the Chilton's and Hayes. How much of a PITA is this??
Probably best bet is to just buy the whole axle shaft assembly for the
side you need at a junk yard. Replacing an axle is not that hard. I can
do it (granted I've done it a few times) in about half an hour.
Depending on what happened to the Birfield, you may need seals
and such. I'd at least go ahead and replace the inner axle shaft seal
while you're that far in.
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:05:37 -0700
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Birfield help
To: Toy4x4
Call Marlin (marlin crawler) number is on my web page
http://www.digitalpla.net/~offroader
He always has them for sale. I might even be the best price. I have
never priced them. They are staight forward. Remove you tire, hub,
brake caliper (leave hanging) front rotor (you will need a big socket
for this I think it has been mentioned before as being a 56mm) remove
your brake rotor, pull off the spindle and you will have access to the
axle. you need to rotate it until the flat part of the axle is straight
up and then bend the joint down and you should be able to pull it out.
Tony.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:35:19 -0500
From: Sheldon Gardner
Subject: Birfield Help
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
The best thing is to find a spare front axle then scavenge parts.
I Bought a Birfield from T.A.P. in CA for 75.00 bucks. Make sure
you insist on an 83 or older, when I ordered mine they sent me one
of of a 84 or 85 "it was too long". I managed to get the CV off
the replacement without shattering it and put it on my old axle
shaft but it was a big pain in the arse. I suppose it could be a
pain if you have never done it before but it's not too bad. You
might wanna just rebuild the knuckle while your there, new seals,
check and repack bearings etc...
I don't have T.A.P. s ph# off hand but I know they do have a page,
I think Jay has them listed on his page under parts sources.
Sheldon
sgard@flnet.com
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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:28:06 -0800
From: "Brandon Miller"
Subject: Birfield Help
To:
NO, TAP is the biggest rip off! Any other wrecker will do. I got mine at
the pick and pull for ten bucks, the whole thing including the birfield and
both the axles. tHE PLACE NEXT TO tap was going to sell me one for $40.
TAP is the last resort!
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Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 08:17:51 -0500
From: "Michael Greenway"
Subject: Birfield change
To: DITUSAR@email.exide.com
Rob..
The best place to get a birfield? mmm.... most any salvage yard will have
them. They will charge you $75 to $150 a piece. Marlin Crawler keeps about
30 or so on hand and will ship them. His number is (209)252-7295. I have
seen them replaced in as little as 25 minutes on the trail. It takes me a
hour because I usually bugger up the inner axle seal. I recommend replacing
the inner axle seal when you are in there anyway. As far as a PITA, it is
the first time. After two or three you can do it in the dark. I
have done 5 or 6, I don't remember, maybe 7.
The steps are not real hard. You will need a hub socket and some snap ring
pliers. Get hub off, remove caliper, rotor, backing plate, and spindle.
This can be done without loosing a drop of brake fluid. I use a bungee to
hold up caliper. Once spidle is removed, grab end of axle and rotate while
pulling. When flats of birfield are lined up, it will pop out. Reassemble
in reverse order.
Good luck
Michael Greenway TLCA #3000
76 FJ40, 81 mini, 86 4-Runner
Birfields, never leave the road without a extra!
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Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 10:16:49 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: strengthening the Birfield joint
I have not taked with Marlin personally about this but it looks like he
might have came up with a way to strengthen the Birfield. He would also
be the best tester of this.
What he is doing is welding on a 'ring' on the lip of the cup. Hope
people can understand.
I think he is charging $75.00 per joint (as I hear because he had to buy
a tig welder for the job)
If anyone talks with him ask how it is working.
Next time I talk with him I will also ask, but that might be awhile.
Toyota Tony
http://www.digitalpla.net/~offroader
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
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Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 22:04:41 EDT
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Re: strengthening the Birfield joint
Check out the Summit Off road site. Glen has the same thing for Sammi's. I
was just looking at it the other day for a friend & thinking that this would
be a great addition to the Toy front axle.
The idea is to not allow the outer cup to break apart, as the ring holds it
together. This looks like a pretty good way to keep the birfielf together,
but.... I always wonder what will be forced to break if the birfoeld problem
is eliminated.
