Front Hubs
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:44:37 -0700
From: cruiser@akcache.com (Whatley,Mark)
Subject: Hubs
To: tlcal@tlca.org
Clipped from previous post...
"My 1980 40 has started leaking lube out of the left hub. The hubs are
"ISACO"??? My guess they are stock. Any thoughts on rebuilding these or
should I replace with after market hubs? The dialog on this list has
been very informative. Bravo!, to those whom make this possible. "
The problem with your hub is VERY probably not a problem with your
hub :)
The lubricant in and behind your hub is (or should be) grease, not gear
lube. If you're seeing fluid leaking out from the hub area, the most likely
cause is gearlube from the axle housing passing therough the axle tube seal
and mixing with the grease. This will cause the oil in the grease to seperate
|from the matrix which suspends it, and it will then find it's way (along with
the original gear lube from the axle) out past seals and joints which are not
intended to contain fluids.
You will need to pull the hub assembly and axle, and replace the axle
seal (it's only about a $5-$6 item). You will also want to replace all of the
grease in the hub. You might as well replace the gear lube in the axle at the
same time.
Before you assume that it is simply a worn out axle seal (and before
you disassemble the hub) check and see if your knuckle bearings are worn and
loose. This is highly likely if the milage is anywhere over about 75,000. If
the rig has seen hard use it is even more so. If the bearings are worn, they
will allow the entire hub assembly to shift, and the seal... won't...
The easiest way to check the knuckle bearings, is to jack the tire
off the ground, and see if you can gently shift it inward at the top. If the
tire shifts in relation to the rotor, it's worn wheel bearings. If the tire
and rotor shift together in relation to the axle housing, then it's knuckle
bearings.
If these are worn, DON'T ignore them. And if one side is worn, you'd
better check the pther as well. Look for slop in your wheel bearings too.
It's a lot simpler to go ahead and replace them while you have it apart
anyway...
Some other symptoms of knuckle bearing problems are, cupping and
assymetrical tire wear, erratic and/or loose steering which can not be
explained by worn steerring linkages, leakage of fluid from the back side of
the wheel or hub, and in extreme cases, a wheel that sits at a noticable
angle (inclined inward at the top)
There really isn't much you can due to the lockout hubs other than
keep the grease clean, and maybe replace the gaskets. And there is nothing
gained by going to an aftermarket unit. The Stock hubs are as strong and
dependable as anything else out there.
Mark.....
.....If it's not a Cruiser, it's just a jeep.....
.....Don't even say "SUV".....
------------------------------
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Date: 18 Apr 1997 07:46:09 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: I need new lock out hubs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 7:35 AM
OFFICE MEMO I need new lock out hubs Date: 4/18/97
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>I am about to replace the lock outs on my truck. I was considering Warn, but
>Downey wants $170. A local parts store wants $85 for Superwinch hubs. Any
>thoughts on this subject? Better prices?
Are you talking about a live axle truck? If so, I have a few comments.
Front live axles almost always seem to leak some amount of gear lube
past the inner axle seals and it eventually finds its way into the hub
body. One nice thing about the stock Aisin hubs is that they contain
the grease and gear lube in the hub body quite well. I ran AVM (now
Superwinch) hubs for a number of years and I didn't like the fact that
the outer portion is not sealed as well as the stock ones. When my
axles seals started leaking they would ooze lube out onto the wheels.
Jim......any special tricks to keep the inner axle seals sealed more
effectively for a long period of time? Have tried polishing the
axle shaft a bit where it meets the seal............
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:54:56 -0500
From: "Dean Hufstedler"
Subject: I need new lock out hubs
To:
When my auto hubs went out (had some thing to do with previous owner not
using 4 wheel for like 5 years) I got the the Warn hubs from Downey. They
are all metal as opposed to most other hubs which have some plastic parts.
Even at $170 the heavy-duty Warn hubs were much less than factory Toyota
hubs. I've had them since September and they have performed flawlessly.
Josh Hufstedler
84 X-tra Cab SR5
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:14:04 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: I need new lock out hubs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
David wrote:
"I am about to replace the lock outs on
my truck. I was considering Warn, but
Downey wants $170. A local parts store
wants $85 for Superwinch hubs. Any
thoughts on this subject? Better prices?"
Warn makes 3 hubs for the Toyota; Downey only sells the premium ones, but
there are some with plastic parts, etc., that are a lot cheaper. Not that
I'd have plastic hubs on my truck.
I'm very happy with the Warn premium hubs I have. They're a lot easier to
turn, seem to be of a better and more durable design than the Aisins, and,
best of all, eliminate the cone washers completely.
Desert Rat in Arizona has the best prices on Warn hubs. I got mine for a
shade more than $100.
Good luck,
- Nick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:28:23 -0400
From: WartHog
Subject: I need new lock out hubs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-04-18 00:38:40 EDT, you write:
>
> >
> > Why are you swapping out the stock ones?
> > __
> > Jonathan Albrecht
>
> The stock ones are wore out. The dials don't want to turn. One of the
> spring balls has been replaced by a small rock (those thingas are hard to see
> when you drop one). The gears are rusted and pitted. The outer seal is
> shot.
>
> I guess I could rebuild these, but I might as well start over with something
> new.
>
Agreed
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Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:13:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Toy4x4s@aol.com
Subject: manual locking hubs..
To: toy4x4@tlca.org
My .02 on the stock manual ones... My 88 4Runner came with the auto locking
ones... I never really felt comfortable with them... i like the idea of going
out and turning the knob to KNOW if I'm free or locked... So one fine day,
one of my auto hubs broke... I figured this out because I could no longer
engage 4wd. Both hubs have to be locked to be in 4wd. So I went down to the
local boneyard and got a complete set of the stock Aisn manual hubs for
$65. You need a couple of inexpensive parts to make the conversion from
factory auto to manual. I think the Aisn hubs are just about indestructible.
I have never blown one, nor have I seen one blow... We have really done some
gnarly trails with our 85 Toy 4x4 (may it rest in peace) and have never had
any hub problems of any sort! i also like them because they don't stick out
too far... I really don't know if on trucks/4runners that the aftermarket
hubs stick out further, but I can tell you on a FJ-40 the Warn ones are
really out there... Both of my FJ's have Selectro hubs...
June Bennett
TLCA 2942
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Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:03:24 -0700
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: WARN vs AISIN hubs
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
Stay with AISIN which is, IMHO, stronger than any after-market. On my last
trip through the Rubicon, I saw 2 Warn hubs whose outer case exploded (on
J**ps).
Looking at the rubble , they looked like pot-metal
To: TOY4X4@TLCA.ORG
From: rmurray@gvn.net (Rick Murray)
Subject: TruTrac or Detroit Locker
l. I carry a spare AISIN hub,
obtained from a wrecking yard for $10, but I will likely never need it.
##################################################################
Rick Murray 84 Toyota 4Runner SR5
rmurray@gvn.net stock 22R motor ; 3" ProComp Lift
http://www.gvn.net/~rmurray/ 8" steel rims; 33" BFG M/T
Rancho Cordova, Ca. 4.88 gears; Marlin TCase #67 ; TRD LSD
##################################################################
------------------------------
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Date: 21 Apr 1997 10:47:39 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: WARN vs AISIN hubs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 10:47 AM
OFFICE MEMO WARN vs AISIN hubs Date: 4/21/97
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>All this about lock out hubs and me worrying about having to buy new ones: I
>forgot about the parts truck I have that still has them on it. I hope that
>hubs from an 86 will work on my 90. Both are IFS, so I should be OK.
Should work fine. Jack's old '86 Aisins are on our '91 4Runner.......well
at least one is. We won't talk about the other one I had to buy because
one of the ones Jack sent me flew off somewhere on the street because
I forgot to tighten up the outer hub body bolts.....nope, won't mention
that......sheeesh.....ever feel like an idiot?
I do know the live axle hubs will not work on the IFS trucks. The sliding
sleeve is a bit too long.