As to having him do it, I would be some of you with welding & matal skills
could come up with one of these for yourself. By the way, Glan's sell for
like $65 I think.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Moore DRM033@aol.com
TLCA #5662
Traxx In Motion 4 Wheel Drive Club
http://www.Tennessee4X4.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:59:37 EST
From: "james stevenson"
Subject: Strengthening the Birfield joint
>I have not talked with Marlin personally about this but it looks
>like he might have came up with a way to strengthen the Birfield.
I spoke To Marlin Late last week. Among other thing we spoke about the
Birfeilds. Marlin told me he had an LC 80 axle in the front of his truck
to get around the problem. He was going to get started on the large
Toyota Birfield conversion to an axle. The 3rd gen solid has a larger
birfield accompanied by a bigger knuckle and hub. There are 2 3rd gen
axles. The early ones are cut between the shock mount and cup. A new
section was then added (1.5in longer). Later axles were done as one
piece. I guess Toyota modified old stock till the new ones were put in.
I have never heard of a broken 3rd gen birfeild but lots on the 1st/2nd
gens. I did however swap in an LC60 front axle into TT2 but that was
just to get ratios the same as the back (LC full floater in rear)
James Stevenson (TonkaTuf)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:16:08 -0600
From: Park Owens
Subject: Re: Birfield removal.........how?
Jay Kopycinski wrote:
>
> Anybody know how to separate the inner and outer axle shafts?
>
> The manual says place the inner axle in a vise and then use
> a brass drift and hammer to hit the Birfield inner bearing race
> and drive the axles apart. I tried this yesterday and could not
> get them apart. It looks like doing this would somehow knock
> the inside c-clip off the inner axle shaft......but how????
>
> Can anybody give me some tips on how to do this?
>
> Appreciate any info.
>
> Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
>
> ============================================================================
> Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
Jay,
You just about had it. What you are doing is driving the Birfield over
the little c-ring at the end of the inner axle shaft. Yup, you hit the
inner race and drive it off the shaft. Some are difficult and you end
up cutting, tearing, breaking the end c-ring, but it will come off.
Cheers,
Park
- --
Park Owens rokcrwlr@rapidnet.com '76 FJ-40 '88 FJ-62 TLCA 2569
Dakota Territory Cruisers P O Box 2238 Rapid City, SD 57709
Home of the Black Hills Cruiser Classic July 21-25, 1999
TLCA Central/Mountain Representative www.rapidnet.com/~rokcrwlr
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:44:43 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: separating birfields
Jay, Park said it right. I just did this (for the first time). I
figured I would take them apart, clean them real well and lube them, put
them back together and wrap plastic wrap around them to keep them
clean. It is a mess trying to pack grease in them on the trail.
I had to hammer really hard to remove mine. I only did one because the
c-clip broke and now I need a clip. I hear that most of the time the
c-clip will break. You might want to get a couple before you take them
apart.
Toyota Tony
http://www.digitalpla.net/~offroader
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:38:00 -0600
From: Park Owens
Subject: Re: separating birfields
Tony, Jay...
FWIW those little c-clips are readily available from Honda, Toyota etc
and maybe not cost you a penny if you approach them right. One of our
Cruiser Chapter members is a Honda mechanic and that's what he uses on
his Birfields. I walked in one day and he gave me a handful. I used to
need them, but not now since I don't have Birfields in my '76 Cruiser
anymore.
Park
- --
Park Owens rokcrwlr@rapidnet.com '76 FJ-40 '88 FJ-62 TLCA 2569
Dakota Territory Cruisers P O Box 2238 Rapid City, SD 57709
Home of the Black Hills Cruiser Classic July 21-25, 1999
TLCA Central/Mountain Representative www.rapidnet.com/~rokcrwlr
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:24:27 -0400
From: Will and Sumiko
Subject: How to disassemble birfields
Hollis wrote:
> >Anybody know how to separate the inner and outer axle shafts?
> >
> >The manual says place the inner axle in a vise and then use
> >a brass drift and hammer to hit the Birfield inner bearing race
> >and drive the axles apart. I tried this yesterday and could not
> >get them apart. It looks like doing this would somehow knock
> >the inside c-clip off the inner axle shaft......but how????