_______________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
_______________________________________
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 4 Jun 1997 09:18:00 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Hubs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:41 AM
OFFICE MEMO Hubs Date: 6/4/97
Chris Austin wrote:
>I was also woundering about my hubs, front left makes rattling noise and
>front right is impossible to turn, I think something is worped or bent.
>If I replace them is it possible to switch from manual to automatic.
The only auto hubs I know of are the factory Toyota ones. When I
checked many years ago, they want about $240 per hub.
>And what are the disadvantages of having a auto hub??
Auto hubs are not nearly as reliable as the manual hubs.
>And is a auto hub the kind where you push a button from inside the
>truck?
The button actually engages the front axle and/or transfer case,
depending on vehicle and system. The hubs lock in when the front
axles start turning.
The Toyota ADD systems don't use "auto" hubs, but instead use
a "fixed" hub that is always locked.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: 4 Jun 1997 09:24:29 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Hubs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 8:40 AM
OFFICE MEMO Hubs Date: 6/4/97
msteindl@logicon.com (Matthew Steindl) wrote:
> I've got an '85 xtracab w/ automatic hubs that are not playing very
> well these days. My question is, are they easy to rebuild, or should I
> replace the whole assembly? If replacing them is the way to go, should
> I stay with the automatic hubs or go to manual? Is it a direct swap
> from auto to manual hubs?
You can tear them apart and clean and grease them, but often something
(springs, etc.) inside break. The Toyota dealer told me they sell no
replacement parts, only replacement hubs ($$$).
Swapping to manual hubs is easy. You will need another pair of the
big hex locking nuts and a pair of star-type lock washers to do
the conversion.
Warn and Superwinch both make good hubs, though the Superwinch
seals are not the greatest and allow any gear lube that has leaked
into the hub housing to ooze out past the end of the hub.
If you can find a pair for reasonable cost, the stock manual hubs
(Aisin) are well made and seal well too.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:20:14 -0700
From: nickkrest@batnet.com (Nick Krest)
Subject: 85 Front hubs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Christopher B Knight wrote:
"I am on the verge of replacing the bearings,
seals, hubs, etc in the fornt axle of my 85
truck and would like to get some opinions on
what kind of locking hubs are available and
how they perform. I inquired to the cost of
factory replacement hubs and with a cost of
$200+ a piece I don't think it's worth it."
Definitely not. You can go a couple ways here. Downey sells a hub
rebuilding kit made by Tod Industries of Agoura, CA, for about $40. This is
basically new seals and lube. It's not hard to rebuild them; you just have
to take some care with all the small parts. You will also probably have to
sand the hub body down a bit with emery paper, as freshly rebuilt ones seem
a bit tight and hard to turn.
Your other option is to go with aftermarket hubs. There are a bunch out
there, but I believe Warn makes the best ones. They make them at 3 price
points; I opted for the Premium hubs (all metal construction). They take
about a half hour to install and are really reliable. Desert Rat in Arizona
sells them for about $110; everybody else, about $150.
As for the rest of your rebuild, you'll be shocked at what replacement
wheel bearings cost! A good time to join TLCA and get your 25% discount
from Stevens Creek Toyota.
Good luck,
- Nick
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:54:16 -0400
From: john skaggs
Subject: 85 Front hubs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
> David
> DRM033@aol.com
> Tell me about it. You know those little metal balls that are spring loaded
> to "click" the hub into position?
What metal balls? :-} There weren't any metal balls in my left hub when I
took it apart, so it went back together like that. Then I get to the
right side and I find these little metal balls. DOH! Where did those
come from? Oh well the left hub worked fine without the balls before
and it still works fine now. Maybe when I go back in there to replace
the leaky inner seals I'll replace the little balls.
John Skaggs
TLCA# 5560
85 4Runner
Akron, Ohio
John.Skaggs@ab.com
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jun 1997 09:09:43 -0700
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: 85 Front hubs
To: "Toyota 4x4 List"
Subject: Time: 9:11 AM
OFFICE MEMO 85 Front hubs Date: 6/26/97
DRM033@aol.com wrote:
>Tell me about it. You know those little metal balls that are spring loaded
>to "click" the hub into position? Gone.
Just go to your local hardware store and buy a ball bearing of the correct
size. Cost......about 5 pennies.
________________________________________
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY) '91 4Runner
Gilbert, AZ
ryna10@email.sps.mot.com
http://www.netzone.com/~jayk
Arizona Lo-Rangers 4WD Club TLCA #3243
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:26:51 -0700
From: James Brink
Subject: Front Hubs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Chris Caldwell wrote:
>
> I'm hoping Jim, or Chris or someone could possibly help me with a
> question about the Aisin hubs on my Tacoma. I've noticed that one side,
> when locking and unlocking, makes noticeably more moise than the other
> side. It's sorta a scrapping sound. Is this a sign that the hub needs to
> be greased?
Chris,
Does this sound occur when moving the dial on the hubs or when the
vehicle is first moved after the hubs have been locked?
The hubs require very little grease. Too much will inhibit their
operation.
If it occurs when turning the knob, the little ball bearing may have
fallen out or the pawl that locks the spring to the clutch hub may be
broken. It is easy to remove the cover for a closer inspection. Remove
the six 10MM hex bolts that surround the hub cover. You can now take the
cover off of the actual locking hub assembly. Inspect the innards of the
cover/mechanism for broken or missing parts. The ball bearing is located
on the handle side. You can also actuate the hub by turning it but keep
pressure on the spring or the whole mess will come apart on you. Watch
all of the parts as you move the handle. You might want to place
matchmarks on the hub cover/hub to realign the cover for reassembly. The
little "ears" on the pawl, located on the hub cover, must be indexed
into the hub body correctly.
If you hear the noise when the truck moves forward after engaging the
hubs, there is possibly an internal problem with the inner hub to axle
shaft components.
Is your truck still under warranty?
Hope this helps some.
- --
Jim Brink--Toyota/ASE Certified Technician
Manhattan Beach, CA
brinkjm@earthlink.net '86 Std. Bed/32"BFG A/T
************************************************************************
TLCA# 6184/ Friends of the Mojave Road (FOMR) / MRVMA-DESERT EXPLORERS
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 21:03:10 -0700
From: Scott Wilson
Subject: Loose hubs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Terry & Sandy Johnson wrote:
>
> A year and a half ago I replaced my ADD hubs with Warn manual hubs.
> Anyone have problems with them coming loose?
>
> I was wheeling today at Hollister Hills and I was hearing a clicking
> noise coming from my right side. I thought at first a pebble had got
> inside a wheel. Later after reaching the top of truck hill I got out to
> look closer. My right hub was loose. The clicking noise was a nut that
> had come off and was trapped between the sleeve over the hub and the hub
> face. Anyone else have any similar experiences?
Yes, I had the same problem until I replaced the washers with locking
washers. They haven't loosened up since. Before they'd loosen up after
only a couple hours on the trail.
Scott
- --
_____
/_/_|_\__ Scott Wilson
| _ _ : Santa Clara, CA
*/_\---/_\' http://www.off-road.com/~swilson
(_) (_)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 22:00:03 -0700
From: Brandon Miller
Subject: Loose hubs
To: Toy4x4@tlca.org
Terry & Sandy Johnson wrote:
>
> A year and a half ago I replaced my ADD hubs with Warn manual hubs.
> Anyone have problems with them coming loose?
>
> I was wheeling today at Hollister Hills and I was hearing a clicking
> noise coming from my right side. I thought at first a pebble had got
> inside a wheel. Later after reaching the top of truck hill I got out to
> look closer. My right hub was loose. The clicking noise was a nut that
> had come off and was trapped between the sleeve over the hub and the hub
> face. Anyone else have any similar experiences?
>
> Terry Johnson
> santer@ix.netcom.com
YES! Call Warn and tell them, they will send you out some lock tabs and
stuff to help, my dads did this all the time.
- --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brandon Miller email: sac78483@saclink.csus.edu
Sacramento, CA millerb@gaia.ecs.csus.edu
url:
http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~millerb
TLCA #6013
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:57:55 -0600
From: Jack Alford
Subject: junk right?