You've got it right, you just have to hit it REAL hard. Definitely
use a brass drift so you don't mar the inner race. You will actually
BREAK the inner C-clip doing this, so go right now and buy some
replacements from Toyota. They don't mention in the book that you
need new clips, kind of a bummer on Saturday night when you think
you're gonna put the truck back together.
Reassembling the joint is also a trick. You put the outer half in
the vise, with the joint facing up ( having already greased the joint).
Put the inner c-clip on the inner shaft and slide it in until the clip
hits the joint. Then, with light downward pressure on the axle, press
in on the c-clip with a small screwdriver or awl, when you get it right
it will "pop" into the splined joint and allow you to drive the axle
shaft fully into place.
Will
============================================================================
Toyota 4x4 page: http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/toyota
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:25:24 -0700
From: "Brandon Miller"
Subject: Re: [Fwd: New Birfields???]
call it luck but I got the whole long side axle with birfield for $15 at the
pick and pull, ya just got to look a little.
>Will and Sumiko wrote:
>>
>> This has been discussed on the cruiser mailing list, but I thought you
>>guys might want to post it here as well.
>>
>> NAPA auto parts sells new birfields for $157 each, and entire assemblies
>>(inner axle with birfields) for $199. If you've ever busted a joint onthe
>>trail, you know that this ain't bad for a new assembly.
>>
>> Will Leaman
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 12:38:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: davekimm@webtv.net (david meador)
Subject: Birfield joints on straight axle trucks
I had a Detroit soft locker in the front of my 85 4Runner with 36"
swamper tsl/sx's . In a little over two years I cracked broke or
shattered seven Berfield (cv) joints. Usually this happened in a
situation were I had the wheel
turned sharply and applied power or when I was popping over a hill or
out of a creek and caught a little air.
I have an idea to fix this weak lik and wanted to run it past the list.
I would have a custom front axle made with a ujoint instead of a
Birfield. There is enough room inside the closed knuckle for a good
sized u-joint. ther are several problems with this setup.
Diffs that run U-joints are usually open knuckle and have the axle seal
in the center
section not at the end of the axle tube as the Toyota does. It is my
understanding that because the U-joint does not turn at a
constant velocity that the axle will actually walk up and down on the
U-joint end, which is the reason the seal is located inboard. Also the
opening in the end of the Toyota housing is only slightly larger than
the axle and they may come in contact with each other if the axle does
walk around.
Moving the seal inboard by welding plates in the centersection to block
off the axle tubes and provide a place for the seals is possible and I
have a spare housing to try this on.
I have an ARB in the front now because when I broke my last axle I broke
my Softlocker as well
and after six months I haven't broken a Birfield yet but I still carry
two spares because it's only a matter of time.
Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
DAVE MEADOR
85 4RUNNER
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:15:13 -0600
From: Park Owens
Subject: Re: Birfield joints on straight axle trucks
Dave,
You might want to contact Marlin (209-252-1584) of Crawler fame. He has
just developed a birfield that is significantly stronger than oem.
Cheers,
- --
Park Owens
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:49:34 -0600
From: Tony Bartlett
Subject: Re: Birfield joints on straight axle trucks
Dave, and everyone else with solid axles and birfield problems.
I talked with Marlin a couple of days ago and his new and improved
Marfields look like they are very strong.
He actually took some stock birfields and his modified ones to a well
known company to have them properly tested.
I will not post numbers (do not know if marlin wants them posted) but
you can call and talk with him.
But, if I remember correctly stock birfields at no angle broke axles
with enough torque applied. Then testing them at 30 deg angle they all
broke the birfield.
The Marfield at 30 deg. all broke axles and not the joint.
I do not know if this means that with these new joints we will start
breaking axles or not. Only time will tell.
Marlin went down to Las Vegas for the Glitter Gultch Gamble this
weekend. If they did a tough trail hopefully he got some good on the
trail testing.
Warn industries makes a birfield eliminator for the fj-40 (some people
on the list have these). I do not know if they would be compatable with
the trucks or not. I hear it replaces the birfield with a u-joint(new
axles also) and also replaces the spindle.
I will get some Marfields as soon as I can, but with the price I will
have to save up some money for them.
If anyone calls Marlin before I do again ask if you can post the numbers
of the test for everybody.
Toyota Tony
http://www.digitalpla.net/~offroader
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:20:11 -0700
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: Re: Birfield joints on straight axle trucks
> whats the price$$? for the marfields and is that what's MARLIN is calling
> them?
Marlin is calling them "Ultimate Birfields" and they will be stamped with
that name. The will cost $150 each exchanged. They will fit '69-'89
Landcruisers, '79-'85 Pickups and 4Runners. I plan to use a set in my solid axle swap! I talked
to him a week ago agout them and he said that he is real happy with how they are
working so far.
Chris Geiger 93 4Runner http://www.off-road.com/~geiger
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:51:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Luke P Miller
Subject: Re: Birfield joints on straight axle trucks
Are you sure about this price? He told me $85 a piece exchange, or he'd
drop the price to $75 a piece if you buy two ($150). If each one is now
$150, that price has really gone up! He is just welding a hardened ring
around the outer lip of the joint, making it no longer serviceable, so it
can't cost that much, unless he's having to recoup the cost of the tig
welder he had to buy to do it.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:13:24 -0800
From: "Richard Sheridan"
Subject: Birfields....REQUIRED READING....
Hey guys,
Beware, I'm going to VENT!!!!
This age old question of Birfields vs U-joints....and this is my
Opinion.......
Are birfields strong ...YES!!!..... should you replace them with
U-joints....NO!!!
Please remember, will you most of us are taking a vehicle that was
designed to be run with open diff's and 29" tires and totally
torturing them....changing just about everything we can to suit our
needs...from open diffs too locker's, be they ARB's (my choice)
Detroit's or Lockrights, which in this step alone adding too the
pressure transferred through the the "birfield" or outer CV
joint. Something in any piece of engineering must be a week link, and
if you change the original equation something must give... Changing
from a "open" to a "locked" diff is a big change in the equation,
compound that with the new lower gears you put in or the Marlin
Crawler, and you rewrite the whole thing.....add bigger tires, and
the force you place upon this part are probably 100 time what they
were designed to handle, ....
let me ask this who out there has see a birfield failure on a rig
with gears, crawl box and tires,and OPEN DIFFS? any one? let me
know, I'm curious....
Question # 2.... who out there has seen a failure of a U-joint on a
say Dana 44 with gears, tires, with Open Diffs? on the second, I have
seen many.... are my experiences the same or different than yours?
It has been my personal experience, in my rig, for those of you who
are unfamiliar with it, it is a......'85 p/u 22re 5spd with about
300,000miles on it... 4.88's, ARB's, Marlin, OME rear springs, Downey
front, 33x12.5mud TA's, optimas, duel Warn's,compressor w/ tanks,
lights, etc.... and its my daily driver, the kind of wheeling I do is
tough....I have spent 50 day's on the trail this year, in places like
Moab, Johston Valley, The Blackhills, and in my own Back yard, B.C.
In the 4 years, since I have been wheeling "HARD", I have broken 2
Birfields, and I chalk this up to my inexperience at the time. I was
told , and prepared for this possibility, during the installation of
my ARB's, Gears, and Crawler, and even explained in what situation
they are vulnerable.... and with that Knowledge, I still preceded to
try and pull a tree off the trail in reverse, with the wheels turned
and ARB's locked.... Now that was stupid "POP" and there goes my
first one.....I still didn't quite understand...... the second one
went about a month later, in a situation where I had zero traction,
and was trying to climb up hill, slid off the trail, and turned hard
right to OVER compensate and was HARD on the power ...... do these
types of situations sound familiar?... well both of these happened to
me within 2 months of my discovering LOCKERS... and in the 3 1/2
years since then I have not had a recurrence of this failure....but,
I have seen many failures of U-joints....
The whole point of this note, is to help people understand the
makeup of their rigs, we drive Toyotas, because, they are Strong,
Reliable, and Well Built, we leave in Toyota axles and t-cases, and
engines for those reasons......I have learned a lot about my rig in
the last five years, how to drive it how to work with it to get where
I want too go, and back. What it's Strength and Weaknesses are,
something you have to do with any vehicle, be it a Mini Truck,
Cruiser, Jeep, Mog, or Hummer......