To:
Brandon Miller wrote:
>unlocked the hubs. I drained the oil the next day and there wasn't any
>metal? I pulled the hub on the side that wasn't turning and everything
>seemed ok. Before I pull the third member I am wondering what I should
>look for, any ideas?
It sounds like the hub was simply 'frozen' and the spring inside it did
not force the splines over to lock the hub. I'd jack up the front end
and spin the front driveshaft by hand with the tcase in neutral with the
hubs locked to see if I really had a problem before I stripped down the
front end to check on a problem I might not have ... when lock rights
are going out they start popping continually, even when driving straight
... then with one loud and final pop they're usually done for ... seen
it happen lots of times ...
- jack
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Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:05:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: Re: 4wd w/o hubs locked.
> I noticed on the visor card on my truck (89 p/u) it says _NEVER_
> put the transfer case in 4hi or 4lo without locking the hubs. Why?
The hub was not designed to have the axle shaft spin sepratly from the hub
unit. The more it spins the faster the brass bushing wears out. However
driving for short distances with the hubs unlocked and in 4WD will not
hurt them at all. Now don't go out and put different sized tires for the
front, unlock the hubs in 4WD and then drive across the US. The bushings
would probably wear out about half way. The key is understanding at what
time the bushing gets wear. The bushing is only in use when the front
shafts are turning and the hubs are unlocked.
In 2wd with the hubs unlocked, the hub is open and the bushing on the back
side does not move. In 2WD with the hubs locked the bushing still stays put
because the hub is turning the front shafts at exact speed as the wheels.
But in 4WD with the hubs unlocked the front shafts turn at the same speed
as the rear wheels and when turning or driving with different size tires
this is a different speed then the front.
Real World testing: I have often used 4lo without locking the hubs when
driving in tight locations because it's so easy to drive and maneuver in
low range. I have also driven many trail miles in low range without
locking the hubs (rear lockers are great). I reasently replaced a hub that
I hit a few too many rocks with. The bushing inside the hub had no play at
all and still worked as new. That was about the only part that was still
in good condition, the gears inside were worn to the point of being loose.
So don't worry at all about using your low range with hubs unlocked once
in a while, just don't drive all day like that.
Chris Geiger 93 4Runner http://geiger.mcl.ucsb.edu/offroad.html
BTW toss out the visor card, it's written by people that have never driven
off-road.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:35:56 +0000
From: "Jay Kopycinski"
Subject: Manual Hubs
Ed.Wong@astramerck.com wrote:
>If im at the junkyard looking at a box full of OEM Yota/Asin manual hubs
>how do I tell which ones are from the live axles and which ones are from
>the IFS?
Live axle.......30 spline
IFS.................27 spline
Jay Kopycinski '85 Toylet (ROKTOY)
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:34:44 -0800
From: "Kenneth Sigel"
Subject: Re: Manual Hubs
The knob for IFS hubs is flush with the edge of the hub. The pre-IFS hubs
have a knob that sticks out a little and is easier to grab -- by both hands
and rocks.
Ken
---------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:17:33 -0800
From: Chris Geiger
Subject: Re: Hubs breaking?.
> Can anybody else comment on Toyota hubs breaking. I have never seen
> one shatter. Runar has only seen the Warns break. I'd appreciate hearing
> what everyone else has seen.
I noticed the Warn hubs stick out further than the stock ones and seem to be made
out of lighter metal. I had one crack and splinter on me. I also had problems
with free play developing after about 2 years of use. In my axle swap I choose to
use the Toyota hubs. The '85 axle I got had a set of hubs on it that just looked
bad and were hard to turn. I put them in parts cleaner over night and let them
soak removing all the crap that was in and on them. Then I rinsed them in water
(I know but Marlin told me to) Then relubed them. The are now easier to turn then
the Warns ever were and are smaller and less likely to be hit on the trail.
These old hubs still have less play in them than new Warn hubs have. They are
more expensive then the Warn unit but I am sticking to factory hubs for now.
- --
Chris Geiger
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