I think we have one of the finest bases for building a tough 4x4,
with reliability and ruggedness, and if the situation arrives, parts
availability..... break a birfield, and and you can find one to
replace it, your buddy is probably has one he'll lend you, or one's
not far off.... Brake a modified enclosed outer U-joint, And I hope
you have a spare assembly, because the likely hood of you taking out
the Yok is HIGH, and the whole assembly will need to be replaced, and
custom parts are expensive, and usually not close by........
IE: birfield, With axle shaft, $50.-$75. each side
Warn Birfield to u-joint replacement kit approximately $300. each side
I do a lot of hard wheeling, not as hard as some, but I definitely
don't baby My Rig....
Well I hope this helps someone, otherwise it's all a waste of time
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share my view, If yours is
different, I will defend your right to share it, even if I personally
disagree....
feel free to respond directly to me and be vocal....
Richard, aka, The Crazy Canadian...
HAPPY WHEELING TO ALL, AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT...
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:19:54 EDT
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Re: Birfields....REQUIRED READING....
wsmuir@islandnet.com writes:
> Nope, I say this is fair. Buying a new Birfield is a last resort. It
> is even cheaper to buy a parts truck in some cases.
How can you call that fair? So I guess you can compare Mosser replacement
axles to parts yard specials?
Anyway, unless someone has heard of the Warn kit breaking, I would call it
money well spent. Sure a used birfield may only be $75, but you still have
the same problem as before.
Another poster said something about learning to deal with the birfield
problem. WHY? One of the reasons I am into this sport is to make something
better. I don't plan to deal with problems as common place. I plan to figure
out a better way to do it.
Just a few other things to chew on...
There was a Dana 44 design that used a closed knuckle - I beleive that used a
standard joint.
If birfields are not worth replacing/fixing/redesigning, why do they seem to
break all the time, and why is Marlin spending his time trying to make them
better?
I LOVE discussions...
David
DRM033@aol.com
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:24:28 -0800
From: "Richard Sheridan"
Subject: Birfields....in a straight axle Truck....
Hey guys...
It's great too see everyone, with their oppinions coming out of the
woodwork...LOL...... But it seems to me, everyone is looking for a
solution for a problem, and not the problem.......Sometimes the
solution lies with the "PROBLEM", and not with in just another a
solution..... meaning I know how too break these things, and can do
so on command, I have learned where they are weak, and avoid
these situation, and NOT THE OBSTACLES, these situations are found
on..... I Think Mr Birfield Breaker himself Park Owens will vouch for
me on this..... I have had the pleasure of wheeling with him on a
couple occassions, and he Knows, I DON"T AVOID things..... he (Park)
and a bunch of other guys have mentioned "MARFIELDS" or "the ULTIMATE
BirfIELDS" and while this is a Huge step forward, in durability, and
Marlin's ingenuity, ( My hat goes off too him, awesome products from
an AWESOME GUY....)...... I still think we need to look within for the
answer to the breakage, and look at the way we drive...... I do, know
from experience some situations are un avoidable, and SHIT HAPPENS,
fix it and move on.....I myself plan on upgrading to the "ULTIMATE
BURFIELDS", because of the wheeling I do, and I love doing what I
can to avoid TRAIL HASSELS, and there is NO doubt in my mind, after
talking to the guys,while on the trail in Rubathon with these
upgraded birfields, they are stronger.....and If we can improve, we
should, I just REALLY BELIVE THAT SWAPPING TO A U-JOINT KIT
IN THE FRONT AXLE IS A BAD IDEA....
BUT THIS IS MY $.02 WORTH....
HAPPY WHEELING...
RICHARD...
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:20:45 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Birfields....REQUIRED READING....
Richard Sheridan that Crazy Canadian wrote:
>Are burfields strong ...YES!!!..... should you replace them with
>U-joints....NO!!!
snip lots of his input on Birfield joints.......
I broke my first Birfield last year after about 12 years of wheeling
my truck. I think it broke from long-term fatique as I wasn't stressing
it drastically when it let go. In my opinion, the Birfields are of respectable
strength and with Marlin's upgrade now available can be made even
stronger.
If I were starting from scratch or doing a live axle swap on an IFS truck
I might consider using a Dana 44, but I see no real advantage to swapping
from a Toy live axle to a Dana 44 if you're expecting to see a big increase
in front axle strength.
I have to agree with David.....I can't recall seeing a 4 cyl vehicle snap a
Dana 44 front.
I did however see a lot of broken 44s this past Saturday. I went out to spectate
the first run of a new trail here east of Phoenix. Four well-equipped vehicles
entered the trail and four of four broke (and were repaired to continue on).
All had 44 front axles.......
The Chevy 383 powered CJ5 snapped a front stub axle which also splintered
and crack the Warn hub. The 304 powered CJ5 and 4.0 litre Wrangler each
blew a front axle u-joint. And, the 360 powered Scout snapped a ball joint
and the whole knuckle parted from the axle housing. None of these vehicles
were being abused and romped upon, but each were trying to climb big, nasty
rocks when the broke.
Total progress for the 9 hour day.......about 1/2 mile of hard trail.......
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:29:30 -0700
From: Scott Muir
Subject: Re: Birfields....REQUIRED READING....
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:19:54 EDT
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Re: Birfields....REQUIRED READING....
>wsmuir@islandnet.com writes:
>>
>> Nope, I say this is fair. Buying a new Birfield is a last resort. It
>> is even cheaper to buy a parts truck in some cases.
>How can you call that fair? So I guess you can compare Mosser replacement
>axles to parts yard specials?
Easy. You break a Birfield, it will either cost you $75 for the used
replacement or $600 for the conversion. If you can't find a used
birfield, then you are looking at a new one which is 1/2 and order of
magnitude more than a used one, but if the question is 'How do I fix
this' its fair.
>Anyway, unless someone has heard of the Warn kit breaking, I would call it
>money well spent. Sure a used birfield may only be $75, but you still have
>the same problem as before.
There's a big 'it depends' here. This applies to the Marfield too. By
doing this, you are re-locating the weakest point in your drivetrain to
another location. God help you if its something like the chain in your
transfercase.
One note of the Marfield. Judging by the sounds of things here, the
Marfield only solves the outer-race failures... Probably moving the
break to the inner-race which is less prone to fail (i've heard)
>Another poster said something about learning to deal with the birfield
>problem. WHY? One of the reasons I am into this sport is to make something
>better. I don't plan to deal with problems as common place. I plan to figure
>out a better way to do it.
Your truck gets sick, you make it all better... 8)
You are totally justified in feeling this way. However, you should
include 'driving skill' in your analysis of truck weak points. If you
don't wanna do that, buy and Abrams.
>Just a few other things to chew on...
>There was a Dana 44 design that used a closed knuckle - I beleive that used a
>standard joint.
Someone told me a Jeep Grand Cherokee has a setup like this, but I can't
confirm it.
>If birfields are not worth replacing/fixing/redesigning, why do they seem to
>break all the time, and why is Marlin spending his time trying to make them
>better?
That's inflammatory. They don't break all the time. Some other things
to consider back...
In a straight line, which is stronger?
If either breaks, what kind of collateral damage can you expect to have?
I've heard stories. Snapping a U/J spider doesn't necessarily keep you
in the $30 price range. One guy in our club lost everything from the
ball joints out. (ka-ching!) You are also prone to losing both spiders
if you have a locker. and you are also prone to destroying the yolks
when they smash into each other after the spider lets go. So do the
math.
>I LOVE discussions...
That's what this is here for. Me too though.
S.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:10:24 -0700
From: "jskaggs"
Subject: Marfields the scoop
I was at Marlin's yesterday and I got the scoop on the new Marfields. These
new Marfields are his second design. The first edition he tig welded a
hardened steel ring to the face of the birfield and did some testing, he
found that the cage would still break below the ring. The second edition
has the ring welded on the face and he also added weld around the outside
about 1 1/2" - 2" down the sides of the birfield.
This process takes him about 2.5 hrs. for each birfield. The Bench Tests
that he has done show that an axle will break before the marfield does. He
also tested them at a 30 degree angle and the axle still broke.
I asked him what would break now in the real world and he said that most
likely the tire would spin before anything broke, but he also said that the
things that could now break would be the hub, ring gear, pinion and that
type of stuff. He doesn't think that the axle would break in the real
world.
The prices for the new Marfields are as follows.
UM-1 Year Type Price ea.. Core Warranty
68-75 6-spline drum $79.00 $50.00 6 months with one
Landcruiser exchange free replacement
3.260 OD or
3.318 OD
=================================================================
UM-2 76-78 Disc Brake $179.00 $100.00 6 months with one
Landcruiser free replacement
30-spline
3.315 OD
=================================================================
UM-3 79-85 Disc Brake $179.00 $100.00 6 months with one
Pickup/4Runner free replacement
30-spline
79-89 Landcruiser
3.400 OD
=================================================================
UM-4 79-85 Disc Brake $279.00 --- 12 months with one
Pickup/4Runner No Core free replacement
30-spline
79-89 Landcruiser
3.400 OD
=================================================================
UM-4HD 79-85 Disc Brake $329.00 --- 12months with one
Pickup/4Runner No Core free replacement
30-spline
79-89 Landcruiser
3.400 OD
=================================================================
This info is off of his flyer, there is more legal stuff.
John Skaggs
Member of TLCA# 5560, High Sierra Toyota's, Toys 4 Fun and Blue Ribbon
Coalition
thunder90@msn.com
Visalia, CA
85 4Runner
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:05:49 -0600 (CST)
From: davekimm@webtv.net (david meador)
Subject: Birfields
I've broken a bunch of berfields ( 7 ). I've found cracked joints while
servicing the knuckles which would indicate that they crack when your
wheeling it hard and fail later when your just cruising something easy.
My experience with this problem tend to backup what Marlin found while
testing his Marfield. If you keep the wheels straight while applying
power you won't brake a joint. I was running a Detroit locker in the
front end when I broke all the joints. When I broke the last one I also
took out the Detroit so it was replaced with an ARB.
Haven't broken any since then. The trick is not to activate the ARB
unless you can keep your wheels fairly straight. I'm sure the fact that
I run 36" swamper sx's has a little to do with the high failure rate I
had.
Dave Meador
85 4Runner
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 17:01:21 -0700
From: Park Owens
Subject: Re: Warn Birfield Eliminator?
Jay Kopycinski wrote:
>
> A friend just told me he heard Warn is coming out with a Toyota
> Birfield eliminator kit. Anybody heard of this yet? I guess it's
> supposed to replace your Birfield with a Spicer u-joint setup.
>
> I still think the Marfield is gonna be the better way to go.......
>
> Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Jay,
I'm running the Warn kit in my '76 Land Cruiser after breaking numerous
Birfields. I was an orginal beta tester for Warn and have put the kit
through its paces. It has held up well on the backing and turning
required on some of our 4+ trails here in South Dakota. We have another
fellow running Marlin's Marfields and he also hasn't had a problem with
breakage.
The Warn kit is very slick and installs in a couple of hours after the
rotor opening is machined a little larger. If there is any interest, I
would certainly be happy to answer any questions.
Park
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:26:27 EST
From: DRM033@aol.com
Subject: Re: FW: Marfield, Birfield and other options?
RBeal@RFTechnologies.com writes:
> Don't forget that the warn kit cost a lot more and there are more
> Marfields in use now so that's why we hear of more breaking, there are
> more out there now.
does it really cost more?
First off you have to compare apples to apples. So, take the cost of 2 "new"
Marfields (not used ones, since the Warn shafts are new also - only fair)
Marfield:
$339 each for a total of $678
That includes a 1 year replacement quarantee only for the joint, not the
shafts.
You get 2 complete shaft units as well as inner axle seals.
Warn:
I am not really sure of the Warn kit price, but we will say it is around $800.
You get both inner & outer shafts, U joints, all necessary seals, as well as
their premium hubs. You have to machine the rotor a little. They offer a
true lifetime warranty on their shafts (the do not cover splayed yokes due to
joint failure though). Typically, if you do need to replace a shaft they are
only about $100 each.
So, if you figire in the hubs, we are talking only about a $100 difference
here - not as bad as it may seem. I like the fact that Warn will sell
replacement axles so cheap, where if you snap a Marfield after 1 year you are
out another $339.
Anyway, just my thoughts. Anyone know if a Warn kit has been killed yet?
Oh yeah, if any of this is wrong, feel free to correct it. I just got off the
phone w/ Warn, and they are sending me the instructions that come with their
kit.
David
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